Lube groove question

[rvpilot76]

I am designing a mold for Dan at MM to cut for me and I am wondering if there is any advantage to having two lube grooves of a smaller size, or having one large groove? Magma engineering has a single lube groove .458 bullet in their catalog, and I've talked with Gene @ Magma and he says it is his most accurate bullet in that caliber. Does anyone have experience or a hypothesis on this one?

Kevin

[Bent Ramrod]

RVPilot76,

Elmer Keith thought a lot of little grease grooves on a bullet was "decoration" and designed his bullets with one large one (a square groove, rather than rounded at the bottom). I really don't know how to calculate stresses on bearing surfaces, but it would seem to me that like if you are shooting smokeless powder and want one large grease groove, you need to have enough metal ahead of and behind the groove to keep the bullet from bending or slumping under pressure as it goes into the rifling leade. However, something would have to lubricate that band of metal ahead of the groove if it is too wide, or leading would result.

With black powder, I would think a lot of little grooves alternating with a lot of short bearing surfaces would smear the maximum amount of lube on the powder-fouling on barrel surface, dosing it repeatedly as the bullet passes, keeping it soft. But I have seen a .458 SAECO pointy bullet with one large grease groove and figured it was a BPCR target bullet.

Just my intuitive guesswork, FWIW.

[Bass Ackward]

Kevin,

For short barrels or low pressures the answer is no. But for higher pressure use or longer barrels, then yes. So it really depends on how you are going to use it.

When that starts to drive you crazy, you will find that the correct question is really how much lube? Now that one takes a disertation or two.

[Buckshot]

.............I personally do not have any experience with a 45 cal rifle bullet having only one LG. However one of my shooting buddies buys commercial cast boolits and I saw his results. He was buying the slugs from Dillon, and all he'd gotten before had been with 3 grooves. They were filled with a hard blue (natch) lube.

After some length of time he got an order that had basicly the same looking slug, except it had one LG which was a tad wider then one of the previous 3 lube grooves. They leaded pretty bad. That's what he told me and all I know. He used them in his original Trapdoor and a Pedersoli rolling block.

..............Buckshot

[MGySgt]

What Bass Said - But at the same time - Amount of lub - we can over lub our bullets. Most of the older styles wanted a lot of lub, multiple grooves or one big one.

The newer lubs are superior to the lubs of yester year and if you need to use less lub and you have only one lub groove - you are SOL!

The 2 examples I sent you, the OFP could shoot better (I think) with less lub. That is one of the tests I want to run this winter/sring time.

Drew

[45 2.1]

There is a balance between bearing band width and lube groove width. A 4.5:3 ratio works pretty well. If you want to use more lube, then pick a light bodied lube.

[MGySgt]

There is a balance between bearing band width and lube groove width. A 4.5:3 ratio works pretty well. If you want to use more lube, then pick a light bodied lube.

Yes - there are a lot of different lubs out there - but most of us only have one (or possibly 2) luber/sizer and we only use one lub. Overkill if you use a real good lub on 38 wad cutters. But the only other choices you have is to use less lub (fewer bands filled) or change out your lub (and waste it) when you need to use a different lub.

Currently I only use Lyman Super Moly. Overkill for my mid range 44 mags and 45 acp's, but real good for my rifle loads.

Just my thoughts on number of lub grooves and lub.

Maybe when I run out of what I have I will try something else, but then I will have to re-workup my max loads, at least in my rifles.

Verl Smiths book on Cast bullets makes, at least what I think, a good point about different lubs and chamber presures. May not make a safe load unsafe, but I believe it could change a good shooting load into an 'Also Ran'.

Just my humble opinion.

Drew

[45 2.1]

Yes - there are a lot of different lubs out there - but most of us only have one (or possibly 2) luber/sizer and we only use one lub. Overkill if you use a real good lub on 38 wad cutters. But the only other choices you have is to use less lub (fewer bands filled) or change out your lub (and waste it) when you need to use a different lub.Drew

End your pain and buy another lurisizer, I have seven, all with different lubes and I use them all.

[MGySgt]

Must be nice - I am just a old retired Marine.

I look for them at yard sales, Flea Markets and gun shows - Haven't found any.

Drew

[45 2.1]

Only bought the fist one new, the rest were found at giveaway prices over about 30 years. They're there, you just have to have some luck sometimes.

[rvpilot76]

There is a balance between bearing band width and lube groove width. A 4.5:3 ratio works pretty well. If you want to use more lube, then pick a light bodied lube.
If I go with a single lube groove, it will have a 1.5 groove to band ratio, and the weight will be 450 grains. I am also thinking about a 350 grainer, and with a single lube groove on that guy, the biggest groove to band ratio is 1.0. Kinda stuck with that one. :lovebooli

Kevin

[rvpilot76]

Currently I only use Lyman Super Moly. Overkill for my mid range 44 mags and 45 acp's, but real good for my rifle loads.


Drew
How do you like this lube? Does it run all over the place when it gets warm?
I have been thinking about this lube, or the Speed Green that everyone rants about. Plus, I wouldn't mind helping out a fellow Alaskan(I used to live in Juneau) :grin:.

Kevin :lovebooli

[45 2.1]

If I go with a single lube groove, it will have a 1.5 groove to band ratio, and the weight will be 450 grains. I am also thinking about a 350 grainer, and with a single lube groove on that guy, the biggest groove to band ratio is 1.0. Kinda stuck with that one. :lovebooli

Kevin

If thats a pistol bullet ok, but I really don't like one groove rifle bullets in large long bullets. You can't adjust the amount of lube you want on the bullet. The ratio also depends if you are going to shoot blackpowder. Black needs alot more lube.

[MGySgt]

How do you like this lube? Does it run all over the place when it gets warm?
:grin:.

Kevin :lovebooli

Kevin - I have not hqad any problem with Lub Run in hot weather, yes it is a real messy lub and gets all over everything (black shoot) but it wips off fairly easy.

I have been shooting some of my 450's this morning in my 45/70 GG - too much lub! I am getting black flecks of lub on the target 100 yards away. I am going to load some more tonight with just one groove lubed and see if that doesn't work better.

The rest of today I am working on my pistol range back stop.

Drew

[felix]

Sometimes, you will get longer term accuracy for the outing with a harder lube, but still filling all of the grooves. This technique works well when the boolit is a tight fit in the throat and the velocity to be generated is high, and/or the barrel is longer. ... felix

[rvpilot76]

Kevin - I have not hqad any problem with Lub Run in hot weather, yes it is a real messy lub and gets all over everything (black shoot) but it wips off fairly easy.

I have been shooting some of my 450's this morning in my 45/70 GG - too much lub! I am getting black flecks of lub on the target 100 yards away. I am going to load some more tonight with just one groove lubed and see if that doesn't work better.

Drew
My Cowboy has a 26" barrel. Do you think I would be over-lubed with your 450 design with that much longer barrel? I can live with a little excess, but I don't want to be shooting dry at all.
Kevin :lovebooli

[MGySgt]

My Cowboy has a 26" barrel. Do you think I would be over-lubed with your 450 design with that much longer barrel? I can live with a little excess, but I don't want to be shooting dry at all.
Kevin :lovebooli

Kevin,

Every once in awhile I have the same problem with my Sharps and that OFP and that has a 28 in barrel. The Sharps is really not a problem and it doesn't open up the group much. It really only ocurrs in real hot weather (90+ degrees).

I am going to load up some tonight to shoot tomorrow (Sat) with only one groove filled to see if that doesn't solve the problem with the 45/70 GG.

Drew

[rvpilot76]

Kevin,

Every once in awhile I have the same problem with my Sharps and that OFP and that has a 28 in barrel. Drew
The problem being over or under-lubed?
Kevin

[MGySgt]

The problem being over or under-lubed?
Kevin
Over lubed - IMHO - Lyman Super Moly would not be in an under lub with all grease grooves filled unless the design just did not have enough lub grooves to begin.

[Bass Ackward]

Kevin,

Sounds like we may be confusing ya just a little. Let's make life simple.

Go to a catalog or a WEB site that will show you pictures of cast bullet designs that have stood the test of time. Look at all the vendors and pay attention to rifle bullets. Check out how many one groove designs you see.

Then ask yourself why?

[Buckshot]

.............Lubes today are much better then they were in the 1930's or before. That is, for today's loads. There is a relationship in which certain lube pedigree's, and lube quantities operate. Barrel length is one. Many BPCR silhuette shooters were found sawing off the last 4" of their 34" rifle barrels.

Alloy, barrel configuration, load intensity, lube quantity, lube pedigree, temourature and probably some other things that aren't coming to mind at the moment play a part. Several examples of personal experience, things I've read, or happenings to others I have direct knowledge of point to lube issues.

1) In my P58 2 band Enfield, a Minie' like the Lee 505gr with it's generous base cavity will shoot clean most all day long with Crisco. Go to a slug like the Ly 566gr P-H with a much smaller base cavity and 5-6 shots with Crisco is all you'll get before it fouls out. Switch to Bore Butter and you're back to shooting all day.

2) The Oldfeller 6.5mm 172gr Cruise Missle. Degraded accuracy will 4 lube gooves fulled. Does just fine with 2 lube grooves filled (same lube). Reports from several users after issue. Likely most using NRA 50/50.

3) Buddy's commercial hard case 405gr 45 cal rifle slugs. Three lube grooves (hard blue lube) shot just fine (mild loads). Same boolit design, one slightly lagrer lube groove. Same rifles, same loads, same apparent lube = bad leading. He gave me the balance of his boolits of this type so I could melt them down. I remember wondering after looking at that one lonely lube groove amongst the expance of lead, "What were they thinking"?

4) Test run in 'Handloader' magazine with 38 Wad cutter mild target loads using Javalina NRA 50/50. Fill all 4 lube grooves and you get degraded accuracy after a number of shots. Lots of smoke and messy pistol. Go to 3 LG's filled, and ditto above. Go to 2 LG's filled and accuracy better, less smoke and mess. Best with one LG filled. Test to determine WHICH LG does best filled. Turns out the best is with the very bottom filled.

5) Personal loading test in 1898 Krag 30-40 Infantry rifle. Boolit Lee custom C312-200RF with 6 very shallow lube grooves. Using Javalina at about 1800 fps the lube star dried up and the end of the barrel gets increasingly dryer appearing (dull grayish barrel walls). Accuracy deteriorates. Alloy BHN 12.

Second test BHN 12 alloy and BHN 18 alloy. Both alloys lubed with Javalina and a high temp green wax type lube for 4 different batches. Both the hard and soft alloy boolits with Javalina gave up by 2000 fps. The hard waxy green lube gave up between 2 & 2100 fps, while the harder alloy with the green lube carried on to 2200 fps with only mild accuracy reduction. Bore remained somewhat dark with lighter streaks alongside the lands.

The author Paul Matthew's testing of historic BP type lubes in slugs over smokless loads. Accuracy was terrible according to him.

As a habit I found that TL'ing all my bore rider boolits seems to enhance accuracy. I say seems as I've never done a lengthy involved test. I TL first and then they go through the lube-sizer of a regular dose (usually Javalina). One thing for sure and that is that they engrave/chamber a lot easier. Possibly that makes the difference?

At one time the Ly 311284 was bad mouthed for not carrying sufficient lube for high velocity use. This was pre-NRA 50/50 lube.

http://www.fototime.com/{B652B6D1-BE4E-47EB-9FD2-BBED547B8286}/picture.JPG
This is a boolit I helped Dan at Mountain Moulds design a couple years ago for the 43 Spanish. I ended up buying one of the moulds. A 420gr slug aimed more toward the BPC guys, but does really well with the bottom 3 grooves filled for smokless.

http://www.fototime.com/{A17FFE69-C34C-4524-878F-0F257B3AD010}/picture.JPG
Some boolit design philosophies, all for the same caliber.

This lube thing. It's surely something to think about.

...............Buckshot