Which mould for single shot 44 mag rifle?

[mattri]

Gents,

Just picked up a CVA Hunter in 44 mag. Headed out back today for some initial break in/sighting in etc. Just using factory stuff for now.

What I'd like to do with this rifle is use it for hunting whitetail at moderate ranges, probably not beyond 75 yards.

I'd also like to keep the round subsonic if possible. I live outside of town but there are some neighbors fairly close and like to at least keep the crack from annoying folks. Switched to subsonics in the 22s and there is a noticeable noise reduction. Hopefully this will also help with leading.

To that end I'm thinking something like a 300gr with a wide meplat- should be easy to keep at a moderate velocity, proven design on game and as it's a single shot feeding isn't an issue.

Open to ideas/suggestions.

Thanks, Matt.

[TexasGrunt]

Any single cavity .44 mold will work. That's all ya need for a single shot rifle.

Subsonic will depend on YOUR loads. Heavier bullets have more subsonic loads. Your subsonic .44 is going to be a lot louder than a subsonic .22 no matter what you do. Lee makes a 310 gr mold that should work.

One thing to watch, even though it's a single shot, is you're going to be limited somewhat by OAL depending on chamber length.

[C. Latch]

I'm not a .44 shooter butif I was I'd start here:

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=37_204&products_id=2141&osCsid=096fbe9ruhqt1lq3isar3ledf4

[Nobade]

Check the twist rate in the barrel to determine what bullet is going to be your best bet for subsonic loads. Faster twist = bigger bullets.

-Nobade

[Dusty Bannister]

If you just want to to try the heavy bullet without spending a lot of money, try the Lee C430-310-F
Then you will know if you want to buy the more expensive mold or if it is even necessary. It would be best to at least slug the barrel to see what diameter is the minimum that will fill the groove diameter. Then add a few thousandths as is the normal practice with cast bullets.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/511417/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-c430-310-rf-44-special-44-remington-magnum-44-40-wcf-430-diameter-310-grain-flat-nose-gas-check

[mattri]

Good points, thanks.

Barrel is 1:20.

Haven't slugged the barrel yet, hope to do that this weekend as well.

Will definitely check out the Lee mould.

Also, I have about a 5 gallon bucket's worth of COWW that I have turned into ingots, any reason they wouldn't work for this?

Should also have pointed out that while I've been reloading for almost 20 years I'm brand new to casting, this will be my first attempt.

[P Flados]

If you want to go for lower sound levels, you probably also want to go with the fastest powder that will reach the velocity you want.

Most all of the book loads for the 44 mag are supersonic. Most 44 Special loads are not. My books do not have any 300 + grn data. I would try to get something in the Red Dot to 700x burn rate range, start around 5 grns and work up until you hear the supersonic crack. Then back off 0.2 to 0.5 grns.

I load a lot of mid range 44s with Promo (Red Dot equivalent). With a 225 boolit I think even my mildest loads are supersonic.

With COWW, you can get medium hard (air cooled) or hard (water quench). Try both. I bet both will work fine for shooting. Air cooled would probably be better for hunting. Fill out will be easier if you add in 2% tin/pewter.

Also, what are your plans for lube? If you want to stay mild, most anything should work. Easiest would be tumble lube. Lee liquid lube works but stays sticky. Lee liquid (60%) mixed with Johnson liquid no buff floor wax (40%) is what we call BLL and does just as good without the sticky. You can buy a ready to use liquid (45/45/10) that does about the same as BLL.

[Tackleberry41]

I have a Rossi 44 mag single shot. Only 44 weapon I have. I use the NOE 290gr in mine, subsonic. I use tite group to launch them. I have the Lee 310 mold, but as usual did not really come out to .430. I leemented it, but got fed up with it and ordered the NOE, it makes beautiful bullets.

[C. Latch]

Also, I have about a 5 gallon bucket's worth of COWW that I have turned into ingots, any reason they wouldn't work for this?

None whatsoever. Should work great. If anything, you could probably soften them up a bit with the addition of some pure lead, but, yeah, they'll work fine as is.

[44man]

Twist or you cripple deer. 1 in 20 means more velocity and noise. Forget subsonic. Get a slingshot. How about a bow?

[runfiverun]

like 44 man say's so eloquently.
you could be encountering some tumbling issues when you slow things down.

one other way to a fairly quiet load is to use a too slow powder in the case.
4198 or rl-7 would fill the case and accelerate the boolit smoother but have a lower muzzle type boom noise.
I use 4831 in my 30-30 and it is rather quiet but still at 1800+ fps.

[mattri]

More great tips thanks, keep them coming.

Sub isn't the biggest issue just something that would be nice if it works out.

Any thoughts on Trailboss?

[Outpost75]

Have no experience with Trail Boss in .44 Magnum, but depending upon your bullet weight and barrel length 6-7 grains of Bullseye, Red Dot, 700-X or TiteGroup should put you in the ballpark of the velocity you want with a 270-300 grain bullet.

Cut the charge a full grain if the bullet is less than 265 grains, but no further as you may "stick" a bullet in the barrel!

[JohnH]

Speed of sound can be considered as 1100 fps for practical purposes. Just how fast/slow are you looking for? A 250 grain boolit at 1000 fps would make a good short range killer, lung shots. The classic Keith (Lyman 429421) or a wide meplat design like the Lee 310 kills not with velocity, but by cutting a large wound channel. In an NEF I've used the Lee 310 with the bullet shank removed (modified the mold) making the boolit weigh right at 250 grains to kill four deer. I was driving it with a charge of Blue Dot (don't now remember the charge) at 1270 FPS. This compares favorably with the 1873 Winchesters 44-40 which was doing yoemans work 100-140 years back keeping venison on the table and that was with 200 grain bullets. Kills quite well, but be prepared to track for about 50 yards. NOE makes an excellent copy of the Keith and while I've not used it for hunting, it shoots very well indeed even when pushed along at a sluggish 800-850 FPS with 6 grains of Red Dot. The NEF barrels are 1-38 twist and a .432 groove diameter. That groove diameter is SAAMI spec for a 44 Mag rifle. I got the NOE mold at .434 to resolve accuracy issues I was experiencing with 220 and 250 grain boolits which were dropping at .431 The 44 Magnum rifle is not what one might consider a target gun but they are fun as all get out and easily tin can accurate at 50-75 yards. I don't shoot mine as often as in past but maybe tomorrow would be a good day to bring her out again :)

[quilbilly]

If you don't want to spend too much money, I would look at either the Lee gas checked 240 gr SWC or the the 200 gr RFPB. Either will be deadly on deer at any terminal velocity at or above 900 fps. Get the Lee sizer of .430 too. The 310 gr Lee is an awesome boolit for elk but can be a real thumper at both ends of the gun - especially a light weight gun. I have used both the 240 and 200 on deer in a muzzleloader with sabots and both worked well on deer to fill the freezer. In my 444, I have driven the 200 RFPB to 1400 fps with no leading issues which is certainly more than you need for deer out to 100 yards.

[mdi]

My favorite .44 bullet, which works well in my 5, .44 Magnums is Ranch Dog'e design 265 gr. LRNFP. I got my mold through Ranch Dog, but it was made by Lee. Ranch Dog designed this as a hunting bullet for Marlin rifles, but it works well in my Rossi Puma, Contender, Dan Wesson 44H, 629 and Ruger SBH...

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=71 .432"

[44man]

If a 1 in 38" twist, forget anything but if 1 in 20" you can make it shoot. But heavy boolits need velocity and spin.
My .44 revolver with 1316 fps was 1-5/16" at 200 yards but at 1100 fps was center of mastodon at 50.

[mattri]

OK so it sounds like the 240-265 grain might be better than?

Wonder if a longer barrel will help stabilize a heavier bullet as opposed to a revolver.

[Digital Dan]

20" twist will stabilize a 320 gr RN at 1050 fps and 2400 is a good powder.

[Digital Dan]

http://i.imgur.com/yo8Zf6g.jpg?1

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/Brooks%20.430%20320gr_zpswlbrue5e.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/Brooks%20.430%20320gr_zpswlbrue5e.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/Brooks320Huff_zps5ok8ru8x.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/Brooks320Huff_zps5ok8ru8x.jpg.html)

[44man]

Twist is so important in any gun. I shoot mostly revolvers and the Ruger 1 in 20" can handle up to 330 gr boolits. A rifle can shoot faster so you might not want as fast as it can go. There will be a sweet spot.
I look at the S&W 29 with a 1 in 18-3/4" rate and 240 gr boolits in flight will rotate around the flight path but are still super accurate. Go to a 250 to 265 and the boolit stops the rotation. The Ruger 1 in 20" will not rotate with a 240 gr. yet will stabilize heavy boolits. The only thing is you can not slow the heavy boolit because not enough spin is a slingshot or BB gun. As long as you keep pressure in limits, you can make a lot of boolits shoot. I much prefer a faster spin anyway since you can reduce velocity and still spin up.
You can't make the little 44 fast enough in a 1 in 38" rate.
My opinion is the .44 should be 1 in 16" to expand boolit weights. As a revolver barrel gets shorter, the twist should get faster.
1 in 20" should be just right in a 44 rifle. Just find the velocity and spin each boolit needs.
We are still pulling hair with a 1 in 38" 444. Even it can't reach spin.

[mattri]

You guys are giving me a lot to think about- appreciate the great info.

Update-

Was able to head out back a little yesterday. Rifle is bone stock from factory, cleaned it up a little and had mounted a 4x Leuopold the night before. For now just running a box of WW whitebox 240grs. Took a couple shots to get dialed in at 25 then moved to 50. At 50 as is gun groups right around an inch from an improvised rest. Not amazing but was never planning to shoot Fclass so we're in the ballpark. Report and recoil are certainly present but not horrible. Fit and finish of gun is fine for intended use.

Would like to see a little better accuracy with handloads which doesn't seem unreasonable.

As I don't cast yet was thinking about buying some 240, 265, 300 boolits to get started and when I see results I like get a mould to start pouring my own.

Thoughts?

[Digital Dan]

Mattri, a suggestion and explanation follow:

You can shoot any of the bullets listed in your last post reasonably well and any velocity you choose within reason. What you will find however is that typical design .44 bullets with a wide meplate or large hollow point/cavity nose form require significant velocity reduction below the speed of sound before they lose the sonic crack signature, and that is a very large part of the perceived sound footprint from such events.

The reason is fairly simple, the explanation might be a bit confusing. I will strive to make it understandable.

The fact that a bullet is at or on either side of the speed of sound is somewhat irrelevant to the point of it making the famous "crack" associated with high velocity loads. What is significant is the velocity of the air in the flow field around the bullet as it travels to its target.

From an engineering perspective and one of practicality as well, air is a fluid and not compressible until its flow exceeds Mach 1. When this threshold is surpassed, a shock wave is formed in which the medium (air) is in fact compressed. It requires a great deal of energy to do this and explains why the highest region of aerodynamic drag is found at Mach 1.

Visualize a bullet zipping along thru the air at 900 fps. Because the air is not compressible it accelerates as it moves around the nose of the bullet. How much it does so is largely defined by nose form. If it travels only a short relative distance the acceleration is mild. A longer distance, such as created by wide flat nose forms, prompts rapid acceleration in large magnitude. It is entirely possible, even likely, that a Hornady 300 grain JHP from a .44 Mag will promote supersonic flow at velocities at 1,000 fps or perhaps lower because the flow field requires abrupt acceleration to circumvent the angles and radius of that nose form. At this point, I'd say a picture is worth a thousand words.

191050

On the other hand, a sleeker or round nose projectile promotes less acceleration and allows one to tickle the Mach a little more closely.

191051

You may recall from the picture I posted previously of the bullet used to shoot the targets that it is a round nose. It was designed specifically for subsonic shooting because the more typical style of bullets available in the market were a) making the crack at velocities a fair bit lower than Mach 1 and b) weren't particularly accurate at those velocities anyway.

[mattri]

Excellent write up, very informative. I'd like to get back to that in a bit but for now have another concern.

Just slugged the bore, twice.

Both slugs seem a little out of round, with a particular "high spot" that measures .4515".

That seems incredibly large.

I'm placing the slugs in the mic and turning them with my fingers, you can see the diameter go up and down as you hit lands/grooves but both definitely top out at .4515".

Suggestions?

[Digital Dan]

Something went off the rails somewhere, no way on earth.....

How are you slugging and with what? How many grooves does the barrel have?

[mattri]

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab333/rritchie1027/image000000_zpsbfg9gfcw.jpg (http://s877.photobucket.com/user/rritchie1027/media/image000000_zpsbfg9gfcw.jpg.html)

Barrel has 6 grooves. Slugs were round lead balls tapped into bore and then driven through to breach, same as any slug. Nothing out of the ordinary at all. No undue pressure, hang ups etc.

[C. Latch]

You have a .45 Colt bore dimension in your .44 barrel. That can't be right. If it was, your 50-yard groups yesterday would have been measured in feet, not inches.

[mattri]

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab333/rritchie1027/image0000001_zps7l9aywgc.jpg (http://s877.photobucket.com/user/rritchie1027/media/image0000001_zps7l9aywgc.jpg.html)

Agreed, and yet here we are.

[C. Latch]

Digital calibers.

[mattri]

Sure, which have measured multiple bullets accurately and consistently- so?

[Digital Dan]

Well, even in today's modern times 1+1 does not equal 3. Puzzle to be sure.

[mattri]

Fair enough, guess we're back to ground zero. Will try a few factory cast boolits with various charges and go from there, results to be posted down the road.

[Digital Dan]

Mattri, just for giggles, try slugging it from the breech end to muzzle. Most bores have a slight taper, generally in that direction.

Or, you might consider a casting. I haven't got a clue how you wound up with the measurement you did, but something is out of whack on that.

[lightman]

I'm a big fan of the Keith style bullets. I also like the heavier for caliber choices. I'm thinking 255 Grain or more should be good.

[P Flados]

The slugging results would really make one think that a 45 colt barrel blank was used.

Heck, it could even be a "labeling error" of a 45 barrel. Can you measure cases that you have fired. I pulled some fired cases & got 0.455" for a 44 and 0.475" for a 45 colt.

If it really is a 0.451" barrel with a 44 chamber, it is a "defective" product. It could easily be "fixed" by converting the gun to a 45 Colt, but that is not something and end user should ever have to do with a new gun.

FYI, If for some reason you are suddenly desperately wanting 45 colt brass, I have a decent stash I am not currently using.

[mattri]

Good idea, will check some fired cases to see what they measure.

Slugged the bore again from the breach forward, same results.

Had a minute this afternoon so headed out back again and shot at 60 paces. Not exactly scientific but good results with the same WW whitebox.

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab333/rritchie1027/image0000002_zpsyhofpxbw.jpg (http://s877.photobucket.com/user/rritchie1027/media/image0000002_zpsyhofpxbw.jpg.html)

Not sure exactly what's up but obviously getting decent accuracy so going to move forward with 44 cal boolits, this is where I was thinking of starting:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/953089/oregon-trail-trueshot-cast-bullets-44-caliber-430-diameter-310-grain-lead-flat-nose-gas-check-box-of-50

[44man]

Now I am confused to no end. Is the bore a .45 or .44? What is the gun chambered for?

[mattri]

Gun is chambered in 44 Mag, is labeled as such and has been shooting 44mag factory ammo.

Upon slugging the barrel it became apparent that the bore was actually .4515".

After slugging the barrel as indicated above 44 mag ammo was shot through it with acceptable accuracy.

Going to proceed with 44 cal boolits.

[44man]

It is really hard to believe that a boolit will rattle down that bore. Go back, slug again and make sure you read the micrometer correctly. No calipers. or zero them. They MUST be off.
Looking at the edge of yours they are at 4 and a tad. They are NOT near .450".

[P Flados]

I do not believe you would get decent accuracy at 60 paces without normal spin.

Normal spin with 44 ammo fired in a 0.451" bore would mean lots of expansion at firing.

Getting no leading and similar good accuracy with cast could be a challenge. For less extreme cases, I have read of guns that only shot cast bullets well when conditions were optimium for expansion at firing. This would involve heavier bullets, softer lead and/or stouter loads. Nowdays, there is also the option of coated bullets.

The bullets you picked seemed right pricy for trying out. You might want to post for some kind of a swap to get a sample of heavy 44s from a forum member. I would offer but my only 44 mold is a 225 gr Lee. Again, it would be interseting to see how much expansion at firing you can get from a heavy, medium hardness, PC coated bullet and still get decent performance.

[mattri]

Thanks for the suggestion and offer, boolits and dies should be here tomorrow, hope to get out later in the week/over the weekend, will post results.

[P Flados]

Some would (have) question(ed) your measurements. Just to make any of those questions go away, could you post measurements of your 44 brass OD before and after firing. I did have a caliper "slip a notch" once and ruined a bunch of parts I was making.

[44man]

Cast is where I live and have bettered groups shot with jacketed many times. Many of my guns have never seen a "J" word. I am of course a revolver nut and have shot one hole groups at 50 yards, 1/2" at 100 and 2-1/2" at 500.
I question measurements since I have an old set of calipers that I can read to .0005" although it is not made for that and my friend can't read it at all. But I depend on a good mike first. He is confused with it too. Have to watch some of the calipers with a dial readout. To think they are making some out of plastic.
I just have to think your gun is OK.

[mattri]

Work, weather etc is doing it's thing, will post with results when I can.

[BigMagShooter]

head over to the swap area for bullet trading, you'll likely get a few offers of samples you can try.

since you're new to the cast bullet thing, I'd try with a standard keith 240gr or the 429667 to start with. both will do well for hunting deer and both should shoot reasonably well with average loads to try at starting.

[scottfire1957]

Gents,

Just picked up a CVA Hunter in 44 mag. Headed out back today for some initial break in/sighting in etc. Just using factory stuff for now.

What I'd like to do with this rifle is use it for hunting whitetail at moderate ranges, probably not beyond 75 yards.

I'd also like to keep the round subsonic if possible. I live outside of town but there are some neighbors fairly close and like to at least keep the crack from annoying folks. Switched to subsonics in the 22s and there is a noticeable noise reduction. Hopefully this will also help with leading.

To that end I'm thinking something like a 300gr with a wide meplat- should be easy to keep at a moderate velocity, proven design on game and as it's a single shot feeding isn't an issue.

Open to ideas/suggestions.

Thanks, Matt.


Is it specfically .44 magnum, or simply .44 cal? Made for roundball or .357 or .41 sabots?

.44 magnum muzzle loader? Or is it .50 caliber using .44 cal sabots?


Edit: I googled, it's not a blackpowder firearm. Mea culpa.

[dh2]

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=37_465&products_id=3600
I went this route with a wide flat nose I am plaining on using it in my Handy rifle in 444 Marlin I am looking at pushing it a lot harder than what you are I believe this one is up to any thing that walks in the lower 48 states. I don't think slowing the boolit down that slow would get very good results I would think going lower than 1300 FPS would perform worth doing.

[mattri]

So much great information in the replies here.

Haven't had a chance to work on this lately and in reading through peoples answers I'm realizing I asked a lot of connected, but separate questions at once.

Going to back up a little, attack a few on their own and then come back to mould selection.

Awesome site and thanks again for such helpful advice!