1999 Buick lasabre

[rl69]

a friend has a Buick.it was runing rough and stalling out,now it wount start at all. I can hear the fuel pump runing. It threw a throttle position sensor code. would that cause it not to crank?

[rancher1913]

just because you hear the pump running does not mean its pumping, you need to pull the fuel line and see if fuel comes out. I would put more fuel in the tank and try to start before you get in to deep, it might just be out of fuel---been there done that.

[Finster101]

A no start and a no crank are two different things. Which do you have?

[OeldeWolf]

I have been out of the shops for a couple of years, and do not have current access to the databases. That stated, I do not remember a case of a TPS keeping it from cranking. TPS problems are not uncommon, as I recall, though. Not that difficult to replace a TPS, as I recall, and not terribly pricey. I would check the standard no crank/no start checklist, were I you. Did it throw the TPS code while it was still running? Can you still talk to the ECU, now that it is not running? On a lot of chrysler systems, if a sensor shorts out, it can ground the voltage that half the ECU runs on. But IIRC, that never stopped them from cranking.

[BUCKEYE BANDIT]

If it's no START,look for spark at one of the plug wires (possible coil pack or connector) also ground terminal lug on block (several small and medium size wires all together).You can check for fuel flow at the shrader valve on the fuel rail (valve stem looking cap) WATCH YOU EYES WHEN DEPRESSING!!!!
A no start and a no crank are two different things. Which do you have?

[rl69]

I guess it won't start? It will turn over but it not eaven tring to bust off.

The last I talked with him it was runing but rough,surging and dying,whenever he slows down. After doing some digging on the net I was hoping for mass air flow sensor. When I got there this morning I found out it would no longer start.

Preacher borowed a scanner from autozone I plugged it in and took it back to them. AutoZone told me of the TPS code.

I am not a mechanic, a parts changer at best, and even that is pushing it.:)

with it trowing a TPS code I guess I will change it first,Then check fuel pressure?

[Finster101]

The TPS will usually not keep it from starting. Before you start changing parts spray some carb or throttle body cleaner in to it and see if it tries to start. If it does it's not getting fuel. If it doesn't look for spark/ignition issues.

[6bg6ga]

I will mention something when it comes to codes and code readers. The only reader I would accept as being right is GM's Tech reader with the GM car. The cheap code reader will give codes that probably aren't correct and the choice of a parts store isn't the correct place to get good information. I took our Cadillac SRX to auto zone and borrowed their code reader. I then had my son bring the GM reader from work and it gave the correct information.

[Finster101]

I will mention something when it comes to codes and code readers. The only reader I would accept as being right is GM's Tech reader with the GM car. The cheap code reader will give codes that probably aren't correct and the choice of a parts store isn't the correct place to get good information. I took our Cadillac SRX to auto zone and borrowed their code reader. I then had my son bring the GM reader from work and it gave the correct information.


As a GM tech I completely agree with you. There are also many codes that can be set that will not keep the car from running.

[funnyjim014]

Engine needs: fuel , air, spark and compression. Find what your missing

[starmac]

Verify spark FIRST.
Verify fuel in tank'
verify fuel pressure, in this order.
Just because the pump is running, does not meaning it is pumping enough pressure to light off.
Just because you get fuel out of the line does not mean it has enough pressure to light off either.
Could be a bad filter, but if filter is run long enough to keep it from starting, it is because it has ruined the pump.

Autozone probably has fuel test loaner kits.

[rl69]

Im realy thinking fuel that's enough reason to check spark if I get time tomorrow I'll check pressure and fire

[tomme boy]

Crank position sensor. Is it the 3.8?

[tomme boy]

And I bet you the fuel filter has NEVER been changed. That was the most common thing that would happen to that motor. Then it would burn up the pump.

[fixit]

a simple thing to check would be the intake hose. i diagnosed a ford product at a parts store one day that was 'surging' at idle... would rev to abt. 2500 rpm, drop off to almost die, then rev back to 2500, over and over, sometimes die sometimes rev and drop on and on. the hose between the air cleaner and the engine had a huge split in it, so the mas air flow sensor couldn't function. engine sounded like it was going to blow! if a leak in this hose was big enough, i suppose it could keep the engine from starting

[fixit]

also this engine needs a minimum fuel pressure in excess of 30 or 40 psi, to run, so i definitely not rule out a weak fuel pump! my daughter had a 92 lesabre that gave me fits in diagnosing a weak fuel pump!

[abunaitoo]

To check if it's a fuel problem, pull off a hose going to the intake, spray some starter fluid in it and put it back.You can try carb cleaner, but I find starter fluid work better.
Try to start it right away.
If it's a fuel problem, it will run for a second or two.
If it will not run, you have other problems. Need to dig deeper.

[6bg6ga]

Why don't you just stop the shade tree mechanics now and simply take it to a GM dealer? In the long run it will be a lot cheaper than throwing parts at in in the hope that you'll get it running.

[Finster101]

Some of us aren't shade tree mechanics and have given a basic starting point with simple methods that anyone can do to at least get pointed in the right direction. That being said it is often cheaper to take it to a shop than just start throwing parts at it and if it does turn out to be a fuel pump on this car I would not want to do it on the ground.

[rl69]

He is Retired and on a fixed incom and I live week to week. Pore folk have pore ways

[6bg6ga]

I know that your not because you work for a dealership don't you? You say your a GM tech so that means your required to have many hours of training time and certifications. My son has those and is in the top 25% of the GM techs in the country. Some here however aren't qualified and therefore can spew out information that isn't good is costly and can send the owner down the wrong path. That being said I highly recommend simply having it go to a GM dealership where it can be dignosed and repaired. this most times will end up in the long run to be cheaper.

[6bg6ga]

He is Retired and on a fixed incom and I live week to week. Pore folk have pore ways

To be honest here I have seen too many times when people with the best interests of those their trying to help can end up costing them more money trying to fix something.

We have everything in the mix here from fuel filter to crank sensor to throttle position sensor to you name it. Logic and common sense in my opinion haven't entered this thread. Its highly unlikely the throttle position sensor decided to move itself on its own. Did anyone mention or ask how the engine ran before the problem started? I don't recall seeing it. Anyone have a fuel pressure gauge that they stuck on the engine yet? Don't think so. Again how did it run before the problem started? If it ran fine you can probably rule out the fuel filter but you do need to see it it has pressure. Anyone find that fuel pressure gauge or do I need to mail you mine?

I can see where this thread is going and the parts that someone will start replacing so I still highly recommend either take it to the dealership and I mean dealership instead of some fly by night shop that thinks they are on par to actually work on it. Second thing is approach one of the mechanics when they get off work and ask them if they will look at it for you and be sure to offer them something and at that point mention that you'd be happy to pay them but cannot quite afford to take it in to the shop. Some of them will moon light for some extra cash and you'll get the job done right because they are professionals. Maybe you could make a trade for some bullets or powder or something along that line.

Once the problem has been diagnosed correctly with the tech II the owner can go on line and purchase parts cheaper than they can get them from the local parts suppliers.

On the SRX we have I purchase 4) new rotors for $100 shipped to my door. I then ordered 4) wheel bearing hub assemblies for around $100. I paid my son to take off the original wheel bearing hub assemblies and put the new on and I changed the rotors and replaced the brake pads. I saved a lot of money by shopping around. The GM wheel bearing hub assemblies were $259 ea.

[Plate plinker]

The MAS can be checked by disconnecting it from the harness. It cost nothing to check. ��

Also you might try giving the sensor harnesses a jitter. I had that problem on the old truck, after 15 years things get loose and cruddy.

[Geezer in NH]

Put 2 gallons of gas in it to start. Poor folk will run out.

[starmac]

6bg6ba Who has suggested throwing parts at it.
There is not a whole lot will keep one from at least starting, and most can easily be checked without buying the first part, or taking it to a dealer.

Like mentioned
fuel
spark
compression

If it has these it will start.
If you don't have the tools to check these, most parts houses loans them with a deposit.
Personally I would not be taking it to a dealer if it needed a major overhaul, unless it is under warranty.

[tomme boy]

Starmac, exactly! Most of the time you do not need a scanner but just common sense. Unhook the engine side of the fuel filter is all that is needed to check the filter. Or check the schrader valve at the regulator. Pull a plug and put it against the block or head or whatever to to check for spark. And like others said to just spray some carb cleaner or ether in the throttle body and see if it takes off.

Or take it to a shop other than the GM dealer as it is old enough that the GM code reader is not needed. Most all shops are going to have a OBD reader. Not the light flashing one most parts dealers have that they let you use. I have access to a friends shop and they buy new readers every couple years from Snapon or Mac. They both make really good readers. They are nothing like the part store ones.

[rl69]

To be honest here I have seen too many times when people with the best interests of those their trying to help can end up costing them more money trying to fix something.

We have everything in the mix here from fuel filter to crank sensor to throttle position sensor to you name it. Logic and common sense in my opinion haven't entered this thread. Its highly unlikely the throttle position sensor decided to move itself on its own. Did anyone mention or ask how the engine ran before the problem started? I don't recall seeing it. Anyone have a fuel pressure gauge that they stuck on the engine yet? Don't think so. Again how did it run before the problem started? If it ran fine you can probably rule out the fuel filter but you do need to see it it has pressure. Anyone find that fuel pressure gauge or do I need to mail you mine?

I can see where this thread is going and the parts that someone will start replacing so I still highly recommend either take it to the dealership and I mean dealership instead of some fly by night shop that thinks they are on par to actually work on it. Second thing is approach one of the mechanics when they get off work and ask them if they will look at it for you and be sure to offer them something and at that point mention that you'd be happy to pay them but cannot quite afford to take it in to the shop. Some of them will moon light for some extra cash and you'll get the job done right because they are professionals. Maybe you could make a trade for some bullets or powder or something along that line.

Once the problem has been diagnosed correctly with the tech II the owner can go on line and purchase parts cheaper than they can get them from the local parts suppliers.

On the SRX we have I purchase 4) new rotors for $100 shipped to my door. I then ordered 4) wheel bearing hub assemblies for around $100. I paid my son to take off the original wheel bearing hub assemblies and put the new on and I changed the rotors and replaced the brake pads. I saved a lot of money by shopping around. The GM wheel bearing hub assemblies were $259 ea.

thank you for your offer but I can find pressure gauges around here. and don't worry I'm not about to start throwing money at it hopping it will fix the problem.

In the op I stated the car was running rough surging and stalling out. This lead me to believe it was the MAF sensor after getting there I found out its now not starting. ( I pulled the connection on the sensor no change )

Pay day I will get the licens renewed on my spare truck.I'm going to let him borrow that tell we can get his car fixed,so I can take my time to find the problem.

The biggest issue I have is time to get over there to work on it

[daniel lawecki]

Crank sensor.

[6bg6ga]

6bg6ba Who has suggested throwing parts at it.
There is not a whole lot will keep one from at least starting, and most can easily be checked without buying the first part, or taking it to a dealer.

Like mentioned
fuel
spark
compression

If it has these it will start.
If you don't have the tools to check these, most parts houses loans them with a deposit.
Personally I would not be taking it to a dealer if it needed a major overhaul, unless it is under warranty.

If your going to try to quote me then try to get it right.. I suggested NOT throwing parts at it.

[wv109323]

hold the throttle partly depressed and crank the engine. this may indicate a bad tps.

[6bg6ga]

You do realize you can check the TPS with a volt ohm meter.

[15meter]

Why don't you just stop the shade tree mechanics now and simply take it to a GM dealer? In the long run it will be a lot cheaper than throwing parts at in in the hope that you'll get it running.

I wonder where this came from:

You know your cheap when..
You know you cheap when you repair your own TV. Had the two year old Samsung 58" SMART TV go belly up last weekend.

Being extremely cheap I had the wife help me set it down face first on a table downstairs. I removed the back to expose its inner guts. Three boards came into view the power supply board, main board, and T-con board. Being that the set was running and suddenly died horror filled my mind since I had let it run a brief moment to go upstairs for a Coke. I returned to find it off and unable to turn on. Anyway.. exposed I took my meter to check the fuse on the main board and found it open. Simple, I removed the board to check the components I could that weren't surface mount and everything looked ok. I'll replace the fuse. I did and replaced the board in the TV and tried to power it up with no luck. Checked the fuse again and it was open.

The wife came around to ask if I wanted to go out and buy a new TV. New TV? I'll throw $100 at this one first before dropping $600> for a new one.

Well, power supply board has a problem. Is this problem a result of the main board? Threw my hands up in the air opened the computer up to ebay and ordered the three boards with a total cost of less than $80.00

Got the boards the other day and installed them. The TV once again fired up and ran better than new.

When it was new and I fired up the Netflix feature Netflix would start and it would be really fuzzy and out of focus. Should have taken the TV back to Walmart right away but I blamed Mediacom for its rather poor signal and quality. Its either running good or extremely slow and I have the 100 meg package.

At any rate the TV is fixed, less than $80.00 and no $150.00 minimum fee to have the TV diagnosed at the TV shop.



Touche!

[6bg6ga]

Well friend to be blunt here I' m qualified in a number of fields. Some here couldn't fix their Briggs & Stratten lawn mower engine. There is a difference between being qualified and being to proud to have someone qualified to fix it. As I already mentioned I can see where this thread is headed because I've seen it happen before. The owner will probably take the advice from someone not qualified to give it and start a blanket parts replacement plan.

[Finster101]

Guys let's not turn this fellas thread in to a pissin' match. Everyone is just trying to help.

[blackthorn]

T'were me I would "call the guy", but the OP has already indicated that unlike some of us the ($)cost is a big factor. I have been in that position and it is not an enviable one! Telling someone to just go hire an expert is (in MY opinion) not going to be too helpful. I know next to nothing about mechanicals after about 1969 (or so) and I applaud the OP's determination to help out one less fortunate than he is, to the extent that he can. My opinion!

[jonp]

Crank position sensor. Is it the 3.8?

^^ or a clogged fuel filter. Start with the fuel filter, the easiest thing and work upwards from that. No I'm not a professional but when fixing stuff I start at the cheapest and work my way around. If the pump sounds like it's working then it probably is. Next step is fuel, getting any? When was the last time you changed the filter and would it hurt to spend $10 to change it now?

Ok, changed the fuel filter and cranked the engine with the line off and got fuel whats the next step? Spark? Are you getting one and if not why?

[starmac]

Getting fuel out of the line means NOTHING. This is not your old 327, you have to have pressure and it cost exactly nothing to see if you have it.
The pump running and making noise means NOTHING, again it has to put out the right amount of pressure, actually more and the pressure regulator cuts it back.

[abunaitoo]

Sounds like he's just trying to help a friend in need.
Both might not have the tools or knowledge to diagnose these newer systems.
Good friends like this are hard to find.
.
Things have really changed.
With older systems, the basic are still the same...(for now)....
Fuel
Spark
Compression
Timing
Looks to have a series II 3.8L
As I posted, the easiest way to test for fuel is...
Get a spray can of starter fluid.
Look for a large hose going to the intake.
Spray for 1 second into the intake.
Put back the hose and try to start it.
If it's a fuel problem, it will start and might run for a few seconds.
If it does, you know it's a fuel problem.
You'll need to test the pump and fuel injection system.
Not really a back yard mechanic job.
If it will not start, it could be any number of things.
Newer systems are not like the older cars.
Need to not only know basic auto engines, but also electronics.
That's why I like old stuff so much.

[starmac]

Most sensors will not keep them from starting, they might throw codes and run bad, but will still start and run.
Whatever made this one start running bad is most likely the culprit and will be fixed once you get it to start, by going back to the basics.
The crank sensor can keep it from running, BUT it only takes a minute to check foor spark.
I am not a fan of either but if you spray a little in and it hits on one or more sensors, then you know it has spark, and now you need to diagnose your fuel system, you can change the filter if you want to waist money, but if it has stopped up enough to no longer start, it has ruined the pump EVERY time.
The parts house will loan you the proper test kit for the fuel pressure and it comes with the proper fittings, litterally a 10 or 15 minute deal for anybody to check.

The systems are complicated, but a no start is still the basics, and easy enough to at least get running.

[tomme boy]

Starmac, that is one reason they don't put a fuel filter on a lot of cars now. No one ever changed them. They figure the sock in the tank is good enough anymore. Unless it is a diesel. It usually will not burn up the pump if there is no filter. But most people can not change their own oil sooooooo

[Plate plinker]

Well friend to be blunt here I' m qualified in a number of fields. Some here couldn't fix their Briggs & Stratten lawn mower engine. There is a difference between being qualified and being to proud to have someone qualified to fix it. As I already mentioned I can see where this thread is headed because I've seen it happen before. The owner will probably take the advice from someone not qualified to give it and start a blanket parts replacement plan.

Dude give it a rest. Besides the OP says the guy cannot afford a mechanic.

[6bg6ga]

Starmac, that is one reason they don't put a fuel filter on a lot of cars now. No one ever changed them. They figure the sock in the tank is good enough anymore. Unless it is a diesel. It usually will not burn up the pump if there is no filter. But most people can not change their own oil sooooooo

Evidently some of the car manufacturers haven't heard they weren't putting fuel filters on them anymore. Cadillac SRX for example still uses a fuel filter. I suggest you look underneath the car near the fuel tank and I'll bet you'll find one.

A little logic here.... the car manufacturers aren't going to opt out on a $5 fuel filter when it could mean plugging up a $400 set of injectors especially if that meant there would be a warranty claim on the car in question. I'd put money on a fuel filter being on the new cars. A brief search on Chevy and I found fuel filters for 2017 models.

[6bg6ga]

Dude give it a rest. Besides the OP says the guy cannot afford a mechanic.

Just like you dude..trying to help. Just pointing out that throwing parts at something when using a non GM scanner isn't the answer. Even the Mac and several other scanners out there are NO match for the Tech II GM scanner. I will still maintain my view that an accurate scan from the GM Tech II is a hell of a lot better than the Mac.

My son has been a certified GM tech for at least 20 years. He got on the Mac band wagon and purchased their top of the line scanner only to have it stay in his 30K tool box with 60K worth of tools only to have it unused because the Tech II was superior. As he found out the Mac gave deceptive codes the Tech II didn't.

[Plate plinker]

Don't care what your son does this guy is doing it his way on his dime.

[6bg6ga]

Mind your own business please. I can post just like anyone else here. deal with it :D

[jcwit]

Are you trying to help the OP, or bragging about your boy and how much he has spent on tools!

Sounds like the latter, I doubt the OP could care less!

[Lloyd Smale]

crank position sensor would be my guess but just a guess. I'm with 6bg6ga though. If you have to ask on a cast bullet forum where to even start looking your in over your head and will end up spending more throwing parts at it then taking it to a certified mechanic that might find all it is is a bad wiring connection and since when on here is being proud of your sons accomplishments a negative thing. Jcwit I sure don't see your post helping he original poster much either. At least 6bg6ga is trying to help. All your post brought was sarcasm.
Crank position sensor. Is it the 3.8?

[Plate plinker]

Well post away big guy, just be constructive and polite. :wink:

[jcwit]

that would be my guess. I'm with 6bg6ga though. If you have to ask on a cast bullet forum where to even start looking your in over your head and will end up spending more throwing parts at it then taking it to a certified mechanic that might find all it is is a bad wiring connection and since when on here is being proud of your sons accomplishments a negative thing. Jcwit I sure don't see your post helping he original poster much either. At least 6bg6ga is trying to help. All your post brought was sarcasm.

Like I said, I doubt the OP cares one whit about 6bg6ga Son's accomplishments or how much the boy has invested in tools. Nothing more than bragging.

Maybe one should look at what the cost of getting a reading from the super duper scanner really is.

[tomme boy]

Evidently some of the car manufacturers haven't heard they weren't putting fuel filters on them anymore. Cadillac SRX for example still uses a fuel filter. I suggest you look underneath the car near the fuel tank and I'll bet you'll find one.

A little logic here.... the car manufacturers aren't going to opt out on a $5 fuel filter when it could mean plugging up a $400 set of injectors especially if that meant there would be a warranty claim on the car in question. I'd put money on a fuel filter being on the new cars. A brief search on Chevy and I found fuel filters for 2017 models.
GM's are the ones that seem to be burning up the fuel pumps more often than all others. I wonder why? There is a filter in the tank on all the other makes that does not use a external filter. It is a sock type filter and it works fine. GM's have always had problems with the fuel pumps burning up because the owners did not ever change the filters.

Lots of makers don't use a external filters Chrysler is one and a bunch of the foreign market also.

[leadman]

I would either use starting fluid or carb cleaner to make sure the engine mechanicals are still capable of working properly. Have seen too many worn out timing chains and/or belts. If it runs normally while giving it small shots of fluid then check the fuel pressure with a gauge. Some of the older GM products will not run if the pressure is even a couple of pounds low. Putting gas in the tank is also a thought if it is low, the owner should know how the gauge in the dash shows fuel.
A check of all the engine fluids should also be done before working on it. There are folks that do not do this and don't realize what the consequences are.
We had so many GM products with no start problems our wrecker drivers would tap on the bottom of the fuel tank with a dead blow hammer by the pump to get them started. This was when the cars were in our downtown multi-level parking garages or the underground garages where getting a wrecker into was difficult. One of our mechanics found that the fuel pump brush springs were getting weak and the brushes were sticking in the holders and not hitting the armature. The hammer blow would most times jar them enough to get the car to run. We did replace the pumps.

[starmac]

I do not know who all does not use a filter anymore, but do know that dodge pickups at least quit using filters on their gas rigs in the 90's. It was hard for me to wrap my head around at first, but it is what it is.

[6bg6ga]

Don't care what your son does this guy is doing it his way on his dime.

Sir, you seem to crawl into every thread and try to police it. You are no way a moderator. I wasn't trying to brag but simply make a point that a lot of mechanics have learned the hard way that Mac simply isn't the greatest and is out performed by the GM Tech II scanner.

I suggest that instead to trying to police this thread you try to contribute something useful. In other words some useful experience as a result of you valuable experience.

[6bg6ga]

GM's are the ones that seem to be burning up the fuel pumps more often than all others. I wonder why? There is a filter in the tank on all the other makes that does not use a external filter. It is a sock type filter and it works fine. GM's have always had problems with the fuel pumps burning up because the owners did not ever change the filters.

Lots of makers don't use a external filters Chrysler is one and a bunch of the foreign market also.

I'll explain to you why a very small number of GM owners do burn up their fuel pumps. Their fuel pumps are in the tank in the lowest part. The fuel covers the pump and when the fuel level isn't high enough to cover the pump the pump gets hot and goes bad. In other words owners run the fuel to the "E" on the gauge when they should be gassing up before you hit the "E" so the pump stays covered with fuel and the pump doesn't get hot.

As to fuel filters getting clogged up.... I've taken off probably 100 of them in the last 16 years and none were clogged up to the point of not passing fuel. Also, there is a fuel bypass which allows fuel to go back to the tank in the event it either isn't used or cannot get thru the filter.

This is a classic example why I highly recommended that the vehicle be diagnosed with a GM Tech II tool. There are too many and this includes some of those so willing to help in this thread that are providing information that isn't factual or isn't true.

Then again gentlemen I don't know anything either after all I play around with street legal 1/4 mi toys that see everyday on the street and live to go to the drag strip on the weekends. Not bragging just stating a fact.

My suggestion for the thread starter

1.) Borrow a fuel pressure gauge
2.) Crank the engine for 15 seconds and record the pressure.
3.) Leave the gauge on the fuel rail and the pressure will stay. Note how long the pressure stays before dropping down.

Do this before preceding any further.

[Lloyd Smale]

or the space you've wasted attacking him. Don't see where you even made an attempt to answer the op question! Even plate plinker although a little rude did try to answer the op question. You? nothing but personal attacks. Bottom line 6bgbga's main point is with todays computerized cars its sometimes cheaper in the long run just to let the pro's diagnose it rather then throw money at guesses or opinions you gleamed off the internet. I'm a back yard mechanic myself and have learned that less on more then one occasion. I personaly wouldn't rely on any opinion I got on a cast bullet fourm for help with fixing my vehicle to start with. theres better places to ask those questions. Places where people that really know hang out. Not wanabe mechanic and internet experts
Like I said, I doubt the OP cares one whit about 6bg6ga Son's accomplishments or how much the boy has invested in tools. Nothing more than bragging.

Maybe one should look at what the cost of getting a reading from the super duper scanner really is.

[6bg6ga]

GM's are the ones that seem to be burning up the fuel pumps more often than all others. I wonder why? There is a filter in the tank on all the other makes that does not use a external filter. It is a sock type filter and it works fine. GM's have always had problems with the fuel pumps burning up because the owners did not ever change the filters.

Lots of makers don't use a external filters Chrysler is one and a bunch of the foreign market also.

Your right in one respect. There are some Chrysler products that don't have external filters. They have their cartridge filters mounted inside the tank instead. Great idea Chrysler now one needs to pull the tank to change the filter. The point here is they still use filters.

[rl69]

Wow has this thing blown up

first I want to thank everybody for y'all's help! it truly is a Godsend to have such good people to bounce ideas off of. I truly appreciate it

as to what I think. I'm truly happy for 6bg6ga and his son. Your advice was probably the best it just wasn't practical. Charles is 74 years old and has just about outlived his savings. And My mechanical skills or a bit better then I let on (not much ) I've been dirt pore my whole life and if I wanted anything I either built it ,or fixit myself.so I'm not exactly inept I just don't like experimiting on other people's stuff. So I get as much advice as I can get.

The one thing in this thred that got my hair up is the statment about looking for advice on a cast boolit forum. I can think of no better place for advice then here! We have the greatest group of minds on the net gathered together right here. Master mechanics master electricians hell we had a full fledged rocket scientist at one time. This isn't just a cast boolits forum it's a think tank for the everyday man

so a new peace of the puzzel was given to me yesterday at church. Charles told me his gas gage was out, ( my heart sunk i dreaded telling y'all ) I asked how he knew he had gas,he said "he has only put 180 miles on this tank, and he fills up at 300 miles". Ok,then he tells me how somebody had stole gas from his mower. so today after work me and a budy rode out there with 5 gallons of gas,and it started right up. We ran it down to the station filled it and reset the trip counter.its embarrassing but praise God he is back up and running.

He was at the prison doing ministry work when we were there,so I wasn't able to give him a hard time but I'll get him agian thank y'all

[fixit]

i forgot to ask my standard long distance diagnosis question 'do you have gas in it' you'd be amazed at how many time the response has been something along the lines of 'let me get back with you!'

[Hannibal]

:popcorn:

[rl69]

i forgot to ask my standard long distance diagnosis question 'do you have gas in it' you'd be amazed at how many time the response has been something along the lines of 'let me get back with you!'

:)
i did ask the question just didn't dig deep enough :)
life is good

[Finster101]

Good news and not embarrassing on your part at all. You were dealing with the info you had.

[6bg6ga]

Wow has this thing blown up

first I want to thank everybody for y'all's help! it truly is a Godsend to have such good people to bounce ideas off of. I truly appreciate it

as to what I think. I'm truly happy for 6bg6ga and his son. Your advice was probably the best it just wasn't practical. Charles is 74 years old and has just about outlived his savings. And My mechanical skills or a bit better then I let on (not much ) I've been dirt pore my whole life and if I wanted anything I either built it ,or fixit myself.so I'm not exactly inept I just don't like experimiting on other people's stuff. So I get as much advice as I can get.

The one thing in this thred that got my hair up is the statment about looking for advice on a cast boolit forum. I can think of no better place for advice then here! We have the greatest group of minds on the net gathered together right here. Master mechanics master electricians hell we had a full fledged rocket scientist at one time. This isn't just a cast boolits forum it's a think tank for the everyday man

so a new peace of the puzzel was given to me yesterday at church. Charles told me his gas gage was out, ( my heart sunk i dreaded telling y'all ) I asked how he knew he had gas,he said "he has only put 180 miles on this tank, and he fills up at 300 miles". Ok,then he tells me how somebody had stole gas from his mower. so today after work me and a budy rode out there with 5 gallons of gas,and it started right up. We ran it down to the station filled it and reset the trip counter.its embarrassing but praise God he is back up and running.

He was at the prison doing ministry work when we were there,so I wasn't able to give him a hard time but I'll get him agian thank y'all

Since you brought this up I will comment. First of all my mentioning that my son had an extensive tool collection was no way bragging. It was an attempt to educate some here that people like him have experience purchasing tools and making mistakes doing so, So many get caught up with the Mac name and the Mac products. They aren't the best and it took old Dad to educate him not to purchase $300 worth of their VOM just because it has a Mac name on it. yes, he has one Mac VOM meter and one Fluke now and has learned the difference in cost can buy more needed hand tools.

As to the comment on going to a Cast Boolit Forum for auto information. As I have pointed out there are a lot of well wishers internet experts and generally some that just run their mouths.

First before coming here and posting the thread you should have checked the gas or maybe I should have said lack of it. Secondly the people here some at least aren't experts in the auto repair field. Some are good others can simply steer you in the wrong direction. What would have been your best move would have been to go to a GM Forum which there are hundreds and most are frequented by actual mechanics that thrive on being number one and answering all your questions.

I agree with Lloyd 100% in this forum is no place to pose automobile questions unless you can find someone that is actually a genuine trained GM, Ford, or Chrysler mechanic with certificates and not your run of the mill Jiffy Lube oil change monkey or your local Firestone, Goodyear, Sears, or Monkey ward wanabe mechanic in name only.

I'm glad you got it running but I do fear that if you hadn't checked the gas this thread would be running on for another month with hundreds of dollars being spent for un-needed parts.

For the record..... I was 100% correct in your best move if you did have gas in it and it still wouldn't start would have been to spend the money you don't have to get a correct assessment from a qualified GM mechanic using an actual GM Tech II analyzer to obtain an analysis of the situation which would have resulted in your total parts bill being LESS than it would have been if you had tried to use a run of the mill analyzer.

Now, take a damn fools advice and change the fuel filter now because the fuel has been drained down to the point where the pump has pulled in all the **** from the bottom of the tank and is well on its way of filling the fuel filter is this junk. It will run ok for a while and get steadily worse. Its about a 10 minute job with line wrenches and yes you will loose a little gas but its the correct thing to do at this point in time.

[Lloyd Smale]

theres forums just for car problems. I wouldn't go to a buick car fourm and ask questions about casting bullets so why would I go to a cast bullet fourm for answer on a serious problem I was having with my car. Instead of experts and certified mechanics you will get wanabe experts like me and most of the others that are doing nothing but taking a guess at it! Kind of comical that it created this big stir and bad feelings between some and you didn't even check to see if it had gas in it.

[6bg6ga]

theres forums just for car problems. I wouldn't go to a buick car fourm and ask questions about casting bullets so why would I go to a cast bullet fourm for answer on a serious problem I was having with my car. Instead of experts and certified mechanics you will get wanabe experts like me and most of the others that are doing nothing but taking a guess at it! Kind of comical that it created this big stir and bad feelings between some and you didn't even check to see if it had gas in it.

I have a certification but then again its just a piece of paper that one could use to wipe their bottom with. Let me see now Lloyd you had one of the fastest Grand Nationals that I can remember that didn't have 50K in the engine. You did the work yourself. In my book that would seem to qualify you as better than a wanabe.. or a backyard mechanic. I've seen experts than couldn't diagnose a problem and I've seen people with plain common sense and logic that could.

To my twisted line of reasoning it would have made more sense to steer away from this forum and go to a Buick forum with actual trained Buick mechanics. Then again it would have made sense to look at the gas gauge see it was empty and dump 5 gal into it before preceding but then again that's me.

In my line of work in the audio field I run service calls every day sometimes I drive 250 miles one way to analyze, repair and or correct a situation so a system will function correctly. I use the service ticket only as a means to acquire the address of the business I am going to visit. Anything written on the ticket I take with a grain of salt simply because there could be an error in what was written down or the person trying to communicate the problem didn't know his or her butt from a hole in the ground. Observation is key to finding diagnosing the problem so one can solve the problem.

This same approach needs to be taken with any auto problem. First thing is observation. Is there gas in the tank. Is the battery sufficient or is there a problem there. Is there fuel pressure or is it bleeding down promptly. What is the pressure is it within the specifications. Is there spark? What did it run like prior to its non-running condition. These are key factors prior to doing anything or suggesting anything.

Like I mentioned despite the objections stating that the car owner didn't have the money to get the vehicle scanned using the GM Tech II scanner. I'll be blunt here.... if you don't have the money to have the car scanned you probably don't have the money to repair it either. What would have been spent if one assumes the car actually had a problem would have been made up by the cost of less parts being thrown at it. As I tried to point out and I can back this up is the Tech II is superior to the MAC unit. The MAC unit consistently seems to throw erroneous codes that the Tech II won't which equates to less money spent. The Mac is better than scanners you can purchase or use from the parts stores but that is about all I can say.

[Lloyd Smale]

I'll be blunt here.... if you don't have the money to have the car scanned you probably don't have the money to repair it either. What would have been spent if one assumes the car actually had a problem would have been made up by the cost of less parts being thrown at it. THIS IS FACT unless you forget to put gas in it:groner:

[jsizemore]

I'm curious. Would one of those high tech tools have seen no gas in the tank?

[edler7]

so today after work me and a budy rode out there with 5 gallons of gas,and it started right up.

Occam's razor in action. Been there, done that. Glad that's all it was.

[starmac]

I'm curious. Would one of those high tech tools have seen no gas in the tank?

It wouldn't have, and no reason at all to throw parts at one if you don't have a high tech scanner either.
The scanners do make diagnosing a problem quicker, but it can be done without them.

The reason I said in my first post is to verify gas, is it is very common for folks to think they have a problem when they are out of fuel.

I myself changed a fuel pump on a winnebago motorhome, when the only problem was NO GAS. I ask the owner and he told me he just filled it. After I poured 5 gallons of gas, I quizzed him, he was driving down the interstate, no0t like someone could have stolen it.
It turns out he had fueled 200 miles down the road and had no clue how bad a New Mexico headwind burns gas when you are driving a huge box.

[Three44s]

I own a 91 Buick w/ a 3.8L. I was experiencing a similar situation and it seemed to indicate a fuel filter change was in order.

The V6 would run a short time and die.

I had a tow ordered but lucked out and limped to my preferred shop instead.

I told the shop owner of my suspicion and then left it.

It turned out that the crank position sensor was bad.

Now they ran it as things were still not completely right.

They found that the ignition module was also hay wire.

They also changed the fuel filter as I insisted on.

I did not go to the local GM dealer for a very good reason, lack of trust with the particular one we have.

Three 44s

[jcwit]

Still wonder what the cost for scanning with the super duper scanner would have been from the stealer ship?

For some reason no one has answered that.

[6bg6ga]

Still wonder what the cost for scanning with the super duper scanner would have been from the stealer ship?

For some reason no one has answered that.

Probably the reason you won't get an answer is you are deliberately try to start something. I suggest that you take your vehicle there and report back with the cost:D

[6bg6ga]

It wouldn't have, and no reason at all to throw parts at one if you don't have a high tech scanner either.
The scanners do make diagnosing a problem quicker, but it can be done without them.

The reason I said in my first post is to verify gas, is it is very common for folks to think they have a problem when they are out of fuel.

I myself changed a fuel pump on a winnebago motorhome, when the only problem was NO GAS. I ask the owner and he told me he just filled it. After I poured 5 gallons of gas, I quizzed him, he was driving down the interstate, no0t like someone could have stolen it.
It turns out he had fueled 200 miles down the road and had no clue how bad a New Mexico headwind burns gas when you are driving a huge box.

I wouldn't be proud of changing the fuel pump when you should have been asking when the gas was added and how far they had driven. A look at the gas gauge might have been a tip off too.

[6bg6ga]

I own a 91 Buick w/ a 3.8L. I was experiencing a similar situation and it seemed to indicate a fuel filter change was in order.

The V6 would run a short time and die.

I had a tow ordered but lucked out and limped to my preferred shop instead.

I told the shop owner of my suspicion and then left it.

It turned out that the crank position sensor was bad.

Now they ran it as things were still not completely right.

They found that the ignition module was also hay wire.

They also changed the fuel filter as I insisted on.

I did not go to the local GM dealer for a very good reason, lack of trust with the particular one we have.

Three 44s
You probably haven't noticed that the shop rates for little shops are almost as much as the dealerships. One of the differences is the large dealerships have the correct tools to work on your car whereas the little shops will whine and cry that they need more money for the same work. I've watched my boss try to save $100 and end up spending $800 in the process.

just out of curiosity you knew the vehicle needed a fuel filter how? Did you toss a coin? Do a fuel pressure and volume and leak down test? Look at the owners manual for suggested maintenance per the miles on the car?

[Geezer in NH]

Wow has this thing blown up

first I want to thank everybody for y'all's help! it truly is a Godsend to have such good people to bounce ideas off of. I truly appreciate it

as to what I think. I'm truly happy for 6bg6ga and his son. Your advice was probably the best it just wasn't practical. Charles is 74 years old and has just about outlived his savings. And My mechanical skills or a bit better then I let on (not much ) I've been dirt pore my whole life and if I wanted anything I either built it ,or fixit myself.so I'm not exactly inept I just don't like experimiting on other people's stuff. So I get as much advice as I can get.

The one thing in this thred that got my hair up is the statment about looking for advice on a cast boolit forum. I can think of no better place for advice then here! We have the greatest group of minds on the net gathered together right here. Master mechanics master electricians hell we had a full fledged rocket scientist at one time. This isn't just a cast boolits forum it's a think tank for the everyday man

so a new peace of the puzzel was given to me yesterday at church. Charles told me his gas gage was out, ( my heart sunk i dreaded telling y'all ) I asked how he knew he had gas,he said "he has only put 180 miles on this tank, and he fills up at 300 miles". Ok,then he tells me how somebody had stole gas from his mower. so today after work me and a budy rode out there with 5 gallons of gas,and it started right up. We ran it down to the station filled it and reset the trip counter.its embarrassing but praise God he is back up and running.

He was at the prison doing ministry work when we were there,so I wasn't able to give him a hard time but I'll get him agian thank y'all

Post #24 I said put gas in the tank.

Post kept going

[Powder Burn]

Well, for what it's worth, I owned a 1999 Buick LaSabre? It was the wifes car. About two years down the road it would turn over but not start. Still under warranty and it died in the garage so dealership sent out tow truck. Long story short, the "sensor" somewhere went bad. I guess it was sort of common for these engines. I believe it was a V6. Sold it years ago and I can't remember exactly what the service man said. Possibly something to do with timing and the sensor was located on the front of the engine housing. Wish I could be more help.

[jcwit]

You probably haven't noticed that the shop rates for little shops are almost as much as the dealerships. One of the differences is the large dealerships have the correct tools to work on your car whereas the little shops will whine and cry that they need more money for the same work. I've watched my boss try to save $100 and end up spending $800 in the process.

just out of curiosity you knew the vehicle needed a fuel filter how? Did you toss a coin? Do a fuel pressure and volume and leak down test? Look at the owners manual for suggested maintenance per the miles on the car?

So tell us big guy, what's the cost to have a scann done at the stealership? For some reason you refuse to address that!

BTW, my cost per hour at our local indy repair shop is $80 bucks an hour.

Cost at the semi local "45 minutes away" is over $140 bucks an hour.

Plus at the local shop I'M allowed to purchase my own parts, and save a bundle that way also!

Now then the shop has been in business for 50 years now, his son now is presently the service tech.

[jcwit]

I'll be blunt here.... if you don't have the money to have the car scanned you probably don't have the money to repair it either.

Horse apples!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sawinredneck]

It's around $175 to have a diagnosis done at a dealership, most times they'll roll that off the repair bill if you let them fix it, but not always.
As far as the fancy GM and even Ford scanners don't cover as much as you think they do, it wasn't until 2002 that manufactures really started utilizing all the odbii ports. Much like the jump from pre-96 with the hodge podge of connectors with odbi. Odbii created the standardization between manufactures, but it still had limitations in its early stages.
As for scanners, I have a decent Matco and two friends with the latest Snap-on that you have to go to school to use. But they are only as good as you are, it shows you the symptom, you still have to find the cause.

[jcwit]

So don't throw any parts at it but rush out and blow $175 bucks on a scan, no wonder the owner doesn't have enough cash to fix the vehicle after getting the scan!!!!!!!

LOL


Thank God he had enough common sense to pour $12 bucks worth of gas into it!!!!

[Plate plinker]

:popcorn: It just gets better.

Btw the internet is a great resource for fixing stuff.

[1911sw45]

At the chevy dealer here is 375.00 just to hook up the scanner. If u have them do the work u pay the 375.00 plus parts and shop time.

[Plate plinker]

Wow that is steep. I could replace 5 to 7 sensors for that much money.

[jcwit]

Wow that is steep. I could replace 5 to 7 sensors for that much money.

Hey there! Quit throwing useless cash spent on parts to fix something. LOL:kidding:

[Finster101]

At the chevy dealer here is 375.00 just to hook up the scanner. If u have them do the work u pay the 375.00 plus parts and shop time.


That price is ridiculous. The Chevy dealership I work at now charges an hour for diag. I'm sorry, my tools and knowledge are worth something. This thread has gotten blown way out of proportion.

[6bg6ga]

At the chevy dealer here is 375.00 just to hook up the scanner. If u have them do the work u pay the 375.00 plus parts and shop time.

This is BS Prove it.

Dealerships near me are by the hr.

[6bg6ga]

That price is ridiculous. The Chevy dealership I work at now charges an hour for diag. I'm sorry, my tools and knowledge are worth something. This thread has gotten blown way out of proportion.

Its just the backyard wanabe mechanics trying to prove they know something. Guys stick to something you might be able to repair like your Briggs lawn mower engine.

[sawinredneck]

That price is ridiculous. The Chevy dealership I work at now charges an hour for diag. I'm sorry, my tools and knowledge are worth something. This thread has gotten blown way out of proportion.
whats an hour? I've worked on lawn mowers, that was $45 an hour, I've worked on skidsteers, that's $75+ an hour, I've worked on cranes, that's $125+ an hour. This was back in the '90's mind you. I had to buy an anolog dvm to read the codes on my '91 Ranger, wrap your heads around that one!
Sory Finster, not arguing, just agreeing with your point.

[sawinredneck]

Its just the backyard wanabe mechanics trying to prove they know something. Guys stick to something you might be able to repair like your Briggs lawn mower engine.
Sir, ask your very well tooled and educated son what a diagnostic test costs, then report back. I doubt you will

[sawinredneck]

This is BS Prove it.

Dealerships near me are by the hr.
I'll even throw another one at you, as your son is so well schooled! I had a 2004 GMC Envoy show up two years ago, drive it over 100 miles and the brakes locked up, all four tires, smoking hot!
I'll give you time, no hurry. But don't you ever, sir, ever again, call me a "back yard mechanic!" I did an engine swap in a Ford Exploder, 4.3l, in my driveway, it was taken to the dealership three months later, head cracked again, they stated they could not have done the swap and wiring harness as cleanly as I did.
Ive been involved with Shindawa from the beginning of their 4 stroke involvement, I've known Koler engines since the '70's. I've rebuilt John Deere transmissions in places you can't fathom! I'm one of four people in the state of Kansas that WILL tear apart and rebuild a hydrostatic drive pump!
I'll stress this again, DO NOT call me a "shade tree mechanic".

[6bg6ga]

The going rate for most dealerships in my area is $100.00

First of all don't throw my son into this. Secondly your ability to change an engine doesn't qualify one to call you a mechanic. Are you certified? As for changing engines in the driveway. I've done that for the last almost 50 years. I pulled the engine out of my 93 Z-28 Camaro out the top when they said it couldn't be done. Rebuilt it and put it back in from the top. I have a certification because I went to the trouble to take the test back when certification first came into play simply so I would have a backup plan in case the factory I worked at closed down. It did and life went on for me.

As for calling you a backyard mechanic I wasn't particularly calling you out but if the shoe fits wear it. If your not certified your a back yard mechanic. This is the same as not being certified in HVAC. I'm not certified in HVAC yet I did it for years but still it doesn't qualify me to call myself something I am not. My suggestion is either learn to live with being called a backyard mechanic or go take the tests and get certified. At any rate you are what you are.

As for qualifications.... I took tests to become a Master Machinist, quality control inspector, electronic technician, and certified auto repair technician among others. This is just a drop in the bucket as compared to others here. I am humbled when I see what people like Duke Nukem or jmorris can do.

[Lloyd Smale]

If a dealer charged me more the one shop hour of labor testing my car id be writing to GM to complain and for sure finding a different dealer. If you were charged 375 bucks you weren't only screwed, they used a telephone pole.

[6bg6ga]

If a dealer charged me more the one shop hour of labor testing my car id be writing to GM to complain and for sure finding a different dealer. If you were charged 375 bucks you weren't only screwed, they used a telephone pole.

That's exactly why I find the $375 story hard to believe. I firmly believe the $375 story was yet another attempt to prove why they don't need their vehicles to be taken to the dealer.

[jcwit]

First of all don't throw my son into this. .

You are the one that threw your own son into this fracus!

[jcwit]

As for changing engines in the driveway. I've done that for the last almost 50 years. I pulled the engine out of my 93 Z-28 Camaro out the top when they said it couldn't be done. Rebuilt it and put it back in from the top.

As for qualifications.... I took tests to become a Master Machinist, quality control inspector, electronic technician, and certified auto repair technician among others. This is just a drop in the bucket as compared to others here. I am humbled when I see what people like Duke Nukem or jmorris can do.

Again nothing short of bragging, do you have an ego problem or did you stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

Just what is your problem with those that are able to fix "whatever" without having some super duper piece of paper that hangs on the wall.

[6bg6ga]

Sir, usually those incapable of doing anything are the ones offended by those that can. Really don't care what you think. You have contributed absolutely nothing to this thread other than stirring the pot. My problem with those thinking they can fix whatever is generally they flock things up good then others that are qualified repair what these so called fix its have tried to fix. I run into this every single day in the industry I work in. I've had my fill of the so called musicians and wanabe sound operators going into DSP programing trying to make changes by their "tuned Ear" the result is generally an unworkable system. This is why I have hundreds of files saved on either CD's or memory sticks of as built files. In the auto industry I've seen so much butchery by these back yard mechanics that I have zero respect and nothing but contempt for them. My company provided service van has been abused by Goodyear monkey mechanics in the past only to have my brakes that they just worked on go out within 300 miles of them working on it. The result was no brakes and me almost hitting a semi. I managed to get it home and spend my time re-doing what they had done. I didn't enjoy working on my van in 20 degree weather in my driveway because the van is too tall with the ladder racks on it to fit in my garage with 9' doors. So it is my contention that repairs need to be made by qualified people not just some moron that can put together a John Deere transmission that has pronounced himself a mechanic just because he got lucky.

[Plate plinker]

Thats a mighty high horse your sitting on. Better wear a helmet. Good grief.

[jcwit]

Sir, usually those incapable of doing anything are the ones offended by those that can. Really don't care what you think. You have contributed absolutely nothing to this thread other than stirring the pot. My problem with those thinking they can fix whatever is generally they flock things up good then others that are qualified repair what these so called fix its have tried to fix. I run into this every single day in the industry I work in. I've had my fill of the so called musicians and wanabe sound operators going into DSP programing trying to make changes by their "tuned Ear" the result is generally an unworkable system. This is why I have hundreds of files saved on either CD's or memory sticks of as built files. In the auto industry I've seen so much butchery by these back yard mechanics that I have zero respect and nothing but contempt for them. My company provided service van has been abused by Goodyear monkey mechanics in the past only to have my brakes that they just worked on go out within 300 miles of them working on it. The result was no brakes and me almost hitting a semi. I managed to get it home and spend my time re-doing what they had done. I didn't enjoy working on my van in 20 degree weather in my driveway because the van is too tall with the ladder racks on it to fit in my garage with 9' doors. So it is my contention that repairs need to be made by qualified people not just some moron that can put together a John Deere transmission that has pronounced himself a mechanic just because he got lucky.

Proven once again that most everyone has an opinion, usually of themselves as well!

Have you ever heard the least important word in the English language is "I". You seem to use it as well as our last POTUS did!

Never had those kind of problems with the company van my wife and I "sorry, no other way to put it" drove, course we were the owners of the van as well as the company!

At my age I am incapable of doing anything, other than staying alive. Hope to get a kidney, sooner than later!

[tomme boy]

Having a piece of paper means NOTHING! I know a lot of GM mechanics that are ASE certified that can barely do a oil change. I know a bunch of journeyman electricians that I would not let change a light bulb. I know some machinist that I would not let them near a lathe. You know why? They are idiots. A piece of paper means that they met the Minimum requirements.

Same as Doctors. Do you want the person that had a D- GPA or the person that had a A GPA? They are both certified as you say are the best because they have a piece of paper.

There are a lot of backyard mechanics out there that are just as good or better than 99% of the GM certified mechanics.

[6bg6ga]

gee I must have ruffled your feathers :D Keep telling yourself that

[sawinredneck]

Usually by the time things get to me, three or four other places couldn't fix it. I don't take on many jobs due to my health, but when they get to me they can't be in a hurry to get it back.
I love this "ASE" ****, guy across the street is a "master tech", I've had to help him do fuel pumps he couldn't figure out, he didn't have large enough pliers or a brake caliper piston tool, had to borrow mine, and couldn't figure out the trailer lights on his Goldwing and F150, he paid DUMB OLE ME to wire them both! He was a heavy line tech at a Ford Lincoln dealer for 15yrs!
ASE means "ask someone else".

[jcwit]

Whats amazing is that most everything is now available on the net, in one form or another.

[WJP]

Sir, usually those incapable of doing anything are the ones offended by those that can. Really don't care what you think. You have contributed absolutely nothing to this thread other than stirring the pot. My problem with those thinking they can fix whatever is generally they flock things up good then others that are qualified repair what these so called fix its have tried to fix. I run into this every single day in the industry I work in. I've had my fill of the so called musicians and wanabe sound operators going into DSP programing trying to make changes by their "tuned Ear" the result is generally an unworkable system. This is why I have hundreds of files saved on either CD's or memory sticks of as built files. In the auto industry I've seen so much butchery by these back yard mechanics that I have zero respect and nothing but contempt for them. My company provided service van has been abused by Goodyear monkey mechanics in the past only to have my brakes that they just worked on go out within 300 miles of them working on it. The result was no brakes and me almost hitting a semi. I managed to get it home and spend my time re-doing what they had done. I didn't enjoy working on my van in 20 degree weather in my driveway because the van is too tall with the ladder racks on it to fit in my garage with 9' doors. So it is my contention that repairs need to be made by qualified people not just some moron that can put together a John Deere transmission that has pronounced himself a mechanic just because he got lucky.
Why does the administration keep you here? Comic relief?

[sawinredneck]

Whats amazing is that most everything is now available on the net, in one form or another.
Indeed.
Im still waiting for an answer on the Envoy brakes locking up after 100 miles, two GM dealerships couldn't figure it out, I guess the "Tech II Scanner" couldn't find a code as none were thrown?

[starmac]

Who would of thunk a car being out of gas could cause such a whizzing contest. lol

A dealership shop is like anywhere else, only as good as their help, which can and does go either way.
Here the problem is the wait. The dodge dealer has had my sons pickup three weeks with no end in sight, they did get them a rental this week, but says they will only cover it for 2 weeks. The mechanic is not the problem.
He did his own headgasket on his cummins even when warranty would cover it, but they told him it would be at least 3 months out.
My boss just traded his new chevy off because of an injector problem, because they informed him it would be up to three months before they would even pull it in for diagnosis.

[Lloyd Smale]

don't know about ase certifications but have been around the electrical industry all my life as a lineman. I knew and worked along side of hundreds of journeyman outside and inside electricians and never met a single one that didn't know what he was doing. I met some that were lazy but then youll find that in any field. But by the time you go through an apprenticeship and pass a journeyman's test you are far from barely able to change a lightbulb. I know intelligent men who flunked that test.

So unless you have a ase paper on the wall or a have a journeymans certificate in electrical work or a journeyman machinists card you are sure no one to judge those who do. to say theres back yard mechanics that are as good or better then 99 percent of certified mechanics is just pure bs. Yes theres back yard mechanics that can build you a small block chev. Or rebuild a holley carb as good or better then a certified mechanic but where do you figure those back yard mechanics picked up all the knowledge needed to work on and tune and trouble shoot these new computer controlled cars or that are able to use or can even afford the high dollar diagnosing equiptment that is about mandatory to do it. Might find a few that have a code checker and multi meter like I do but no one in a thousand backyard mechanics has more then that. you might find some with a timing light and oscilloscope but there about as useful as an owners manual for the wright brothers air plane working on a computer controlled car.

theres a good reason that ANY auto repair shop that's owned anyone that's name isn't bubba has a ase certification hanging in plain sight. Bottom line is if my mechanic didn't hire qualified (certified) guys id find a different mechanic., Just like if my doctor was self taught in the back yard by his daddy and uncle id look very quickly for a different doctor. By the way what do you do for a living. Can anyone hop right in there and do your job as well as you can????
Having a piece of paper means NOTHING! I know a lot of GM mechanics that are ASE certified that can barely do a oil change. I know a bunch of journeyman electricians that I would not let change a light bulb. I know some machinist that I would not let them near a lathe. You know why? They are idiots. A piece of paper means that they met the Minimum requirements.

Same as Doctors. Do you want the person that had a D- GPA or the person that had a A GPA? They are both certified as you say are the best because they have a piece of paper.

There are a lot of backyard mechanics out there that are just as good or better than 99% of the GM certified mechanics.

[Lloyd Smale]

Aint that the truth. Anyone can come here and pretend he has the answer. Even if he thinks boost is a chocolate drink you consume to get your vitamins!!!! Or cam is the name of a football player. That's one thing you sure have right. The internet allows for some premium BS! Maybe do a bit of research on who you guys are bashing. Ive known 6b6ga for quite a few years. He and I got to know each other because we share a love of cars and racing. Hes has shown me some of his work and his supercharged Camaro that runs 9s. He has forgot more about cars then most of you know. Funny thing is he didn't even try to tell you he knew more then you. All he said was his son was qualified and certified. One thing you can bet your house on is that he is discussing a diagnostic tool he knows what it is. He didn't look it up on the internet and try to bs you. If you knew him like I did youd know how far off base you are and maybe if you really were as intelligent as some of you think you are youd be intelligent enough to sit back shut up and pay attention. You might acutally learns something that isn't bs off the internet
Whats amazing is that most everything is now available on the net, in one form or another.

[jcwit]

What I'm saying is that one can now buy programs that tell you how to fix most anything on said vehicle. The shop that my vehicles go to for service has this and yes they are ASA Certified, never said or claimed I was. I'M certified to change my own oil and filter, that's it. But I sure don't brag about it or how great my kids are doing or how much they have invested in whatever!

And my main word when referring to myself is not "I"!

Yes most everything is available on the net, just got to know where to look, I don't!

[jcwit]

Plus I'v been the route of spending a hundred bucks for a scan at the stealership to fix a $10 dollar part.

Never again!

[Lloyd Smale]

problem is most are like you and changing the oil is about the limit of what they can do. Seen many of men and women that could have the best instructions in the world in front of them and still couldn't do the job. Bottom line is experience means a lot more then an instruction book. Its why as a lineman I can climb a mean pole and fix your power in the middle of the worse storm but crack open the back of a tv set and watch me sweat. Or sit me at a desk with a computer and a pile of paper work and ill about puke. Put me in the operatating room of a hospital with a heart transplant and the best instruction manual in the world and it doesn't make you a doctor!. Just like owning every cop of chilton manual that was ever made sure doesn't make you a mechanic.

I half a## know a few things about working on computer controlled vehicles and my buddy who owns a shop that does a lot of (over my head) work laughs at me and says that if id just bring them to him first id save money in the long run. Not Lloyd! Hes to smart for that!! Hes got a code checker, a multi meter and a book that tells what codes are caused by what. Now when I get a check engine light I get my old code checker out and its says its code ___ It gives you about 6 things that can cause that code. Maybe 4 or 5 different sensors. Now if you don't have a service manual you start out by not even knowing where 2 or 3 are. If you find them you have to know how to test resistance and voltage across each sensor and know what the proper reading is for them. (again if you don't have a sevice manual your screwed.

Now your other choise is to start replacing the 6 things and hope you get lucky. Or post on a cast bullet fourm and get 12 different answers on what to replace or check (again not having a clue where or what they are) So again you just swinging in the dark. So each sensor costs between 50 and a 100 bucks (typical) some more very few less. How lucky do you have to be before you would have been smarter just to have someone that actually knows what there doing check it.
I know I do it more then I should. Yes I learn but they can be expensive lessons. You might win and come out ahead once or twice but id bet in the long run if you operate like that your going to end up loosing money. Its the exact same reason someone building a house doesn't run out and buy a pile of 14 2 wire and start stringing it when they've never even heard of 14 2 before they went to menards. Its why theres an electrical inspector. Maybe there should be a mechanical inspector for after some school teacher tears his brakes apart because he has a check brake alarm and gets it all back together and has maybe just two left over parts;) and heads out of the same road your wife is bringing the kids home on!

So if your one of those 1 percent who knows it all and can do it all then you have the right to criticize those who do it for a living. But truth be told theres VERY FEW knowledgeable mechanics here and if your not you sure shouldn't be climbing down the throat of someone else that is here just trying to help. Because his opinion is worth about the same as yours and mine is and that's very little. Now ask about bullet casting here and you might actually get a good honest answer. Cam sensor or what the difference is between a map sensor and a mafs is and you might get one that knows and 20 that look it up and pretend they know :lovebooli

[jcwit]

Lloyd, your not getting it yet.

No where did I claim to know how to fix anything!

I like a couple of others called out the bragging about how great he and his boy are.

As one said, he sits on a pretty high horse!

Where I excelled was sitting behind a desk managing others.

Others did well doing the work.

Both are needed to accomplish the goals at hand.

[sawinredneck]

I don't have a journeymans card so I guess my thirteen years in machine shops is null and void.
I don't have ASE certification, so I guess I shouldn't be able to work on cars.
I don't have an electricians cert so I shouldn't have replaced that outlet last week.
I don't have hydraulic certs so I shouldn't work on hydrostatic pumps.
My whole life has been a waste because I don't have pieces of paper lying about, good to know.

[jcwit]

I don't have a journeymans card so I guess my thirteen years in machine shops is null and void.
I don't have ASE certification, so I guess I shouldn't be able to work on cars.
I don't have an electricians cert so I shouldn't have replaced that outlet last week.
I don't have hydraulic certs so I shouldn't work on hydrostatic pumps.
My whole life has been a waste because I don't have pieces of paper lying about, good to know.

sawinredneck, AKA, the born loser! LOL:kidding:

[Lloyd Smale]

no its not a waste but you sure not going to convince me your any better at any of those jobs then someone that has a journeymans card or is certified. I have to wonder why youd even work as a machinist for 13 years and not pursue a journeymans ticked in case you ever had to move or get another job? Unless it was some small mom and pop machine shop. Not many big shops that have the best technology in tools that don't have an apprentice program. You may be a decent machinist with 13 years of experience but if you claim on to of that your as knowledgeable working on cars as a ase ceritified tech as good with wiring as a journeyman electrician I think your just pretty proud of yourself. Much more so then 6a6bga ever bragged on his son. Suppose you can climb a pole and hot stick 69kv voltage too. Probably do heart surgery when you come down.
I don't have a journeymans card so I guess my thirteen years in machine shops is null and void.
I don't have ASE certification, so I guess I shouldn't be able to work on cars.
I don't have an electricians cert so I shouldn't have replaced that outlet last week.
I don't have hydraulic certs so I shouldn't work on hydrostatic pumps.
My whole life has been a waste because I don't have pieces of paper lying about, good to know.

[Lloyd Smale]

I just don't see where the big problem is here with someone bragging on his son. Id bet you brag on your kids all the time. Unfortunately my only son is learning disabled. I'm very proud of how hard he trys in life and what he has to overcome. Bottom line is if he was a certified mechanic, a soldier, a carpenter, a machinist you would tire of hearing me brag on him. When the day comes on here that theres a rule against a guy coming here and bragging on his kids, and I don't care how blatantly he does it, will be the day I leave. IF he wants to brag and is proud of his son I sure am never going to criticize that. Bottom line is you and anyone else trying to tell him he shouldnt is bs. The only ones that will tell him he cant are the moderators. I'm sure if he got out of hand or off topic to far he would have gotten a pm. Sitting on a high horse proud of your kids???? they call that being a father!!
Lloyd, your not getting it yet.

No where did I claim to know how to fix anything!

I like a couple of others called out the bragging about how great he and his boy are.

As one said, he sits on a pretty high horse!

Where I excelled was sitting behind a desk managing others.

Others did well doing the work.

Both are needed to accomplish the goals at hand.

[jcwit]

I just don't see where the big problem is here with someone bragging on his son. Id bet you brag on your kids all the time.

Sorry Lloyd, no I don't, they stand on their own merits!

[jcwit]

Unfortunately my only son is learning disabled.

Sorry to hear that.

[jcwit]

Regarding "Pride" & "Bragging", take a look at the 8 Beatitudes from The Sermon on The Mount.

[jcwit]

Thank goodness the OP was able to find the fix without plugging into a scanner for $100 to $300 bucks.

[sawinredneck]

no its not a waste but you sure not going to convince me your any better at any of those jobs then someone that has a journeymans card or is certified. I have to wonder why youd even work as a machinist for 13 years and not pursue a journeymans ticked in case you ever had to move or get another job? Unless it was some small mom and pop machine shop. Not many big shops that have the best technology in tools that don't have an apprentice program. You may be a decent machinist with 13 years of experience but if you claim on to of that your as knowledgeable working on cars as a ase ceritified tech as good with wiring as a journeyman electrician I think your just pretty proud of yourself. Much more so then 6a6bga ever bragged on his son. Suppose you can climb a pole and hot stick 69kv voltage too. Probably do heart surgery when you come down.
I quizzed out honestly, on a score of nine I got a seven first try, that was going into a mold shop, building plastic injection and blow molds, a job you don't retire from, I'll let you do the research on that.
Ive worked in mold shops, built custom automated machines, tool builder and run 3-5 axis mills as well as 2-12 axis lathes with live tooling, even built some experimental bullets for Sirroco, first, and only time, I've dealt with a precision measurement by weight. Held a .1875 +-.0002" tollerence on a brass rotor for the fake horizon in an aircraft instrument, had lots shipped back just because of temperature changes!
Ive worked with a lot of the "Journeymen machinist" back in the late '90's, in fact the instructor was doing all he could to get me to come teach for him, but he couldn't make it worth my time, pm me, I'll give you his and my information for validation. But most of them couldn't machine there way out of a paper bag! I had to go train one on a six spindle three axis one time. "I've never run the damn thing, how am I supposed to train him?" "Ahh, you know the controller, you'll figure it out" That's what I was told!
As for the ASE, I mentioned I have two very good friends that are master techs and do know their stuff, again, pm me and I'll supply their information to validate me, but even they call me occasionally for help with a project. It happens, use your resources! I certainly call them often enough!
Had a 2010 Silverado, just kicked my butt all over for three months! Changed the plugs, customer didn't have the money for wires, chased a random misfire, I got fed up and bought plug wires on my dime to help him out. Still didn't fix it! Finally got the truck to sit still and I started pulling plugs. Only thing we can figure is the plug got dropped in shipping, but the entire electrode was gone? New plugs, why check, seriously, but it sure bit me!
Ive done a lot, I've learned a lot. I graduated hating computers and math, then walked right into a machine shop to deal with computers and math! I've had trigonometry beat into my head in short order! Figure out a circular bolt pattern on a Bridgeport without it!
Anyway, I'll gladly provide references to anything you care to question.

[sawinredneck]

I just don't see where the big problem is here with someone bragging on his son. Id bet you brag on your kids all the time. Unfortunately my only son is learning disabled. I'm very proud of how hard he trys in life and what he has to overcome. Bottom line is if he was a certified mechanic, a soldier, a carpenter, a machinist you would tire of hearing me brag on him. When the day comes on here that theres a rule against a guy coming here and bragging on his kids, and I don't care how blatantly he does it, will be the day I leave. IF he wants to brag and is proud of his son I sure am never going to criticize that. Bottom line is you and anyone else trying to tell him he shouldnt is bs. The only ones that will tell him he cant are the moderators. I'm sure if he got out of hand or off topic to far he would have gotten a pm. Sitting on a high horse proud of your kids???? they call that being a father!!
I'm sorry, and proud of you, on your son.
It wasn't about the son, it was about saying people without a certificate shouldn't do certain things because we supposedly aren't smart enough.
Im in the middle of setting up a *** (Point of sale, get your heads out of the gutter!) system for a bar, I haven't a clue what I'm doing! But with my wife's help, accounting major with an MBA, and some phone calls, I'm getting it sorted out.
What ever happened to that can do spirit? Do we all just have to lay down and die waiting for someone with the supposed knowledge to come rescue us? Sorry, I'm not that guy.

[sawinredneck]

Well, it sucks getting old! Seems Chris Crosby has retired from WATC, I knew I should have applied for that job! Either way, I'll still gladly provide names of previous employers via pm.

[sawinredneck]

Since I'm on a tirade anyways, my neighbor sure wasn't worried about a paper trail when I tore the head off his daughter-in-laws Neon, set it up on a Bridgeport mill, shaved .016"", yes, not a misprint, off the head and put it back together. Still running a year later. Guess I need to tell her to take it to a certified mechanic to fix it right?
Oh, I'm still waiting to hear what causes an Envoy's brakes to lock up after 100 miles. Two GM dealerships with "ask someone else certs" couldn't figure it out, but dumb ole me fixed it. Funny how that worked out.

[sawinredneck]

And to solve another issue before it comes up, look up "Swiss turn CNC lathes", yes, they do make them in 12 axis.
Edit, imagine, if you will, all the airplanes falling out of the sky because of parts I machined without certification! Oh the *****! Especially because I was pidgeon holed on a five axis mill cutting titanium, without certification! Wow, that's death from the skies just waiting to happen. I sure hope none of those planes fly over your houses!

[sawinredneck]

Double edit, I don't owe anyone here a thing! I scraped two $9k pieces of Titanium in one day, both due to out sourcing programming. One cut the nose clean off one part. The other the programmer was running HSS at 500rpm feeding at 14ipm, I did everything I could to edit the program, but I missed a feed rate in a circular interpretation and sucked a 50 taper tool holder out of a five axis Cincinnati mill. I had my tools packed and was ready to go.
Yeah, I've done it.

[Lloyd Smale]

his point was that because technology has come so far in your car and truck that for most of us taking shots in the dark at a problem ourselves ends up costing a lot more then just going to someone that does it for a living and letting them get it right the first time. That's the comical thing about fixing cars. Without training nobody thinks they can do what I did as a lineman, nobody thinks they can step up to a lathe and make a precision part without training. Nobody thinks they can do what an accountant does without training. Nobody thinks they can tear into a computer or tv set ect without electronics training. Not to many do home dentistry or perform operations on the kitchen table at home. But everyone with a set of tools from harbor freight thinks they can fix a car and think the mechanic down the street should be charging 20 bucks an hour like they did 20 years ago because its some second rate job. Well the days of the grease monkey at the local "fillin" station with the camel hanging out of his mouth are long over.

As to him bragging on his son theres 26 lines of you bragging on your self on the post just previous to this one. tell me how that's different????? Like I said theres now 7 pages of posts and some here haven't even offered a solution to the problem. All they've done is take a personal attack on one of the other posters because hes proud of his son!! That same poster by the way posted completely on topic. As to my son, don't be sorry. Hes a good young man and like I said I'm very proud of what he does with what God gave him. Hes a polite caring young man that could give lessons to some here on being a gentleman. He will never be a doctor or lawyer or even a machinist. But id bet my last dollar he will have a better chance of passing though those pearly gates then me or most here and that's a test we will all have to pass someday that's more important then any accomplishment here on earth.
I'm sorry, and proud of you, on your son.
It wasn't about the son, it was about saying people without a certificate shouldn't do certain things because we supposedly aren't smart enough.
Im in the middle of setting up a *** (Point of sale, get your heads out of the gutter!) system for a bar, I haven't a clue what I'm doing! But with my wife's help, accounting major with an MBA, and some phone calls, I'm getting it sorted out.
What ever happened to that can do spirit? Do we all just have to lay down and die waiting for someone with the supposed knowledge to come rescue us? Sorry, I'm not that guy.

[jcwit]

Good grief, now your judging as to who's going through the pearly Gates!

And once more, pride?, It's number one on the list of seven deadly sins.

[jcwit]

But everyone with a set of tools from harbor freight thinks they can fix a car and think the mechanic down the street should be charging 20 bucks an hour like they did 20 years ago because its some second rate job. Well the days of the grease monkey at the local "fillin" station with the camel hanging out of his mouth are long over.


Twenty bucks an hour, yup, long gone. My go to mechanic charges eighty bucks an hour, but then again is the job takes him 80 minutes he doesn't charge me for 2 hours of work either. Nor does he charge by the rate book, he does use the book to give an estimate but hecharges for actual time spent doing the work, and thats about as fair as one can get. He is ASA Certified BTW, there even has been a few times he has done work for free to me as well as others.

We also have a body shop that completely fixed all the rust and did a repaint on a widows car for free, just because it was the right thing to do.

Just a couple of perks of living in a small town!

I could name many more!

[Lloyd Smale]

sure wasn't saying there isn't any small town good mechanics. I live in a town of about 500 people and we have one mechanic shop that people from all over the county come too. Why? Because hes good enough to fix things right the first time and although hes not cheap his prices are fair and if he doesn't fix it the first time his labor for the second time is free. So yes theres some cracker jack local mechanics but id bet that if you look on the wall youll find they had formal training and have certificates to back it up like your mechanic. Like ive tried to explain. Cars have gotten to complicated for dad to pull one under the tree in the back yard, jerk the motor and rebuild it himself. Most times unless its a real simple thing your better off paying that good mechanic to fix it right the first time. that's what 6a6bga was trying to say. By the way you sure passed judgement on his opinion quickly. Maybe you should take a look in the mirror before you lecture me. By the way I find it hard to believe that God would pass judgment on you for being proud of your kid. Its self pride that he doesnt like. Its bragging and acting like a know it all. You like to twist words to make your point. I never said that you wouldn't go to heaven or get past the pearly gates. What I said was my son because of the stuggles he has in life will probably get through there a lot easier then you or I will. READ WHAT I SAID. I said that I believe he has a better chance then you OR ME. I know in my case I sin more in a week then he does in a month or probably a year. I'm sure though you can sit there long enough thinking and pick this post apart too. Ill even let you have the last word![smilie=b: .
Twenty bucks an hour, yup, long gone. My go to mechanic charges eighty bucks an hour, but then again is the job takes him 80 minutes he doesn't charge me for 2 hours of work either. Nor does he charge by the rate book, he does use the book to give an estimate but hecharges for actual time spent doing the work, and thats about as fair as one can get. He is ASA Certified BTW, there even has been a few times he has done work for free to me as well as others.

We also have a body shop that completely fixed all the rust and did a repaint on a widows car for free, just because it was the right thing to do.

Just a couple of perks of living in a small town!

I could name many more!

[Tenbender]

Lot's of blonds on this thread ?

[jcwit]

Neh, I'm thinking I'll just let it go.

In todays world I'd never have an engine rebuilt, thats why we have folks such as Jasper Engines.

Now I'm betting there will be those telling how bad the rebuilt engines are!

[Geezer in NH]

Yet all were to stupid to put gas in it. This thread should have been closed a while ago.

[6bg6ga]

I made a mistake in here by mentioning that my son has a ASE certification/certifications and mentioning his rating in the country. It was certainly not with the pretense of bragging but rather trying to state a fact towards credibility.

I will bow to the fact there are other mechanics out there capable of doing more than changing oil. One must also understand that with every good mechanic there unfortunately are a bunch of bad ones. I mistakenly mentioned that I have a few certifications which was unfortunately taken the wrong way. My meaning should have been to show that with enough desire one can go on and acquire what the general public assumes to be credibility. In todays world unfortunately a certificate means credibility and experience means nothing. Back in the early 70's one could simply show in certain instances one had experience and could master a particular field and one was given credit for experience.

Unfortunately this has gone astray and is now a pissing contest which does nothing and everyone who has posted is probably guilty including myself. It has gone to a look at me see what I did or can do by some and this means nothing as one can take all their experience and will still have to come up with a dollar to purchase a cup of coffee. The question of a simple brake problem with a GMC Envoy has been brought up in an attempt to establish credibility and it also serves no purpose. For the record.. I have a 2004 GMC Envoy that has plagued me with a number of assorted problems one of which was the brakes and while I can answer the question posed I will not do so simply because if I do this will continue to go on and on and serve no purpose.

I was wrong to mention that a certificate is necessary in order to do certain jobs and yet some jobs do require certifications so where do yo draw a line? You certainly need one to be line man but yet it doesn't require too much knowledge to put in an outlet or switch yet I have seen it done wrong so where do you draw the line?

All reputable repair shops do require certification yet not all that hold certifications are in fact capable. Yet, there are others quite capable yet lack the certification cannot obtain employment yet are qualified.

It was brought up about multiple axis machines being able to be run by someone without a certificate. Been there in the past and found that in order to obtain a pay scale at the top I had to obtain the said certification. Yet, I know despite my particular qualifications there are others out there that are just as capable but not holding that piece of paper.

I brought up the fact that in the 70's I also did refrigeration work on the side after being taught by a friend of mine how to do it. Did it on the side until it was legally necessary to obtain that certificate that magical piece of paper. Here is the down side for me on that. I don't have the time now to go to school for I believe its 4 years now to obtain that piece of paper. It however irritates me probably just as much as it does some here that are qualified but don't have that ASE certification/certifications.

I'm going to suggest that we all put this whole thread to bed now. We all bow out go our separate ways acknowledge that we have all posted offensive and possibly abrasive things and invade yet another weary thread and raise some hell there.

[blackthorn]

Sometimes it is not the content of a post but rather the manner in which it was delivered! In an arena such as the Net, perception is everything (almost).

[sawinredneck]

I'll also apologize for my part in this. I perceived it as an attack on my character and credibility, which I took personally. Maybe that was the intent, maybe it wasn't, either way I should have dropped it and moved on.