Fast twist 22 Hornet reloading advise with heavy boolits

[SUIScide]

Howdy all,
I've lurked here a bit off and on and shoot cast in my 300 blk and 45 caliber handguns. Now I'm faced with a reloading situation I don't know how to solve and was hoping for some help. I have a CZ 527 re-barrelled w/ a 1:7 twist 16" PacNor. I went that way for a 22 subsonic rifle able to shoot heavier projectiles than a 22 lr. I found that the 80 amax wouldn't stabilize in it and haven't shot it in a while. Anyways I've got two molds I hope to get to work in it; the NOE 70 grain round nose and their new 100 grain flat point. I've casted some of each in clip on wheel weights, powder coated them, and sized to 0.226. My question is, What's a save starting point with such heavy boolits in such a small case? Especially the 100FN. I think I could use Trail Boss with either in a 223 but don't know if that'll work in the hornet. I have Trail Boss, Red Dot, Unique, Universal Clays as far as pistol powders and would like to use one of them. I also have 4227, Lil Gun and H4198 that might work too but with larger charge weights and more noise (something I'm trying to avoid). I was thinking of starting with 4 grains of Red Dot and the 70 RN and work from there but I may need to get a copy of quickload. I don't want to stick a boolit and I really don't want to have an excessive pressure situation in the weak hornet case. Thanks

[Tackleberry41]

I have alot of luck w Solo 1000 in various subsonic from 223 to 45-70. if you look in the lyman manual for 22 hornet data it goes to 55gr w unique. Usually its a pressure viewpoint. Your looking for a velocity. Lyman says 3.0 gr unique as min w 55gr for 1320fps. So maybe start w that min and see what velocity you get, might have to adjust down a little for that fps your looking for. I usually look for 950-1030fps.

An issue I have found w small amounts of pistol powder in subsonic, is the velocity tends to spread out not using very much. Larger caliber like my 30-30 or 7.62x54 it has not been such an issue. But 223 it was a big problem w 200fps swings high to low w the goto powder trailboss, not good for any sort of accuracy. I found drilling flash holes solved it, might not need it w the smaller capacity of the hornet.

I had considered some sort of fast twist barrel in a hornet. But doubt it could do the job better than my 223 bolt gun w 1-9 twist, without the expense of a barrel and reamer. A hornet is plenty quiet thru a can full power.

I have been using a lyman 55gr in my hornet and 223. Was looking at the NOE 70gr, has to be within the same length of a 60gr flat base jacketed, longest the 1-9 will stabilize. So would be interested in your results. I had a 223 subsonic thread, but it was ignored. Whats the length of the 100gr flat point, has to be around .750in to work in my 1-9?

[SUIScide]

The NOE 70 grain is 0.750" long and the 100 is an inch long.

[Tackleberry41]

Guess I will get the 70gr, doubt a bullet any longer than the .75 will work.

[SUIScide]

I shot some trial loads into the dirt with the 70&100 grain boolits and red dot. 3.2 grains comes close to filling the case with the big one. I couldn't get my magneto speed to read, think I have a bad cord, so don't have any velocities. If I can verify that they're stable I'll screw on the can and know for sure without it.

[Tackleberry41]

I have found a chrony wont read if a bullet goes to slow or is tumbling, at least one I have often wont, or gives really high readings. With unstable bullets it might be they arent passing over the sensors right, very likely with the 100gr.

What I do is use a target, see what sort of groups I get. Nice and tight like the rifle does with other loads, good to go. Marginal bullets risk wrecking a can, cans seem to amplify such instability.

[SUIScide]

2.6 grains of red dot gave me a very nice group at 30 yards with the 75 grain. About 1/2" in five shots with mainly vertical spread. I'm pretty sure that was well supersonic. Unfortunately the 100 grain boolit gave me ten inches and some nice totally sideways impacts. I was hoping an eight twist would stabilize the 100 grain bullet at subsonic speeds but even the seven didn't:(

[Tackleberry41]

Will imagine it would be impossible to stabilize that 100gr in anything going that slow. Its just to long. Full power is the only way it will work.

Working w subsonic, you really really need a chrony. I messed w it before I had one. And they seemed like good loads, until ran them over a chrony. I had used trailboss in some 223, seemed fine. But 200fps velocity swings do not make good accuracy. With a chronograph you can really dial them in. I have subsonic loads w 5fps spreads over 5 shots.

I also found drilling the flash holes made a huge difference. Just the small charge of powder w the case capacity I guess. Not drilling them works fine in 30 calibers. But 223 it made loads w 100fps swings drop to 10fps. I notch the rim so I know which ones are drilled.

[SUIScide]

I have a magnetospeed, but I've found it doesn't work well with CB's. It may be on the fritz, need to shot some full power jacketed rounds over it. It may be having a hard time in this particular rifle cause the barrel is short and almost an inch at the muzzle.

Running the numbers for projectile length and weight and twist through the Berger calculator shows it to be stable in an 8 twist at 1000 fps. I may have some issue with it not grabbing the rifling well. I hope supers shoot well, I want to load it in an AR for hogs.

I really wasn't looking for accuracy, just stability. In the 223's big case I can see how drilling flash holes could help, but the Hornet case is so small I hope I won't have to go that route

[Tackleberry41]

My chorny has issues w white powder coat, guess white would not show up very well against a white back ground. It does have issues w unstable or very slow bullets. They have to go very straight across those 2 sensors or get no or weird readings. I had alot of problems w 223 subsonic, they just were not going fast enough I guess. Once I found a decent load, it worked fine. But I had many that didnt read due to low speed.

[cavhasbeen]

I have a magnetospeed, but I've found it doesn't work well with CB's. It may be on the fritz, need to shot some full power jacketed rounds over it. It may be having a hard time in this particular rifle cause the barrel is short and almost an inch at the muzzle.

Running the numbers for projectile length and weight and twist through the Berger calculator shows it to be stable in an 8 twist at 1000 fps. I may have some issue with it not grabbing the rifling well. I hope supers shoot well, I want to load it in an AR for hogs.

I really wasn't looking for accuracy, just stability. In the 223's big case I can see how drilling flash holes could help, but the Hornet case is so small I hope I won't have to go that route
Set the threshold to a lower number, I think I'm using 4 also be sure to select non-magnetic boolit. Mine hasn't missed yet on 308 subs.

[GARD72977]

I doubt the speed is a problem. I have used a standard chronograph for 10m pellet pistol with velocity down to 350 fps.

[SUIScide]

Thanks for the advise on getting the magenospeed to work, but I've already tried lowering the trigger. I've only had two rounds register. One was supersonic and the other was the first round of the day. It reads 30 caliber subs with no problem.

I shot some of the NOE 70 RN over 1.6 grains of red dot. These are stable and subsonic. Not terribly accurate but I can fiddle with a few things and see if the groups tighten (1.5" out of the truck window at 40 yards isn't to bad though)

I'm going to try the 100 grain NOE with a lighter charge. I may have been pushing them too fast earlier causing skidding/instability

[Blackwater]

A bullet's stability is based on two things: speed and twist rate. The slower you drive it, the faster the twist has to be for a given bullet length. Twist rate tells you how long it travels to make one complete revolution, and the speed tells you how many revolutions it's making at that velocity. Stability is based on RPM, and that's composed of both how fast it's spinning, and how fast it's going. As velocity increases, RPM rate must increase, adding or even "overstabilizing" the bullet. Lack of velocity can destabilize a long bullet. Longer bullets HAVE to be spun more quickly to stabilize them.

Think of a kid's toy top. They're generally short, so the mass is spread out over a wide area, thus, increasing its rotational forces and stability. Then think of trying to rotate a pencil on its point. You'd have to spin it awfully fast to get it to stand up and defy gravity. It's really pretty simple, and I believe twist rates for bullets have mostly been determined by experience. But there are still mysteries, like why a 1:38" twist became std. in .44/40, with its 200 gr. RNFP bullets (as loaded by the factories) and then was carried over to the .44 carbines, that may use 300+ gr. bullets. I think that's a human "design" snafu, though, and not a result of any real testing. Certainly not very thorough testing!

Twist isn't a prime consideration in most instances, but it CAN raise its ugly head when we depart from mainstream type loads. Long heavy ones, as you're trying to work with, and very short, light ones for very light loads or taking small game with the big rifles, are two instances where it can play havoc with one's efforts to make them work, at least sometimes. FWIW, the more I learn about twist, the less I think I understand it. I have a .260 Rem and a 6mm. Rem with 8" twists, and so far, my efforts with the heavier, longer bullets have not been very positive. This stuff CAN get kind'a "interesting," but not always in a good way when you just want to shoot well with a certain bullet. "C'est la' vie," I guess?