Glock People - questions on 30SF & 30S 45 ACP & cast, etc.

[bedbugbilly]

I'm hoping some of you can answer a few questions as I am not a "Glock Person". I've never even shot one but have watched others shoot them and they seemed to be very accurate. I'm currently carrying either a Smith Model 36 snub J frame or a 9mm Shield. I have decided that I want to move up to a 45 ACP and want a little more capacity - I've narrowed it down to either a Glock 30SF or 30S - lots of good guns to choose from out there but I am pretty much narrowed down to and set on the Glock (at least today! :-) ).

I have several questions - I may be "over thinking" or "over worried" but am curious about several things that I might encounter with a Glock?

Barrel - I'm aware that the 30s (45 ACP) have "octagonal rifling". I have read of many that shoot cast out of a OEM factory barrel and once in a while, run across a post that it is a "no no". I am aware that a Lone Wolf barrel can be purchased with standard rifling to change out for cast if desired - but - is it really necessary? What problems will come up if cast is shot from an OEM barrel?

My thinking is that when a copper jacketed bullet is sent down the tube, it is going to take just as much energy to conform it to octagonal rifling as it will to conform a lead boolit - if both are loaded in powder weights to cycle the pistol. Am I thinking wrong? Is leading going to be a problem or something else? And if lead can be used successfully, what are you sizing them at .451 or .452? I will add that i am pretty low tech and I normally cast from "range lead" so alloy can certainly vary I'm sure.

30SF or 30S - Glock's site lists width of both at 1.27" but I know that the 30S has the "slimmer slide" (same as on the 36?). Both are on the SF frame. The loaded weight of the 30SF is 33.71 ounces and the 30S is 30.36 ounces - a difference of 3 1/2 ounces give or take. I carry OWB and will be using a Fobus paddle holster. I realize the slimmer slide of the 30S would work better IWB - but both in MI and AZ, OWB works the best for me so as far as "holster fit and protrusion from the body thickness wise, both would be the same. (My Smith 36 protrudes further than the Glock will due to the size of the cylinder and I don't have "printing problems". BUT - will the 3 1/2 ounce difference make a noticeable difference in "felt recoil" or will it be fairly close?

Question on Brass - I reload 38s, 9mm, 45 Colt, etc. and I have laid in a supply of 45 ACP range brass that I purchased - 1,200 casings and mostly Winchester. I have always heard about the "Glock bulge" but since I didn't have one, was not concerned with it - my only concern was buying range brass and I have rarely ran across a "Glock round with a bulge". IF it is kosher to shoot lead out of it with the factory barrel, I would be working up a load as normal to the point where the gun cycles and shoots accurately - which I assume would be shy of maximum powder weight. (I'll be using Red Dot, Bulls Eye or Unique as that is what is on my shelf). Am I correct that if retrieved brass does have a "bulge" - it should be discarded and chalked up to the price of doing business with a Glock rather than FL sizing and reusing resulting in a possible weakened casing?

Boolits - If it will work fine with cast - suggestions for the best boolit weight? 200 gr or 230 gr? Design? I understand that they shoot pretty much anything other than a wadcutter load (that I heard on one video - failure to feed well). I like the traditional "ball round" but am not really set on that if another design works better. I have several molds for my 45 Colt that is in the 200 grain area but I think I would just buy a $20 Lee mold to get started and then proceed to a NOE or similar once I decide what works best. Do any of the Lee tumble lubed designs work well? (I tumble lube). Or, I may just purchase 500 PC'd commercial made lead boolits to get started. IF the OEM barrel can be used - .451 or .452? in the octagon rifling?

I have looked at the Lone Wolf site and the G30 barrels are listed as out of stock - several are available on flea bay but who knows how long they will last and I am not looking at purchasing the pistol for another month.

As I said . . . I may be "over thinking" or "over worrying" but not owning or being familiar with Glocks, I just want to get my "ducks in a row" before I purchase; Since I pretty much shoot cast all of the time, I am not aware if there is a major problem in shooting cast in a Glock in regards to increased pressure that could possibly do damage or destroy the pistol? "Carry rounds" will be a good SD commercial round.

Many thanks for advice and information and if I am missing anything, please advise.

Jim

[Catshooter]

Jim,

In our Pistol forum you will find a thread on shooting cast in Glocks. Lots of good info there.


Cat

[bedbugbilly]

Thank you Cat - somehow I missed that thread completely. I appreciate you steering me in the right direction - have started through it and will finish reading it all tomorrow.

Jim

[Shiloh]

Cast in 9mm, no issues for me. Cast in .40, Boomed a gun. New aftermarket barrel in the next one?? No issues. There is a guy at the range whoo shoots cast through a Glock 21 all the time.

Shiloh

[W.R.Buchanan]

Jim: Lets put a bunch of these suppositions to rest. First Glocks don't have Octagonal Rifling. .45 caliber Glocks have 8 lands and grooves, the rest have 6. The Lands are Radiused not square edged. Just like any other gun they shoot Lead boolits just fine as long as the boolits fit the barrel correctly. Correctly on a .45 cal. Glock barrel means sized to .452. Powder Coating eliminates most any other problems that could arise, but correctly sized and lubed boolits shoot just fine. I only use the 230 gr Round Nosed boolit from Lyman 452374 mould, and I PC them.

I also use only W231 in mine as I use it for all my Pistol cartridges and it meters really well in the D550B. Bullseye will work just as well.

Brass: don't worry about the brass. Pick up, clean it and run it thru your normal sizing die and load them. If you are loading on a progressive press then I tumble it first and use a Carbide sizing die. .45 ACP is not one of the cartridges affected by the "Dreaded Glock Bulge" you hear so much about. The .45 ACP is also one of the most forgiving rounds to reload there is due to the low pressure that it operates at.

My Glock 21SF has had exactly two Factory loaded rounds ran thru it. The rest have been my reloads using either Copper Plated or PC'd boolits. In fact I bought the gun because I had picked up so much .45 ACP Brass I could no longer ignore it.

As far as your choice of guns I can only submit that I have a G36 which only holds 6+1 rounds. I really like the gun and can hit with it fairly well. It has both the slim slide and frame. I got some Pearce Mag Extensions for all my Magazines so that I have a full grip on the gun. They allow me to have all four fingers of my support hand on the grip, as opposed to only having three, and it also supports the heel of my hand better. This is Personal Preference. I also have a Blade Tech Paddle Holster for the gun.

I live in CA so the only time I carry this gun is in my shop or at the range or at Front Sight. I can't really talk about protrusion of any of the other things you might be concerned about.

But what I can say is that you can't go wrong with any Glock. They are not really "guns," they are "tools" that launch boolits... And when looked at in that context,,, they are second to none.

Hope this helps and feel free to ask more questions.

Randy

[luky-dude]

pm sent

[fredj338]

As noted the rifling is polygon, no true lands & grooves as conventional rifling. I have shot 1000s of lead only loads in my 1st gen G17. Just clean the bbl more often. Most guys will tell you a SWC is a no go in the G36, I agree. Iffy in a G30 as well. SO feed it a RN or TC for best results. You can certainly after market bbl for piece of mind or just PC or HT coat.

[clum553946]

I carry both the 30 & 27. I also use the fobus paddle for the 30 which I carry during the winter. Being only 5'7" I carry the 27 in the summer as the 30 doesn't conceal well for me under a tank top. I have the KKM barrels for both that I can shoot cast bullets with, but actually practice with Xtreme copper plated hollow point bullets the same weight & velocities of my carry ammo. I use 231 for the 40 & WST for the 45. They're both surprisingly accurate. I've shot both in Steel Challenge in a backup gun category we have & did really well! The trigger didn't take long to get used to either as they're much better than the earlier generation's triggers. Hope this helps. Also, as stated before by WR Buchanan, there's no issue with the bulge in 45 acp as the pressure is lower & the base of the brass is pretty thick.

[45workhorse]

Which one "feels" best in your hand?
Will it do what you want, conceal easy......
Don't skimp on the holster, if it ain't comfortable you won't carry it.
Practice, practice, practice.

[AnthonyB]

I much prefer the 30S over the 30SF.
Tony

[44MAG#1]

So far my M30 Gen4 has not had a hiccup with the Saeco 058 SWC. with a 330" meplat and 215 gr weight.
Load them to 1.175" and with Power Pistol they do just fine.

[Tim357]

My observations with boolits of the swc design in a G30 are ungood. While the RCBS 200gr swc was plenty accurate, and they feed well, the empty case hangs up on the shoulder of the next cartridge in the magazine whilst being ejected. Lyman 452488 feeds like butter.

[Catshooter]

bedbugbilly,

You're welcome. Overlooking a thread is easy to do.

Some good replies here. But this bit: " Just like any other gun they shoot Lead boolits just fine as long as the boolits fit the barrel correctly. Correctly on a .45 cal. Glock barrel means sized to .452. " is not the case.

It's quite true that fit is King, but sometimes hardness can matter. I have found that my Glocks prefer not only as oversized as I can chamber, but they want hard too. Ten rounds will give me significant leading with air-cooled alloy. The same exact boolit but water-dropped gives me zero leading. The water-dropping will usually give me about 20 on the Brinell Hardness Scale. Air cooled is 12 with the same alloy.

As for .452 is all you need, I'd say maybe. Maybe not. Glocks are just like every other firearm in that they can be over or under sized too. As an example I have a Glock in 40 that measures .403. So the normal .001 over won't cut it.

Likewise, I've had a .45 that had a .4501 bore and wouldn't chamber anything much over .451.

So in my experience the only hard 'n fast rule in casting, loading & shooting is there aren't any hard 'n fast rules. I've had three G21s over the years and they would all feed, chamber & cycle with the classic Lyman Keith 452424 semi-wadcutter.

Good luck with yours.


Cat

[44MAG#1]

It's funny how people can have such widely different results. My Glock M30 Gen4 feeds that Saeco 058 fine. Not a bobble since I got above the light loads
This happens with everyone at times.
Someone will come on here with a question and will get very differing results and advice by many saying they have trouble with such and such gun and load and another will have nothing but praise for the same.
Same with bullet shape, weight and powders and loads.
Goes to prove. A person needs to put in the time doing his own testing in his own gun.. Then he/she will know instead of relying on other experiences which may or may not apply to his/her situation.

[bedbugbilly]

A big "thank you" to all that responded as it has been very helpful. Not being a "Glock person", it has cleared up a lot of mis-conceptions I had concerning them and while I may not drink the entire pitcher of the "Glock kool-aid", I am pretty well sold on the 30SF or 30S in regards to either one of them meeting what I want in a new carry gun.

44Mag#1 - I agree with you wholeheartedly about regardless of other's experiences, you still have to put the work in to it for your particular handgun. I primarily shot revolver for over 50 years and everyone I've owned, and I have quite a few, are different and like different things. My experience with center fire semi-auto has been pretty limited. I started with 9mm like most folks do - first I bought was a SR9 and it was an excellent shooter for my cast but I sold it when I got my 9mm Shield as I liked shooting the Shield so much that the SR9 didn't get much use.

My only previous experience with a 45ACP was with a Colt 1911A1 that I was given about 164 or so - it was pristine and had had been brought back from WWII by a Navy Pilot. I was a kid and I shot it some but with off the shelf ammo - and I wasn't a "marksman" by any means. I sold it a few years ago as it was truly a "collector's piece" along with the original holster, mags, mag pouch and pistol belt. Now, I wish I hadn't but at my age, it would have been sold at some point anyway so no regrets I can't live with.

I was one of those who didn't have much interest in the Glocks until I saw some being shot and started studying them a little, watching some "decent" reviews (i.e. those such as Hickock45, etc.) that give the positive and the negative. No handgun is "perfect" but my interest really got sparked when I saw how the frame had been changed on the 30 with the SF being available - i.e. not the grip that felt like a 2 X 4. I want to move to the 45ACP and a little higher capacity that I am now carrying for personal reasons and the 30 looks like it is just what I'm looking for - simple, reliable, accurate and above all . . . as mentioned . . . a good "tool". I have looked at other's of similar size, capacity, etc. but I keep going back to the Glock.

At any rate, it has helped to get the information that I was looking for and I appreciate other's sharing their experiences with the Glock rifling and lead boolits and especially the answers to my questions on the 45 ACP. Plus, it has shown me that I need to think more seriously about trying and getting my feet wet with PC as I think it would benefit in a lot of the other calibers I reload. Sometimes an old dog can learn new tricks! :-)

Thanks!

Jim

[HeavyHev]

I would rent one from a range before you buy it. The grip angle is different enough that it sours people on the platform quite easily. If you like the way it points and feels (you can reach all the controls with relative ease), then I would say get yourself a new pistol.

As Catshooter mentioned, you will want to slug your barrel so you know what diameter you need. I ran into the same problem with him in that my G34 required a much harder alloy than expected. As close as 1 yard I was key-holing with range scrap alloy. Tossed in a mix of RotoMetals to harden it up and it now shoots as well as factory plated projectiles.

I wouldn't recommend going straight for a new barrel quite yet. I'd spend the money on ammo and a holster. I think you will be hard pressed to be a better shot than the OEM barrel can provide especially in a subcompact.

As for damaging the gun, in a low pressure cartridge coupled with the rock solid design of the Glock platform, you will be hard pressed to damage your gun. In fact, I would wager you would have to actively try.

[Tackleberry41]

I think alot of the issues that came with lead and glocks, is the overly hard, improperly sized, not very good lube ones being sold by various places. A barrel can lead up pretty quick under such conditions. Maybe that rifling contributes to the issue, and quickly there were kabooms. So not so knowledgable new loaders, big problem, in here where people know what they are doing cast in a glock is not an issue.

I have never seen the issue with glock bulge, I see it alot w 40 cal range brass. Never seen it being an issue, regular die takes it right out. And it was more of an issue with the older glocks with less case support.

[bedbugbilly]

Thank you fellas. I figured that I would need to slug the bore and usually do on any new handgun. As far as a new barrel, I would be waiting on that until I see how it shoots with the OEM barrel.

When I bought my Shield, I got it at a LGS that I have purchased from for years. The fellow that waited on me shoots IDPA at a nearby club and he knows I reload. We were discussing that "little" hobby and he showed me some PC'd boolits that they had just started to carry and he was having great success with them. I believe the company is SNS. He gave me a deal on a box of 500 RN 9mm to try - first PC'd I'd ever loaded and shot and I was really pleased with the results out of the 9mm - yep, I know - different rifling and different animal form a Glock but, I looked and they have several designs of 200 gr and 230g PC'd available in .452. The nice thing is that you can buy sample packs o 100 so I'm thinking I may buy an assortment of sample packs to try out in the Glock when I get it. If they don't work - I can always find someone on here who maybe could use them. "IF" I could fine one that works well out of the Glock, then I would probably just purchase 2 or 3 K of them which would last me quite while. If not - then move on and keep trying. I really have enough casting to do for my other cartridges that for this particular pistol, if I don't cast for it, it's not going to make me cry.

Thee is an indoor range up in Tucson that I have shot at a number of times and I am going to call them and see if they possibly have one that I could rent and run a couple of boxes of ammo through. I know a lot of folks have issues with the grip angle, etc. but I have learned over the years that I can pretty much adapt to things that may be a little different. I have a Ubdrti Bisley in 357 that I love (I love SAA revolvers). I have let others shoot it as a lot of folks never have held a Bisley. Just about all of them, when done shooting it, hand it back and say "How in the #$%$ can you shoot that thing? I jus smile and tell 'em . . . "you learn".

[Catshooter]

bedbug,

I got into Glocks in late '89. Have tried to use the 21/30 platform, but they are just too thick for my hands. I've been a 45 man for more than 40 years, but it was no go with Glock.

Sorta by accident I fell into a G37, the full size .45 GAP. Same frame as the 9/40, just the upper is bigger. They shoot very well, cast & reload just like an ACP. The G39 is the same size as the 26/27 but 45. Do love mine.

Just FYI. Good luck with whatever you get.


Cat

[35remington]

Given you already carry a Shield, is there some reason the Shield in .45 is not being considered?

[bedbugbilly]

35 Remington - I have nothing against the 45 Shield and at some point, may get one.

What it boils down to for me is grip width and capacity - capacity - 45 Shield - 6 +1 & 7 + 1 - Glock 30 - 10 + 1 and the capability of back up magazine of 13.

I carry OWB in both AZ and MI - shirt tail or jacket covering so yes, the Glock is thicker but very doable for me with a Fobus paddle holster.

It's a "personal" thing - I usually carry a Smith 36 J frame or the 9mm Shield. In most SD situations, people usually think of a scenario with 1 aggressor. A situation arose for me this last year - in MI - and we live in a rural area. Without going in to detail - a situation arose with 2 people looking to break in to my house and had I not come up from the basement in time, I could have walked in to two druggies and have been easily overpowered. Fortunately, it worked out and they left and were unsuccessful - only to be picked up in another county two days later and charged with home invasion in three counties as well as assault - all to feed their heroin drug habit.

In AZ, we are about 40 miles north of the border and a lot of stuff goes on out here that most folks never hear about. Not only in the nearby city but out in the wide open spaces as well. While all of us hope that we will never be put in a position to have to defend ourselves, I'm a "realist". I worked ambulance and fire rescue for a number of years and I've seen more than my share that still keeps me awake some nights. And . . . things are not getting better.

As a result, I have been rethinking my "carry" and have decided to step up to the 45 as well as more capacity. I'd rather have it and not need it that to need it and not have it - things we all have to consider for our individual situations and decide on. Thirty years ago, I would not have thought that someday I would be carrying but time and today's world has changed that.

And yes . . . I've been at this long enough to know it's all about "shot placement" but I also know that there are also situations whee there are more than one bad guy that is wiling to do you harm . . and I have also seen the result of those situations.

The 45 Shield is certainly a good pistol and is very reliable and at some point, I will get one I'm sure - especially for cases where my attire may require a thinner handgun for CC. But, for capacity and grip width for me, it's not the one that meets what I'm looking for. I've looked at several of the Springfields as well as other makes and I keep going back to the Glock.

[35remington]

Hmm. I guess I'm confident enough that two guys would not have led me to consider a reappraisal of seven or eight shot potential.

If that is where you are at I cannot question it.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Jim: I am into Jeeps and Jeeping and have been in AZ many times. I would never even consider going 4 Wheeling any place without at least a Pistol,,, and never into the Desert without a Carbine or High Power Rifle.

The problem with these places is that you are alone and people tend to get Froggy when in that situation. There is no immediate consequences for their actions. Stupider types are easily swayed into criminal actions by their buddies, and especially if you run up on them while they are doing something Illegal.

I always went along with my Jeep Club and we were always well armed, so there was safety in numbers so to speak but you still have to be very aware of your surroundings at all times. We were never within 40 miles of the border and this was 10 years ago anyway. Things have changed dramatically down there, and hopefully the new Regime will shut that ship down completely, but still if you are out in that area having a gun on you is only real way to insure your safety.

If we move to AZ I would always be armed even if it was only my NAA Pug.

I want to make something else known to you. You need to get trained!!! When you are in AZ you are close to Gunsite, or only a little further away from Front Sight in Pahrump NV. Attending some Pistol Training Courses will be a real eye opener for you or anyone else who thought they knew how to shoot. The training is far more Important than what pistol you choose, as it provides knowledge and experience that works with any gun.

I currently have 3 Glocks a G21SF a G36 and a G35 and I'm looking for a used G23 to round out my pistol group. If I was carrying daily I would be using the G36. As you know it only has a 6+1 capability. However I would also be carrying 3 extra mags so I'd have 25 rounds on me. Because I have attended numerous Front Sight Classes I am reasonably proficient at Changing Mags and running the gun, so 6+1 is not that big a handicap for me. Also with the Pearce Mag Extensions I have a full grip to work with instead of the two finger versions of all the Sub Compact Glocks. They are available for G30's as well.

However the G23 would allow me to have 25-50 rounds on me, and if I got into a situation where I was pinned down it would be nice to have the extra ammo. Hopefully I would be close enough to be able to fight my way to my S2K and be able to unleash some real firepower.

But these scenarios are all in my head and hopefully they will stay there. But being proficient is still a good idea and it is fun to learn in these range settings and you get to shoot a lot, so its a good thing.

You never know what evil lurks in the hearts of men.

Randy

[bedbugbilly]

While my original post was concerning Glock and lead, etc. - I will respond with my thoughts as to why I am changing my ideas concerning what I want to carry and just apologize in advance for doing it in the cast boolit forum.

35remington - you asked, I answered and I take no offense in your reply to my answer. What and how to carry is indeed a "personal" thing and we all have different thoughts on it. If you feel confident that you could handle two or multiple individuals wanting to do you harm with the handgun you carry, then I would say that you are carrying what you feel comfortable with. No harm/no foul on that at all.

I have been shooting for over 50 years now and I also feel confident in my shooting abilities. But those "abilities" are practiced by me often and in what I consider a "controlled" atmosphere and situation. We can practice all we want to - both in drawing, getting on target and shot placement. BUT, no matter how much training a person does, it will never prepare you for an actual situation when you may need to defend yourself. Yes . . . you hope that your training pays off but just how will you react? Ask anyone who has been in a situation where deadly force is being attempted against you. It doesn't make any difference if it is LE or a combat veteran . . . every time will be different and you will more than likely react differently due to a wide variety of issues . . . your mental state, your acute awareness of what is actually happening, your stress level, etc.

A person can practice all they want to. I carried a 5 shot J frame for quite a while. Training is different for everyone and usually it is start with a double tap and pause for effect. BUT, all the factors affecting you at the time can cause you to react differently. I can empty a 5 shot J frame in a snap of a finger. If a person reacts that way, what then when a second or third perp attacks? A little late to take your shots back so you have some left over. If you have ever deer hunted and experienced "buck fever" . . . then multiply that many fold when it involves other people. Can you be sure that if attacked whether it be by someone coming at you with a gun, a knife or a club . . that you will be able to draw, point and shoot in a matter of seconds and place your shots or are you going to be firing "blindly" and hope that you hit? The answer is, no one knows for sure until it's all over.

In the experience I had last summer, had the two been able to gain entry in to my house, they would have come at me from the back and the front. Would I have been able to hit both if necessary? I don't know but I highly doubt it.

I am not a combat veteran nor LE . . . but many years ago, I was shot at as we arrived on the scene with our ambulance at a night time call. The city I worked in had undergone a lot of racial tension and it was not a good situation. As we pulled up to the given location, I excited the rig and instantly, there was a gunshot and I felt the heat of the bullit on the lobe of my ear as it went by and took out one of the emergency beacons on top of the rig. At that time, for all calls we had to a certain section of the city, we immediately called for LE backup. The cruiser was right behind us and the call ended up being a "set up" and the shooter was never found. A week later, we received a call to the same part of town for a 10 year old boy who had been riding his bike and had been struck by a car. It was a legit call and again, LE back up was requested. We arrived on the scene, I took in the situation and it was the car that had struck the child, the child in the street and only two or three bystanders. I went to the child and began to assess his injuries and saw that I would need to apply a traction slit to his broken leg. I was oblivious to what was going on around me as my job was to work on that child. After checking him thoroughly, I turned to yell to my partner that I needed a traction splint and it was then I discovered that I was surrounded by about 100 people form the neighborhood, most carrying ball bats and tire irons tell me they were going to beat me to a pulp - all racially motivated by their anger over the homicide of a 12 year old black child that was murdered exception style during a home invasion and robbery that they blamed the white community for. I don't hold the to blame for their feelings nor am I being critical of them as I fully understand their feelings at the time. BUT . . . to this day, I can still remember the fear I had at the bullet going past my ear and how close I came to being killed as well as the feeling I had at being surrounded by a mob who meant to do me harm. Fortunately enough police arrived and forced the large group back so I could treat the child and we could transport. I was a "professional" and yet I did not react in the way I had been trained to do and I make no apology for it. My point is . . nobody . . . absolutely no one . . . knows how they will react in a situation where they may be forced to use deadly force to protect their life. Will 5 be sufficient? Will 7 or 8 be sufficient? Heck, will 10 be sufficient? You just don't know but I personally will feel better knowing that I have a higher capacity if ever needed. So that is my choice. Others may feel differently and that is alright as well.

W.R. . . . you make some very good points and I appreciate your response as well. AZ is a little different than many states. A few years ago, they did away with the requirement for a CCW license - but you can still get one. It's a little odd as the rules are different in some things between those who carry without being licensed and those who are. Example - those who are not licensed cannot carry in to a bar - those with a license can but you cannot consume alcohol. Different in where you can carry as well. I chose to take the class just so I could be aware of the laws of the state. I had excellent instructors - LE and SWAT team members. They trained us well and made us aware of many things that do go on in the state, especially with the gangs (we are south of Tucson and Tucson has gang activity), coyotes bringing illegals through, drug situations, etc. and most of all, the importance of recognizing and avoiding situations, the importance of scanning constantly for multiple perps and how to read another individual's body language. One of the best courses I have ever taken. For my Michigan CPL, I again had excellent instructors - LE, Swat Team members and former military special ops. Again, I felt very fortunate to have the instructors I had as I learned more that day than any other course and they were tough on us but fair and since the class was very small, they spent much extra time with us individually sharing their experiences and teaching us how to react. BUT . . . each one of them made it a very strong point that even though they had been in personal encounters, they never knew how they would react each time. As the one former special ops. fellow said . . . "I learned very quickly that if someone was trying to kill me, I kept firing until they were down and that's sometimes very hard when multiple individuals are coming at you all at once". Good training is important and I try to get as much of it as possible, even if some of it may be repetitive.

Your comments about AZ are well spoken. I am not paronoid or scared and as a result, feel the need to carry a big bore high capacity firearm . . . but I am aware that a lot of stuff goes on that folks in other places never hear about. Where we live, I10 goes from the border north. Even with the Border Patrol checkpoints, a lot of things get through including drugs and human smuggling. Coyotes cross the border bringing illegal north - they take payment from then to od it and once here, it's not uncommon that they go into the cities and find a vacant house where they hold them hostage while they contact their families back across the border demanding money so they can be released. There are special units of the BP that search the desert for bandits who are out there to rip off the drug smugglers coming across the border. They re often armed better than the BP and there have been cases where the BP has had to follow policy to shoot them with bean bag shotguns while the bad guys are armed with AK47s. There are miles of roads where there are few houses and not much traffic - all it takes is to be broken down and the wrong people to come along. My wife and I do not hike the desert but as you state, a person doesn't want to without being armed and preferably with a hand gun and a rifle "just in case" as you could easily walk in to a situation that you don't want to.

Again, I'm not being an alarmist, I'm being a "realist" and while there are many many good people out there, one has to realize that there are also many who would do you harm and not bat an eye over it. A while ago, a friend of mine who is an OR nurse was called in for an emergency surgery in the wee hours of the morning. She has to travel I-19 and she was driving faster that she should have been to get to the hospital. She got pulled over by a state trooper for failing to signal as she was merging on the freeway from an entrance ramp. He ran her before approaching the car and of course it came back that she had a state CCW license. He approached her car and asked if she was carrying and she said she wasn't. He told her why he had pulled her over and she explained that she was on her way to the hospital as she had to scrub for an emergency surgery. He gave her a warning about the traffic infraction but then lectured her for five minutes as to why, if she was licensed for CCW that she SHOULD be carrying at all times.

So in the end, I guess what a person decides to carry is determined by their personal experiences and what they are most comfortable with in regards to handgun, caliber and capacity. I truly do pray that I am never put in a situation where I would be forced to harm another human being to protect myself or anyone else from deadly force. But in my years of working ambulance and fire rescue, I have seen the results of senseless homocide and injury and what one human is capable of doing to another. I have some friends that are pretty much on the "left" and they asked me one time why I felt the need to carry a firearm. My answer to them was a simple one. I refuse to be a "victim".

[wlkjr]

I'm a little late to this party but I'll throw in my 2 cents worth. I shoot a 30S in GSSF competition and have grown to really like it. At first I was ready to throw it in the river but after learning the trigger pull I have gotten much better with it.
As for using lead bullets, I cast my own but coat them with Hi-Tek and size them to .452. I started with plated 200g, moved to 230 plated, tried 230g Bayou Bullets which I really like, and eventually settled on 230g RN coated with Hi-Tek. I have found the HT coated take less powder to function than plated. My preferred load is 3.3g Bullseye with the 230g coated. It functions in my 30S perfectly but not my friend's Gen4. I have to bump up to 3.5g for his to work. All that is a matter of break in and testing different loads.
I don't think you'll be disappointed with a 30S. The heavier slide on the SF or Gen4 will probably lessen the recoil just a little. Might not make that much difference. I would recommend installing Pearce extensions on the magazines. They give me a much better grip. Talon granular grips are also a nice addition. I don't carry mine but do have a nice Blackhawk Serpa holster.
I also have a 30 Gen4 and a G41. It takes a little higher charge for those two. I don't have any kind of leading problems in any of those. Once you get a handle on the Hi-Tek coating, it's a snap and from what I understand, a little easier than powder coating.

[35remington]

I understand the explanation but there are limits. Two individuals I can handle, I hope .A mob? You'll be dead no matter if it's a five or fifteen shot pistol.

If you are facing more that a couple of armed people likely you will get shot before you can shoot all your adversaries. One must be careful that capacity does not give unwarranted confidence. The longer a shooting carries on the less likely you are to survive it.

At some point disengaging is smarter than shooting. Probably as soon as possible is a good policy. If someone honestly can carry a high cap pistol all the time more power to them.

Hot sweaty summer days make fat pistols troublesome for me.