Powder coated alloy for 9mm?

[Drew P]

Getting closer to loading 9 and just curious what guys are using for alloy. I'd assume I don't need anything special as my soft cast coated bullets in 300bo fly fine on F/A with no problems.
Im using like 98/1/1 approximately. Maybe even more pure.

[blikseme300]

A common problem with reloading for 9mmP is that the brass can/will squeeze down the size of the CB when seated if not expanded properly. Standard expanders don't open up the brass enough for CB's. You may not get leading but accuracy will suffer if the projectiles are undersized when fired.

[Budzilla 19]

Ww with 2% SN will do it, in my opinion only! I powder coat them, and have no leading problems at all. My .02 cents.

[GRUMPA]

When I load for the 9mm I use the expander plug for the 38/357 and then flare with the 9mm expander.

[runfiverun]

I run an alloy a touch harder than ww's.
I use it for naked and for slick sided P/C boolits.
powder coat is not a jacket and the same fitment rules apply, you can get away with a bit softer alloy because of the coating but you can't go all crazy.

[41mag]

The softest I use with my 9's is a 1.5/1.5/97 air cooled they run around a 9-10 BHN normally.

I can use them either conventional lubed or PC'ed bit I can't push them too hard. I mainly just use these for plinking.

I have a touch harder alloy at around a 2/2/96 that I can run up to the upper end loads. I size all of them to .357".

[Drew P]

I run an alloy a touch harder than ww's.
I use it for naked and for slick sided P/C boolits.
powder coat is not a jacket and the same fitment rules apply, you can get away with a bit softer alloy because of the coating but you can't go all crazy.
That sounds reasonable. However i must say the PC has protected my 10" AR barrel well pushing 150gr boolits 1800fps and they must not be that hard as it's same alloy. I mean, with powder coating what will happen if the host is too soft? It's still got the barrier coat on it.

[Drew P]

I appreciate the recipes that include WW alloys but I'm kinda wondering how you can still have any WW because they just flat don't exist around here anymore. I got my first and only tire shop bucket score and it turns out it was about 10% or less useful material. Probably more like 5%. Definitely not worth it.

[runfiverun]

make a pseudo mix.
pure lead and lino or lead and super hard.

you can water drop or oven quench the alloy you have.
oven quenching would get you up near 14-15 bhn.

if you get things wrong you get leading same as non coated.

[Drew P]

make a pseudo mix.
pure lead and lino or lead and super hard.

you can water drop or oven quench the alloy you have.
oven quenching would get you up near 14-15 bhn.

if you get things wrong you get leading same as non coated.

i know I've read debates but doesn't the powder coating remove the tempering that the water drop gives? They need 400° or so to cook. I still do water drop all my boolits to prevent damage to them though.
One of my future machines will be an auto powder coating machine that water drops them again maybe.

[runfiverun]

not really since you quench the entire boolit. [from the mold or the oven]

20 minutes PC cook time isn't enough time to get to the center of the boolit and let the antimony matrix re-set itself.
you might slightly affect the immediate area under the PC [shrug] but it's not gonna mess up your hardness.
I dump mine from the oven into the same pot I water drop in anyway so it becomes a wash at that point.

[Drew P]

I dump mine from the oven into the same pot I water drop in anyway so it becomes a wash at that point.
Literally ;)

[fredj338]

I shoot mostly range scrap in all my service handgun loads. I do water quench after baking the PC. It seems to add about 5bhn vs air cooled. The 9mm & sometimes 40 seem to like a bit harder alloy than say 45acp.

[yondering]

not really since you quench the entire boolit. [from the mold or the oven]

20 minutes PC cook time isn't enough time to get to the center of the boolit and let the antimony matrix re-set itself.
you might slightly affect the immediate area under the PC [shrug] but it's not gonna mess up your hardness.
I dump mine from the oven into the same pot I water drop in anyway so it becomes a wash at that point.

Gotta disagree with you again on that one. The powder coating process absolutely will negate the effect of water dropping for hardness. Run a hardness test to compare, the evidence is plain. Someone even just recently posted their results showing this.

Drew P, if you want to quench for hardness, pour water on the bullets when they come out of the powder coating oven. 400* is plenty hot enough for heat treating.

Just a tip - pour water on the bullets, not bullets into the water. When they are hot, the coating is still soft, so if you dump the hot bullets in the water, the coating can get torn off in places where bullets stuck to each other or the tray.

I second the comments about using WW alloy equivalent or slightly harder for 9mm. You can go softer without leading, but it doesn't improve accuracy or consistency. Personally I use straight clip on WW alloy for everything from 170gr FN or 125gr HP subsonic loads to light 100gr +P+ fast loads up to ~1800 fps. I don't normally bother quenching any of my 9mm bullets; have tried it several times but never found a significant benefit unless trying to tailor a bullet for a specific impact velocity.

[Drew P]

Good to know. Yes quenching the freshly pc bullets will mean a change in my system. I usually let them cool in the broaster.
What temp must the lead get to for heat treating if it were done as yet another step after pc cures?

If I could pile them up and heat to 300° for instance I don't think the coating would mind.

[runfiverun]

yondering I know we have gone over this... :lol:
I thought initially it would be affecting the alloy also.
after going over this with Glen Fryxell more than once. he has convinced me to come around to his point of view on the matter.
he has the metallurgist degree, I got nuthin, so I defer to what he is telling me.

[runfiverun]

300 would make a change but you need to heat soak them for a full hour.
dropping straight from the mold would get you to 375-400 easy enough.

[Drew P]

300 would make a change but you need to heat soak them for a full hour.
dropping straight from the mold would get you to 375-400 easy enough.
Ya that's where I'm at water dropped, only problem is that's before applying the powder. Needs cooked at least 370° or so for 10 min.

[pakmc]

I've found that under the right conditions almost pure lead will work in 9mm bullets. I just got a Lee 6 holer 158/.358 bullet mold with a round nose and it is seriously accurate in my 357's/38's. but it seem to be quite accurate with my CZ champion, A CZ 75B, a Tanfolio, a star model 30 and a Bersa thunder 9. they come out of the mold at 161 gr.s and 2.8-3 gr's of clean shot(pretty new powder, very fast). this load will work the action of the above pistols. this is a tumble lube bullet. I've found that 9mm lead bullets need to be between about 750 to not over 900 FPS MV. mostly just fast enough to work the action of a semi auto pistol.(ok, it's really nice when the fired case drops at your feet or on the table that your shooting from.) I'm still working with this load and yes, with a 161gr. bullet theres not much room left for powder in a 9mm case. but this is not a compressed load.(ok, there's not any air space either). I shoot a "plate" rack and these will knock down the plates just fine(that's 3/4" -8" dia. plate at 10 yards)
I tried the Lee 124gr's mold and the mold works just fine(good bullets for a .38 special) but I can't make them work in a 9mm automatic (not accurate and will not work the action.) I also have two other molds that pour a 151/153 gr' bullets and they kinda work the action but there is a lot of key holing. I also have a round nose mold that's pretty accurate, but the sides of the bullet shear off and leave a ring of lead in the chamber and the second round will not chamber. (maybe I could resize it.) but it's only a two hold mold. what I'm seeing is the bullet needs to be heavy enough to work the action but has to stay about 8-900 FPS. "O" using Alox or Xlox white lube on lubing the bullets. "O" ,,note number 2. I miked all the barrels and all but one mike at .356, the Bersa thunder mikes at .355(I had my Starett rebuilt at the factory last year and I have gage blocks to check it.)

[NoAngel]

Guess I've just been lucky.
I don't have the problems others seem to have with 9mm
I cast from 50/50 air cooled and powder coat. Final size .357
Lee dies and Win or •FC• brass only. No issues at all.

Just recently finished another 3k 9mm's as well as some 40 & 45.

http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd371/Reloadingfool/IMG_1258_zpsu6gtnmjf.jpg

[Boolseye]

Guess I've just been lucky.
I don't have the problems others seem to have with 9mm

Luck's got nothing to do with it :kidding:

Seriously, you've got all the right boolits there. I like the colors.

[runfiverun]

it'd take me forever to sort all of those colors out.

[yondering]

yondering I know we have gone over this... :lol:
I thought initially it would be affecting the alloy also.
after going over this with Glen Fryxell more than once. he has convinced me to come around to his point of view on the matter.
he has the metallurgist degree, I got nuthin, so I defer to what he is telling me.

It's not a matter of thinking, or having a degree, although my degree included metallurgy too. Actual hardness tests tell the truth. I've tested mine; powder coating after water dropping negated the effects of water dropping, other people's tests show the same. Have you hardness tested your method?

[Drew P]

It's not a matter of thinking, or having a degree, although my degree included metallurgy too. Actual hardness tests tell the truth. I've tested mine; powder coating after water dropping negated the effects of water dropping, other people's tests show the same. Have you hardness tested your method?
I'm sure you two know oodles more about this than I but I'm also thinking if the surface temp gets to 400° that the centers would also achieve this temp simultaneously. Now, if that's enough to anneal them, then that's the question.
One problem I have powder coating is that the center of the platter takes longer to get to temp so I sometimes need to leave the thing in the over for longer so I feel like the center bullets are getting cooked properly. Not sure if this could be over-cooking the outer bullets. I need to refine my process.

[NoAngel]

it'd take me forever to sort all of those colors out.


Embrace the chaos of random colors.

Being red/green color blind kinda helps me in that aspect.

[yondering]

I'm sure you two know oodles more about this than I but I'm also thinking if the surface temp gets to 400° that the centers would also achieve this temp simultaneously. Now, if that's enough to anneal them, then that's the question.
One problem I have powder coating is that the center of the platter takes longer to get to temp so I sometimes need to leave the thing in the over for longer so I feel like the center bullets are getting cooked properly. Not sure if this could be over-cooking the outer bullets. I need to refine my process.

Yes, correct, once the outside of the bullet reaches temp, the inside is right there too or not far behind. Same thing happens when quenched; lead conducts heat fairly well like most metals, it's not like a ceramic insulator or something that can have widely different temps between surface and core. In my experience, 400* is enough to negate the effects of water dropping, so I don't water drop any more. It saves a step of drying bullets before coating.

You can't really "over cook" the powder coat if temp is correct, other than maybe real extreme time in the oven, so feel free to just cook them longer. You can leave them in for at least an hour or so without hurting the coating. I figure when the directions say 10 min at 400*, that means 10 minutes after it reaches 400*, so I add extra time for warm up. I use 20 minutes per batch, unless I forget and let them go longer.

Do make sure you're verifying temperature with a thermometer though; oven thermometers are only a couple bucks. I don't use it every time, but will occasionally put the thermometer in with the bullets to verify the temp is still stable at 400* at the designated setting. When guys show melted powder coated bullets, it's not from baking too long, it's from the oven temperature being too high; you can't just go by the dials on these little toaster ovens.

[Drew P]

Yes, correct, once the outside of the bullet reaches temp, the inside is right there too or not far behind. Same thing happens when quenched; lead conducts heat fairly well like most metals, it's not like a ceramic insulator or something that can have widely different temps between surface and core. In my experience, 400* is enough to negate the effects of water dropping, so I don't water drop any more. It saves a step of drying bullets before coating.

You can't really "over cook" the powder coat if temp is correct, other than maybe real extreme time in the oven, so feel free to just cook them longer. You can leave them in for at least an hour or so without hurting the coating. I figure when the directions say 10 min at 400*, that means 10 minutes after it reaches 400*, so I add extra time for warm up. I use 20 minutes per batch, unless I forget and let them go longer.

Do make sure you're verifying temperature with a thermometer though; oven thermometers are only a couple bucks. I don't use it every time, but will occasionally put the thermometer in with the bullets to verify the temp is still stable at 400* at the designated setting. When guys show melted powder coated bullets, it's not from baking too long, it's from the oven temperature being too high; you can't just go by the dials on these little toaster ovens.
yeah that's my observations too. I need to PID my broaster!