300gr 44Mag H110 Starting Load?

[THBailey]

I am the proud owner of a S&W 69 and I am hoping to put together some stout terminal ballistic performance loads for same. Not to feed as a steady diet for the gun, but to have in modest quantities and hopefully never have to use while fishing in Alaska. I picked up a box of Cast Performance 300gr hardened cast for the purpose. The label on the box says to contact Cast Performance directly for the load data. My entreaties to them have been entirely ignored to date. H110 is my powder of choice simply because I have a supply of it in stock already. I would greatly appreciate reference to some good data. Thanks.
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[Reddirt62]

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[Lloyd Smale]

I would consider a different powder. Your 69 isn't the strongest platform and if you loading down a bit because of it your using the wrong powder. 110 isn't a good powder to download. Try some 2400. Id give 16 grains of 2400 a try if it were my gun. that should get you close to a 1000fps and with a 300 grain bullet youd punch through about anything. .
I am the proud owner of a S&W 69 and I am hoping to put together some stout terminal ballistic performance loads for same. Not to feed as a steady diet for the gun, but to have in modest quantities and hopefully never have to use while fishing in Alaska. I picked up a box of Cast Performance 300gr hardened cast for the purpose. The label on the box says to contact Cast Performance directly for the load data. My entreaties to them have been entirely ignored to date. H110 is my powder of choice simply because I have a supply of it in stock already. I would greatly appreciate reference to some good data. Thanks.
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[Hickory]

I agree with Lloyd, you're first consideration should be listed pressure and not velocity. This little gun (model 69) will last a long time if the pressures are reasonable. A 300 gr boolit is quite a freight train even at 900 fps.

[BNE]

I have that gun and the Lee 310 Grain mold. I posted a similar question a few weeks back. Depending on when your gun was made, that weight bullet can damage a spring? Shoot 44man a PM and he will give you all the details. S&W will send an additional spring to remedy this issue.

And FYI, that Bullet with H110 is a handful!!

[44man]

Fellas are right but it is not the pressure since a load with a heavy boolit is the same as any other weight.
What is not good on a S&W is recoil inertia that can batter parts. The cylinder stop can unlock and let the cylinder rotate backwards. The pin in the center of the cylinder that unlocks the front of the cylinder can peen so you can't push the thumb piece and open the gun.
We quit shooting any heavier then 265 gr boolits.
You can load a different powder to reduce recoil but accuracy will suffer.

[THBailey]

Thanks so much, Gentlemen, for the information and your insight.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I would seriously look at loads that were a little less intense. That gun is not going to be pleasant to shoot with max 300 gr loads. I would seriously be looking at 250 gr loads that were in the 850-900fps range. They will have nearly the same affect on anything they hit as ones going 100 fps faster. You could always work up to 300 gr boolits but I personally don't see a need unless you can guarantee a hit everytime with them.

But the whole point here is that you have first got to hit the target with any load and you are more likely to do it with the lighter loads.

In any event you will have to practice shooting from the Holster you intend to use, and at targets at varying ranges from say 3-25 yards on out to 50 yards. Once you can hit a paper plate at 25 yards frequently from the Holster in less than say 3-4 seconds then I would say you could up the power factor, and actually gain something from it.

I would advise doing that with mid range .44 Magnum or Special Loads until you are performing up to expectations, then you could progress to heavier loads,,, but only to the limits of your being able to hit the targets under time pressure.

It is pointless to shoot heavy loads in any gun if you can't hit the target. Nothing I know of knows if the bullet that just whizzed past it's head,,, was going 900 or 1200 fps or weighed 250 or 300 gr.

Randy

[THBailey]

Thanks again for the advice. But as I alluded to in my opening post, the 300gr Cast Performance load will only be for bear protection in Alaska. I will, of course, touch off just a few at the local range, just to confirm they go down range correctly. After that, and with the grace of God, I will hopefully never have to shoot any more of them.

Randy, your advice is well taken. The guns regular diet is a cast 250gr semi-wadcutter with gas check loaded to 44 Special performance. Even this puts recoil towards the high end of friendly. My heavy load for the "Lower 48" is the 245gr XTP loaded a fair ways below max which, to me anyway, has decidedly unfriendly recoil.

The pundits on the Alaska forums say these bullets are not the ticket for stopping a large bear. Rather, penetration is the name of the game. Hence, they say, the heavy non-expanding hardened cast bullet with the large metplate is the way to go. But this all presupposes I might be calm, cool, and collected enough to draw, shoot, and actually hit a charging grizzly. Sure hope I never find out.

[44man]

At very close bear range, it will do the job but what if the inertia in a S&W stops a second shot if needed? A "click" with another trigger pull means take the front sight off or have a lot of pepper to season meat. YOUR meat. You need a friend that can't run as fast as you.
Get a Ruger SA and all will fire, EVERY time.

[Lloyd Smale]

tell you a little secret. I shot a 1000 lb cow buffalo with my 4 inch 629 using a 250 cast swc at a 1000 fps. Went there not intending to shoot one. Was there to watch my buddy kill a couple hogs. the owner of the hunt preserve is a friend of both of us. After a few hours he said "Lloyd why don't you kill that buffalo for me" he had a safari club dinner he needed buffalo meat for. I probably wouldn't have chose that gun and load but figured what the ::::. Shot it right on the shoulder. Bullet broke that shoulder and exited out behind the far side shoulder. It took out both lungs on its way through. It was one of the quickest kills ive ever seen on a buffalo and the owner whos seen MANY MANY of them die said the same. Now that buffalo has shoulder bones as big as any bear. The 300 grain bullet might buy you a little more penetration but its sure not a world changing amount. I guess id rather be able to place two of them in a charging bear then put one 300 grain bullet in the same bear. So my take on it is this. If I was going out to even bear hunt and wanted a back up gun id probably leave my N frames at home and take a ruger with a stout 300 grain load. If I did take a N frame I wouldn't worry about 50 grains of lead and would load it with a good 250 grain lfn or swc at about 1100 fps and with that id feel very safe. I doubt one bear in a 100 would notice the difference between getting hit by that then a 300 going the same speed. bottom line is you as a non resident isn't going to be hunting by yourself anyway. Your going to have a guide and if hes ANY kind of a guide hes going to be carrying a formidable rifle with him to protect you.
Thanks again for the advice. But as I alluded to in my opening post, the 300gr Cast Performance load will only be for bear protection in Alaska. I will, of course, touch off just a few at the local range, just to confirm they go down range correctly. After that, and with the grace of God, I will hopefully never have to shoot any more of them.

Randy, your advice is well taken. The guns regular diet is a cast 250gr semi-wadcutter with gas check loaded to 44 Special performance. Even this puts recoil towards the high end of friendly. My heavy load for the "Lower 48" is the 245gr XTP loaded a fair ways below max which, to me anyway, has decidedly unfriendly recoil.

The pundits on the Alaska forums say these bullets are not the ticket for stopping a large bear. Rather, penetration is the name of the game. Hence, they say, the heavy non-expanding hardened cast bullet with the large metplate is the way to go. But this all presupposes I might be calm, cool, and collected enough to draw, shoot, and actually hit a charging grizzly. Sure hope I never find out.

[44man]

Too much velocity with a hard boolit will not be your friend. The larger the meplat the worse it gets. I learned the hard way with deer since it is all I hunt. I bought the BFR revolver in 45-70, worked loads and wound up with 1632 fps. It is so accurate I was hitting 1" targets at 100 from the bench. My boolits are WD WW's and a WLN design. I thought I had a super killing machine. Lost deer with the pencil holes. I went back to the bench, made a WFN after reading here forever that a flat nose is all you need. It was worse. I found one deer, maybe 250 yards, no blood until 100 yards. Big doe, I opened her to find pink lungs with just a boolit size hole. The boolit zipped through so fast and the pressure wave from the flat moved tissue away from the boolit, secondary cavity.
I became a believer in "dwell time" inside an animal.
Then I got the .475 that shoots the same velocity as the .44 and it worked with most deer dropping on the spot.
Then it went backwards again with the .500 JRH, heavier boolit at the same velocities as the .44 and .475. WFN, deer went 100 to 120 yards with no blood trails. Seems the heavier boolit just won't slow for dwell time. I cast a little softer nose and made a meat grinder.
Backing up to the beginning of my revolver deer hunting, I used 240 XTP's since they are tack drivers. I shot 3 deer with them with my .44 and recovered them since I seen them drop at 60 yards or so. I have a habit of back tracking deer to the impact point and I found not one drop of blood. I have the perfectly expanded bullets that did not exit. This is where a tougher 300 gr XTP would fit. I bought 320 gr WLN boolits to try and things turned around. Being cheap I made a mold close but made the ogive close to the cone angle of 11°. Came out at 330 gr. Crazy deer killer to a tad over 100 yards. But you do not want to shoot this from a S&W. I tried all kinds of loads for tests and found a heavy boolit can't be shot slower or you have a shotgun with buckshot. This boolit and the LBT NEEDS shot in the 1300 fps range.
Some say shoot the heavy boolit slower but it doesn't work. I could not hit a deer at 50 yards.
We found the 265 gr RD with Felix lube and 22 gr of 296, Fed 150 primer, was so good and easy on the S&W that it is my standard load in the Ruger too.

[THBailey]

Just a short followup and a modest range report. Cast up some 240 gr keith style with gas check and put them over 9 gr Unique, basically a 44 spl lode. Still went off with a big bang but pleasant to shoot. This, or something close to it, will be the everyday load. I built a half dozen rounds with 300 gr Cast Performance large metplat bullets over 18 gr H 110, not the max load but close to. These went off with much more sincerity but were still quite manageable. These will be the "I hope I never need them" bear loads. Thanks again for everyone's input, most appreciated.

[jsizemore]

Hopefully you will have nothing but fish to talk about.

[Blood Trail]

I shoot a Super Redhawk and I happen to live about 20 miles from Garret Ammunition that specializes in hot loads for Rugers, etc. He helped me with a load shooting a 300 gr XTP at 1350 fps. I can push them a little more with H110, but these shoot great.

The SW 69 can't handle those pressures of these loads.

[44man]

I shoot a Super Redhawk and I happen to live about 20 miles from Garret Ammunition that specializes in hot loads for Rugers, etc. He helped me with a load shooting a 300 gr XTP at 1350 fps. I can push them a little more with H110, but these shoot great.

The SW 69 can't handle those pressures of these loads.
I don't think it is pressure since my load was the 429421 with 22 gr of 2400 for years and then a 240 Hornady with 24 gr of 296. It is weight and inertia of a heavy boolit. The gun is strong, just does not like slammed back. Just recoil.
Even the .500 has doubled when the cylinder stop unlocked to rotate the cylinder back to a loaded round. Needs a stronger stop spring is all. Gun can take pressures. The 29 has been known to unlock so the next pull of the trigger is the empty chamber. I can show double strikes on a primer.193802 Pressure to the primer will bounce the hammer back to fall again, even a SA can have the hammer driven back to near full cock. Geometry is different. The SA cylinder does not unlock. I say the twist direction of the S&W turns the cylinder backwards.
We fought with S&W when they blamed a double trigger pull but videos showed none but magic marker on the cylinder showed a turn.
What did S&W do to the enhanced model? But they now offer stronger cylinder stop springs. REALLY? Did they harden the unlocking pin? REALLY? Seems I cured both long ago. Don't say a S&W can't take pressures. it just needs understood.