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Oklahoma Rebel
03-30-2017, 10:27 AM
I am going to get a 35 whelen this summer, a rem. 700. there are two guns I am looking at, my favorite ( at least for looks and having iron sight from the factory.) is their bdl, but I would have to get a 30'06 and send it to JES to bore it to 35 whelen. which I have no problem with, I trust him. the other is the cdl and is already cvhambered in 35 whelen, but I would have to have the sights installed (135$) and the thing is it is a 1:12 twist barrel and I was wondering is that's too fast for 250-280 gr boolits (max 300... maybe). JES charges 225 to bore the barrel out so it would be close in price either way. so my main question is will cast boolits perform ok with that fast of a twist?. Thanks,Travis

Outpost75
03-30-2017, 10:33 AM
A 12" twist is the standard twist for the.358 Winchester. It is not "too fast" for 280-300 grain bullets, and in fact will stabilize them at subsonic velocities below 1000 fps if you want to have a low recoil load with ASTOUNDING penetration. It would also perform well with the lighter 200-250 grain bullets, but would be at its best with those 270+

You might imagine what a bullet like this one would do when well stabilized at about 1000 fps with 9-10 grains of Bullseye in the .35 Whelen, mild, quiet and would shoot through a moose lengthwise!

192170

Larry Gibson
03-30-2017, 10:46 AM
The 12" twist with those long bore riding nosed cast bullets will limit accuracy to 2200 fps, maybe 2300 fps. If you get the rebore I'd suggest you have JES give it a 14" twist with a .348 bore giving .005 deep grooves for a .358 groove diameter. If you're going to push those heavy cast bullets (they have lots of inertia) the deeper grooves will hang onto them better and give better accuracy.

Larry Gibson

Oklahoma Rebel
03-30-2017, 11:02 AM
yeah, that's what I was going to do if I go that route, any suggestion on 3 or 4 groove? and yeah, I would like to be able to shoot a 250gr at 2400 or so, is that to much to ask?

Oklahoma Rebel
03-30-2017, 11:03 AM
thanks a lot!

Yodogsandman
03-30-2017, 11:26 AM
I always thought that Remington factory barrels were 1-16 twist. Does the CDL have a custom maker barrel?

Oklahoma Rebel
03-30-2017, 12:23 PM
not sure, but I really do not think so, theres no other name attached to it, like a lipsey's ruger or whatever, you can find them on gunbroker, just look up remingto 700cdl, the bdl is the on I would get re bored if you want to see it to, I think you'll agree it is a better looking gun. also any thoughts on wether 3 or 4 line rifling is better for cast?

Shuz
03-30-2017, 12:24 PM
I have a Rem 700 CDL in .35 Whelen, and it has a 1:16 twist. It will NOT stabilize a Lyman 358009, which is a nominal 280g boolit. I have a custom 700 in .35 Whelen that has a 1:12 twist, and it stabilizes the 358009 very nicely and I achieve 2150 fps with a heat treated boolit. This 1:12 twist is the .35 Whelen I have successfully used for big game like moose and elk.

runfiverun
03-30-2017, 12:38 PM
my 12 twist 358 win. is the most boring cast rifle ever.
jacketed data, a boolit mold I got from our S&S, go shoot 1" groups, try higher powder amount, better,,, done.
it took longer to put the 3x9 scope on the thing.

5Shot
03-30-2017, 01:00 PM
The 12" twist with those long bore riding nosed cast bullets will limit accuracy to 2200 fps, maybe 2300 fps. If you get the rebore I'd suggest you have JES give it a 14" twist with a .348 bore giving .005 deep grooves for a .358 groove diameter. If you're going to push those heavy cast bullets (they have lots of inertia) the deeper grooves will hang onto them better and give better accuracy.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

If the 1:12 is limited to 2300fps, what do you gain with the 1:14? My 1:12 shoots very accurate, but I have yet to chrono the loads (max charge of WC852f and a 310 NOE Thumper). My current project will have a 1:14 PacNor.

5Shot
03-30-2017, 01:05 PM
A 12" twist is the standard twist for the.358 Winchester. It is not "too fast" for 280-300 grain bullets, and in fact will stabilize them at subsonic velocities below 1000 fps if you want to have a low recoil load with ASTOUNDING penetration. It would also perform well with the lighter 200-250 grain bullets, but would be at its best with those 270+

You might imagine what a bullet like this one would do when well stabilized at about 1000 fps with 9-10 grains of Bullseye in the .35 Whelen, mild, quiet and would shoot through a moose lengthwise!

192170

Have you tried this bullet with your load of Bullseye? I have the NOE Thumper, and I think I might give it a try. I don't think that 36-302D would feed out of the magazine in my gun (tried many different nose profiles, and the Thumper was the first one to feed without the nose hanging up on the back of the chamber).

Outpost75
03-30-2017, 02:42 PM
Years ago with a very similar Hoch bullet in a .35 Whelen I no longer own.

These days I use 9 grains of Bullseye in the .35/.30-30 with Accurate 36-245D with excellent results in a 16" twist.

192184

Larry Gibson
03-30-2017, 02:52 PM
Larry,

If the 1:12 is limited to 2300fps, what do you gain with the 1:14? My 1:12 shoots very accurate, but I have yet to chrono the loads (max charge of WC852f and a 310 NOE Thumper). My current project will have a 1:14 PacNor.

You gain another 200 - 300 fps up to 2500+ fps capability. This is because you are controlling the RPM which is very important when shooting cast at HV. Especially if the bullet has a long bore riding nose with minimal bearing surface. Getting up to 2500 fps gets the OP into the true potential range of the 35 Whelen cartridge. If staying down at 2000 - 2300 fps is all it will do accurately then might as well make it a 35 Remington or 358W. The OP is building a 35 Whelen so he might as well be able to use it, just my way of thinking is all.

Larry Gibson

Oklahoma Rebel
03-30-2017, 04:37 PM
for the 2200-2400 range with a 250ish grain boolit, what powder do yall use? I have heard 4350 is good

Outpost75
03-30-2017, 06:40 PM
for the 2200-2400 range with a 250ish grain boolit, what powder do yall use? I have heard 4350 is good

4350, 4064, RL15, Varget all good.

Oklahoma Rebel
03-30-2017, 10:01 PM
cool, thanks, guys, for all the tips! if you have any more or think of something I might need to know, I would appreciate it. thanks again!!! Travis

richhodg66
03-30-2017, 11:14 PM
You gain another 200 - 300 fps up to 2500+ fps capability. This is because you are controlling the RPM which is very important when shooting cast at HV. Especially if the bullet has a long bore riding nose with minimal bearing surface. Getting up to 2500 fps gets the OP into the true potential range of the 35 Whelen cartridge. If staying down at 2000 - 2300 fps is all it will do accurately then might as well make it a 35 Remington or 358W. The OP is building a 35 Whelen so he might as well be able to use it, just my way of thinking is all.

Larry Gibson

I'm about to pull the trigger on a rebore of a commercial Mauser to .35 Whelen and want it to shoot the Lyman 358009, nominally 283 grains. I also have the 358318, nominally 245 grains, the Lyman 358315 and NOE clone of the RCBS 200 grain FP. Would a 1 in 14 work with these? I kind of doubt I'd want to try to push that 358009 to 2500 FPS. Would the 1 in 12 be a better all around choice?

runfiverun
03-30-2017, 11:18 PM
reloader-19 gets me over 2300 without even trying.

5Shot
03-30-2017, 11:48 PM
I'm about to pull the trigger on a rebore of a commercial Mauser to .35 Whelen and want it to shoot the Lyman 358009, nominally 283 grains. I also have the 358318, nominally 245 grains, the Lyman 358315 and NOE clone of the RCBS 200 grain FP. Would a 1 in 14 work with these? I kind of doubt I'd want to try to push that 358009 to 2500 FPS. Would the 1 in 12 be a better all around choice?

1:14 is probably all you need. It will stabilize a 310 grain Woodleigh, and easily stabilize a 300 cast.

Oklahoma Rebel
03-31-2017, 03:56 PM
no, it would probably be an 1800fps round (the 280gr) when I was talking about hitting 2400-2500, I meant with the lighter boolits, 200-250grs. although the 358009 at 2500 sure would be a beast!

Oklahoma Rebel
03-31-2017, 03:57 PM
even that's probably a bit optimistic

runfiverun
03-31-2017, 06:55 PM
the 009 ain't happy at that speed it relies on the nose too much.
keep it around 19-2100 and you got a winning combination.

Oklahoma Rebel
03-31-2017, 10:18 PM
ok, I just got that number from an article, "35 whelen, best cartridge of the 20th century" by fryxell I believe. he had about 8-10 loads in the back and one was 62grs of ww760 for 24??fps w/358009

runfiverun
04-01-2017, 11:52 AM
it's achievable just not a great idea.


as an FYI.
right now Glen is working on a 6.5 project poking a 160gr boolit along at about 2000 fps. in a milsurp rifle.

Yodogsandman
04-02-2017, 12:00 PM
ok, I just got that number from an article, "35 whelen, best cartridge of the 20th century" by fryxell I believe. he had about 8-10 loads in the back and one was 62grs of ww760 for 24??fps w/358009

Could that have been Paco Kelly?

texasnative46
04-02-2017, 01:58 PM
OK Rebel,

Tell me how the .35 Whelen stacks up against the 9.3x62. = Personally, I've seen NO Whelen loads that even come close to equaling the factory loads for the 9.3x62, without "going crazy" with loads for the .35 that MAY be overtly dangerous in an ordinary rifle.

yours, tex

5Shot
04-02-2017, 05:16 PM
OK Rebel,

Tell me how the .35 Whelen stacks up against the 9.3x62. = Personally, I've seen NO Whelen loads that even come close to equaling the factory loads for the 9.3x62, without "going crazy" with loads for the .35 that MAY be overtly dangerous in an ordinary rifle.

yours, tex
Based on Nosler data for a 250 grain, they are equal, with their loads for the Whelen developing more, although meaningless, velocity.

Oklahoma Rebel
04-02-2017, 09:36 PM
yes it was a paco Kelly article. I was going to get a cz550 FS 9.3, the only thing is the short case neck, is there any problems with having the base of the boolit sticking into the case a little?

5Shot
04-02-2017, 10:24 PM
Some think so.

texasnative46
04-03-2017, 02:18 PM
5shot,

With 250 grain bullets, you are about 99% correct.

The .35 Whelen doesn't do well (in my experience) with the best big game bullet for the 9.3x62mm, IF your quarry is larger than WT. = 286 grain bullet in GCCB, JHP or SOLID.
(I find that using a Remington pump-rifle, there is considerable difference in killing power on big game with the 9.3x62 AND the 9.3 seems to recoil less in the same sort of rifle.)

My 9.3x62mm is a re-bored by JES, long-action Model 760 & it's one of my "treasures" that $$$$$$$ won't buy.
Fwiw, I was lucky enough to find it for about the same price as a "Plain Jane" Remington Model 760 from a small-town MS pawn shop. I was also lucky that a GREAT member of this form sold me an old-school REDFIELD 2.5X scope, too.
(That rifle will be THE rifle that will go to Africa with me next fall to try to take a Leopard, Cape Buffalo & other smaller game AND to Europe to hunt Red Deer, Moose & Russian Boar. ===> IF I miss with it, it's MY fault.)

Note: The .35 Whelen is NOT acceptable for "Dangerous Game" in Africa (& the ammunition is hard to find, other than in the USA & Canada).
IF a person plans to ever hunt in Europe or Africa it is MY OPINION that the 9.3x62 is THE caliber for big game hunting Worldwide.

yours, tex

5Shot
04-03-2017, 03:28 PM
Note: The .35 Whelen is NOT acceptable for "Dangerous Game" in Africa (& the ammunition is hard to find, other than in the USA & Canada).
IF a person plans to ever hunt in Europe or Africa it is MY OPINION that the 9.3x62 is THE caliber for big game hunting Worldwide.

yours, tex

I do agree with that point, but I will likely never make it to Africa. Even with a 280 grain Swift bullet, the Whelen can develop over 2500 fps, which is still right with the 9.3.

texasnative46
04-03-2017, 03:39 PM
5shot,

Inasmuch as prices for hunting in Eastern Europe & Africa are COMING DOWN (especially if you look carefully for "last minute hunts"), it's NOT a great deal more expensive to hunt there than to get a lease in TEXAS.
(A Red Deer "fair chase hunt" in Texas is almost as expensive as hunting the same trophy in Moldova, Ukraine or Russia & including LOTS of hunting for Russian Boar, wolves & other game in Eastern Europe.)

I am, as a retired soldier, FAR from RICH.

just my OPINION, tex

Yodogsandman
04-03-2017, 04:56 PM
The 310 gr NOE 360-310 FN "35 Thumper" boolit fits all of the base and gas check in the case neck of a 35 Whelem. I get about 2100 FPS with it for now, (still working on that) in a 1-12 twist.

5Shot
04-04-2017, 11:08 AM
5shot,

Inasmuch as prices for hunting in Eastern Europe & Africa are COMING DOWN (especially if you look carefully for "last minute hunts"), it's NOT a great deal more expensive to hunt there than to get a lease in TEXAS.
(A Red Deer "fair chase hunt" in Texas is almost as expensive as hunting the same trophy in Moldova, Ukraine or Russia & including LOTS of hunting for Russian Boar, wolves & other game in Eastern Europe.)

I am, as a retired soldier, FAR from RICH.

just my OPINION, tex

Maybe after I retire, but for now, taking a family vacation to Disney World (out of state) is about all I can afford and that took us many years to accomplish. Braces, cars, college, HEALTH CARE, etc. take all our $$$$. I went with the Whelen because I already had one. My next step will be a 375 HH - just because. I have no use for one, but think it would be awesome to have for the nostalgia. If, and it is a HUGE if, I ever make it to Africa, I'll be covered.

Sorry for the drift...

texasnative46
04-04-2017, 10:42 PM
5shot,

Well, I'm a "certified OF" at 70YY, an "addict" of Model 760 pump-rifles (I now have six of them from .244 Remington to, SOON, .400-BWI.), eat/sleep/dream of big-game hunting, am buying yet another one & this one will also go to JES to be converted to a .400 Brown-Whelen Improved.
(That is a THUMPER for sure, as it's the "ballistic twin" of the well-regarded .404 Jeffery's.)

ImVho, JES's work on such conversions is FLAWLESS. = I would take neither love nor money for my 760 in 9.3x62mm.

yours, tex

Oklahoma Rebel
04-06-2017, 10:15 AM
well, I think you have convinced me to stick with the cz550 9.3X62 does anyone know what the twist rate is on those? and also, id like to hear/ learn more about the short neck, and possibly having to seat the bullet past the neck into the cartridge a little. I do it in my sks with the lee 312-185, pretty much only the gas check sticks in, but I haven't had problems with that.

texasnative46
04-06-2017, 12:21 PM
Oklahoma Rebel,

I'm FAR from an expert on reloading (I'm MOSTLY a hunter/shooter, though I do reload a considerable number of GCCB for general hunting.) but every reloading expert (whom I know) says that the so-called "short neck" of the 9.3x62 Mauser is NOT really an actual problem.

IF I was not a left-handed guy, I would likely own a CZ550 and/or one of the VERY nice/used BA rifles that are coming into the USA from abroad.
(One vendor at the last "big" SA Gun Show had at least a dozen REALLY HANDSOME rifles from northern Europe for sale at attractive prices.)

YES, I know that CZ makes some BA rifles in LH but they are more money than I choose to spend for a hunting rifle. = The .375 H&H is over 1500.oo at MSRP, with a "street price" of about 1300.oo.
(Also. I'm "used to" shooting/hunting with my Remington Model 760 pump-guns.)

yours, tex

Oklahoma Rebel
04-06-2017, 04:12 PM
does anyone know the rate of twist in the CZ 550FS 9.3X62? I cant find it?

OuchHot!
04-06-2017, 04:52 PM
1:14 according to their website. I have not measured mine.

Oklahoma Rebel
04-06-2017, 05:42 PM
oh ok, I must have missed it. thank you for looking!

5Shot
04-06-2017, 06:35 PM
5shot,

Well, I'm a "certified OF" at 70YY, an "addict" of Model 760 pump-rifles (I now have six of them from .244 Remington to, SOON, .400-BWI.), eat/sleep/dream of big-game hunting, am buying yet another one & this one will also go to JES to be converted to a .400 Brown-Whelen Improved.
(That is a THUMPER for sure, as it's the "ballistic twin" of the well-regarded .404 Jeffery's.)

ImVho, JES's work on such conversions is FLAWLESS. = I would take neither love nor money for my 760 in 9.3x62mm.

yours, tex

A 375 or a 400 would be a nice addition!

Oklahoma Rebel
04-07-2017, 12:21 AM
I'm almost saved up for a cz550fs, I have decided to go with the 9.3X62, instead of the 35 whelen. what molds do you recommend for the 9.3? I figured on getting a combo mold from accurate with4 cavities,2 37-250B's
and 2 37-285C's

Yodogsandman
04-07-2017, 12:40 AM
Not quite the selection for 9.3 molds as 35 Whelen molds, eh?

texasnative46
04-07-2017, 12:58 PM
Yodogsandman,

Personally, as the 9.3x62 Mauser is primarily a HEAVY GAME rifle, I see LITTLE need for a lot of different molds, as long as a mold in 270-300 grains is readily available.
(The 9.3x62 is NOT an "all around caliber" imo but then neither is any other caliber. = My .30-06 pump-rifle, which "lives behind the seat on my PU", is as near to an "all-around rifle", as anything that I own.)

To SPEED UP casting those HEAVY boolits, I'd like a 9.3 GCCB mold in 4 or 6 cavity.

just my OPINION, tex

Oklahoma Rebel
04-07-2017, 01:21 PM
accurate has quite a selection of boolit molds for the 9.3, while maybe not as much as for some other calibers, its more than enough, and I haven't really searched around for other manufacturers. tex, while I see what you are saying, you could say the same of the whelen as well, and this is America, the bigger the better! lol. I do agree that 30-06 is as versatile as a cartridge could be, although for survival only I would go with a 22 mag

texasnative46
04-07-2017, 01:25 PM
5shot,

The planned conversion of the long-action .30-06 to .400BWI will have a custom mold made to cast the GCCB in @400 grain FN & will be loaded to about 2000FPS for REALLY BIG game. = A 400 grain GCCB in front of 60 grains of RL-15 yields 2100FPS, btw. - That's an Alaskan buddy of mine's "PET LOAD" for his .400BWI that is, "---- likely to try to run me over or EAT me.".
Roy T_________ says that at 200M that he can cover a 5-shot group out of his BA rifle with the palm of his hand.
(Even a T-Rex, IF such a creature were still roaming Planet Earth, could likely be taken with a .400BWI by a good shot.)

Note: About 15 years ago, I was contacted by a farmer up in NE Texas & he asked us to "remove" a VERY LARGE & NASTY-tempered Brahma-cross bull from his land.
I called my 1st cousin to handle that task. = Randy borrowed a HEAVY-caliber rifle (I think that it was a .45 caliber BA.) & took out the bull with ONE shot to the heart area. = GYD.
(The bull was thereafter "converted to hamburger meat" for the local Boy Scout camp's summer food larder. = We ate a LOT of burgers, spaghetti with meat sauce, meat loaf, etc. all that Summer at Camp Dierks AND that was a significant decrease in our "meat cost" for the camp budget, too.)

yours, satx

texasnative46
04-07-2017, 01:33 PM
Oklahoma Rebel,

In a SHTF/survival situation, I believe that I would reach for the .30-06 & loaded with my S-A War-era ".30-40 Krag equivalent" GCCB loads.
(I have LOTS of those & they will take out any 2-footed or 4-footed quarry that might present itself in a survival situation here in TX.)

just my OPINION, tex

Oklahoma Rebel
04-07-2017, 08:09 PM
my shtf gun is my sks loaded with lee 185gr #2 lyman/.5%copper .16.5 grains of rel.7 moves it out the barrel at an est.1500-1600fps. its a thumper

texasnative46
04-07-2017, 10:55 PM
Oklahoma Rebel,

Some years ago, CZ-USA said that their standard rate of twist was 1-12 for the CZ550.
(I'm not sure that that's correct for everything that they sell.)

yours, tex

OuchHot!
04-08-2017, 03:02 PM
I got the 1:14 off the web site but that could be vapor ware. I can measure mine if there is concern. I agree that I do not feel the need for a flock of molds as one can be loaded mild for training or hotter for fur. I have been a 35W and 358norma nut for longer but frankly find more components for the 9.3X62. In the era before numbskull Gore invented the internet, there were several j-types cataloged for .358 but they never seemed to be in stock in weights above 200gr. To me the 9.3 is more mainstream now that internet sales exist. just an opinion

texasnative46
04-08-2017, 03:33 PM
To All,

I wonder if anyone besides me is interested in a group buy for a 4 or 6 cavity GCCB mold in about 286 grain weight??

yours, satx

Cold Trigger Finger
04-09-2017, 02:39 PM
The big thing with the 400 Whelan . Which ever version you go with . Is the case diameter at the case body/shoulder junction. As long as it is .458-.460 it will be reliable. There is a huge , almost exaugstive thread on the 400 Whelan over on Accurate Reloading. ( Not trying to get anyone away from This sight !!! )
All the minutia of getting the 400 Whelan to overcome all the bad press concerning lack of headspace have been delt with in great depth . The 400 got a bad name , which continually got regurgitated due to someone making a reamer to the wrong shoulder diameter. The Original 400 Whelan was an improved case . With a .458 shoulder diameter. Not just a necked up 06 case.
The boys over there kinda get over the top on the original 400 Whelan/Petrov. But, the byproduct of it all has been A LOT of knowledge about that calibre being made to work perfectly from basically the 06 brass.
It is AMAZINGLY efficient. Pushing a 400 gr bullet @ 2150 fps with around 58 gr of 4895.
Considered The Gentleman's Big bore rifle cartridge.

texasnative46
04-09-2017, 09:49 PM
Cold Trigger Finger,

Fwiw, IF a person follows the case reforming directions in Chapter 37, BIG BORE RIFLES & CARTRIDGES, published 1991 by Wolfe Publishing (& has a QUALITY re-boring/re-chambering done by a GOOD company like JES), you'll have no headspace trouble.
(I know 4 hunters who have rifles in that caliber & re-bored by JES; all 4 are PLEASED with their rifles.)

Btw, a 400 grain GCCB in front of 58 grains of RL-15 yields (I'm told) about 2000FPS & 1/2 to 3/4 inch groups out at 100 yards.
(An old school chum has a Winchester Model 70 that has been converted to .400BWI. Todd says that he has NO trouble necking-up & fire-forming .30-06 brass & he says that he getting an average of 10 reloads per case for his CB loads.)

yours, tex

Cold Trigger Finger
04-09-2017, 10:16 PM
A friend of mine out at Illiamna Lake has one built on a 17 Enfield . iirc , it has a 23" barrel he is getting 2125 fps with the 400 gr Woodliegh with 58 maybe 58.5 gr 4895. And, Everyone reports the recoil and muzzle blast is very mild for a gun of that power level.
My 375 Whelan Ackley Improved is pushing 250 gr SGK and TTSXBT @ 2550 fps from the 19" barrel with 56 gr 4895. Pretty ideal moose rifle. Not any better than a 9.3×62 Mauser but this one has sentimental value to me.

Cold Trigger Finger
04-09-2017, 10:45 PM
I want to get a mold for mine. Something in the 280-310 gr weight range. Gas Checked. Mostly to be used for plinking but, ya never know. Being able to make brass from all kinds of factory brass is AWESOME !! I would really like a 400 Whelan. Of one flavour or other. Get a mold with somewhere around a 65% meplat in a LFN shape. GC of course as I would run them around 2,000 fps or somewhere where I got the best accuracy. 1 in 14" twist.

Cold Trigger Finger
04-09-2017, 11:00 PM
I pretty much only use crf bolt rifles. So fire forming is pretty easy for me. Anneal the brass . Prime, charge with 20 gr of Unique. Dump in 1cc of corn cob tumble media and stick a twist of paper towel. Bang, Fire formed brass.

5Shot
04-11-2017, 01:29 AM
To All,

I wonder if anyone besides me is interested in a group buy for a 4 or 6 cavity GCCB mold in about 286 grain weight??

yours, satx

For which bore?

texasnative46
04-11-2017, 11:45 AM
5shot,

While I was talking about the 286 grain GCCB for 9.3x62mm, I'd be "IN" for one in 9.3mm AND/OR for .400BWI. = Such a mold would certainly "speed up" making GCCB for my "big bores".
(The .400BWI uses the same boolit as the old .405WCF, which weighs about 400 grains.)

yours, satx