Feeding issues 10mm/40sw

[BrutalAB]

In using rcbs 10MM-200-SWC 518 for my 10mm delta elite and have been having some seemingly random failure to feeds. Thr nose jams on the feed ramp and sometimes the slide fails to close all the way. Happens with both mags, sometimes at the start of the mag sometimes at the end. I figured it was just my gun and boolit combo but i loaded some 40 sw rounds with the same boolit and fired them in a m&p and encountered the same problems.

I was also not impressed with accuracy. Tried around 6 different powders.
Anyone using this mold with success? Any mold suggestion?

[Tackleberry41]

I use a NOE 200gr which has much less taper to it, and feeds fine in all my 40 cal guns. Plenty accurate, doesn't seem to care what powder is used.

[Bzcraig]

Check OAL and did it pass the plunk test?

[runfiverun]

if it's a random issue and you have eliminated the cases being mixed, or different lengths etc.

then I would look at the boolit itself.
you might just have one cavity that isn't quite closing all the way [handles or alignment pint thing] and it is a bit larger in the exposed area.
enough bigger to catch the nose or the area right above the case mouth.
maybe a slightly shorter oal could fix it.
you might catch them coming out of the lubesizer with a titch of the boolit sized where the others ain't.

[BrutalAB]

They pass the plunk test in the delta, did not test them in the m&p. I have tried seating them slightly deeper and it helped, but still happened. I have not tried seperate brass headstamps. I will try that next.
I am powder coating these and sizing to .401
I should probably try alox lubeing them i guess.

[runfiverun]

I generally seat the swc types so that the front drive band is flush with the case mouth.
I know that ain't how every body else does it, but I don't have short chambering rounds either.

[Edward]

My Glock 20 shoots the Lee TL 175gr with no issues in both 10/40 using Lone wolf barrels tl or powder coated

[TexasGrunt]

I generally seat the swc types so that the front drive band is flush with the case mouth.
I know that ain't how every body else does it, but I don't have short chambering rounds either.

The old rule is a thumbnail thickness of the band above the case mouth. That's what I've been doing for years.

[popper]

May need to change to a TC mould.

[BrutalAB]

Is there really that much difference between a tc and this swc if this swc is seated deep enough? I barely even think of this mold as a swc xonsidering how 357 swc look.

[Lloyd Smale]

not a cure for the problem but sometimes casting them harder will help. Dry water dropped ww.

[rond]

The old rule is a thumbnail thickness of the band above the case mouth. That's what I've been doing for years.

Yep, on all my SWCs.

[44MAG#1]

Clean the gun real well. Get a nice case for it. Use it as a showpiece. Go buy a Glock 10 MM and a Glock 40 and use them as a shooting gun. You can put a Dawson adjustable sight set on them if you want.
Problem solved.

[Josh Smith]

Clean the gun real well. Get a nice case for it. Use it as a showpiece. Go buy a Glock 10 MM and a Glock 40 and use them as a shooting gun. You can put a Dawson adjustable sight set on them if you want.
Problem solved.

Dude, no.

[Josh Smith]

In using rcbs 10MM-200-SWC 518 for my 10mm delta elite and have been having some seemingly random failure to feeds. Thr nose jams on the feed ramp and sometimes the slide fails to close all the way. Happens with both mags, sometimes at the start of the mag sometimes at the end. I figured it was just my gun and boolit combo but i loaded some 40 sw rounds with the same boolit and fired them in a m&p and encountered the same problems.

I was also not impressed with accuracy. Tried around 6 different powders.
Anyone using this mold with success? Any mold suggestion?

OK...

What brand magazines?

Regards,

Josh

[44MAG#1]

As much of a fan as I am of a 1911 handgun (and I am a huge fan) the Glock is just hard to beat as far as running without headache.
There comes a time when one must face certain things in life and that is one.

[Josh Smith]

As much of a fan as I am of a 1911 handgun (and I am a huge fan) the Glock is just hard to beat as far as running without headache.
There comes a time when one must face certain things in life and that is one.

I've seen Glock failures. There are more ways a Glock can fail, in fact.

A properly-fitted 1911 with good magazines will not fail.

Regards,

Josh

[44MAG#1]

"I've seen Glock failures. There are more ways a Glock can fail, in fact"

Oh there is no doubt because nothing is perfect.
But let's put this way. You have a new out of the box Kimber 1911 and I have a new out of the box Glock M20 and a box each of a given brand of ammo.
If we have a 1000 dollars on the line. If your Kimber fails to feed first you give me a 1000 bucks and if my Glock fails to feed first I give you a 1000 bucks. Who's billfold will be lighter by a 1000 bucks would you say.
Just so you know I have a Kimber Campguard 10 and a Glock M20.
I also have 1911 in 45 Auto and have had a few more over the years and have now 2 Glocks.
Also an XDs in 45 Auto and a Springfield Micro Compact in 45 Auto 1911 as you know. Guess which runs as slick as snot? The old ugly black boxey stupid Glocks.
I have disliked Glocks for years and had 2 years ago and got rid of them but now I am back with a humbled attitude.
Being humbled is rough especially if one thinks they are mega right.

[Josh Smith]

Definitely not Kimber.

I'd run that bet with a Rock Island or a Springfield Armory.

Regards,

Josh

[44MAG#1]

I also have a RI 1911. Does Springfield even produce a 10? How many time has my clock failed with a load the RI 45 Auto won't run well. NONE. The RI will run most loads I have tried but not a couple, especially the one I like.

[Josh Smith]

Let me clarify:

A 1911 can be tuned to be more reliable that most other pistols due to its simplicity.

I would not run any pistol directly out of the box. Cleaning and inspection first is essential.

I would trust a new military 1911 to be reliable new, as reliable as any modern handgun.

If a Glock were taken to the tight tolerances of many custom 1911 pistols, or was made by a wide variety of manufacturers like the 1911, I would expect a high number of malfunctions.

My background is similar to yours, but inverse: I came to the 1911 after being dissatisfied by more modern designs, including Glocks.

Certainly to offense meant.

Regards,

Josh

[Plate plinker]

Thread drift.... get back to the OP.

Are your loads weak? Or standard? Hot?
Polishing the feed ramp may help.

[44MAG#1]

No offense taken. I see it as it is. And it is what it is. In my 64 years of age I have figured I have been wrong one or twice.
Glocks are made the way they are for a reason. RUNNING plain and simple.

[44MAG#1]

Again a man shouldn't have to polish the feed ramp on a gun that cost over a thousand dollars. A RI maybe but that is a 625 dollar gun.

[Josh Smith]

Sir, my main point is this:

The gentleman wants to know how to make his 1911 run with his loads.

He doesn't want a Glock to run with his loads.

Therefore, we should help him get his 1911 running, not suggest a Glock.

Regards,

Josh

[Josh Smith]

Thread drift.... get back to the OP.

Are your loads weak? Or standard? Hot?
Polishing the feed ramp may help.

Additionally, what magazine are you running? Stock Colt?

Regards,

Josh

[Plate plinker]

Sir, my main point is this:

The gentleman wants to know how to make his 1911 run with his loads.

He doesn't want a Glock to run with his loads.

Therefore, we should help him get his 1911 running, not suggest a Glock.

Regards,


Josh

right

Now I doubt the gun was meant to run SWCs, so it may need a bit of tuning.

[44MAG#1]

You sir are right as I know nothing. But if he want something to run without dumping more money in a gun he probably already has 1200 bucks in, well he can do it if he wants. I would trade it, sell it and get a Glock and most of his headaches will go away.

[Josh Smith]

right

Now I doubt the gun was meant to run SWCs, so it may need a bit of tuning.

An EGW mag catch would likely help a lot.

I'd like to see a picture of the feed ramp.

Just doesn't sound like the magazine puts the round high enough, and the steep feed angle is causing random malfunctions.

Regards,

Josh

[44MAG#1]

I don't think you understand. It grieves me to have to feel this way about a 1911 design. It truly does.

[Plate plinker]

I don't think you understand. It grieves me to have to feel this way about a 1911 design. It truly does.

Not a slight at all but he might just need a few adjustments to get to were he wants to go.
Polishing is easy anybody can do it. A different brand of mag may help. Load adjustments all relatively cheap.

I like both platforms too but I can tell you my match gun runs 200 gr swc all day, but not 155's.

[44MAG#1]

I'm leaving to go to Cabelas right now. I have a Glock M20 on my hip right now. Not my Kimber 10MM.

[BrutalAB]

Wow.

Magazines are original colts that came with the gun, i have recently bought a mec gar but havent ran anything through it yet.

Also not interested in a glock, if i wanted a glock i would have one.

[Plate plinker]

Another question. Does it run with ball ammo?

[Josh Smith]

Wow.

Magazines are original colts that came with the gun, i have recently bought a mec gar but havent ran anything through it yet.

Also not interested in a glock, if i wanted a glock i would have one.

OK, and do they have wadcutter or tapered feed lips? I can't picture the magazine properly as I'm pretty stuck on .45acp right now. Love big and slow! It's like me!

Now, sir, it does sound like the bullet is hitting the ramp slightly lower than it should. Doesn't matter much with most bullet designs, but it may with the one you're using.

In 45acp, Wilson seems to hold the round slightly higher. The EGW catch I mentioned holds the magazine about 0.040" higher. In 45acp, this combination affords me a nearly straight shot into the chamber.

Can you snap some pictures of the seated magazine with a couple dummy rounds?

Regards,

Josh

[garym1a2]

In my old Kimber 1911 it ran great with a 200 lee SWC if I used Kimber Mags and coventinal lube bullets. Powder They also ran great in my Glock21SF. Once I tried powder coated bullets it did not fit good in the Glock nor feed.

In 40 I tried the Lee 145 gr bullet and it was lousiy feeding in my G22. I suggest trying the Lee 175gr TC, it feeds great in my G22 and G35. It probally will be good in the 1911 also.

[BrutalAB]

It runs with factory ammo fine, j word tc bullets.

Ill get some pictures of the ramp and the jams when i grt home later today.

[44MAG#1]

"Also not interested in a glock, if i wanted a glock i would have one."

To each his own. While no design is perfect I expect more from guns that cost over a grand to buy. While I am not near as picky as my machinist friend who thinks a production gun should be made like a full custom tool and die shop model at production prices I expect a gun to run with most that is fed into it.
If you like spending over a grand for a gun then have to do home gunsmithing to make it run I say have at it.
I don't like to fiddle, fool and spend even more money on the gun to get it where it should be to begin with.
Changing springs is okay as that is a simple thing and not costly. But much more I'm sorry.
Hope you have good luck and are happy.

[keyhole]

I thought I would weigh in with my experience. Also have a Colt Delta Elite 10mm and use the same RCBS #518 bullet. Started with 7.8 gr Accurate #5. In the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook No. 4, starting load with this same bullet and powder is 7.6 gr, max shown is 8.5. Target below is one of my better ones, 15 shots offhand, 2-handed at 50 feet. Extreme spread is about 3 1/2", 8 of the 15 touching the X-ring. I am not any Camp Perry champion by any means, but the gun, powder, bullet combo works well for me. I do notice that it requires a very firm grip to group well, more than other handguns I have. Function is reliable, no issues with misfeeds or other bobbles. I have since increased charge to 8.1 gr.
191839

Also use the same bullet in a Beretta Model 96, 40 S&W. Charge is 6.0 gr. of same Accurate #5. Below targets are from measured 60', again 2-hand offhand. The target with only 5 shots was kind of a fluke, in a good way. Probably can never repeat, but it shows what the gun, bullet, and powder are capable of. Other target is 25 shots, also 20 yds offhand, 2-hand.
191840 191841

The Beretta was initially fed factory ammo, whatever I could find cheap at a gunshow. There would be 1 or 2 malfunctions in every box, regardless of make and bullet style. When I started using the RCBS cast bullet, the gun has since run flawlessly for a couple thousand rounds. It feeds very smooth.

All this is just my experience-your results may vary. For me, the accuracy is more than satisfactory. Others may have a different standard of what is accurate.

thanks

Keyhole

[35remington]

Let us hope this thread remains productive and not a continued pursuit of a Glock fetish.

For nosediving on the first shot from the magazine, try overall length adjustment. This may be limited by chamber throating length. Idea is to limit nosediving.

10mm/40 magazines do not appear to have taper in the feed lips. Failure to close completely could be several things, need maximum amount of info to diagnose. Excessive braking of slide return to battery momentum could be one, maybe. Does the feed "feel" rough or kachunky?

[44MAG#1]

I don't have a fetish unless it is likened to the 1911 fetish I had.
Now I just get what works most of the time. Will the 1911 still remain as my favorite semi auto? Yes, but I am not going to bash other designs due to my "fetish" for the 1911. If wiseing up constitutes a "fetish" for another gun so be it.
My "fetish" is for what will more than likely will work. Although NO design will work perfectly.

[35remington]

44, you need to let it go as it looks more like a fetish when you have nothing to say to address the issue with this particular gun. The purpose of the thread is to diagnose feed issues with this particular gun. Put the Glock love on hold for awhile as noncontributory.

As far as the nose diving goes sometimes meplat width has an influence in how the bullet's glance characteristics and nosediving affect function as meplat width also affects feed ramp intersection.

Is the meplat of this bullet different from others that feed?

[44MAG#1]

Okay here goes. It is a timing problem with when the cartridge starts up the feed ramp. The parallel lips on the mag is holding the cartridge too long and the cartridge is having trouble going up the feed ramp because the lips won't let go soon enough.
The lips need to be adjusted so they will turn "more" loose as the cartridge goes up the ramp. When it has trouble going up feed ramp the slide forward velocity is slowed and not enough steam is left to overcome the lip pressure.
The Glock M20 has "more"of a straight in line of feed.

[Josh Smith]

From what we've been told, the feed lips are not the tapered military versions but rather wadcutter style which release early.

Josh

[44MAG#1]

My Kimber has parellel lips. Not the one wider at the front than the back. The mag holds the cartridges longer before release
Early release is when the lip gap is larger at the front than the back. When parrellel the gap is so close to the same as to be the same. The cartridge has a tougher time making the turn (that a Glock doesn't have as much of) slowing down the forward momentum of the slide. It doesn't take much to slow it enough to cause a problem.

[44MAG#1]

I have 2 Wilson mags for my Kimber. Both are parellel lipped like the ONE mag that came with an 1100 dollar gun.

[Josh Smith]

Sir, with all respect:

Tapered feed lips are the original style. They provide full controlled round feed and was designed around military ball ammo.

The short parallel lips you're describing are wadcutter feed lips designed to feed that style bullet.

With wadcutter lips, you can get an effectively earlier release by shortening the overall length of the cartridge.

Messing with the feed lips is not necessary with this design.

Regards,

Josh

[44MAG#1]

You know then. I just know if I were going hiking and camping in bear country and we're going to carry a 10 semi which one of mine I would carry. Parellel lips or no.

[35remington]

10mm magazines have straight feed lips with a wide spot forward releasing the cartridge. They cannot be tuned for release point other than what they have. Different magazine brands are the only possible way to change release timing.

[44MAG#1]

Seating the bullet deeper will change release if one is smart enough to reduce the charge if one is loading close to full power.
Change bullet design and they may be another pain too. Fun isn't it?

[Josh Smith]

10mm magazines have straight feed lips with a wide spot forward releasing the cartridge. They cannot be tuned for release point other than what they have. Different magazine brands are the only possible way to change release timing.

Yes Sir.

Tapered full feed lips were the original, designed for military FMJ. RUMOR has it that they work well with 10mm despite that round's slightly smaller diameter.

Short parallel feed lips are wadcutter style, designed to sacrifice a bit of control during the round's release in favor of a wider variety of ammo feeding reliably.

Tapered wadcutter lips are the hybrid design and some prefer them.

Regards,

Josh

[Josh Smith]

Seating the bullet deeper will change release if one is smart enough to reduce the charge if one is loading close to full power.
Change bullet design and they may be another pain too. Fun isn't it?

I kinda always thought charge reduction was a given.

Now... You want to like your Kimber? OK.

The Kimber is not my preference. Generally, they are the same quality as Rock Island inside. Good, but befitting a $500 1911. Kimber pretties up the finish and calls it an $1100 gun. Ok, that's capitalism.

Kimbers are often select fitted. You have a bin with parts, and you try a few (say, barrels) until you find the one that fits best. There is a minimum of hand fitting this way.

Kimber famously tells people to shoot break-in for 500 rounds. Kimber pistols are not tight enough yo require this. Les Baers are, and they're often difficult to rack when new. They require several hundred rounds to form a slurry with the gun oil (keep it wet!) to run it in.

Kimber kinda hopes any rough spots will be knocked down during their "break-in." OK, what ever works.

Sometimes this doesn't happen.

Pull the barrel and look at the lower lugs. Are they forming bumps, or "knees," from abrupt contact with the slide stop pin? If so, you've found the point that is causing your failures. These bumps will continue to grow. Failures to feed will occur ever more frequently until you correct the lower lug profile with a stone.

Or, it could be a tight extractor, a five minute fix.

If you'd like help, please ask.

Regards,

Josh

[44MAG#1]

Don't need help. Never asked for it. But I appreciate the response. I should have bought a good gun like a Colt That doesn't have problems.
Never claimed I was smart.

[6bg6ga]

Well so far we have gone from a feed problem to go get yerself a Glock. I've never seen a Delta that had a feed problem. What I have seen is people that don't grip the gun tight enough and stove pipe every single round. The only 1911 I have ever had a problem with is a Colt Officers in stainless. It wouldn't feed for anything right out of the box. The cure was a different set of springs and it was up and running. I'm going to suggest that you have someone very experienced with 1911's and with Delta Elites shoot your gun and see if they stove pipe any rounds. Don't change a thing.

[44MAG#1]

Sir you are correct nowhere did any of us mention limp wristing the gun. That can cause a problem with the heavier springs in a 10. Maybe us previous posters aren't as smart as we think we are.
I started running my stupid mouth about a Glock and the others wanted to go into the depths of mechanical correction at first jump.

[6bg6ga]

With regard to feed lips on mags... I would suggest leaving them alone. The stock mag will feed anything or I should say will feed most of the time. With every 1911 I purchase I polish the feed ramp. I haven't done it yet with my S&W 1911 out of the custom shop. I got Kimbers, colts, Sigs, never owned a Springfield Armory. I would lightly polish the feed ramp with a drimel and some compound and see what happens.

[Josh Smith]

He mentioned that other loads ran fine.

If he were limp wristing, I would think it would show up with at least one other load.

I could always be wrong.

Regards,

Josh

[6bg6ga]

He mentioned that other loads ran fine.

If he were limp wristing, I would think it would show up with at least one other load.

I could always be wrong.

Regards,

Josh

Sometimes its necessary to have someone else shoot the gun thats experienced or have someone watch and verify the limp wristing or absense of it.

[44MAG#1]

Really the truth is with the written word we don't really know if the OP of any post is giving full disclosure of any problem they are having. Maybe the OP explains it as best they can. Maybe they left out a key bit of info accidentally, maybe doesn't tell the types of ammo they have used. PPU ammo is loaded light. Hornady is up to decent standards, Buffalo Bore and Underwood is off scale.
A lot,of loading data is not to full 10 standards it seems. Armscore I don't know about.
maybe a slight limp wristing might affect PPU more than let's say Hornady. Who knows.
Do we really know for certain about anyone's ability to really describe a problem?
We assume they do but who knows.

[BrutalAB]

191898
191899
191900

Factory ammo i shot was sig, box showed velocities in the higher endbof 10mm loadings.
I normally shoot 357 mag revolver with decent accuracy. Have shot a few semi autos but generally prefer revolvers.
Lunch break is over. More in the morning.

[BrutalAB]

Well this is embarrassing.
The mixed headstamp thing got me thinking and I decided to retrace my steps here and started with redoing some plunk tests. While some did pass, most did not. And its not necessarily one headstamp or another that passes or not. I had originally set my dies up with new starline brass and shortly after got my hands on 2500 pieces of once fired at a very nice price and have been using it since. Dont know if that would affect die settings but i suppose the evidence says it does.
Meplat on my boolit is .270
Meplat on the sig bullet is .215 and has a slight roundedness transitioning from the cone to meplat.
191901

[BrutalAB]

Just recrimped 74 and hand cycled them without issue, will test them in about 2 hours when i get to my range. I am sorry i caused a big fuss over such a simple oversight.

[keyhole]

Let us know how your gun functions and your findings on accuracy. I posted some target photos yesterday but they did not generate any comments-good or bad. As I wrote yesterday, I found with my Delta Elite that a very firm grip was necessary for best grouping.

[44MAG#1]

Yeah the taper crimp looks pitiful.

[BrutalAB]

Function was markedly better, only had one jam and one fail to eject where the case just didnt want to be let go. I will set the crimp just a hair down more and i figure that will do it.
Accuracy was still less than desirable but i think that was due to bad bases on the boolit. I did have a firmer grip this time as well and was pleased to find my brass didnt get spread all over the place.

[Josh Smith]

Well this is embarrassing.
The mixed headstamp thing got me thinking and I decided to retrace my steps here and started with redoing some plunk tests. While some did pass, most did not. And its not necessarily one headstamp or another that passes or not. I had originally set my dies up with new starline brass and shortly after got my hands on 2500 pieces of once fired at a very nice price and have been using it since. Dont know if that would affect die settings but i suppose the evidence says it does.
Meplat on my boolit is .270
Meplat on the sig bullet is .215 and has a slight roundedness transitioning from the cone to meplat.
191901

Hello,

That one on the left has been chambered several times and is set back. Or looks like it from the dings on the nose.

I'd go through and check overall length on each.

What die are you using to crimp?

Josh

[Lloyd Smale]

here you go! just use an axe!!:killingpc http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?330844-How-to-blow-up-your-gun-Great-Youtube-movie-on-what-you-should-never-do

[BrutalAB]

That one had indeed been chambered multiple times. Or at least attempted to. Im using hornady dies.
The only other semi auto pistol round i have loaded to any real extent is 9mm and i get clover leafs with my cast load for it. Well my friend did when he shot it, his skills far exceeded my own. I guess i didnt know what to really watch for here.

Keyhole, dont know how i missed that post of your results but i like it, gonna have to pick up some number 5 now.

Here is my initial accuracy testing from last summer.
191913
Notes below it say that i pulled on the top right one.

[44MAG#1]

I wonder if my 500 dollar gun that cost 1100 dollars will do that? I'll have to see.

[Josh Smith]

That one had indeed been chambered multiple times. Or at least attempted to. Im using hornady dies.
The only other semi auto pistol round i have loaded to any real extent is 9mm and i get clover leafs with my cast load for it. Well my friend did when he shot it, his skills far exceeded my own. I guess i didnt know what to really watch for here.

Keyhole, dont know how i missed that post of your results but i like it, gonna have to pick up some number 5 now.

Here is my initial accuracy testing from last summer.
191913
Notes below it say that i pulled on the top right one.

Are you using a separate crimping die?

Regards,

Josh

[BrutalAB]

Seat and crimp at the same time. Not a stranger to doing it seperatly though since i already do that on my 357.