How much Copper can I stand ?

[Johnch]

I got a call from a freind that works at a scrap yard
They just got in 5 - 56 lb 25 Kilo ? ingots that are 6% tin, 19% antimony, 6% copper ,1% bismuth , 68% lead ( tested )
Might be getting more

He said they had some weird letters on the ingots , claims they came from Russa originaly


He knows I am always looking for hard lead and WW and he takes care of me
So he put them aside for me to pick up later ,$ .20 a lb , but I have to cast him a few 44 bullets

I figure I can use it to harden up some softer alloys

But I want to use some to cast 22 cal bullets
I figure I can still get a pretty hard alloy if I alloy this suff with WW at 4 or 5 parts WW to 1 part Hard alloy

Will 1.2% or 1% copper be to much for a bottom pour pot ??
Or should I drop down to 6-1 ?


Any clue what this stuff was designed to be used for ??


John

[randyrat]

I had some like that, similar alloy. I think it is call high speed babbit for bearings. i think your good to go with that amount of copper for some High velocity bullets(alloying it in). Sorry i can't help with any recipes, i've never used it before. When you melt that down into ingots, you won't believe how long it will hold heat. I'll sit back and listen maybe i can learn how to use this stuff too.

[runfiverun]

with regular casting equipment about 1% copper is all you will be able to flow
with much more then that your stream will cool too fast and cause your boolits to.
well..basically suck....
6-1 would be perfect for most applications.

[leftiye]

I just made some 1% copper, 10% tin and 89% lead alloy. It casts beautifully. But you have to cover it with crushed charcoal, and run it about 900 degrees to get the "mush" back into solution. If you dilute that babbit 5 to one with pure lead you'll get 1% tin, 1% copper, and 3% antimony, and it'll be harder than hell. My alloy casts BHN 18 and has no antimony. Maybe look at my thread "lead, tin, Copper" for more.

[felix]

That amount of tin is your lifesaver! Tin does help keep the copper in "homogeneous solution" longer. ... felix

[Whitespider]

Shouldn’t it be possible to “freeze” some of the copper out of the alloy? Melt it and than start reducing the heat slowly until the copper “freezes” and forms on top of the melt? Just seems I’ve read somewhere that this is possible.

[Bass Ackward]

I like 1% for bullets up to 400 grains. The heat and time to cavity fill is the key for me. Above 400, I don't want any copper unless I intend to laddle. But I ladle everything from 500 grains up anyway, so I might as well drop that requirement to 400.

[leftiye]

White, Getting the copper out isn't what we want to do! LOL Keeping it in solution (alloyed) is the problem. All you have to do to get it out is to melt it to as low a temp as it will melt at and skim the mush.

[Whitespider]

I guess I did misunderstand, I was under the impression that copper in the alloy was a “bad” thing. But, I’m still pretty new at this “black art” stuff.

Sooooo....... Am I to assume that the copper has a beneficial hardening affect if it can be kept in solution? Is this a temperature thing? I read (from felix’s reply) that the higher tin content helps keep the copper in solution, why is this when tin melts at such a low temperature compared to copper? Or am I missing something else?

Sure would appreciate y’all enlightening me on this “copper” thing ‘cause I have some high tin content babbit with a small (unknown) percentage of copper in it.

Oh... I don't use a bottom pour pot, every thing is poured with a ladle. I'm adding this 'cause I gathered from Bass Ackward's reply that this can make a difference, ....right?

[copdills]

OOOOOOOOOH Chernobyl nuclear power plant beware Hurry send them to me so I can dispose of it properly:bigsmyl2:

[felix]

Spiderman, just start playing with that stuff, and most of your questions will be answered. The various elements in a mixture have completely different melting characteristics. In layman terms, you'd call that synergism between and among the elements in very close proximity. A true alloy, by my definition, is one where there is no "slush" stage whatsoever. Perfectly made lino would be one, and so would radiator lead/solder when made perfectly. In other words, there is prolly no perfectly made alloy in our barns because none of the stuff we gather is what would be called lab grade. So, I use the term mixture for all the crap we use. If it shoots, or can be made to shoot within reason, we want it. Let the labs have their lab quality stuff. ... felix

[Johnch]

He says no more ingots coming in right now , darn
But I took the 5 ingots and about 100 lb of rusty , nasty lookin WW off of his hands tonight
The WW were in buckets full of water and had to have sat around for a while


I will chop up a ingot with the band saw and try 6-1 this week end

Thanks for the input

John

I was out of Lino or any other Hard aloy
So I will have to make due

[runfiverun]

just keep poking and prodding it tll you are happy, then make as much of it as you can and enjoy.

[leftiye]

Felix, Not to start anything here, but what you describe as an alloy is actually a eutectic alloy. Most alloys do have a "slush" phase where some of the alloy is melted and another part is not.

Technically, though your view may be the more accurate as the parts that do melt, and the parts that don't are different compounds (or pure metals) at the slush temperature. A true alloy would seem not to separate regardless of what you do to it (except "cracking" as Docone mentioned).

I have come to see the mush on my 10% tin, 1% copper alloy as a slush stage. Oxygen must be kept off of it also, or it flat won't all melt - ever (oxides that will never reduce by heat alone).

[Bass Ackward]

Oh... I don't use a bottom pour pot, every thing is poured with a ladle. I'm adding this 'cause I gathered from Bass Ackward's reply that this can make a difference, ....right?


I regularly use a mix that has copper in it. I find little complication in using it for bullets up to 400 grains. But I ladle anything over 500 grains no matter what because I can't get a fast enough flow rate to suit me. So at that level, I want a mix that stays liquefied as long as I can get it.

Another factor I suppose is my melting setups. With my pot I am sort of off to the side. The heat sourse is enclosed. When I ladle, it's an exposed heat sourse. Where do you think that I would care about molding with a mix that could be run at the coolest possible temperature?

[felix]

Yep, my definition of an alloy is a mixture that is eutectic. Everything else is just a mixture with no repeatable characteristics. ... felix