Looking to build a Minnie rifle

[Ayetter]

In .45 or .50 what rifling twist and depth will work and a source for 1" across flats barrels thanks for help

[stubshaft]

Is there a reason that you are not going with the standard .58?

[10 ga]

58 is good for minnies but to truly get the best for minnies build a .69. The 69 was built before the 58 and there were plenty used in "The Great War of Northern Aggression". If it's a smoothie they are wonderful shooting buck-n-ball loads and I'm sure they did plenty of damage on massed phalanx of riflemen. I do believe the Stonewall Jackson incident involved a 69. 10 ga

[Ayetter]

Building another underhammer and I have moulds in these calibers not interested in building a historical piece have had rifle muskets before, this is for open class competition in the Wisconsin muzzleloader association and yes I know that roundball guns generally shoot better within 100 yards this is for my enjoyment

[ian45662]

I could tell you how i set up my 58 cal rifle to shoot minie balls. Problem with doing it in 50 cal is that there probably isn't anyone who knows what the beSt twist would be. As far as roundball guns shooting better than mini ball guns at 100..... I guess you have never seen a 58 cal rifle with a 1:60 or 1:72 progressive depth rifle shoot a 510 grain minie. The right minie rifle will shoot with any roundball gun at that distance and even buck the wind very well


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[Ayetter]

What about rifling depth Oregon barrels will make barrels to any specification

[johnson1942]

ian45662, there are several people who can tell you the right twist, im one of them. tell me the length of bullet and i will do the match for the perfect twist for that bullet. cal. and length of bullet and again, i will do the math.

[ian45662]

If you would I have 2 I would like for you to give me numbers on. Both 58 cal. The first weighs in at 345 grains and is .875" long. The second weighs in @ 508 grains and is 1.37"
Long. Both are hollow base. While I have your ear if you would please give me the twist that A 45 cal paper patch bullet should be if the bullet weighs 537 grains and is 1.51" long.


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[ian45662]

What about rifling depth Oregon barrels will make barrels to any specification

Bobby Hoyt can cut you any kind of barrel you want. What I could recommend or at least what I use are barrels with 3 lands and grooves that's are progressive depth. When loading the minie you can feel that it is snug up in the muzzle but gets a little easier to push when it starts going down the bore. Lands and grooves on my guns are of equal width.


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[johnson1942]

weight of a bullet means nothing compared to the length. the length and the cal. size is the numbers that determine the accuracy with the right twist. if these bullets were solid base the numbers would not change at all. the .58 cal with the .875 long bullet the best twist is 1/46. the .58 cal with the length of 1.37 is 1/30 twist rate. that is a very long 45 cal bullets and would do well to maybe 500 yards with a 1/18 twist but to make this bullet really shoot at all distances you need a 1/16 twist barrel. now if you build a gun for this bullet at 1/16 twist remember that anything below 500 grains would most likely not shoot but a 1/16 twist would make a ideal barrel for this bullet. there are 2 brothers in the midwest who shoot a lot of 500 yard matches with 45 cal 1/20 twist and 45 1/18 twist guns they win most matches with a bullet that weighs just 385 grains paperpatched. the reason is the bullet they use has a very long tapered sharp point and a very deep hollow base. they have to shoot it fairly hard. they use a little silver in the lead tin mix to get the hardness they want. the length of this bullet is the same length as a 500 grain solid base round nosed bullet. they drive the old timers nuts as the old timers dont realize the length of the bullet is the factor to the twist, not the weight. hope all this helps.

[ian45662]

weight of a bullet means nothing compared to the length. the length and the cal. size is the numbers that determine the accuracy with the right twist. if these bullets were solid base the numbers would not change at all. the .58 cal with the .875 long bullet the best twist is 1/46. the .58 cal with the length of 1.37 is 1/30 twist rate. that is a very long 45 cal bullets and would do well to maybe 500 yards with a 1/18 twist but to make this bullet really shoot at all distances you need a 1/16 twist barrel. now if you build a gun for this bullet at 1/16 twist remember that anything below 500 grains would most likely not shoot but a 1/16 twist would make a ideal barrel for this bullet. there are 2 brothers in the midwest who shoot a lot of 500 yard matches with 45 cal 1/20 twist and 45 1/18 twist guns they win most matches with a bullet that weighs just 385 grains paperpatched. the reason is the bullet they use has a very long tapered sharp point and a very deep hollow base. they have to shoot it fairly hard. they use a little silver in the lead tin mix to get the hardness they want. the length of this bullet is the same length as a 500 grain solid base round nosed bullet. they drive the old timers nuts as the old timers dont realize the length of the bullet is the factor to the twist, not the weight. hope all this helps.

How do you think the long 58 cal bullet would shoot in a 1:60 twist?


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[Good Cheer]

Some people want a barrel made to use a specific bullet design.
I want flexibility, like with a .46 or .52 and fast enough but not too fast of twist.
When shooting a fast twist .40 I realized that ultra-heavy bullets aren't near as useful as medium weight and round ball.
So now that's my theory on front stuffers, like TC had a great idea but still went too slow on their twist.

[johnson1942]

a .58 cal 1/60 twist will shoot a patched round ball very very well and be consistant in placing the ball the same every time.

[ian45662]

It will shoot the 1.36" minie and the .875 minie extremely well. I have never shot roundball from my muskets that have a 1:60 twist but I don't think a roundball would be any better than what the minies are doing out of them. The 1.51" long paper patch bullet I do shoot out of a 1:16 twist 45-70. Slow twist barrels in the 58 cal muskets will shoot minies very well. Whitacre who is one of the premier barrel makers for minies makes barrels with a 1:72. They win a lot of medals as do the 1:60s

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[ian45662]

Some people want a barrel made to use a specific bullet design.
I want flexibility, like with a .46 or .52 and fast enough but not too fast of twist.
When shooting a fast twist .40 I realized that ultra-heavy bullets aren't near as useful as medium weight and round ball.
So now that's my theory on front stuffers, like TC had a great idea but still went too slow on their twist.

The 1:60 twist is pretty flexible. It will shoot the 345 grain hollow base semi wadcutter all and the 510 grain big minie. Probably the most popular twist in the north south skirmish association. Some people love the 1:72 twist also.


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[johnson1942]

they dont win them at 1000 to 1200 yards.

[ian45662]

Who shoots minies that far? Dont most if not all long range muzzleloading matches specify that the projectile must be solid base? What kind of guns and barrels are these people using?


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[ian45662]

What about rifling depth Oregon barrels will make barrels to any specification

If you have a phone number for Bobby Hoyt he may be able to give you the info you want and make a barrel for you. I believe the rifling is rather shallow on minie rifles especially when compared to a roundball gun. I would be curious to see what he says


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[Ballistics in Scotland]

You won't go far wrong with Greenhill's formula, which is that for a bullet of approximately the specific gravity of a hard alloy bullet, the bullet length in calibres multiplied by the twist in calibres should equal 150 or less, although in practice 200 will often stabilise a bullet. You might do a bit better with a Minié because of the peripheral weight distribution, but not much.

I don't believe you need anything like a 20in. twist for any reasonably conventional Minié bullet. That was the twist commonly used for shooting to 1000 and 1200 yards with bullets in the 500gr. region, which sometimes had a flat or only slightly cupped base.

www.trackofthewolf.com is a useful source of barrels, but they don't seem to have just what you want in 1in. octagon.

[johnson1942]

150 in the green hill formula will get you to 300 yards with very good accuracy but in practice some of the bullets tumbled after 300 yards, some made it to 500 yards but not good at all at 1000 to 1400 yards. it has been rethought in the last few years and both in round ball and cast bullets 120 has been more consistant in extreme accuracy at long distances. when you use 120 in the green hill formula for a roundball the gun will shoot accurate with less powder and much more consistant. if one was a 100 yard shooter and never ever intended to shoot beyond that or even 200 yards a 150 in the green hill formula would be the best. a long time ago i had a mold made for my 1/22 twist 45/70 using the 150 number. at 200 yards off of a bench i could get consistant groups at nickel size. when i shot past 350 yards it tumbled and had no group at all. i have since made 3 molds with the number 120 and they shoot very well out as far as i can see. i never shoot in matches but if i were to do a 100 yard match with that gun i would get out that old mold and cast up some but for no other kind of shooting. major greenhill did a wonderful service to the shooting world when he come up with his formula, the math never lies.

[ian45662]

Does anyone shoot 58 cal minies at 1000 yards competitively or otherwise. I am very interested to see what equipment they are using.


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[johnson1942]

if you made a barrel with the right twist and the type of lands a grooves for a mini bullet it would shoot that far. also i would recommend that the cupped base have a little thicker rim or skirt on it and maybe not so deep. a nice round nose like a 45 70 government 500 grain bullet. make the barrel at least 36 inches long and build the gun right and there is no reason with the proper sights that it wouldnt shoot that far and shoot well. you could put a well made barrel on a spring field and make it a real sleeper. i have a sleeper 1/2 stock mountain man rifle, tacks and all. the barrel is 50 cal and 36 inches long. it is a 1/28 twist and shoots a 535 grain pp bullet like a house a fire at any range. looks like a round ball gun but it isnt. i think it is fun to do this type of thing and out shoot anyone around you with there standard twist barrels.

[ResearchPress]

Does anyone shoot 58 cal minies at 1000 yards competitively or otherwise. I am very interested to see what equipment they are using.
Nearest we get in the UK is 800 yards. The Muzzle Loaders Association of Great Britain holds National Rifle Championship matches for Enfield rifles at 200, 300, 500 and 600 yards. A club I am in holds an annual match for Enfield, the aggregate of 15 shots at each distance 600 & 800 yards.

I have some information on my blog: Long Range Shooting with the Military Muzzle Loading Rifle
(http://riflesandmarksmanship.blogspot.co.uk/p/mmlr-in-great-britain.html)
David

[ian45662]

Very Interesting thanks for posting!! When someone is shooting the 1853 enfield at that range are they using the traditional 1:77 twist barrel that the 3 band enfield used or are they using a different twist. How to the bullets out of the slower twist preform against the faster twist barrels of the shorter rifles? What kind of powder charges are you guys using and how long are the minies that you guys are shooting?


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[ResearchPress]

The rifles used are a good mix of originals or Parker-Hale repros. with appropriate twist to the pattern. P.53 aren't often used but do come out to play now and again. I shoot an original short rifle. Difficult to come up with any good comparisons between the 'three-band' and 'two-band', by far the most used are the short rifles. With the rainbow like trajectory and no windage adjustment on the sights, the skill comes in reading conditions and aiming off. Shooting by the way is prone with just the military two point sling for support. My bullet is from an RCBS mould that was opened out a little so it cast bullets that fit my barrel. Some have had modified base plugs made so that thicker skirts are cast - loads vary 75-90 grains of Swiss No. 3 (2f) or 4 (1.5F) I would think typical.

David

[ian45662]

That's a pretty stout load!! What kind of groups are you guys getting st 1k?


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[ResearchPress]

The standard NRA fullbore (highpower) targets are used which are 10' wide by 6' high for 800 yards. Getting all 15 shots on target is done now and again, but best I've done is about 80% hits. This is open sights and sling only support, shooting prone. No cheek wrests to help head position are permitted (unlike in target rifle events). Difficulties are when wind starts to shift to head or tail - its ever so easy for bullets to go just over or fall just short of the target. In the 1860s when the Rifle Volunteers (akin to US National Guard) were shooting competitively, Enfields were not commonly used beyond 600 yards. In the NRA Queens Prize, the first stage was fired out to 600 yards with Enfields, then the second stage qualifiers fired at distances out to 1000 yards with Whitworth rifles (excepting one year when Rigby were used) in .451 calibre.

It's an interesting exercise with Enfields - if the target is considered as an artillery crew or advancing column of troops then they would be suffering. There again we're shooting at a known distance, at a white target with black aiming mark and no one shooting back!

David

[peter72]

A question, Im interested in Pedersoli's Wurttembergischen.
Its a .54 with a 1.55 and a recommended minie mold of .54u, 39 inch barrel. Is that enough info to tell if that would stabilise ok? I'm no expert but it's a lot faster than other Pedersoli minie rifles.

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[PtMD989]

Not trying to hijack the thread. Would the Lee Minie 50 cal,360 grain, at .940 inches length be a good choice for my 50 cal BD with 1 in 28 twist with about a 22 1/2 in barrel?


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[johnson1942]

a 1/32 twist would be ideal for that bullet. how ever its not a long stretch to 1/28 twist. try it and see. the 22 and 1/2 inch barrel wont affect the accuracy at all as the mini bullet should to bumped up in the first 11 inches. the problem with bullets that are spinning too fast for their length is that they can gryo once in a while that means like a spinning gryo it suddenly take off left or right as the bullet flies. if you shooting really good groups with this gun then suddenly once in a while you get a bad flier that is what is happening. you may not get fliers with that gun. that bullet should shoot good in a lyman hawken 50 cal with a 1/32 twist.

[PtMD989]

Thanks, that's good to hear. Get to buy another mold. Oh yeah. The obsession continues. The occasional flyer is more likely me rather than my gun. Haha. Like when my wife calls my cellphone at the moment I decide to squeeze the trigger.


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[Ayetter]

UPDATE last Friday finished my latest underhammer in .45 13/16 barrel from Green Mountain. Load was 50 grs 3fg with a .433 ball resulted in a 2" group at 50 yards off bench. Next load was same powder but a 250gr Minie ball group was same but 6" low. Conclusion, roundball barrels will do just fine no need to order special barrels.

[johnson1942]

try it at 150 yards and i would be very interested in the results. i am truly not trying to be a jerk but 50 yards is not a good test. may be you live in a wooded area and hunt only at 50 yards but that does not test a rifle. it would really be good to us all if we heard what they do at 150 yards. that is the average distance a deer stops to look at you out in the open. the head of our muzzleloader club said this. you could put that bullet in backwards and still get your deer at 50 yards with any muzzleloader. again, would love the results at a range it is really used at.