Keyhole issue, and what I found out

[Candjur]

So, being new to casting and reloading, I recently got all the necessary equipment to do both.

I did not research the Lee TL designs well enough to find out that the 356-124-2R mold is (apparently) a problematic mold for most 9mm handguns.

I cast my boolits from range scrap, and powder coat in eastwood powder. I size them in a lee 356 sizer.
I use the standard Lee 9mm die set with 3 dies.
I shoot the H&K P30L with a tactical barrel.

My first tests was, and still is, ALL over the place. Major keyhole problem, and no precision whatsoever.

I tried to remove the Lee FCD to no effect.
I then tried to load the cast boolits without sizing at all, still no joy. [smilie=b:
I then slugged the HK and found that it measured out at 0.359 - 0.360!! Holy cow!

The boolits I pulled after seating them where swaged down to 0.355 - 0.356 - no wonder they where all over the place.

I have ordered a S&W 38 expand plug for the Lee 9mm powder through expand die to avoid the brass casing acting as a sizer.

Now - is there anything else I should do with a 9mm bore the size of a battleship cannon? I would like them to hit the rifling at 0.359 - 0.36+. I have concerns that the TL356-124-2R has to little surface to grip the polygonal bore because of the design with many lube grooves. Any input is welcome.

[buckshotshoey]

Boy....thats a big bore. Maybe a replacement barrel should be on the wish list.

[xdmalder]

Gonna need to not use the FCD also. It will swage them as well. Personal I would use a NOE expander plug in a Lee universal expander die.

[Candjur]

Thank you, I was not aware of the NOE options. :-)

[GhostHawk]

I would start with a .358 mold.

Flare the necks before attempting to squish them in there. Lee sells a universal neck flaring tool. Lyman sells M die. But the right taper punch, needlenose pliers will do the same exact thing for virtually nothing.

Think of it as putting a slight radius on the sharp square edge of the brass. So the boolit can get started evenly all the way around with that top square edge shaving lead off.

If the boolits are big enough, only minor crimp will be needed to square the mouth back up, to undo your mouth flare.

IMO this is not a Lee Mold Problem. This is a 9mm pistol makers run a wide gamut of sizes from small and tight to big and sloppy.

I have a Hipoint C9 9mm pistol which did exactly the same. Federal factory loads were better, no keyholing. But even at 20 feet groups were bigger than coffee cups, not smaller.

Loading an as cast .358 124 gr which actually cast at .360 solved all those problems, and gave me nice tight 1.5 inch groups. I lubed mine with Ben's Liquid Lube. Over 3 - 4 grains of Red Dot powder.

Best of luck to you.

FYI, it is double the investment for a mold that you are at this point are unsure if it will give you the results you desire. But if it were me, knowing what I know. I would get that new mold in a 6 cavity and watch the bullets RAIN out of it.

Whole different level of quality in my opinion.

[wv109323]

I do not own the TL356 mold but there was a thread that addressed the issue of rifling contact with the TL molds. The consensus was that stripping of the rifling could occur. That is the bullet accelerated without full rotation being imparted on the bullet.
For one of my 9MM's(CZ75) I had to go with a .358 mold and size to .358. I did not powder coat. For your bore size I would not size but just powder coat the bullets to see what size they are after PC.

[tomme boy]

Water drop the bullets right out of the oven. Let them sit for a few weeks or longer. And yes use the 38 S&W expander. Load them as cast NO sizing.

What powder are you using? Get 231 or HP38

[runfiverun]

I would re-measure.
then I would call Germany.
H&K is sure proud of their stuff, make them make it right [if they will talk to you]

[EMC45]

Had the same problem with a G19 Glock I was loading for. I sized all bullets at .356 and they keyholed and were shooting poorly. They were even bouncing off the log pile and coming back at me. I ran another test at .358 and they shot like a laser beam. Accurate and no leading. Second outting was with my brother's G19. Ran 100 Lee TC 120gr. over 3.5gr. Bullseye. Shot them as fast as we could get the magazines loaded (including the G18 stick magazines). Went inside and wiped everything down with a dry paper towel. Pushed a wad of dry paper towel down the bore and the bore looked like a mirror. No fouling/leading. This was a brand new unfired G19 from the box. Fitment is key.

[Tackleberry41]

Not sure how a barrel that big would shoot even jacketed very well.

But yea those NOE expanders do wonders.

[HeavyHev]

I would try and make your alloy harder. Also you may want to take buckshot's advice and get a new barrel. You are going to have a hell of a time getting .361-362 projectiles to fit in a 9mm case without some form of swaging. You will always have some bulging when you stuff that fat of a projectile into that case. You will likely not be able to use your HK ammo in any other handgun if you filling your rounds with .359 or bigger projectiles.

[Boolseye]

I would re-measure.
then I would call Germany.
H&K is sure proud of their stuff, make them make it right [if they will talk to you]
+1. It does seem unusual for a top-shelf German pistol to be that far out of spec. Are you using a good micrometer to measure? Vernier calipers can be a couple thou off.

In any event–I suggest you acquire a more tried & true bullet design, perhaps a NOE or the Lee non-TL 120 TC.
Then size to .358", use your .38 S&W plug or what have you, and take care not to swage the boolit on loading (no FCD, at least bypass the carbide ring somehow). That will get you a long way there...
-BE

[Outpost75]

My experience with HK customer service over the years has been dismal and your .359 barrel is typical.


Many Euro 9mm pistols run large, more often than not. Whether Beretta, Browning or SIG, most run big.

[Tar Heel]

I will only say this once. You can listen or you can fight this for months.

Accurate #7

[Candjur]

Loading an as cast .358 124 gr which actually cast at .360 solved all those problems, and gave me nice tight 1.5 inch groups. I lubed mine with Ben's Liquid Lube. Over 3 - 4 grains of Red Dot powder.


Thank you for your advice, it's very usefull. Is this the NOE mold you are referring to?

[Candjur]

I do not own the TL356 mold but there was a thread that addressed the issue of rifling contact with the TL molds. The consensus was that stripping of the rifling could occur. That is the bullet accelerated without full rotation being imparted on the bullet.
For one of my 9MM's(CZ75) I had to go with a .358 mold and size to .358. I did not powder coat. For your bore size I would not size but just powder coat the bullets to see what size they are after PC.

I agree on this, what mold are you using.


Water drop the bullets right out of the oven. Let them sit for a few weeks or longer. And yes use the 38 S&W expander. Load them as cast NO sizing.

What powder are you using? Get 231 or HP38

I am using the Clean Shot D032 powder.


+1. It does seem unusual for a top-shelf German pistol to be that far out of spec. Are you using a good micrometer to measure? Vernier calipers can be a couple thou off.



I actually have had this sneaking suspicion about the accuracy of the micrometer - I will double check.

Big thanks to all that chipped in with their experience.

Oh, I now shot the TL356-124-R2 at 0.360 with coating (according to my micrometer). It tumbled less, but accuracy is, still, down the drain, and I am now pretty sure that the design of the bullet, with less contact to the bore, is a major disadvantage in polygonal bores, as the lead does not have any sharp grooves to dig into. I tried this bullet, and load, in a SIG with normal (non-polygonal) rifling (no idea about bore size) - and it shot a group within 1 inch @ 15 yards.

[Candjur]

I am now considering the Lee 356-120-TC or the 358-155-TC 5 cav. ELCO - I am going to use this gun in IPSC production division, a heavy boolit will allow for lower charge and better recoil.
Anyone ever used any of these in a H&K P30?

I notice that people here refer to the H&K as a top shelf thing, but here in Denmark (we are neighbors to Germany) it's cheaper than a Glock.

[GhostHawk]

Thank you for your advice, it's very usefull. Is this the NOE mold you are referring to?

No, although if you prefer it go ahead.

I'm a cheap tight bastige, I run all Lee Molds, and have good luck with them.
But it does take some experience, tweaking, and know how to get the most from them.

[Boolseye]

Not in an HK, but I have used both in my SIG p226 and they're both excellent designs. The beauty of the ELKO is that you can load it out to 1.140" or so, allowing for better case capacity and lower pressures than other 9mm heavies. This is due to the long, slow taper.

Yeah, HKs in America are more in the SIG price point, a couple hundred more than Glocks.

[tomme boy]

The poly bore has nothing to do with the stability. You have to fit the bullet to the barrel. Plain and simple.

First thing now that we know a little more is to check the accuracy of your calipers or mike, or whatever you are using to measure the bullets and the bore and grove of the barrel.

If you barrel ends up actually measuring what you say, it needs to be replaced.

[Candjur]

The poly bore has nothing to do with the stability. You have to fit the bullet to the barrel. Plain and simple.

First thing now that we know a little more is to check the accuracy of your calipers or mike, or whatever you are using to measure the bullets and the bore and grove of the barrel.

If you barrel ends up actually measuring what you say, it needs to be replaced.

Got it - I am on that mission now. What I can say is, that the boolits after PC and size, is the same size as a FMJ 124 grain S&B that my H&K shoots with good precision.