What do you consider a "good" 44 mag group?

[fatelvis]

My latest project is trying to wring out top accuracy from my pre-lock S&W 629 w/6.5" bbl., with mild to medium loads. It has a nice tight barrel/cylinder gap, tight lockup, I had the undersized throats honed out to .4308" by Dougguy, and it has an EXCELLENT trigger. I consider myself a proficient shot, especially with a good solid rest, and can usually test a firearm's inherent accuracy when I concentrate on eliminating all my possible human errors. That being said, I'm currently only able to shoot about 3" groups at 50yds., using a sand bag rest and iron sights. Is this considered acceptable by most? I can't seem to accept any larger than about 2" at that distance. Am I expecting too much from this revolver/cartridge?
BTW, after trying several powders/charge weights, I found the best so far is 8.5grns Unique under a NOE 432421 lubed with Speedgreen.

[Jack Stanley]

Your group size sounds very good to me . Back when I could see the sights and was using a model 29 very regular , my standard was two cylinders full with all shots touching at twenty-five yards .

Jack

[243winxb]

3" is good. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/IMG_3306B.jpg

Note that the target in the photo is a standard 50 yard Bullseye target.
A high master will score in the 90's with a 45 acp, standing, using 1 hand.

[Whitespider]

I'd be extremely happy with 3-inch, 50-yard groups from any iron-sighted revolver.
*

[fatelvis]

I'm starting to feel a little better about my progress with this revolver. Thanks guys.
You've got a lot of cool pics there 243, thanks for sharing them!

[44deerslayer]

Try 2400 I get the best groups out of my prelock 29-2 4inch and 6.5 inch with 18.5 grains of 2400 with a 429421 boolit

[rugerdude]

Dang, I'm plumb happy if I can keep a whole cylinder on a 8" paper plate at 50 yards with iron sights! 3 inches would have me grinning like a ******* eating briars!

[Beagle333]

I'm with you, Rugerdude. 50 yards is a long way to me. Even before I got the astigmatism.

[HeavyMetal]

3 inch isn't bad but I think a little "wring out" of your load may help shrink that, or not depending on what your doing right now, LOL!

Suggest the following:

1 same HS on all brass better yet get a small lot of new Starline 44 mag and dedicate it to load development only.

2 trim to length after full length sizing

3 ream primer pockets to a specific depth cull any that do not ream a full cut into the primer pocket their crooked!

4 play with different primers, avoid Mag primers with Unique you won't need them, my best loads for my 29 use Federal standard pistol primers

5 play with crimp, unfamiliar with the NOE mold your using, but will look it up, but crimp can be both good and bad depending a lot on how your case's are prepped and sorted by HS. With a soft load like the Unique one you list it my do better with a mild to no crimp provided you have good bullet pull which is based on both using the same HS case and having an expander set just over boolit diameter by one to two thousandths of an inch.

6 avoid the SWC for distance shooting, 44man will advise the whole layout if he posts and he speaks with great authority as far as I am concerned! the 429421 usually is out of it's league by 50 yards the WFN's do much better! So much so that my Lyman 4 cav 429421 has been reduced to the Skelton load in my 44 Ruger flattop Bisley.

[fatelvis]

Any and all tips are appreciated!
I am using virgin Starline brass and Winchester standard primers. I have been using a light to medium crimp, in the crimp groove, but may try some loads without a crimp. My muzzle hasn't been showing the lube star that I like seeing, but my bore is remaining lead free and shiny. I will try the federal primers, and venture out and try a WFN style boolit. Have you guys found that using gas checked bullets generally improved accuracy even further?


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[fatelvis]

I was actually thinking of mounting a scope, just for load development, and then removing it for use with iron sights.


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[HeavyMetal]

I've not found using gas checks makes any difference, every mold I own is a plain or bevel base mold, my thought on checks is simple, if you swage them on the are whatever diameter the sizing die is and most check don't stretch to fit over sized mold, aka 430 or 431 instead of 429 diameters.

Now for a blatant attempt to sell a mold: I have a single cavity 429434 that cast at .432 diameter it was a gas check mold nd I had Eric at Hollowpoint mold enlarge the gas check shank and make it a 245 grain flat base WFN mold.

Liked it so much that I bought an Accurate 43-240G 4 city plain base copy.

I now have no use for the single cavity Lyman which also has one of Red River Ricks thick sprue plates on it, this is a casting monster but still isn't a 4 banger, LOL!

If your interested in tying a WFN design in a quality mold I'm asking $45.00 and shipping for this one, see my old post in swap and sell.

[C.F.Plinker]

I belong to a club with an indoor 25 yard range. So I do my accuracy testing at 25 yards for handguns. Indoors for non-magnum calibers and outdoors for magnum calibers. For me a good load shot off sandbags will be 5 shots 2 inches or less center to center on the two outside shots, an inch and a half on the best 4 out of 5, and an inch for the best 3 out of the five.

For rifles I use the same criteria except the distance is 50 yards for iron sights and 100 yards for scoped rifles.

[Lloyd Smale]

back when I had good eyes I wanted a 2 inch 50 yard 6 shot group. Shot many one inch groups at that range. today with my old eyes those 2 inch loads go about 4 inch and it doesn't seem to slow down my hunting success other then I pass on 100 yard shots I used to take under IDEAL circumstances.

[44man]

Back when I shot IHMSA I had as many as 5 29's. Every one was extremely accurate and with jacketed Hornady bullets, 296 and a Fed 150 primer they would do 1/2" at 50 meters from Creedmore.
I never did well at shoots with them, found it was my hands, I could not pick the gun up without a change in POI. A 1/2" group would move 10" on me.
The secret to the .44 is to have even case tension from one piece of brass to another. I can measure seating pressure to sort loads. If each boolit feels different as you seat, you will never get groups.
Next is don't over power with a mag primer with ANY powder or you will push out boolits varying amounts and change air space before ignition. No matter what books say, the .44 is too small for mag primers.
Crimp with good tension should be just folded mild, crimp will not change a thing but you want to hold boolits under recoil. A great boolit is the 265 RD, Felix lube, 22 gr of 296, Fed 150. Don't shoot heavier boolits, the S&W does not like recoil inertia on parts. A good 240 to 250 is great.
I shoot water dropped WW boolits, soft will open groups.192931This in my heavy boolit (Ruger only) you can see the crimp and tension on the boolit. Soft boolits do not take kindly to tension like this.192932This is the 265 RD 50 and can at 100. I hit the rail once so held higher for the last shot. Red dot on gun.
I would go with a RNFP or LBT style nose.

[44man]

One more thing to mention, hammer springs. NEVER replace with a lighter one for a trigger pull and never loosen the strain screw on a S&W. This goes for any gun or caliber. Bolt, lever, whatever.
I hate Ruger springs, they take a set and I bought them by the dozen. As soon as I stopped hitting steel I would replace the spring. I went to 26# Wolfe over power variable springs in Rugers and BFR's. Primers need a strong impact to be consistent.

[fatelvis]

Ok 44man, I am taking your advice and gonna spring for a new NOE mold. A 165 RD specifically. Unfortunately, they are sold out of the "combo" molds, so I must choose between PB or GC. Which style would you suggest? Thanks again to everybody!

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive seen accuracy deteriorate backing the grip screw off with cci primers. Using federals makes a big difference. they ignite with a lot less hammer pressure.
Back when I shot IHMSA I had as many as 5 29's. Every one was extremely accurate and with jacketed Hornady bullets, 296 and a Fed 150 primer they would do 1/2" at 50 meters from Creedmore.
I never did well at shoots with them, found it was my hands, I could not pick the gun up without a change in POI. A 1/2" group would move 10" on me.
The secret to the .44 is to have even case tension from one piece of brass to another. I can measure seating pressure to sort loads. If each boolit feels different as you seat, you will never get groups.
Next is don't over power with a mag primer with ANY powder or you will push out boolits varying amounts and change air space before ignition. No matter what books say, the .44 is too small for mag primers.
Crimp with good tension should be just folded mild, crimp will not change a thing but you want to hold boolits under recoil. A great boolit is the 265 RD, Felix lube, 22 gr of 296, Fed 150. Don't shoot heavier boolits, the S&W does not like recoil inertia on parts. A good 240 to 250 is great.
I shoot water dropped WW boolits, soft will open groups.192931This in my heavy boolit (Ruger only) you can see the crimp and tension on the boolit. Soft boolits do not take kindly to tension like this.192932This is the 265 RD 50 and can at 100. I hit the rail once so held higher for the last shot. Red dot on gun.
I would go with a RNFP or LBT style nose.

[Kraschenbirn]

Back in the heyday of the original (Elgin Gates) IHMSA the accuracy standard was 2" groups @ 50 M. from a rest. This (theoretically) would translate to 8" groups at 200M which would keep your hits on body of a ram silhouette. And, believe it or not, it was doable. I had two DWs that would shoot sub-2", using full-house loads, from a Creedmore with a couple sandbags under my wrist.

Bill

[fatelvis]

Back in the heyday of the original (Elgin Gates) IHMSA the accuracy standard was 2" groups @ 50 M. from a rest. This (theoretically) would translate to 8" groups at 200M which would keep your hits on body of a ram silhouette. And, believe it or not, it was doable.
Ahhh, now THAT is what I was looking for! I respect the he** out of Elgin and his accomplishments. I will adopt his accuracy standard as a personal and practical goal for this revolver. Thanks for that bit of info Krasch!

[44man]

Ok 44man, I am taking your advice and gonna spring for a new NOE mold. A 165 RD specifically. Unfortunately, they are sold out of the "combo" molds, so I must choose between PB or GC. Which style would you suggest? Thanks again to everybody!
Mine is the GC but don't think it is needed if the boolit is hard. My larger calibers are all using PB and they are shot hot.

[243winxb]

The alloy must to be strong enough so the bullet doesnt skid in the rifling. Slump can happen with a soft alloy also.

No gas checks on my 44.

[Thumbcocker]

What type of boolits did Mr. Elgin use?

[fredj338]

A lot will be the shooter, most guns & loads are more accurate than we are. My RBH hunter will do just over 3" @ 100 with 2x scope of bags. I can do that from sitting @ 50, so I am good with that. Also not a gc fan & have had them removed from most of my molds. I rarely run over 1300fps & pb works fine.

[fatelvis]

Also not a gc fan & have had them removed from most of my molds.
You guys are definitely steering me towards using PB boolits. To be honest, 90% of my shooting will be with mild loads at paper and non-competitive steel shooting, so I guess GCs would be overkill in that regard.

[fatelvis]

What type of boolits did Mr. Elgin use?
I'm curious about this too. My Google searches turn up nothin'.

[Forrest r]

I'm curious about this too. My Google searches turn up nothin'.

220gr bullets doing 1600fps+. for some odd reason that same combo (220gr bullet/1600fps) makes 1 heck of a hunting load for deer.

[Kraschenbirn]

What type of boolits did Mr. Elgin use?

My 1982 IHMSA "Reloading Guide for Handgun Accuracy" provides NO load data for cast boolits so I doubt Elgin Gates did much in way of CB development. All .44 loads in the IHMSA manual were for jacketed from 220 to 265 gr. with velocities in the 1250-1390 fps range (fired from a 10" Dan Wesson). During my last couple years shooting silhouettes, I had both a .357 SuperMag and a .41 Mag...both with DWs with 10" barrels...but only shot cast in the .41, using a gas-checked NEI that duplicated the TC profile of the old Sierra TMJ. A compressed charge of H4227 produced velocities in the low 1300s and...if I was having a really good day...3"-3 1/2" 100M groups off sandbags.

Bill

[44man]

Bradshaw had 1" groups at 100 with a 29. It is more then doable. He has groups with various revolvers of 1-1/2" at 150 meters.
Really, it is how you load and many guns are capable.
For me I loved the S&W and it was just my hold on them but I could never afford a custom grip. I think it would have helped.
Some will follow what is needed and if you can gain 1/2" it is great. You need to think outside the box.

[44man]

I have the old Shooting Steel book and even have articles of my own in it. Back then Fed ammo was the bench mark for .44 accuracy. Did you know there are no records of Fed ever using a mag primer in the .44. That is true, I talked to them, they use the 150 primer. I spent hours on the phone and they searched back. It took me time but they knew already.

[tdoyka]

That being said, I'm currently only able to shoot about 3" groups at 50yds.,


heck, i'm only able to do 3" at 25 yards!!!! i can only do 5+/-" at 30 yards. but i'm still tryin'!!![smilie=b:

[44man]

Fellas, is it off hand or from a rest? Different animals and even Creedmore allows a dead steady hold.
My pants would fall off if I could do off hand what I did just 5 years ago. Even deer hunting now I need to at least rest my arms but a few years ago 120 yards off hand was easy.
Long ago a friend brought out a new BFR in .500 JRH. I got measurements and made a mold. He came to shoot and working loads at 50 gave me this.193034We got to the target and he asked where the other shots were. I told him all in one hole. Now the sucker has some RECOIL compared to the .44.

[44man]

My 1982 IHMSA "Reloading Guide for Handgun Accuracy" provides NO load data for cast boolits so I doubt Elgin Gates did much in way of CB development. All .44 loads in the IHMSA manual were for jacketed from 220 to 265 gr. with velocities in the 1250-1390 fps range (fired from a 10" Dan Wesson). During my last couple years shooting silhouettes, I had both a .357 SuperMag and a .41 Mag...both with DWs with 10" barrels...but only shot cast in the .41, using a gas-checked NEI that duplicated the TC profile of the old Sierra TMJ. A compressed charge of H4227 produced velocities in the low 1300s and...if I was having a really good day...3"-3 1/2" 100M groups off sandbags.

Bill
True, most used jacketed and there are no loads for cast. Some were shot now and then. I did in some guns. But the .44 was all Hornady bullets. It took me time to work cast in the .44 when I started deer hunting with it. But here is a 200 yard drop test with my boolit.193035 330 gr with 21 gr of 296, Felix lube, fed 150 primer. 1-5/16". Has a lot of drop as you can see. It would have been a ram slammer. I cut the ogive near as I could to my 11° cone for steerage. It will do 1/2" at 50 with a Ruger Hunter with a factory cone and all my friends with .44's come to cast my boolit.
NOT a S&W though.

[44man]

My 1982 IHMSA "Reloading Guide for Handgun Accuracy" provides NO load data for cast boolits so I doubt Elgin Gates did much in way of CB development. All .44 loads in the IHMSA manual were for jacketed from 220 to 265 gr. with velocities in the 1250-1390 fps range (fired from a 10" Dan Wesson). During my last couple years shooting silhouettes, I had both a .357 SuperMag and a .41 Mag...both with DWs with 10" barrels...but only shot cast in the .41, using a gas-checked NEI that duplicated the TC profile of the old Sierra TMJ. A compressed charge of H4227 produced velocities in the low 1300s and...if I was having a really good day...3"-3 1/2" 100M groups off sandbags.

Bill
NEVER the 4227's. accurate as all get out, cold gun ONLY. Gun heat drives the powders nuts. I started with it because everyone on the line used it. It went down the road fast but it works in the .357 max. NOT in the .44.

[Forrest r]

My 1982 IHMSA "Reloading Guide for Handgun Accuracy" provides NO load data for cast boolits so I doubt Elgin Gates did much in way of CB development. All .44 loads in the IHMSA manual were for jacketed from 220 to 265 gr. with velocities in the 1250-1390 fps range (fired from a 10" Dan Wesson). During my last couple years shooting silhouettes, I had both a .357 SuperMag and a .41 Mag...both with DWs with 10" barrels...but only shot cast in the .41, using a gas-checked NEI that duplicated the TC profile of the old Sierra TMJ. A compressed charge of H4227 produced velocities in the low 1300s and...if I was having a really good day...3"-3 1/2" 100M groups off sandbags.

Bill

He didn't do much in the way of any load development for the 44cal's. You're velocities are on the low side. A guy named John Taffin did some interesting articles on the supermags. He also did a lot the initial testing with the 445supermag/445gates. A link to his article.
http://www.sixguns.com/range/supermags.htm

Another article on the 445supermag/gates.
I used a 14" bbl'd contender for awhile with a 220gr gc swc that would do 2000fps+ in that contender bbl.
http://www.sixguns.com/BookOfThe44/bot44c40.htm

The 445gates is nothing more than a long 44mag, you can shoot 44russian/44spl/44mag/445ultramag (445supermag/44gates) in that bbl. Another link to a Taffin article on the evolution of heavy weight bullets for the 44mag, why they were developed along with the evolution of bullets for the 44mag in general.
http://www.sixguns.com/BookOfThe44/bot44c41.htm

Accuracy means different things to different people along with what loads/bullets work and why. Some general themes are known with reloading for any caliber & the 44cal is no different. If you read the articles above you will see that it is easier to get an accurate load with a longer bodied bullet. As others have parroted for ever on this website it is easier to get a bullet to shoot accurately that doesn't have a shoulder compared to bullets that do have shoulders. Bullet alloy is huge with any high pressure load, most shooters use lyman #2 alloy.

So if you aren't the greatest at reloading you need to do this:
longer body ='s heavier/get a 320gr bullet
get a bullet with no shoulder
use 28bhn/30bhn alloy

Anyone can get an accurate load with those 3 things listed above. Now if you really want to see how good your reloading skills are drop down to a #2 alloy (15bhn) using a keith 245gr swc. Or better yet try a 2000fps 220gr bullet. A 320gr bullet doing 1300fps is caveman simple and anyone can get loads like that to shoot.

It isn't how to get an accurate load, it's how to get an accurate load while using anything but the simplest components. Anyone can get a rifle bullet to shoot accurately @ 1300fps, crank it up to 2000fps and see what happens. The 44cal's are no different.

[44man]

I just WD WW boolits for 20 to 22 BHN. In my .44, only the Keith needs harder.
I shot my Marlin 30-30 yesterday over the chrono with my 187 gr, with 3031 it does around an inch at 100 and is going 1945 fps.
Spin is forgotten with revolvers, you must work with twist. Light .44's can be over spun drastically.
My 330 gr spins at 47,376. A 240 from a S&W will be doing 54,874 and it can be seen with a spotting scope rotating around the flight path. A 200 gr will reach 71,655. The S&W has a 1 in 18.75" twist so lighter boolits should be shot slower. A 250 gr from a S&W will fly a straight path as will a 240 from a Ruger.

[Forrest r]

I just WD WW boolits for 20 to 22 BHN. In my .44, only the Keith needs harder.
I shot my Marlin 30-30 yesterday over the chrono with my 187 gr, with 3031 it does around an inch at 100 and is going 1945 fps.
Spin is forgotten with revolvers, you must work with twist. Light .44's can be over spun drastically.
My 330 gr spins at 47,376. A 240 from a S&W will be doing 54,874 and it can be seen with a spotting scope rotating around the flight path. A 200 gr will reach 71,655. The S&W has a 1 in 18.75" twist so lighter boolits should be shot slower. A 250 gr from a S&W will fly a straight path as will a 240 from a Ruger.

With all them 44cal's you've been owning since 1956 you'd think you'd figure out that:

s&w ='s 1 in 20
ruger ='s 1 in 20
contender ='s 1 in 22

Perhaps it's time to clean the lens on your spotting scope. If you need help figuring things out, let me know. I'm always willing to help someone in need.

[44man]

The old S&W 29 is 1 in 18.75. Has the 629 changed? I don't know.
I do see the new hunter is 1 in 20". If the 629 is 1 in 20" I apologize. Yet you must never ignore twist.
A short barrel will not reach velocity or spin for a given boolit. A 2" barrel with the same rate will not spin a boolit like a longer barrel. Spin is based on velocity and twist. Slow velocity and spin must be slower. So my 330 gr at 1100 fps is 39,600. Many say a short barrel can shoot the same as a longer one. They say twist is the same but even 50 fps less can reduce spin.

[Forrest r]

The old S&W 29 is 1 in 18.75. Has the 629 changed? I don't know.
I do see the new hunter is 1 in 20". If the 629 is 1 in 20" I apologize. Yet you must never ignore twist.
A short barrel will not reach velocity or spin for a given boolit. A 2" barrel with the same rate will not spin a boolit like a longer barrel. Spin is based on velocity and twist. Slow velocity and spin must be slower. So my 330 gr at 1100 fps is 39,600. Many say a short barrel can shoot the same as a longer one. They say twist is the same but even 50 fps less can reduce spin.

Odd they had 629's in the 50's.I thought you were the 44mag expert.You're the 1 talking about the affects of different twists in the different firearms and how it affects bullets. Just makes me wonder when you say you've owned 10 + s&w's and you can tell the difference in bullets/twists when the s&w and rugers has had the same twist for decades.Could you please explain in detail how the difference in twists between the s&w's and the rugers can be detected by your highly trained eye in a spotting scope???

WOW

[gunarea]

Hey Fatelvis
If you want to shoot paper and non competitive steel, go check out the thread, International Lawnsteel shooting, under the wheelguns, pistols and handcannons section. We are getting pinpoint accuracy from fifty to seventy yards out with 44s. Mild loads, light bullets, soft alloy and doing it out of S&W, contender and Ruger, plain jane models. No hunting, no adrenaline, no egos. Simply marksmen using highly accurate ammunition they cast, size, lube, load and shoot. All with "IRON SIGHTS" only. We love it when really good shots come and learn how to be really good shots. The load data is all there too.
Roy

[fatelvis]

Thanks Gunarea, I had no idea that section even existed! LOL that type of shooting is exactly what I enjoy the most. Thanks for the heads up!


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[44man]

No 629 in the 50's. S&W did not make a stainless gun for a long time. 29's were ALL blue.
I got my first Ruger and S&W in 1956. Ruger might have been the first maker to go to stainless and they found trouble with galling. Same alloy against the same alloy does not work so they changed parts that touched.
If you have any knowledge of a S&W, the 6 is for stainless. If you find one made in the 50's I will buy lunch.
I did measure twist in mine but the rates are NOT listed at the factory site. But the S&W forums confirmed my findings. Ruger started with a 1 in 20" but not S&W.
I have watched thousands of bullets go downrange at IHMSA shoots.
Forrest r, your keyboard must be under your butt.
I need to tell you, I had dies, a mold, 2400 powder and factory loads for brass long before my first Ruger showed up in the mail. I was shooting the 429421 to over 500 yards in 56 and beyond. We shot the devil out of the 29's, even DA with cardboard stuffed in tires to roll down a hill.
My SBH has near 83,000 rounds through it. No punk loads to speak of. A few for cans with Unique and 231 with a light boolit. Not standard fare.
If you knew the .44 you would help but you do nothing but make trouble.
The 629 came out in 1978.

[44MAG#1]

44man,
Just being nosey, how old were you in 1956?

[44man]

44man,
Just being nosey, how old were you in 1956?
I was 19. Had years of casting, loading, shotgun, etc, before. I was delivering papers on a bike and could buy guns. Store credit with no interest. Think I was 16 with my first revolver, a model 27. Cast for it too. Guns came in the mail then. I loved Herters.
a 25# bag of shot was $5 at the store. Powder was a few bucks. Primers were dead cheap.
There was no hazmat then either. That started with UPS when a jerk tossed a box of primers in the truck. I worked for United Airlines 42 years and made out hazmat forms. It did not add cost at all. just a piece of paper and to place things in the plane in the right place.
Next day air came from stolen pistols even from locked areas. Increase costs. Hazmat is just more money sucked for no reason, Just a few minutes of paper work. Do not load this liquid next to an igniter. It really is where you put stuff in the plane or truck. To charge you is fake, it is just profit.
Shipping and handling is another beef. Buy a 20 cent spring and it costs $15 to send. postage is 50 cents or less. Back in the day it just cost postage.
Like Elmer said, I was there.

[white eagle]

Iron sighted revo at 50 yds I would consider that excellent
looks like you found your load

[Tom W.]

Y'all can put on your rubber boots if you want, but back maybe around 2009 when I was younger and healthy, I was at the range with my buddy. The handgun range was to the right of the range, with sidewalks every five yards from the targets. No canopies, no benches. Offhand only. I had loaded up some Lee 310 cast with coww and a book load. I posted a target and beings that my truck was parked close I went back to the 25 yard line and started to fire at said target, leaving my extra ammo in the truck. I fired four rounds from my Ruger SRH and noticed someone pulling up and watching me. I finished my last two rounds and saw that the car was the local sheriff. He asked me to bring my target so he could look at it. It was one of my better, or luckier days. Four were in the ten,one cut the X out, and the other cut the black and 9. The sheriff looked at the target, looked at me, and asked to see my ammunition. I went to the truck and brought him a loaded round. He said "If someone breaks into your house you won't need to call 911. You'll just have to call the coroner."
I do believe that's the best compliment I've had about my shooting. He took the target.:bigsmyl2:

[44MAG#1]

What type of target. A twenty five official slowfire target is sure different than a B-27. A timed and rapid fire twenty five is different than a twenty five yard slow fire target.

[Blackwater]

Wow! I had to wince a little when I read the title, because my eyesight and the steadiness in my hand are .... let's call it "challenged" these days. Back when I was in what served for my prime, 3" at 100 was my goal, and I could occasionally beat that, but probably averaged something close to that. Sometimes 4", and an occasional "flier" that I always blamed on my casting would crop up. Now? I haven't shot at 100 lately, so I'm not sure, but in all honesty, I'd probably be glad to keep them all on an 8" paper plate at 100 now. This gittin' old ain't for sissies! But I appreciate my shooting more, now, and I STILL wouldn't want me shooting at me, even at 200, so .... I guess I'll have to just be thankful for what I still have on the ball these days? My best shooting buddy could always shade me because he had the eyes of an eagle. That kept me honest and striving. Once in a while, I'd beat him, but it was a red letter day for me when I did that. And he NEVER let me leave without a rematch, which he usually "won." Sure keeps a fella' humble!

But shooting with someone who's better than you are is a great way to get better, especially if you LISTEN to them, and even moreso if they're a really good observer and can tell you what you did wrong when you get a "flier." Shooting partners like this are NOT common, but worth all the effort you can put forth to find them. Always!

[44MAG#1]

You could shoot 3 inch groups offhand/freehand standing at 100 yards? Great.

[bluejay75]

Im normally looking for a rounded ragged hole at 25 yards. Any bigger and Im looking at 3 or more inches at 100 yards.

[fatelvis]

Im normally looking for a rounded ragged hole at 25 yards. Any bigger and Im looking at 3 or more inches at 100 yards.

Using iron sights?


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[bluejay75]

Whether iron sights or scoped. When scoped...Im looking for as close to one hole as I can get.

[Tom W.]

What type of target. A twenty five official slowfire target is sure different than a B-27. A timed and rapid fire twenty five is different than a twenty five yard slow fire target.

That part I can't remember. Probably something I bought at the gun shop or Walmart. Eight years is pushing my memory of minor details.

[Forrest r]

Repeatable accuracy is where it's at. 1/2/3 shot groups mean nothing. All the twist yada-yada-yada is nothing more than smoke and mirrors. Glad the 629 thing got cleared up, now that 1956 for the (1st) s&w got nailed down. Hate to say it the s&w 29/629's have always been 1 in 20 twists. A link to the history of the s&w 44magnum then model 29 (starting in 1957) with every change s&w did to them along with the dates and suffex #'s for those changes. John Taffin did an excellent article on the full history of the s&w 44mag. Here's the link for your reading pleasure.
http://www.sixguns.com/range/SmithWesson44Mag.htm

Why do I keep quoting Taffin???

Perhaps it might have something to do with this link.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?65392-Raked-over-the-coals&highlight=taffin

Post #23 in the link above where 44man states:
I screwed up at that site by posting some group pictures and told the story about the one time I put 3 shots in 2-1/2" at 500 yards. I explained it only happened once and I will never do it again but was just showing the boolit design is stable. Now it is constantly thrown in my face that I claim to shoot groups like that. All of you know I can't do it. It was just a one time miracle and I must have shook the same each shot!

I'm not going to bother going thru the archives showing where 44man has made multiple clams that he can do 2 1/2" groups @ 500yds. That 3" fish turned into a 30" fish several years later.

I see posts all the time with a couple holes in targets or a can or cherry picked targets. They really don't mean much. Years ago I had a 1500yd rifle range and me & my brother were sighting in a 300mag that we put a new scope on. Used to shoot 3-shot find the center and move the scope. Anyway I shot 2 shots and the shim under the scope shifted so we had to re-set/re-test. Went down to paste the target up and saw the 2 bullet holes were within 6" of each other. I guess I could claim I can shoot 6" groups @ 1500yds or I could keep my mouth shut and go back and shoot a 10-shot group and post what really happens.

Why 10-shot groups???
You get true scores and something to compare your score to. There's been a lot of talk about what silhoutette shooters do to compare groups to what you can do. At the end of the day they do 10-shot strings for some odd reason, not 1/2/3, a full 10-shot for score. The big picture, if you can do 10-shot 3" groups @ 100yds you're firearm/load has the ability to allow you to be a national champion at such events like nra bullseye or any of the silhouette events. Heck a ram @ 200m is 26" x 32".

You want to separate the wheat from the chaff, instead of laying down and supporting a revolver to shoot a 26" x 32" ram @ 200m. Try shooting a 6 1/2" x 5" ram standing @100m.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/100_3380_zpssg4h6g9x.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/100_3380_zpssg4h6g9x.jpg.html)

If you can consistently do 3" 10-shot groups @ 100yds you can rule the world.

[Thumbcocker]

When shooting at 100 yards or further do you adjust the sight to that range or use the "hold up a dab of front sight" method?.

[44man]

Never claimed I could shoot 2-1/2" at 500 all the time and always said it was my best group. It was shot Ultra Dot from Creedmore. Can't adjust the red dot enough so at 500 yards and 500 meters I aimed at a tree branch behind to what I estimate at 26' above the steel.
No, I can't shoot off hand for beans anymore. I am 79. Even Creedmore is a shaking contest.
Now you bring single shots and a real funny set up to boot.193222 OK, the Wichita has done tiny groups at 200 meters and the MOA put 5 shots in 3/8" at 100.
OH dang, sandbags but open sights too. The Wichita did 1-7/8" at 200.
You do not want to hear what my XP100 could do after I made a custom stock for it.

[44man]

I don't shoot 10 shots from revolvers, 5 shot groups but working loads will be 3 shots each. Once I find the load, then it will be 5 shots to confirm and over years it stays the same. My SBH has 83,000 heavy rounds through it and still shoots the same. I have nothing to prove with 10 shot groups. Just tires a guy out faster.

[243winxb]

I seem to remember the smallest groups and forget the really bad ones.

This is why i use an average or a target for score to compare.

Remember, groups on the interweb are always smaller than in real time.

:Fire:

[44MAG#1]

It is what a person can do on the average that determines how well they can shoot. Not what is doneonce in a while. If one shoots 20 target one is going to have a target in the 20 that will be a glory halallujah target and one the shooter can't get to it fast enough to get it down before anyone else sees it. The others will be somewhere between the two. It is what you can do on a regular basis day in and day out that establishes how good you are. Not your luckiest day or your most unlucky day. If one shoots hundreds of targets from the bench or offhand and keeps only the best targets one will have several astounding targets one can show to people. What did your average targets look like is the question. This goes for. All of us.

[Kraschenbirn]

It is what a person can do on the average that determines how well they can shoot. Not what is done once in a while...

Amen, Brother!! Day before yesterday, I was testing some .308 loads in an M700. Seven of my first 200-yard group went into just over 2" with two called flyers and one "Wha...?". Second target, same load, ten shots inside the 3" bull. Final group, eight in the bull and two flyers; one called and one (huh?). Now, I know the load needs a bit of tuning and will continue to tinker with it but which target do you think is tacked on the wall of my workshop?

Bill

[dverna]

If I was checking loads at 50 yards, I would mount a scope. Especially if your goal is 2" groups.

I do that when developing loads for the 1894 Marlin lever action. My eyes are not good enough to do the job with iron sights. Once I have a good load, the scope comes off, and the iron sights are dialed in.

[Blackwater]

You could shoot 3 inch groups offhand/freehand standing at 100 yards? Great.

Nope. Off a good sandbag rest, resting the front of the frame on the bags. Offhand, I'd probably do good to keep them inside 8", but sitting, with my arms resting just back of my knees, I could approach 3" most of the time. Probably maybe 4" on avg.? But it took a long time and some refined loads to get to that. In one of the places I used to shoot a lot, we used to practice on 5 gal. buckets at @ 220 yds. across a pond. That was fun. A good .44 and some practice, and you'd be surprised at what they can do. Nowadays, I'd be satisfied just to keep them all in an 8" group at 100. My eyes just ain't what they used to be, and you can't shoot any better than you can see. My best shooting buddy could just shade me most days, but his eyesight was amazing. I considered that "cheating," but he never saw it that way! I guess I need to shoot with better friends??? :mrgreen:

[bluejay75]

3 inches off hand with any caliber or rifle/ scope configuration would be tough for any marksman. I couldn't do 3 at 50 repeatably.

[Digital Dan]

RSB, 50 yards:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/RSB_zpsbhfhpvlc.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/RSB_zpsbhfhpvlc.jpg.html)

[44MAG#1]

Can this this be done far more than seldom. Maybe on the average at least?


RSB, 50 yards:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/RSB_zpsbhfhpvlc.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/RSB_zpsbhfhpvlc.jpg.html)

[Digital Dan]

I dunno for other folks, it was fair average for that gun and load. The group was fired offhand. I never fired the gun from a rest in the 28 years I owned it. It did open up a little with 240 grain bullets, but not enough to curb my guestimate of effective range.

[44MAG#1]

I dunno for other folks, it was fair average for that gun and load. The group was fired offhand. I never fired the gun from a rest in the 28 years I owned it. It did open up a little with 240 grain bullets, but not enough to curb my guestimate of effective range.

My hat is off to you for sure. In NRA Bullseye you would have been a phenomenal individual because if that group had been in the ten ring you would have had a fifty out of fifty with four X's. If you could have managed that degree of holding ability on the average you would have been a force to reckoned with. Beyond a Bill Blankenship or Harry Reeves or the many that have been known for their shooting ability in years gone by.

[Digital Dan]

Truly don't know much about competition shooting. Would describe my strengths as shotguns and offhand rifles. Have always been comfortable with revolvers, so so with autos. I'm more of a hunter than a shooter.

[Digital Dan]

Minor addendum to my comments above; in my humble opinion the most critical aspect of offhand shooting is to follow thru. The game isn't over when the hammer falls by any means. There is no finer tool for honing the skill than a flintlock due to the somewhat lengthy delay between trigger break and bullet exit from the muzzle.

50 yards, offhand, .45 (.440") caliber roundball patched w/.010" lubed linen. Left target, upper strike was a fouler shot. The targets were shot back to back.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/Black%20Powder/107_zpsef3feaf9.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/Black%20Powder/107_zpsef3feaf9.jpg.html)

I wasn't so successful when I first began shooting the rifle, trust me. It did lead to improved groups across the board however. Same day I shot the targets above I managed to do a .6" group of 3 with a 77/44, also at 50 yards and offhand. Handguns are demanding in their own way and very responsive to how they are held, something I think most are aware of. I don't know this as fact, call it a suspicion, but some endeavors can be befuddled by shooting off bags. The flinter referenced above shoots fer poop off a bag rest. Seriously....awful.

Distill all this down to the essence: Practice, practice, practice

[bluejay75]

Please share your .6 in 50 yard 77/44 group. I have a few magic loads for this rifle too...but none are cast.

[243winxb]

What do you consider a "good" 44 mag group?
My latest project is trying to wring out top accuracy from my pre-lock S&W 629 w/6.5" bbl., with mild to medium loads. It has a nice tight barrel/cylinder gap, tight lockup, I had the undersized throats honed out to .4308" by Dougguy, and it has an EXCELLENT trigger. I consider myself a proficient shot, especially with a good solid rest, and can usually test a firearm's inherent accuracy when I concentrate on eliminating all my possible human errors. That being said, I'm currently only able to shoot about 3" groups at 50yds., using a sand bag rest and iron sights. Is this considered acceptable by most? I can't seem to accept any larger than about 2" at that distance. Am I expecting too much from this revolver/cartridge?
BTW, after trying several powders/charge weights, I found the best so far is 8.5grns Unique under a NOE 432421 lubed with Speedgreen.

How do muzzle loaders and rifles fit into this thread? They dont. :hijack::hijack:

[Digital Dan]

I thought myself clear that the comparison has to do a lot with how the firearm is addressed and manipulated, that being very salient to accuracy down range. Handguns have their own quirks, but there is no exclusion on that with long arms. It was my intention to bring that issue up for possible benefit to the OP. Sorry if that got your knickers in a knot. The world of precision and accuracy is not just about bullets and loads.

The dynamics of a shot are little more than choreographed chaos. Your job as a shooter is to make that as consistent as possible.

[Blackwater]

Offhand shooting is a really acquired talent, and almost always obtained via a LOT of shooting, and I'm talking about SERIOUS shooting, where one is focused on hitting to the exclusion of all other mental considerations, so as to learn muscle memory and coordination and timing. I think the old Schuetzen shooters, who used to do a lot of offhand shooting (which originated, I believe in the development of the palm rests they used) used to hold above the target, and let the sights slowly downward, and pulled the trigger (or tried to) at just the right moment, just before it hit dead center. This called for timing the pull just right, and it had to be just slightly BEFORE the sights hit plum dead center, to allow for trigger and lock time. Each individual had to learn his own parameters for this, and try to do it consistently, shot after shot. It's much the same with handguns. None of us can hold a handgun quite "still," but the main thing is to keep the sights aligned perfectly, and most especially the front sight. Then squeeze off without moving the gun, which isn't learned overnight with a handgun. It can be one of the most frustrating things an aspiring pistolero has to learn, but it really pays off. And largely, it's a lot like learning to ride a bicycle. Once you do it, you wonder why it was so hard to learn to start with.

The really big thing is that we have to go to LEARN, and not just to pop caps and make noise. We live in a world now where we tend to expect instant gratification, and there's probably less inclination to stick with something that doesn't come easily than there may well ever have been in the past. Our forebears really didn't HAVE the opportunity to go to something else, because they simply didn't have all the diversions we do today. But for those who'll stick with it, and learn to deal with the initial frustrations, it'll pay off, and it'll pay off VERY satisfyingly.

Find somebody who makes you a better shooter to shoot with, and that'll usually be someone who is a better shot than you. Sacrificing your ego for some real talent is one of the best tradeoffs a man can make these days. Pay attention to his shooting. Does his hand or barrel move when he squeezes off? How does he hold the gun? What differences can you note in the way he does it and how you do it? All these things, and more, are what make a person of average ability become a really great marksman, and it does NOT come overnight. But Lordy, how it pays off in the end! And besides, what more important thing do you have to do at the range, anyway??? Learning makes the whole range experience more enjoyable, and more profitable. In rest shooting, try different ways to rest the barrel, and different grip strengths. You'll really be teaching yourself what works for YOU! And there's no other way, really, to become a really fine and consistent shot, at least that I've found. Persistence really pays off, but ONLY if we pay attention, and learn.

[Digital Dan]

Well said sir, thank you for that.

Some years ago I set upon trying to explain some of the nuance discussed below and maybe it is worth a reprint here. Discussion on the chaos of interior ballistics as I see it. You are free to disagree and I welcome the dialog. It matters not whether one is shooting a handgun or rifle, it's all part of the package. If one pursues accuracy (putting the bullet in the X) then precision (consistency) is required.

Between the Trigger and Muzzle.

Somewhere in my life, decades ago, I sat down one day with my brother's Crossman pellet rifle and touched off the first shot of my life. Around 1952 or there abouts, on the shore of Lake Reedy near Frostproof, Florida. That put me somewhere near the age of four, and though I recall very little else of that time that was one of the clear memories. Heart beating hard, trying so hard to make sure I did it RIGHT and hit the tin can upon which I drew a fine bead. I was amazed by how unruly the sights were, bobbing and weaving as if possessed by devils! The trigger had a lot of creep...I pulled and pulled and pulled, until finally came a flat 'fe-whap' and I felt the gun jolt in my small hands and felt too a slight nudge in my shoulder. Even air rifles have some recoil, and it left a lasting impression! I haven't the slightest clue whether I hit the can or not. I'm sure at the time I knew, but time has a way...

A great many moons passed before it occurred to me to ask "What is going on in there?" By then I was a teen ager armed with at .410, an avid collector of every shooting periodical I could get my hands on, and Gawd Almighty I really wanted a Weatherby rifle. All of them actually, but I was reading that they KICKED. A whole lot. It was scary stuff, wondering if I was man enough to handle the vaunted .460 while only in the 8th grade. The family budget kept me out of trouble however.

When one sallies forth to spew lead across the landscape there is at hand the culmination of centuries of technological evolution being employed to do so. Modern steels, brass alloy, lead and copper alloys, finely formed wood or synthetic stocks, smokeless powder and non-corrosive primers. For all of that the fundamentals have not changed since the advent of black powder and the day somebody realized that stuff could hurt you! Soon enough it was realized that the blast from the powder could be contained and directed, and there was in fact a way to overcome armor, and keep pike wielding horsemen at distances commensurate with longevity.

Imagine a matchlock in your hands in that day, an armored knight bearing down with lance or sword drawn and murder in his eyes as you lever the wick down to the touchhole of your weapon. How long was that delay before came that satisfying boom, and shroud of smoke? No doubt for some it was too long, and therein if found the reason we have centerfire and rimfire cartridges today. They are reliable and quick, but they are not instantaneous. Nor is your lock time instant, or the bullet's travel down the barrel. It all takes TIME. In that brief span measured in milliseconds from the time your sear releases and the bullet exits the muzzle there is one heck of a lot of activity happening in that thing called a gun. Here it is, A to Z.

Virtually every firearm in existence fires from a stressed condition, that stress being concentrated in the lock, or bolt...whatever mechanism is used to initiate the firing sequence. There are two exceptions to my knowledge, one being arms with electronic ignition, the other being old cannons and such that use touchholes. Steel is elastic. It bends under stress, no matter how small. The tension in your lock actually deforms the structure in and around the mechanism, and when it is released by the trigger you begin multiple action/reaction scenarios that cause your firearm to relax in one sense, yet develop other stresses as the sequence progresses. Your firearm begins to come alive, to move in several axis at this point, and this is the first instance where uniformity in the manner you address the firearm generates consistency or lack thereof in regards to accuracy. Whether a pistol or rifle, you need to develope a consistent manner of holding the arm, a constant cheek weld(for rifles), constant pressure in the grip of one or both hands. It is not that the firearm is aimed precisely at the target...it isn't. It is aimed at a point wherein the resultant of all vectors in the firing sequence lead to the bullet striking the desired point of aim. Consistency in all regards is the key to accuracy.

All that and the firing pin hasn't even dented the primer? Oh Lord, have mercy! OK, we'll let that happen now. It takes....X/Y parts of a millisecond. Keep track of this time, add it to the others I'll mention along the way. I shan't describe the various types of triggers, or the different lock times found in sporting arms here. There are many, and they carry different influence on many levels. When your firing pin strikes the primer it dents the cup and crushes a mixture of chemical between the primer cup and an internal structure known as the anvil. For rimfires it does the same by pinching the same mixture that is imbedded in the rim, crushing it. The mixture is an explosive, not a propellant like your charge of smokeless powder. It is sensitive to pressure, and when crushed it detonates in a form called deflagration.
It shatters and spews forth into the powder charge thru a small hole in the bottom of the cartridge case called the flash hole. Depending on a great many variables the flash of this detonation will impinge on the charge for up to 1.5' or perhaps a bit more. It is not the detonation that ignites your powder charge for smokeless propellant is just that, a propellant. It is NOT sensitive to shock. It is however quite sensitive to HEAT, and this is what the primer delivers. Quite a bit of it. This heat is labeled brisance; some primers are relatively cool, some quite hot, thus we have primers with low to high brisance and they are used in different scenarios as appropriate.

Add a small fraction of time to your stop watch and read on. Pressure is being raised in the cartridge by the burst of the primer, your gun is getting another dose of jiggles from this event, and powder is starting to get very angry. There are a great many different cartridge designs out there, they come in all sizes and shapes. What is important here is their volume. The primer has initiated a cascade of conversion from chemical potential to kinetic energy, and this happens quite quickly. Heat leads to ignition, which increases pressure and leads to more heat and so forth until finally the bullet begins to move. The primer may have actually generated up to 2500 psi within the confines of your cartridge, but now the powder is getting involved, and you are rushing headlong into a great cacophony of stresses, action/reaction events. How fast this occurs is largely dependent upon how much volume there is in your cartridge, how much powder, what its quickness is in that environment etc etc....

Did I mention the gymnastics your cartridge is going thru at this point, when you are trying your best to 'hold her steady'? Well, you might be of a mind that your cartridge fills the chamber and all is snug in that world. You could not be more mistaken. There is an industry standard for each cartridge manufactured today. This standard is set by SAAMI and it details pressure limits for each case on the counter. It also details maximum and minimum dimensions as well, and since you can't put 5 pounds of sugar in a 2 pound bag everybody plays along with those STANDARDS. They define maximum and minimum dimensions, an important precept. Within these parameters gun builders and ammo makers are free to run wild as they build these wondrous things. So, your gun can have a MAXIMUM dimension chamber, yet shoot MINIMUM size ammo. Or vise versa. Therein is what we call tolerance. Not unlike you tolerating the idiosyncrasies of your better half, guns do the same. It is a given that your ammo is smaller than your chamber or else it would not fit. So, when your firing pin strikes the primer, it forces the casing forward against the rim or the shoulder region of the chamber, even if only a very few thousandths of an inch. When your primer pops, it wants to run away from all that trouble and to the extent that space between breech face and cartridge head allows, it will back out of the case to bridge that gap. Well, your cartridge case is not going to take that laying down, and as the pressure rises it will expand and fill the void itself thus recapturing the primer, sometimes squashing it a little as it forces it to re-seat in the primer hole. Remember all that jiggling I referred to earlier? Hang on, it's gonna get a whole lot worse!

Pressure is building in the cartridge and the bullet has started to move. Remember that steel is elastic, and so is your brass cartridge. It is beginning to expand, and as it does so it presses firmly to the chamber walls and transfer the effects of that pressure to the chamber region of your firearm. The chamber begins to EXPAND. The bullet that just started to move has by now met the spiral grooves in the barrel and the engraving process of the rifling has begun. But wait, there seems to be a fly in the ointment here. It has only moved a scant .010 to .025" when the process begins, yet the shank of the bullet is still within the grasp of the casing. The case neck has not quite gotten into the swing of things vis-a-vis expansion and it is still trying it's best to hang on to the bullet. That's what it was hired to do. One force trying to resist the other's imperative to twist the bullet. The result is a very brief battle that leaves the first impressions of engraving on the bullet smeared a little, a bit overdone if you will. Yes, the rifling wins, but there is a price to be paid, and it is stress as well as deformation on our lovely pristine shiny bullet.


By now all this corruption is getting chaotic. The receiver and action is resonating from all the noise, the barrel is swelling, your bullet is getting kicked in the butt, and as a result beginning to swell and shorten. This is called obturation. It is a quick and brief process that affects all bullets except perhaps the likes of monolithic solids and the Barnes line of solid copper bullets. Your barrel, which was previously drooping a wee bit(remember, steel is elastic. Your barrel droops, trust me.) is getting a bit tweaked by all the commotion and is starting to vibrate, not unlike a tuning fork. Oh, by the way, your gun is starting to recoil as well. Action/reaction. Some say that the bullet has left the barrel before the gun is affected by recoil, and that is just plain hooey. Basic physics rules the roost...action/reaction. The bullet it beginning to turn at it moves down the barrel, and that imparts a torquing effect on the barrel, which is connected to the gun. All of this causes vibration, and the barrel will begin to move as a sin wave, albeit in very small dimensions of displacement. By now we have kissed the best part of a couple of milliseconds goodbye and the clock is still ticking. Your bullet is about 3" down the barrel where the gun experiences the peak of pressure from the powder charge. For the .243 Winchester that is an amount in excess of 50,000 PSI. The chamber and barrel throat are taking a lot of heat and pressure, bulging as much as they will during the shot. Depending on what internal stresses exist, or what pressures are exerted on the action and barrel of a rifle by the stock your firearm is now in full rage, the barrel deep into the throes of sin wave lash that may or may not be vertical, horizontal or even stable. It all depends. Let me take a brief moment to add a conceptual thought or two. Sound travels at about 19,000 fps in steel. The recoil impulse induces a vertical vibration in the barrel that is of the nature of one cycle per barrel time of the bullet. By the time the latter is in play your rifle has already experienced about 4 cycles of vibrations within the steel structure. Vagaries of bedding are the source of most lateral movement in your barrel although such things as the ejection port cut out in the receiver contribute to this. On with the ramble: Your shoulder hasn't told you yet, but it is getting the snot knocked out of it by your rifle. As slow as the firing sequence is, your neural net is a lot slower. Your bullet will be a good ways to it's target before your brain registers that the light has changed.

Remember the slightly bruised bullet? The one with the engraving gone astray, the one that got shorter and fatter? Well, the carnage continues. Your barrel is NOT glass smooth. It has tool marks inside. If this is not the first shot of the day it also has carbon, copper or lead fouling, and powder residue in front of it as well. It suffers as it rips thru this ballistic junk yard, it gets scratched, heated, accelerated under the force of thousands of Gees, and you, you have the audacity to expect it to hit something?

That bullet which was never perfectly balanced about the central axis is rip snortin' down the tube, accelerating faster than a Somali after a fat chicken, being deformed and reformed as it goes, held in alignment with the bore center even though it seeks balance on its center of gravity. It is still accelerating, still torquing the barrel and by now its eccentric CG is adding its own little note to your tuning fork. You want to hit what, how far away? http://www.crater-outdoors.net/phpBB3/images/smilies/rotflmo.gif Joking aside, the answer to all of this is CONSISTENCY in all aspects of the shot. That your barrel is pointed slightly askew of point of impact is not relevant other than that is what is required to juggle all the vibrations coursing thru the firearm. IF, the same thing happens over and over, it is not unreasonable to expect the same result is it? We'll not worry too much if it is a bad result and you keep repeating the process expecting a new result. Your condition is known as insanity.

Along about now you have used up somewhere between one and three milliseconds, depending on the nature of your gun. It's rattling like a Model A on a washed out dirt road, the barrel is doing Brahm's 5th, and maybe the scope eyepiece has just contacted your eyebrow, or at least gotten very close. As the bullet nears the muzzle we find that the pressure inside has fallen greatly. From a peak of near 25-30 tons per square inch it is now closer to 10,000 psi and falling quickly, even though the bullet still accelerates. This tremendous drop in such a short distance is a reflection of what we call expansion ratio. Even before you fired the gun there existed a predetermined ratio of volume in the cartridge to volume within the cartridge and barrel. The volume of the cartridge is self explanatory for the most part. Fill an empty case with water to the level where the base of the bullet would be if it were seated...that is the case volume. Add the complete volume of the throat and bore to that and you have the pieces and parts that make up the Expansion Ratio. It says a lot about what you can expect from a gun/cartridge combination, and to large degree, its efficiency. Some cases have very high ratios, such as the .22 long rifle. It can reach or exceed a 38:1 ER, and is characterized by low report, modest velocity and it does that with a very small amount of powder. It is a cartridge capable of killing most of the creatures on the planet, and has likely already done that several times over. On the other hand, there are cartridges such as the 7mm STW which can have very low ERs due to it's large case capacity and relatively small bore size. Low ERs are characteristically high pressure, high velocity, powder consuming monsters that are VERY rich in muzzle blast when fed a full charge of powder. I'm not supporting one over the other, it's just the way things are. Another facet of this equation is that low ERs tend to have very high pressure at the point where the bullet leaves the muzzle. Numbers between 15-20 KPSI are not unknown. It does not, in and of itself cause inaccuracy, but it does make for a circumstance very unforgiving of improperly crowned muzzles. It also contributes a fair amount to that tap the scope gave you on the forehead a millisecond ago...the one your brain is still unaware of. Don't worry, epiphany is on the way, coming around turn 4.

Finally, your bullet leaves the muzzle, leaps forth unto the clear blue sky and begins the second leg of its journey. This is its entry into the world of exterior ballistics, and that will comprise a later chapter. By now you're starting to feel the results of your trigger pull, just a vague subconscious awareness. Your lower brain is deciding whether to shoot you full of endorphins or let you suffer in mortal agony. Best of luck!

Gents, I welcome all comments and criticism....THE FIRING LINE IS HOT!!!

http://www.varmintal.com/amode.htm
http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/links/links.html (http://www.eskimo.com/%7Ejbm/links/links.html)

[44man]

Dan, loved it and the way you toss in the little jokes brings a chuckle.
Lets go back to the .44 for a while. Loading practices are much more important in a revolver. What you do changes all the things said by Dan. Boolit movement with all kinds of tension and crimps changes the internal ballistics from shot to shot. You need to transverse the throat, gap and cone and engage the rifling with a boolit moving pretty good by now.
The handgun is dependent on barrel rise and torque more then any other gun but some think the boolit has left so they want the six gun to "roll" and take all kinds of holds that can't control the gun at all. A good revolver is built with some play in the cylinder but guys hate it so they spend buckets of change to get it customized and tightened to show friends how it doesn't wiggle at all. Now if even a few thousandths off, the boolit slams the cone off center, it will wear the cone and the throats off center and make a crooked start. "I fit a Belt Mountain pin so tight it is perfect". WRONG! You are shooting at the inside of your gun.
Now a .44 can have a very harsh recoil and short barrels are worse and a lighter gun is not pleasant. You want pretty, shiny grips or a hump on the back so it pushes straight but soon you find that you can't hold it the same. Every day I read so many wrong things about revolvers it is frustrating.

[44MAG#1]

I'll say this MR. Digital can do a good write up. My hat, if I had one on, is off to him.