One Boolit To Rule Them All, .357 edition

[mcdaniel.mac]

Alright, so I've admitted before that I'm a cast-boolit fraudster in that I do not cast my own. My apartment balcony is not big enough to host a pot, and the first batch of powder coated boolits would be the last thing I ever put in that oven. To that end, there's a few companies that take pity on the cast-impaired among us and offer pre-cast and pre-coated boolits. I'm considering just buying and loading one single projectile to various speeds for .357 to (hopefully) serve all my .357 guns, at least until I can finally afford the cabin in the woods.

The guns in question are a .357 Mag Contender (factory bull barrel, 10" and now threaded), a 5" New Model Blackhawk, 4" GP100, 3" GP100, and 3" Smith&Wesson Model 60. Are all Magnum chambered and aside from the threading on the Contender all are factory and in very good condition. If I were going to load up one Boolit to serve in all of them, what would it be?

I'm thinking something between 158gr and probably south of 180gr, .358 diameter, and certainly polymer coated. I'd like to be able to run subsonic in the Contender using a 9mm suppressor (Osprey or Striker II) at low muzzle pressures if possible.

158gr RNFP? SWC? 180gr HP?

Is this pure folly, or am I a genius? I realize that I'll likely not see ideal accuracy with all of them, but so far all seem to shoot well with Magtech 158gr SWC and Winchester 129gr .38SPL.

[dragon813gt]

I'd have to check the spreadsheet to see how many 35 cal molds I have. But I can tell you the one I cast w/ the most, MP 359-640. Weighs 170 grains as a solid and is the most accurate bullet in all my 357s. I've tried many others but keep coming back to this one. I'm sure others will give you the normal candidates like the 358156 or the Keith bullet.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa39/dragon813gt/Firearms/Reloading/83B54A3A-0E40-4D7A-84E3-78314C4F0AA0-10463-0000057F34BB2501.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/dragon813gt/media/Firearms/Reloading/83B54A3A-0E40-4D7A-84E3-78314C4F0AA0-10463-0000057F34BB2501.jpg.html)

[wbrco]

To the 357 purist, there are only 3 bullets. Hensley #51, Lyman 358156, and the Lyman 358429.

Seriously though, there are many good bullets. However, in my limited research, and practical experience, I would say that the 358156 fits the bill. In softer lead and no GC it does well at target velocities. In harder (coww) with a gc it has the length and bc to be good @ 100 yds and magnum velocities.

There are vendors that will sell you this bullet lubed, with or without a gc.

Why bother with pc if you are going to buy?

[mcdaniel.mac]

To the 357 purist, there are only 3 bullets. Hensley #51, Lyman 358156, and the Lyman 358429.

Seriously though, there are many good bullets. However, in my limited research, and practical experience, I would say that the 358156 fits the bill. In softer lead and no GC it does well at target velocities. In harder (coww) with a gc it has the length and bc to be good @ 100 yds and magnum velocities.

There are vendors that will sell you this bullet lubed, with or without a gc.

Why bother with pc if you are going to buy?
PC (or probably hi-tek) will help keep my suppressor clean on the Contender.

[alfloyd]

I agree with wbrco"
I would say that the 358156 fits the bill.

Lafaun

[Ole Joe Clarke]

Lyman 358156 is the cat's meow.

[Whitespider]

This thread just reminded me I have a Herter's 357173 mold I've never gotten around to using.
Thanks... it ain't like I ain't got enough projects half finished already.

[Murphy]

After 35+ years with the 357 Magnum, given your requirements I would go with the Lyman #358156 as others have suggested.

Given the firearms you listed, it will be a challenge to find 'The One' that does it all. But the Lyman #358156 would indeed be the first runner up.

Murphy

[SteveS]

Pretty much any of the 160+/-gr SWCs will do the job.

My favorite, do anything bullet in .357 is the Saeco #393 162gr SWC GC.

Works with or without the GC. Low to high velocity, accuracy is good.

[rond]

http://missouribullet.com/results.php?pageNum_rsCWResults=4&category=5&secondary=9
I like the #15 for my .357 loads, from mild to wild.

[runfiverun]

I had to look up the 156 everyone was talking about..[shrug]
a 158gr rnfp will cover everything your gonna do.
no fuss no hassles and you can make up one load for all your revolvers and rifle with it.
if you happen to buy a lever gun you can just go shoot it too without making any drama out of the whole thing.

I have like 3 [maybe 4?] 357 type guns and about 15 molds for them.
I have a 5 gallon bucket full of rnfp's ready to load and maybe a 4x4 box of the others at most.
the ammo stash reflects those numbers too.

[mcdaniel.mac]

I'm a little torn between the Keith/SWC and the RNFP. I know several people swear by the Keith bullet for deer and pigs.

Missouri Bullet is likely to be my source unless I find a local caster who wants to make a few bucks on the side.

[Artful]

Geez, your out of the PIT .mac - the Keith/SWC is a great boolit design out to long range and the flat point makes it deadly on impact - the ledge on it cuts a clean hole in paper - it was designed a do all boolit.

RNFP feeds easier many types of guns - speedloader into revolver, leveractions, pumps and semi-autos - it doesn't have the same slap down as a good SWC unless the flat is fairly large - I have a NOE 180 grain WFN that works pretty good on milk jugs (I no longer hunt).

If you want a heavier for subsonic I suggest the RCBS 200 grain or Lee's or NOE's copy of it.

Oh, and trying to get a local caster to make you boolits - you may run afoul of BATFE regs.

[fredj338]

I would look to a 158-160gr FP or SWC for general use in 357mag. A 180gr would be a bit heavy for the snubs.

[marlin39a]

My first mold, 40 yrs ago was the Lyman 358477. I still have it and love it in 38 spl and mild 357 mag. When I want to set the badger loose, it has to be the GC 358156.

[walltube]

macdaniel.mac.

Just because you're in a situation that prevents your pouring the Silver Stream in the Ancient & Honourable fashion, does not make you a "...casting fraudster." Rather, you are, if you are not so aware, doing what many here at C.B have done at one time or another: Improvise, Adapt and Overcome. There is no shame in using commercial "OTC" boolits. Good on Ya. Been there, done that.

Now, on to your question. Lyman 358-156 is a very good choice, IMHuO. There are other designs, but -156 is I'd say, a good one. I have in my inventory several old, long discontinued Lyman .358 cal. pistol designs that were considered in their day the best target and general purpose going. Their utility and purpose have not faded with time. Cast boolit shooter's moods and desires have.

Carry on and good luck.

Yours to the last SP primer,
Wt.

[anothernewb]

In a bit different take, I have a whole lot of the 358429 coated with hi-tek.

[reddog81]

Just get 500 of each type your interested in. It's not that hard to adjust a seating die and a box only costs $35 to $40. Figure out what you and your guns like the best and go from there. There's more load data around the 158 grain range, but it's not terribly hard to find data on the heavier stuff.

I couldn't imagine being stuck with one .357 bullet, but honestly I think I'd choose The Lee 140 SWC. I'm not sure if anyone casts something similar, but it is right in the sweet spot weight wise right between 125 and 158. It is also very accurate and even works in 9mm's

[OS OK]

Didn't you say you wanted to keep the suppressor clean? So you are going to run 'greased casts' through it?

[mcdaniel.mac]

Just get 500 of each type your interested in. It's not that hard to adjust a seating die and a box only costs $35 to $40. Figure out what you and your guns like the best and go from there. There's more load data around the 158 grain range, but it's not terribly hard to find data on the heavier stuff.

I couldn't imagine being stuck with one .357 bullet, but honestly I think I'd choose The Lee 140 SWC. I'm not sure if anyone casts something similar, but it is right in the sweet spot weight wise right between 125 and 158. It is also very accurate and even works in 9mm's
Several of the sellers I've looked at sell 'sample' bags of 25 or 50, so sampling is definitely on the menu. Missouri Bullet has a 100-pack sampler.

Didn't you say you wanted to keep the suppressor clean? So you are going to run 'greased casts' through it?
Polymer or powder coating has been okay so far. I ran a case of polymer-coated 9mm with no problems. Gas checks are right the out, but most of the designs can be had in a plain-base.

Right now I think the leader is the Missouri Bullet 158gr SWC "action!" Hi-Tek. Anyone have a preference for grooves vs grooveless? I'm tempted to think the grooveless would be shorter and I'd prefer the longer bearing surface, but I'm not sure it would matter much.

[Bigslug]

My current thinking:

A WFN profile mold that casts a solid around 175 grains will probably generate something close to the classic 158 grain when set up with hollow point pins. That nose profile will avoid the "nose-too-long" potential of the 173 grain 358429 SWC. Alteration of alloy, charge, and nose would pretty much cover anything you'd need to do with a .357 save snakeshot. Not sure if any of the "mass production" houses are even into offering cast HP options, but it might be a line of research for you.

[runfiverun]

I don't think the groove makes all that much difference other than they are easier to quickly cast a pile of them.
the grooved ones will also give you a crimp groove which you'll want if you decide to step on the 2400 or H-110
I'd Look at Bayou bullets too.
Donnie there is the importer for Hi-Tek and has that stuff down pat.

[MT Gianni]

I shoot 357 in everything from 4" to 16" and am happy running rb to 225 gr bullets in mine. I am of the opinion this is kind of thinking that the 06 is good only for deer and only with a 165 gr bullet. Restricted to one mold of the 20 + 35 caliber molds I own I would go with NOE 160 wfn.

[mcdaniel.mac]

I shoot 357 in everything from 4" to 16" and am happy running rb to 225 gr bullets in mine. I am of the opinion this is kind of thinking that the 06 is good only for deer and only with a 165 gr bullet. Restricted to one mold of the 20 + 35 caliber molds I own I would go with NOE 160 wfn.
Someday I'll surely have a rack of molds, but I'm trying to make the most of limited resources for now. I'm with you on tweaking for perfect as a rule though.

I don't think the groove makes all that much difference other than they are easier to quickly cast a pile of them.
the grooved ones will also give you a crimp groove which you'll want if you decide to step on the 2400 or H-110
I'd Look at Bayou bullets too.
Donnie there is the importer for Hi-Tek and has that stuff down pat.
I had not considered the longer crimp. I was a little worried about crimping on the grooveless bullets just because of the recoil-pulling with the J-frame.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I am partial to the NOE 360-160-SWC as shown below. I like the second crimp groove for another length option. I had a few other 358 molds in that weight range, but most of them have been sold...as I like this one the best.

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=35_308&products_id=2240
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/images/N.O.E._Bullet_Moulds_360-160-SWC_(PB).Jpg

[winelover]

. A 180gr would be a bit heavy for the snubs.

Recoil isn't as bad as you would expect. I loaded up some 180 gr. RNFP for my lever with AA#7 but POI was way too low. So I figured I'd try them in my Ruger LCR snubbie. Not any worse than 158 SWC's.

Winelover

[Petrol & Powder]

There's a lot of good suggestions on this thread and I don't think I can add much.

I will say that with the OP's current lineup of revolvers, he may want to lean a little closer to 160 grs bullet weight than the 170.
That narrows the main choice down to bullet style (SWC vs RNFP). I think the SWC may be a bit better "all-around" bullet but that opinion is just that, an opinion.
Some lever actions get along better without that sharp shoulder on the bullet and so do some revolvers when using speedloaders. A slight chamfer on the revolver chambers (charge holes for you S&W people) pretty much fixes the revolver - speedloader issue.

So, I'm going say some SWC in the 158-160 grain range and call it a day.

[Wayne Smith]

And finding a local caster to provide some boolits isn't gonna run anyone up against the BATFE unless they are selling to more than one person. One person does not make a 'business'. Unless you are shooting an awful lot!

[rond]

Several of the sellers I've looked at sell 'sample' bags of 25 or 50, so sampling is definitely on the menu. Missouri Bullet has a 100-pack sampler.

Polymer or powder coating has been okay so far. I ran a case of polymer-coated 9mm with no problems. Gas checks are right the out, but most of the designs can be had in a plain-base.

Right now I think the leader is the Missouri Bullet 158gr SWC "action!" Hi-Tek. Anyone have a preference for grooves vs grooveless? I'm tempted to think the grooveless would be shorter and I'd prefer the longer bearing surface, but I'm not sure it would matter much.

I think the action boolits are to hard but haven't tried any with Hi-Tek so it may work, the softer boolits expand a lot better.

[Guesser]

Been using 358156 for more than 40 years in Revolvers, Contenders and Carbines. It works, that's all....carry on!!

[mcdaniel.mac]

I think the action boolits are to hard but haven't tried any with Hi-Tek so it may work, the softer boolits expand a lot better.
The Action! bullets are a Brinell 18, and the softer ones are Brinell 12. I'm worried the softer ones might not fare well once they get up around 1100FPS.

[runfiverun]

12 is harder than I run in almost everything I got.
it don't even try to get past that until I'm running in a rifle or seeking more accuracy with the very top end loads.

[Petrol & Powder]

12 BHn is plenty hard for revolvers and maybe too hard for most loads.

[mcdaniel.mac]

12 is harder than I run in almost everything I got.
it don't even try to get past that until I'm running in a rifle or seeking more accuracy with the very top end loads.


12 BHn is plenty hard for revolvers and maybe too hard for most loads.

Thanks to both of you. Sounds like the 12 will suffice.

[dragon813gt]

The Action! bullets are a Brinell 18, and the softer ones are Brinell 12. I'm worried the softer ones might not fare well once they get up around 1100FPS.

I'm pushing well over 1100fps at a hardness around 12 w/ no issues. They are all plain base as well. People make to much out of hardness.

[OS OK]

Elmer Keith used to call 12 BHN 'hard' lead.

[Artful]

And finding a local caster to provide some boolits isn't gonna run anyone up against the BATFE unless they are selling to more than one person. One person does not make a 'business'. Unless you are shooting an awful lot!

Ha Ha Ha - You must be trying to apply common sense to .Gov.
oh, tell me another one.

The GCA of 1968 defines ammunition as:



Ammunition. Ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm other than an antique firearm. The term shall not include (a) any shotgun shot or pellet not designed for use as the single, complete projectile load for one shotgun hull or casing, nor (b) any unloaded, non-metallic shotgun hull or casing not having a primer.


As you can see, ammunition also includes components such as bullets, cases, primers, and powder. If you manufacture any of these, example being casting a bullet, you are manufacturing ammunition. If you do it for part of your livelihood and profit, you need to be licensed as a manufacturer.

The ATF's opinion/way they enforce the law, is one incident of selling ammunition or components you manufacture is cause to believe you did it to attempt profit and livelihood. Livelihood can be supplemental income. Selling also includes not only common currency payments but also trades for services, goods, or promises for future compensation. Selling equals compensation. If you are compensated in any way shape or form, you are "selling".

The FFL type you need for making and selling Ammo or Components is a Type 06 Manufacturer of Small Arms Ammunition Other Than Destructive Devices.
The fee is/was $30 for three years. Back in the day at least.

Also, what a lot of manufacturers don't get is that since you are manufacturing ammunition or components that also gets controlled by the US State Department under the ITAR or International Trade in Arms Regulations. And they are doing this for gunsmithing services like threading a barrel - enforced by the State Dept.

In a nutshell, it states that manufacturers of ammunition, components, firearms, parts, scopes, etc are all manufacturers of "defensive articles". It does not matter if you are not exporting them. All manufacturers must register. There are no exceptions. The fact that you are only manufacturing articles for civilian use of domestic law enforcement use does not matter. The annual fee for ITAR registration is $2250 per year.

Here's the straight up ITAR code:



Sec. 122.1 Registration requirements.

(a) General. Any person who engages in the United States in the business
of either manufacturing or exporting defense articles or furnishing
defense services is required to register with the Office of Munitions
Control. Manufacturers who do not engage in exporting must nevertheless
register.


Then there's liability insurance. You know to protect the caster in cast the buyer does something stupid.
A basic liability policy is a few thousand dollars a year and goes up from there.

[Wayne Smith]

All of that applies if I am running a business making and selling bullets, boolits, or any other ammo component. Selling some cast boolits to one person is hard to define as a 'business'. Especially if I am 'paid' in kind.

[dragon813gt]

Running afoul of the ATF is not something you want to do. They're the ones making the rules and they like to change them all the time. If money changes hands you can bet they will consider you a business. Will they go after a guy selling billets to one person only? Unlikely but I sure don't want to take the chance.

[crabo]

You could also put a coat of one of the liquid Lube, 45/45/10 or BLL to add to the boolits you buy when you load them hot. Sometimes the lube isn't the greatest because they make it a little harder to stand up to shipping.

[quilbilly]

I am thinking you will need two molds and a sizer. One mold is the Lee 125 RF for fun and frolic and the other is the Lyman Keith style 170 gr. for business. The sizer might be a 359 Lee. You also might consider that little lead melter that is for hand pouring fishing jigs and only holds about 3#. That little pot is available from fishing lure component supplier, Barlow's in Richardson, Texas. That pot and a 15"x15" piece of plywood to set it on might work quite nicely on your balcony if it has a small table. You could put the whole thing except the plywood in a shoebox for storage.

[Artful]

All of that applies if I am running a business making and selling bullets, boolits, or any other ammo component. Selling some cast boolits to one person is hard to define as a 'business'. Especially if I am 'paid' in kind.

Wayne the Shrink, Let me tell you a story of the BATFE and me.
I was "encouraged" by an AFT agent when I was at a gun show to get an FFL because
I purchased one gun at a the show and remarked to my friend that I could double the price I paid at the next big show at the nearest big city. I was overheard and he explained that buying and selling "a" gun for profit was a business and without paying the .gov for a licence I was breaking the law.

Fast forward and under a different administration the ATF called asked how many guns I sold so far that current year, and the previous and "encouraged" me to drop my license or changed to a C&R because the current policy was they didn't want "Kitchen Table" FFL's.

Does this explain my attitude towards the .Gov and what I see possibly happening.

Say .mac goes to the range and he shoots a really good group and the guy at the next bench says something and asks where did you get the bullets and .mac say he bought them from a friend - and the guy persists as he wants to buy some so .mac say he got them from Wayne Smith. And the guy is an BATFE agent and shows up at Wayne Smith's and says .mac told me I could buy some cast boolits from you. And you have a few thousand too many .357's and so you say sure. Mousetrapped and now you go to court.

See the danger?

[Wayne Smith]

It is possible to get mousetrapped, true. Federal Court is expensive, too. That is why I don't sell boolits - but I'll give them away or trade for lead. If you want boolits that I make I'll teach you to cast - done that twice so far. Some of you guys will remember Chris (Arisaka99) - he was one of my victims! I will still give him some boolits for his Arisaka when he comes to visit, but most likely he will cast them himself.

The definition of 'doing business' is highly variable in the court today. That is the tightrope we walk if we casually make boolits for others.

[Ron in PA]

Lyman #358156 , My go to bullet for Ruger security six.