Free speech, truth and moderated boards

[Chargar]

Interesting thing happend this week. For the first time anywhere, I had some of my posts deleted on this board. A few fellow showed up with whom I had some experience on another board and I "outed" him as a fool. His response, was to say the least vitriolic.

I understand that flame wars can "imped" the flow of information. But what I posted was quite mild to some other other stuff I have seen here over the years.

It seems that if a truthful post draws hostile fire, the whole thing gets pitched in the interest of of information flow.

I really don't know what to think about all of this, but for the first time I feel like I can't say what I want. I find the notion of a "nanny" watching over us to see we play nice with each other somewhat disturbing. WE have always been a bunch who can sort ourselves out and resolve our own issues.

This place is not as comfortable as it used to be.

[Bret4207]

You called him plain, thats for sure. Maybe it's more of not letting things get out of hand with one post so that things go completely to crap. Let it rest and go on with things. We all get out of line from time to time. You just called it real plain because you'd had it with this guy already. I understand what you meant right from your first post. I didn't get to see his response, but if it was plainer than yours then best it be stopped then.

[45 2.1]

Chargar-

I found the same thing over on the Swiss boards. They came out and said that it was a private board and was subject to their absolute control. No free speech if you don't lock step with their opinion. Ain't America great now.

[45 2.1]

You called him plain, thats for sure. Maybe it's more of not letting things get out of hand with one post so that things go completely to crap. Let it rest and go on with things. We all get out of line from time to time. You just called it real plain because you'd had it with this guy already. I understand what you meant right from your first post. I didn't get to see his response, but if it was plainer than yours then best it be stopped then.

Be very carefull here, we have lost some major freedoms in the last 17 years. Just who controls what you can say, if its not you, is quite dangerous.

[Gunload Master]

We had two great individuals that got into a very dissapointing flame war over a gun. The first post was made that wanted some help, from that point on the next posts were telling each other off about a bunch of nonesense. I was contacted by a few people about removing those posts, and I thought I would leave them and see what happens. Turned out the posts were still very conflicting towards each other and when members read those sort of posts they see some very negative influence about the type of board. If posts like these are not moderated great boards like this can turn into mayhem and destroy the community. Should I have left "MOA Shooter" around and hope things got sorted out with him? I am the one that deleted those posts charger and that was the 2nd time I've had to delete posts in 8 months. I hope I never have to do that sort of stuff, but sometimes it's for the best.

[Chargar]

I understand the rules of life. When you are beholden to another for free space on their board , then they and their subordinates get to establish the rules and parameters. They get to decide what it tasteful, helpful, proper and so forth. Their ideas, notions, and concepts control.

I guess I have a trouble with institutions in general. As time passes, they take on a life of their own and what is good for the instution (or board) becomes paramount and the individual begins to take a back seat.

I have been a member of this "community" for about 7 years now, and it just seems out of step for this group to not allow folks to sort themselves out. We have always allowed that to happen.

"Times they are a changing"

However...I realize that all things change and we can't hold on to the past.
I just feel some sorrow to see this board/community pass into a new phase of it's life. It is more civilized, less rought and tumble, but also less free and more controled.

There are less and less places this day, where men can be men and interface as such, be that polite or not. This community used to be that kind of place.

My concern really isn't about the substance of the thread is question. I am quite willing to let that go and move on. But I did want to express my concern for what deleting that threat stand for. I only hope this is not the thin edge of the wedge. 1984 has come and gone..or maybe not.

I hope this note of conern does not fall outside of the parameters of allowed speech.

[Chargar]

45..Don't take it personel. I think all of us know what is means to be a person in the middle having to make tough calls. I am often in such a position myself and when I make a tought call, I know there will be somebody unhappy with it, that is just the way of it.

I am not trying to give you moderator/staff guys grief. This internet thing is a fairly new way of getting folks together. There are still lots of wrinkles to be ironed out. We don't know what it will look like 20 years from now, but it is certain it won't look like it does today.

A healthy discussion on freedom of speech and the internet is a way of talking about the issues that will shape the future of these kinds of boards and ways of communications.

So, don't get your nose out of joint..just join in the dialog..it is for the good of all. There are some real substanatial issues here that go far beyond our feelings on a post that gets bounced. Rather than tell me why it is uncomforatble to be in the middle, tell me why anybody really and truly needs to be in the middle in the first place.

Is a peaceful playground in the short run, worth the loss of free speech in this arena in the long run? This is the issue..not your feeling or my feelings.

[Oldfeller]

Guys, if they had to clean up the green split-pea soup that was all over walls and pooled on the floor after the last Aladin exorcism, that's OK by me. It gets harder and harder to get that bottle gene to leave (and it ain't a graceful type of leaving anymore either).

This past time the guys with the smoking shotguns had to follow him to other lists and splash some green soup all over their floors and walls too before MOA would evaporate. I am sure the mess that was left there had to be cleaned up as well.

We as a ex-Shooters board handle our own troll issues in the time honored way. Our moderation simply cleans up a bit afterwards and buries the miscellaneous left-over body parts and squeegees up the blood after the shotgunning is all over. They are concerned with wall residues and flies & spreading disease if left lying around too long.

And please, consider what the smell would be after a few days (whew!).

Stop and think a bit about the shotgun crew that took out MOA-Aladin this past time. Waskupi, Carpetman and me. Very broad spread of unoffical and semi-offical personalities and to piss us all off at the same time to that degree would require an extraordinary "bad circumstance". (and he was one) And yet, you note that the rank and file had to get irritated with the whole thing before snipe hunt was even called down on MOA -- everyone was really fairly forbearing for the first whole WEEK of his repeated nonsense.

Your moderators didn't act except after the fact and only to clean up some vitrol and wipe off the walls and wet mop the floor.

--- now, do you want the sort of Swiss Rifles or Greybeard moderation that "takes care of it for you"? That my buckaroos would be a BIG mistake around here, and you don't know our moderators very well if you think THEY think that kind of way at all ......

Actually, I hope they deep-sixed what I had to say about it at the time (and thank you very much for keeping clean walls and uncluttered hallways for us to walk in).

Certainly it smells better for them having cleaned up all the bile and green stuff.

Oldfeller

[Oldfeller]

You know, we have sandboxes of various sorts all the time and pour sand in each other's hair and generally enjoy ourselves. That counts as adult male amusement, and isn't serious by any stretch of the imagination.

Yet I can count the times the shotguns were needed on one hand while giving the Boy Scout salute. Generally troll work, isn't it?

And if you count the number of real people involved (discounting Aladin coming back 3 times under different names) I might could count them while flipping the bird.

Is this really even an issue?

Oldfeller

[felix]

Yeah, I just had to check it out to see what the Good Book says to do. Looks like Proverbs has a couple of points which fit the occassion quite well.

PROVERBS 20.3 It is an honor for a man to cease from strife: but every fool is quick to quarrel.

The foolish person launches into a quarrel at the least provocation, even when he has no hope of winning. He lives perpetually in an abnormal state of consciousness, but does not realize it. Do we willingly engage in arguments, like the fool, or do we stay cool and in control, defusing situations and stopping strife before it starts?


PROVERBS 26.17 He who meddles with strife belonging not to him, is like a stranger pulling a dog's ears.

Dogs don’t like strangers touching their ears, and they usually snap at those who do. We have enough problems of our own to think about without becoming a busybodies in the affairs of other people. Whatever advice we offer to the two protagonists in the proverb, it will almost certainly displease one of them and create hostility, so it is better not to get involved. Let sleeping dogs lie. The sluggard, especially, needs to sort out his own problems.

Sometimes, however, you may have the responsibility and authority to get involved. Paul instructs Timothy to warn certain Christians about their bad conduct, saying: "They learn to be idlers, gadding about from house to house, and are not only idlers but gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not" (1 Timothy 5:13).


felix

[ammohead]

45nut, gunload master,

My meesley 49 posts belies the fact that I have been hanging out with you'all since 1999. This board is every bit as good as the original shooters and shows signs of being around for a long time. Just the popularity with us approaching 1000 members attest to the fact that it is THE cast boolit board of merit.

I have allowed myself to fall into the flame war trap in the past, and have noticed that the infrequency of such events has been a pleasant change from the old days. This can only be a reflection of how it is being run. You are to be commended on a job well done, and have the approval of this long standing member to carry on as you see fit.

ammohead

[waksupi]

I must say that I was one who got my hackles up when I saw the one post. I have no problem with people disagreeing with each other, but it bothers me when name calling comes into the whole equation of what we're doing. As we gain more members, we will possibly have circumstances arise amongst the different personalities, and the way we communicate can cause conflict between us. As was said, if you have a disagreement was someone and you cannot be civil just take it to a PM. I never foresee this being moderated like Grey Beards or the Colonels board. We're too lazy for that.

[Buckshot]

............Disagreements are part and parcel of discussion. A picture hanging on the wall can have 2 different meanings for 2 different people, and the discussion that follows between them can be as 2 adults. Or it may be as 2 children where name calling back and forth takes place.

The former is suitable and in many cases informative as it can get others thinking about it in a way they may not have previously.

The later, name calling, is not suitable for public viewing and no one learns anything constructive from it. There may be an element of entertainment value in it but that would be the only positive, if you can skew your view in that direction.

The moderators on this board have no instructions from the federal government to trample anyone's rights of free speech. There is no conspiracy among the moderators. The moderators have no assigned hours to "WATCH THE BOARD". Rather it is more like one would do in their own home. You may have a heated discussion, and tempers may even be evident, but there is a point where intelligent discussion ends and it degenerates into name calling and baiting.

The topic which is the topic here under discussion was brought up and was not immediately jerked. It was mentioned, and as Gunload Master said, his comment was to leave it alone and see where it went and what happened. Doing what happened isn't something done lightly. I htought that was pretty fair.

I really do not like it personally, to think that 2 members (any members) to become involved in such a thing. I kind of think it reflects on use as a community. However, the board has a feature where such things may take place without involving the rest of us, and that is the PM messageing system. Take it there and have at it. No one can see except the parties involved, and the rest of us can go merrily on our way.

One other reason I do not like the idea of this happening is that it appears to set the moderators off as a seperate bunch, and we're not. We're just members that had the duty hung on us. I don't think there is one of us that asked to be a moderator. We are not 'over' anyone so far as we're concerned.

The other bad thing is that it can cost you valuable members. In case no one can tell, we want the board to grow and want no one to leave.

................Buckshot

[Shepherd2]

I saw the first post but not the reply. I was disappointed to see it on our board. I realize that previous discussions elsewhere prompted it but I think that a PM would be more appropriate in situations like this. I don't have a problem letting someone know I disagree with them but if at all possible I'll do it out of earshot of other people where it's just them and me.

[Bret4207]

I don't want to drag this out, but I think one point should be made. Freedom of speech- It's a term thrown about with wild abandon these. Like the so called seperation of church and state it is a different animal from what the Constitution provides for. Freedom of speech referred to speaking out against the Government, not the "right" to go to someone elses home and mouth off about what ever irritatated the homeowner and his guests the most. I'll admit the Courts have let the "right" morph into something new, but you still can't yell "fire" in a theatre or scream at someone just because you feel like it. There are limits and we tend to forget that a civilized society demands civility among it's members. I've seen some other boards where the free for all goes 24/7. If there was any good information there, it's lost among the foul mouthed bickering and squabbling. No one goes to these places except a few ignorant blowhards and the occasional passerby. This place is above that, just as the membership is a above the ignorance of believing all the old wives tales about cast lead and just what it'll do. Let's aim for it to improve, not sink to the level of the lesser boards.

[Chargar]

Very interestng responses...Several deserse individual responses, but I think I will just not do that.

I remember from my Law School days that the Constitution protects the individual from the goverment and not the individual from the individual..so I guess free speech is a boggus issue..at least as far as this board is concerned.

When you are a guest in somebody else's house you are subject to their rules. Mammy decides the rule of the dinner table and each version thereof has their own notion of acceptable conduct. There is no standard version of "Mammy's Rules", they are made up as you go on an ac hoc basis.

If the ultimate goal of the table is flow of information and growth in numbers then civility becomes the highest value of the table. I sorta get the idea this is where this board is now. After all, we have or own identity (logo) and Lee Precision jumps when we call or write..Best not mess with all of that. So, I submit to the new order of things. Lesson learned! You see, I am teachable after all.

No politics, no public policy, no religion (I guess that does not include Proverbs) , no outing of fools ( guess it is OK to hunt down MOA, but tht is where it stops)..let information flow and civility reign. Amen and Amen!

[grumble]

Y'all can do as you please. As for me, I'll post what I damn well please, and you can delete it off the board or kick me out of this polite society as you wish.

This is a group of folks who gather to talk about things, and I think myself adult enough to read "un-PC" posts without getting overly upset about them. If others don't have that maturity to read things they disagree with, it's their problem.

This board can be made as bland as you like, and as boring as needed to keep us all in our places. We have a few members who are pretty "colorful" in their comments, and I really enjoy those posts whether I agree with them or not. Similarly, there are a couple posters here whom I strongly dislike (and one of whom I intend to punch out should we happen to come face-to-face), but there's no public confrontation about it.

I don't approve of a nanny state, either in gov't or on the internet. I suppose that's good cause to delete this post.

[9.3X62AL]

Your most recent post is just fine--duly noted, and I respect your right to say such things in the manner that you did.

[NVcurmudgeon]

I was out of communication when the difference of opinion began, so will not comment on the issues. I do wish to endorse Chargar's words on civility. Without civility, any board would be dreary indeed.

[Swagerman]

The important thing to learn here is do not attack your fellow poster on these discussions.

No one has the right to ostrisize and belittle another just to pump up one's own self ego. Even though you may feel you're tremendously qualified to do so...by your own unique perspective.

If a poster keeps blathering about what was said after its long gone and dead, he needs to consider his values as a contributor. If it pains his personality to have been told to back off because what he did was dead wrong then he should be adult enough to accept that decision by the board moderators and be more tollerant of others.

This is all I've got to say about this issue, except to hope we can all live in peace.



Proverbs kind of nailed it though...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, I just had to check it out to see what the Good Book says to do. Looks like Proverbs has a couple of points which fit the occassion quite well.

PROVERBS 20.3 It is an honor for a man to cease from strife: but every fool is quick to quarrel.

The foolish person launches into a quarrel at the least provocation, even when he has no hope of winning. He lives perpetually in an abnormal state of consciousness, but does not realize it. Do we willingly engage in arguments, like the fool, or do we stay cool and in control, defusing situations and stopping strife before it starts?


PROVERBS 26.17 He who meddles with strife belonging not to him, is like a stranger pulling a dog's ears.

Dogs don’t like strangers touching their ears, and they usually snap at those who do. We have enough problems of our own to think about without becoming a busybodies in the affairs of other people. Whatever advice we offer to the two protagonists in the proverb, it will almost certainly displease one of them and create hostility, so it is better not to get involved. Let sleeping dogs lie. The sluggard, especially, needs to sort out his own problems.

Sometimes, however, you may have the responsibility and authority to get involved. Paul instructs Timothy to warn certain Christians about their bad conduct, saying: "They learn to be idlers, gadding about from house to house, and are not only idlers but gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not" (1 Timothy 5:13).


felix


================================================== ======


The scriptures show that contention and strife is in the trouble makers heart when he meddles with a wagging tongue.

Can there be civility when one gets in your face with his wagging tongue.


Swagerman

[Chargar]

I thought this was a dead thread, but I noticed that Mr. Swagerman felt the need to give it a kick.

I note with interest, from his perspective, the lesson to be learned is to be learned by somebody else. Human nature never fails to amuse me.

[versifier]

So true, Chargar. Victims of rectal/cranial inversion can't seem to see past yesterday's lunch. It's amazing how easily some make rules - for others - for their own good, mind you - and then try to justify it with further hypocracy. When anyone objects to their outrageousness, after trying to toss a liberal dose of guilt around, they simply pack up shop and try to peddle it elsewhere. :veryconfu I was surprised to see it reappear here, and unsurprised at your reaction. The best way to deal with an idiot on a soapbox, however, is to simply walk away. That way they're all alone with their best audience, themselves. I don't necessarily dissagree with the postings having been edited, but I think the entire thread should have been excised once the cat was out of the bag. :roll:

[Swagerman]

Too bad some of you cannot reason the trouble maker here, the one who gets in your face and call's you a fool for no just reason. Such is that kind beneath the standards of common courtsey and being a gentleman of class.

And to not realize that the Proverbs and other quotes pointed out was direct from a fellow forum member Felix...who apparantly knows a medler with a wagging tongue when he reads it.

I didn't start the original thread farce of name calling, and I didn't start this second thread whinning about how the moderators did him wrong because he couldn't get away with his rhetoric of misbehavior in his first medling episode and they yanked his crappy attitude.

Plus, I noted in this second thread a lot of back-peddling by him with the moderators, sucking up to what they told him in their replies. Then to try and clear his own conscious he glibly agrees with them...then proceeds to carry on in his usual fashion by saying they were wrong to correct him.

It has not escaped me that this individual is bound to have some chronies who think just like him, it matters not as there are many who posted not agreeing with his flawed mentality.

Plus, I also noted he was giving poster GuyG in the Wheel gun threads (Accuracy with .44 caliber bullets) the same brand of flippent lip, but it was a little more polite than what he said to me. The guy put him in his place and that was that.

Moderators, I apologise for defending myself against this crappy thread, and to the others who realize having to put up with this individual is an ongoing game of his antagonism.

Keep up the antagonism and you can get this thread removed too.

Swagerman

[Buckshot]

...........Hey guys. The thread was dead for 12 days and a post was made. It was dead for another 12 days and another post gets made. I htought it was a done deal. Lets just let this thing die where it is, okay? I'm not interested in seeing anymore. You guys take it to the PM system and work on it there if you feel more needs to be said.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

.............Buckshot

[Bret4207]

Ditto what buckshot said.

[locutus]

Bear in mind that the 1st Amentment doesn't apply to private organizations.


If you want to "out" a fool by standing on a soapbox in the park and shouting, the 1st preotects you.

OTOH, the owner of a forum, who has purchased the hardware and software with his own money, has the right to restrict other people's use of HIS property, as he sees fit. He has an absolute legal AND MORAL right to restrict what may be posted on HIS forum.

It's HIS private property, and anyone who is unwilling to abide by his rules should go elsewhere.

[45nut]

Bump for cause.
Cuz this is a new version of a humor and off topic forum and only the following applies.

Humor & Off Topic This Section is open to Humor, Political & Religious Discussions . YOU MAY BE OFFENDED HERE. THE ONLY MODERATION WILL BE DUE TO YOUR CONDUCT AS UNBECOMING AND MODERATORS WILL STEP IN ONLY AS A LAST RESORT. THIS FORUM DOES NOT EXIST MERELY TO ATTACK AND OFFEND, BUT CERTAIN TOPICS MAY BE OFFENSIVE TO YOU. CB IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR FEELINGS. BY ENTERING YOU ACCEPT THOSE FACTS. ** NO PORN ALLOWED.** What happens in off-topic, stays in off-topic !