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Shiloh
04-24-2017, 08:04 PM
For those using a 311041 173 gr FP in a 30-30, what size do they drop at?? Mine barely makes .3095. Accuracy in a NEF Handi-Rifle is iffy.
So far, 4" at 100 yards. I haven't slugged it, but am wondering if .310 or .311 would be better. I may borrow a 311091 RN and try it.
An recommendations??

SHiloh

Blackwater
04-24-2017, 08:22 PM
How many powders have you tried, and how many weights of each powder? You have to find the "sweet spot" in powders and charge wts. to get top accuracy. Have you really wrung that bullet out yet? Also, if you want .310 or larger, a harder alloy will often/usually cast a hair larger in diameter. That's a possibility, too.

All sorts of possibilities. We need more info.

Shiloh
04-24-2017, 08:51 PM
So far 17-18.5 by half grain. 4227. 15.5 4759

Best #'s from 17.5 35.61 Ex S 12.91 SD. 1640fps up to 1783fps. with above loads.
Going to back to 4759 and work up. Gonna try 19 and 19.5 of 4227. I'd like to use a powder I can still get.

Shiloh

GhostHawk
04-24-2017, 09:04 PM
Well if it was me I would do a pound cast first to find out what I am dealing with as far as bore, lead.

I have several handi's, none in .30-30. But you need to know where to start.

From there I would say minimum is 2 thousandths larger. Might have to go to 3 or more.

I have 2 9mm's that keyhole terrible with .356 boolits, do fair with .358 better with .359 and tight groups with .360.

Powder and charge comes into it, as does lube, but start with fit. How can you fit if you don't know what your fitting?

runfiverun
04-25-2017, 01:00 AM
that is true.^^

my 041 easily makes 311 but it ain't a new one.
I size mine to 310 but only 2 of my rifles will shoot it worth beans.
one really likes it [03A3] and the other [30-30] tolerates it, probably because of the load I'm using behind it.

barrabruce
04-25-2017, 01:42 AM
My handi 30-30 mics at 302 and 309.

Had best accuracy with a lee 170 fp with the nose honed a bit fatter just a rub mark on it.

The loverin 150 shoots well in mine.

Also an old 308241 which casts 310 302ish

Mine is a bit butchered and has a loongg throat so I have a longer bearing surface than nose to reach the rifling and stay in the case.

Most problems will disappear after you slug the bore and see what you have.

Ohh mine shoots pretty well good enough.

Hope it helps

runfiverun
04-25-2017, 10:50 AM
the loverign design shoots well in my bolt gun 30-30's too.

dverna
04-25-2017, 11:11 AM
Linotype alloy will give a larger cast diameter (run the mold hot) if you want a quick way to see if a larger bullet will help (assuming you have some alloy on hand). Another way to increase diameter is to powder coat.

The simplest would be to do as you suggested and buy/beg some larger diameter bullets to try out.
.

mdi
04-25-2017, 11:17 AM
I haven't done a lot of cast bullet shooting with my 30-30 Handi, just some .310" Beartooth 160 gr. RNFPs. I had concentrated on pointy full length gas check bullets (Hornady 155 A-Max gave me about 2" @ 100). IIRC I used 3031 and got fair accuracy (3"+). You might be able to find more info here http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/108-h-r-centerfire-rifles.html

RickinTN
04-25-2017, 11:31 AM
I get pretty good results with between 15 and 16 grains of 4227 behind bullets of 170 to 190 grains. I am sizing either .310" or .311" depending on the rifle.
Good Luck,
Rick

Tom W.
04-25-2017, 03:14 PM
Those​ I loaded in my Handi-Rifle were either a 160 gr. Lee or a 168 gr. Ranch Dog gas checked and tumble lubed, or dipped per RD's instructions, and shot as cast. Both were very accurate.

Mk42gunner
04-25-2017, 03:34 PM
I have an original H&R (pre NEF days) Model 158 in .30-30; I did slug the bore, but it has been so long ago that I don't remember what it was. I do remember that I shot boolits sized to .311" through it though.

I don't remember trying anything at more than 25 yards, I was just getting into casting for rifles, for that matter, I think the only molds I had that were at all suitable were the Lee 312-185 and an Ideal SC 313445.

Robert

HangFireW8
04-25-2017, 06:54 PM
For those using a 311041 173 gr FP in a 30-30, what size do they drop at??
My 2009 purchased 311041 first dropped around .3085"->.3090. I needed larger for a rifle with a bore of exactly .310". Silly me was expecting something named 311041 to drop somewhere around .311!

I returned it to Lyman, who lapped it out to, they said, .311". In fact , even with high-tin alloys, tried at different temps, it now dropped at about .3095". I found that this was enough to make my .310 bore pretty accurate, especially when gas checked in a .310" sizer.

All this is academic to you, however, since you don't have my bore or my mold. And until you buy the micrometer and slug your bore, you'll be wasting a lot of time, lead and powder, chasing the wrong variables.

popper
04-25-2017, 07:05 PM
Or you could beagle the mould and see how it works.

Shiloh
04-25-2017, 07:05 PM
Well if it was me I would do a pound cast first to find out what I am dealing with as far as bore, lead.

I have several handi's, none in .30-30. But you need to know where to start.

From there I would say minimum is 2 thousandths larger. Might have to go to 3 or more.

I have 2 9mm's that keyhole terrible with .356 boolits, do fair with .358 better with .359 and tight groups with .360.

Powder and charge comes into it, as does lube, but start with fit. How can you fit if you don't know what your fitting?


I was told .308. I just pounded a .310 slug through it, measures .308.
I neck sized the last brass and will try that. There are some .311 cast bullets on the net that weigh 160 gr. That may be a possibility as well.

Shiloh

Shiloh
04-25-2017, 07:10 PM
Silly me was expecting something named 311041 to drop somewhere around .311!


Imagine that!! Me too. My 311299 dropped at .310 on a good day. Nose was .298. Sold it. Replaced with a .314299. Drops at .312 with a nose of .302.

Shiloh

Larry Gibson
04-25-2017, 07:14 PM
What alloy are you using?

Larry Gibson

Shiloh
04-25-2017, 07:33 PM
Water dropped wheel weights with this batch Larry.

Shiloh

Larry Gibson
04-25-2017, 09:16 PM
That's why your bullets are under size. Lyman moulds, newer ones the last 10 +yesrs, are cut for #2 alloy. Try adding 2% tin to your WW alloy and you should get close to nominal diameter. Or use the WWs to make #2 alloy which should give you nominal+ diameter. Either way you'll get better bullets.

Larry Gibson

GhostHawk
04-25-2017, 09:22 PM
You'll get there, it ain't rocket science. :)

One way is to use some aluminum tape to make the mold throw a touch bigger. Probably want to push those through a .311 sizing die. From there it is going to depend on how big the die actually throws.

It is a journey, once you have made it from start to finish once you develop a pretty good road map. The next one is easier, having a few more tools helps.

Every step is a learning process.

Hang in there, you can do this.

plainsman456
04-25-2017, 10:49 PM
Size to .310 then try IMR-3031 or RL-15.

These combos have worked in many 30-30's for me and others.

Shiloh
04-26-2017, 04:45 AM
I run through a .310 to lube an seat the GC.

SHiloh

HangFireW8
04-26-2017, 11:27 AM
I was told .308. I just pounded a .310 slug through it, measures .308.
I neck sized the last brass and will try that. There are some .311 cast bullets on the net that weigh 160 gr. That may be a possibility as well.

Shiloh
Neck sizing with jacketed bullet oriented dies leaves the neck the same diameter as FL dies- too small. Jamming the gas check boolit in there may expand the neck but it will also generate a lot of neck eccentricity.

A table roll test will only show wobble in the worst cases.

I agree with the other posters as far as loads, start with a known good powder and load, such as IMR 3031.

Lyman told me on the phone the modern 311041 is made to cast at .309" with Lyman #2, so pursuing .311" with alloys is likely a waste of time.

-HF

Larry Gibson
04-26-2017, 11:52 AM
Lyman says they are intended to be sized .309 as they still suggest .001 over groove.

Shiloh, I've had a long standing offer on Lyman moulds. Ship to me, I test, if it doesn't cast to nominal diameter I buy for what you paid plus shipping. Then you can get an NOE cut for WWs. If it casts to nominal (.311) I return the mould, pay shipping and include test bullets. All at my risk. If you're interested PM for address.

Larry Gibson

Shiloh
04-26-2017, 01:01 PM
Lyman says they are intended to be sized .309 as they still suggest .001 over groove.

Shiloh, I've had a long standing offer on Lyman moulds. Ship to me, I test, if it doesn't cast to nominal diameter I buy for what you paid plus shipping. Then you can get an NOE cut for WWs. If it casts to nominal (.311) I return the mould, pay shipping and include test bullets. All at my risk. If you're interested PM for address.

Larry Gibson

PM Sent.

Shiloh

Yodogsandman
04-26-2017, 01:46 PM
I had a heck of a time getting good accuracy from my H&R M158 30-30 until 35shooter suggested moving the front rest closer to the hinge on the forearm. Much better now with all boolits.

Shiloh
04-26-2017, 02:11 PM
Neck sizing with jacketed bullet oriented dies leaves the neck the same diameter as FL dies- too small. Jamming the gas check boolit in there may expand the neck but it will also generate a lot of neck eccentricity.

A table roll test will only show wobble in the worst cases.

I agree with the other posters as far as loads, start with a known good powder and load, such as IMR 3031.

Lyman told me on the phone the modern 311041 is made to cast at .309" with Lyman #2, so pursuing .311" with alloys is likely a waste of time.

-HF

They get run through a NOE case expander.

Shiloh

Hardcast416taylor
04-26-2017, 04:20 PM
I use a way older 311041 that drops large enough for my sizing .311" and adding the GC. I am using my 50/50 + tin alloy with 3031 powder in my Savage 219 and get decent enough accuracy to make a beer can nervous at 100 yds!Robert

dead dog
04-27-2017, 09:29 PM
The Lee 312-185 sized to. 311 works best in my Handi just using range scrap. An o ring on the forend helped a little to,make sure your scope mount is tight.

guicksylver
04-29-2017, 09:42 AM
http://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/handi-rifle-30-30-win.1119/#post-21246

Shiloh
04-29-2017, 02:44 PM
I want that to be me Quicksilver.

Shiloh
04-29-2017, 02:45 PM
I'm going to try a little tin in the alloy next time.
Thanks Larry Gibson for the correspondence. I have a LEE .312 185 and a LEE .312 155 on the way.

Shiloh

Larry Gibson
04-29-2017, 03:31 PM
If you do mix up some #2 alloy odds are it will spoil you. The difference in the quality of the bullets between straight WWs and #2 is remarkable. You should see a marked improvement in the quality just by adding the tin. Enjoyed the conversation BTW, if you change your mind or just want to see what that 311041 will do w/o you going to #2 let me know. Always glad to help where I can.

Larry Gibson

Shiloh
04-29-2017, 09:39 PM
If you do mix up some #2 alloy odds are it will spoil you. The difference in the quality of the bullets between straight WWs and #2 is remarkable. You should see a marked improvement in the quality just by adding the tin. Enjoyed the conversation BTW, if you change your mind or just want to see what that 311041 will do w/o you going to #2 let me know. Always glad to help where I can.

Larry Gibson

I'll be in touch. I still have the PM messages saved. Thanks Larry.
I'd like to get that mold running. Conversations with other cast boils shooters have said they could not get the newer version, the 311041 running.
They have better reports with the LEE clone of that boolit.

A friend left me a 311291 mold to try. Says it drops a full .310.

Shiloh