Worst cast bullet performance EVER!

[Elkins45]

This is a cry for help, and an anti-brag all rolled into one. I recently bought the Lee 9mm tumble lube TC in a six cavity. I have owned the RN version for years and have had OK but not fantastic success with it. I had read here that the TC version was a better performer so when I was buying some stuff I added one to my order.

I cast a bunch from 96-2-2 virgin alloy and lubed 2X (unsized) with BLL. They were loaded over 4 grains of Titegroup. I didn't measure them but they fit the flared case mouths tightly enough I'm pretty sure none of them are less than .357. Boy, did they ever make the powder name into a lie! Shooting from my very accurate CZ P-01 I let go a magazine full at 25 yards and only saw one hole on an 8.5x11 target. I ended up having to staple four sheets of notebook paper together, and even then it didn't end up catching every shot from a 14 round magazine!

Several of the holes indicated the bullets were tumbling in flight. There was no abnormal leading in the barrel after over 50 were fired.

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/elkins_pix/699F5A53-9F0D-4ADE-AE05-830C32EB0F91_zps8y35f07y.jpg

This one is interesting because the same gun shoots a conventionally lubed bullet of similar shape very well using the same powder and charge. Hmmm.... more experimentation is needed, including trying this load in a different gun to see if it's bad everywhere or if the gun/bullet combo is the problem.

Time to think like a scientist.

[sutherpride59]

The boolit is hitting sideways and key-hole'n, the solution is simple, stop shooting the gun sideways :D

But seriously you need to use a better method of measuring your boolit size than fits in the case. Buy a cheap micrometer on eBay or Amazon, even the $10 made in China ones are more accurate than calipers. I would slug the barrel and compare sizes to see if you boolits are smaller than the barrel. Also 4 grains of tightgroup in 9mm 120 grainers is a bit hot if I remeber right. I would drop the charge by .5 grains and try again.

[Shiloh]

Same here. The only 9mm mold that works for me is the 125 RN. it just barely makes .358. Ny other 9mm molds pattern at 50'.

Best success comes from the LEE 125 RF. Sized at .358. Work up loads CAREFULLY! It seats deeper into the case raising pressures.

SHiloh

[jcren]

Pull a loaded round and measure. The tl hands are thin and when cast from soft lead, easily sized down by the tapered 9mm brass. If it measures small after leading, get a larger expanding die.

[masscaster]

Make sure your firearm is unloaded. Take a boolit and set it on the muzzle to see if it even grabs the rifling.
This would be a good start.

Jeff

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

You may need a harder alloy or heat treat for 9mm with a Lee TL boolit.
I've shot some Lee TL boolits and read of others having problems, and I've come to the conclusion that Lee's TL boolits are more likely to NOT grab the rifling and mostly skid through the bore ...then when not spining properly, they aren't stable...and Keyhole.
that's my 2¢

[Elkins45]

The boolit is hitting sideways and key-hole'n, the solution is simple, stop shooting the gun sideways :D

But seriously you need to use a better method of measuring your boolit size than fits in the case. Buy a cheap micrometer on eBay or Amazon, even the $10 made in China ones are more accurate than calipers. I would slug the barrel and compare sizes to see if you boolits are smaller than the barrel. Also 4 grains of tightgroup in 9mm 120 grainers is a bit hot if I remeber right. I would drop the charge by .5 grains and try again.

I have a whole set of mics-- I just didn't use them. The whole idea of the TL bullet is to cast and go. I will measure and report, but I'm pretty sure they are fat enough.

[Elkins45]

You may need a harder alloy or heat treat for 9mm with a Lee TL boolit.
I've shot some Lee TL boolits and read of others having problems, and I've come to the conclusion that Lee's TL boolits are more likely to NOT grab the rifling and mostly skid through the bore ...then when not spining properly, they aren't stable...and Keyhole.
that's my 2¢

That is reasonable, but it doesn't explain why the RN version shoots reasonably well. I will water drop some as an experiment and give those a try.

[Maven]

If JonB's surmise is correct, could too much powder/velocity be a contributing factor? In my revolvers (S&W M 10 & Ruger SBH & BH), I've found groups open considerably when TLCB's are driven too fast.

[DougGuy]

If you're having to seat deeper to get loads to chamber, and the case thickness is swaging down the back half of the boolit, that could explain the tumbling. A lot of guys send me those TC dummies seated out where there is a good .080" ~ .100" of the shoulder out of the case and they plunk when they leave here so there's a thought too. I never hear much from them anymore until they need another barrel done so I am assuming they are having good results.

Also, might be time to try and recover some boolits just to get a glimpse at the rifling or... The lack of!

[bkbville]

Are you using the 124gr TL/TC?

I've shot the Lee 356-120-TC out of a couple of Glocks and Destroyer carbines (both a Largo and Luger) with decent results. Groove lubed, tumble lubed 45/45/10, and sized.

I agree though - sound like they're not imparting a spin if the group is that wide (The bullet equivalent of knuckle ball) Unless they are grouping someplace off paper and this one was the flyer ? :)

[runfiverun]

less powder, more diameter.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

If JonB's surmise is correct, could too much powder/velocity be a contributing factor? In my revolvers (S&W M 10 & Ruger SBH & BH), I've found groups open considerably when TLCB's are driven too fast.
I think I've tried 4 or 5 different Lee TL designs/calibers. The only one I had luck with, is a TL452-230 TC (an older 2 cav mold, before the new design) which actually weighs 240gr. and drops pretty fat (.4535 IIRC?). I load 'em plinkers in 45 colt, so they never get pushed hard. 9mm is a fairly hot round, that can't be downed too much, as it still needs to work the action. Also, Dougguy has a great point (as usual) about seating deep into that tapered case.

[Phlier]

less powder, more diameter.

I'm certainly no expert, but that's my thought as well.

Without knowing a couple of very important pieces of information, those being the COAL and boolit diameter, it's pretty hard to give accurate help, IMO.

I load the RN version of that boolit to 1.125-1.130 and it works flawlessly in my son's SP-01. IMO, Titegroup is too fast of a powder to load at shorter COAL in 9mm; pressures rise exponentially as you seat the boolit deeper. You might want to have someone that has access to Quickload run your load data, and get some pressure info vs. COAL.

As others have mentioned, 9mm brass is notorious for swaging down boolit diameter when the boolit is seated. IME, anything less than BHN 15 results in significant diameter reduction, especially if you're using a 9mm expander plug rather than, say, a 38 S&W or an NOE .356/.360 expander. With the soft alloy you are using, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see your boolits being swaged down to .355, which is too undersized to expect good results.

Pull one of your loaded rounds and measure the boolit diameter. You will most likely find that it'll measure .355.

So, some thoughts...

1. Harder alloy to prevent case swaging
2. A different expander to prevent case swaging
3. Measure your boolits as cast, and then after seating
4. Be very careful with Titegroup

[mdi]

I read your post #7. So far your "troubleshooting" without measuring bullets and slugging barrels is nuttin' but a WAG. I understand many casters don't size Lee T/L bullets, but that's mainly because they know what the diameter is of their cast bullets and are a close fit, and i don't think they were designed for pour-and-go. I don't shoot anything in my guns without knowing if they fit...
So far the fellers have come up with some very good answers to your question. Heed them...;)

[Tackleberry41]

Unsized so you really have no idea how big they cast. The 6 bullet Lees are supposed to be better than the 2 bullet ones. I have the 124gr RN TL mold, it produced garbage until it was leemented to cast proper sized bullets. Just wasnt much lead to grab the rifling. And a factory expanding die that comes w die sets is for .355 jacketed. A .357 will just swage down, and tumble. The factory expander w Lee dies only expands maybe 1/4 of the case. Anything below that gets swaged down.

I got garbage results w 9mm cast until I bought proper sizers and expanders. The NOE is much longer, you can adjust it to expand enough to fit whatever bullet your using. Now my 9mm shoot just as good as jacketed.

[Elkins45]

Using same cases, dies and alloy I use for the other TL bullets. Can't understand why it would swage this one more, except perhaps the TL lands are thinner or shorter on this mold. Like I said, all of the suggestions make sense, but the fact the other TL bullet doesn't act like this makes me wonder. Plus, if it were going down the bore very much undersized I would have expected to see some leading.

I know the groove diameter of this barrel: it's .357.

[bedbugbilly]

If I missed it, I apologize . . but did you do a normal "work up" on the load for this particular boolit?

Key holing is usually a sign of poor boolit to bore fit but I think it could possibly be a couple of things. Either the final loaded diameter of the boolit is smaller than .357 (i.e. getting swaged during loading) or else you're pushing them too fast.

I've never used a TL design in my 9mm as I usually use a 10ish grain RN (Lyman/Ideal 258=242). I do use a TL SWC in y 38s/357. Revolvers I've never had a problem with but in my 357, I did have trouble with the TL when I pushed the too fast.

Don't know exactly how to say it but IMHO, a TL doesn't have as much to grab the rifling as a conventional boolit with a lube groove. It just might be that with a combination of things - slight swaging, your particular pistol and the TL along with pushing them too fast adds up to poor accuracy and key-holing? Cut back on your load if you are loading near max and see if you pistol will cycle and if the tumbling stops - worth a try if you haven't already done it.

[tomme boy]

Normal for this mold. Only works if you powdercoat it

[427smith]

don't think I've ever cast from a new mold or a new alloy WITHOUT checking dia... cost of primer +powder + alloy + labor why not?

[TDB9901]

For what it is worth, a year ago I would have shrugged tome boy's powder coating comment off, and went on... I now believe he may have a point.
,
I was having accuracy problems with that boolit, and after long resistance to the idea, decided to give powder coating a try. Picked up some Harbor Freight red powder, coated them, and they shoot remarkably better. In .38 and 9mm. You wouldn't believe it was the same boolit.

I believe they may have been a bit under sized at around .357, but after coating they run around .359 and it has made a world of difference for me.

[tomme boy]

This design is Lee's worst mold they make. Look back through the history of this site and you will see all kinds of info on this TL design and the 9mm not working. But the regular lube grove one is one of the best molds Lee has. It is not really the diameter that is the problem. It is the lack of bearing surface. If you powder coat it it fills in the little groves and does not let the bullet skip or strip or whatever you want to call it.

[DougGuy]

This design is Lee's worst mold they make. Look back through the history of this site and you will see all kinds of info on this TL design and the 9mm not working. But the regular lube grove one is one of the best molds Lee has. It is not really the diameter that is the problem. It is the lack of bearing surface. If you powder coat it it fills in the little groves and does not let the bullet skip or strip or whatever you want to call it.

This makes total sense. Likely why the conventional lube groove version works well but the TL version don't.

[bigolsmokebomb]

You need to slug your barrel to see exactly what the diameter is. I can't shoot .356 in my my glock because the barrel slugs at .356. You need to be oversized by at least 2thou over barrel slug diameter. When I first started I sized to .356 and had keyholing just like that. went up to .358 and ill shoot 10rds in almost the same hole at 15yds

[Tackleberry41]

OP problem you will find with the Lee molds is inconsistency. You say one works fine the other doesn't. One may be casting properly, the other doesn't, but you don't know without sizing.

And the tumble lube mold just does not have a whole lot of bearing surface. It really only has that narrow front band and narrow rear one. Bearing surface makes big difference. I tried the 158gr .360 NOE mold I had bought. With the hollow point pins its 145gr. Most of the heavy 9mm, 147gr, have a beveled base as a square base tends to flare the case seated that deep. So I left off the gas check, the idea it would give it a bit of a bevel and not flare the case. They keyholed. Just wasn't enough bearing surface to grip the rifling. It works fine with the gas check, giving it that extra bit to grab with.

The 4 TL molds I have, 124gr 9mm, 158gr 357, and 2 45. Out of the box, none of them sized where they had much more than a ribbon of bearing surface. The 9mm was all over the place. After leementing them, they size with a good solid front and rear band. Powder coated they work great. But the PC does fill in the gaps giving more bearing surface.

[RMII]

I too have had this very same issue to the point of giving up on cast for my 9's. This includes the Lee 124 TC the OP refers to and a few others. I'll give the .38 expander trick a try and see what happens.

In addition, I'll try the other suggestions such as plugging the barrel, pulling some loads and checking for swagging.

I'll report back when I can get this done.

[wbrco]

I was going to post about my experience in leementing the tl rn version. My calipers tell me I've got .359 across the mold, but the crease is still down around .355 I think I need to add some more tape on the opposite side of the mold.

[MT Chambers]

I believe that your bullets are too small, I hope you are not using a "factory crimp die", either way I'd get a diff. mold that casts all bullets the same size. The FCD can size bullets down a lot when they are already in the case.

[Elkins45]

Bullets are mostly .3585, one cavity is .3575 and one is .360. Lee...sigh.

The bore of this particular gun is .357

[Phlier]

Bullets are mostly .3585, one cavity is .3575 and one is .360. Lee...sigh.

The bore of this particular gun is .357

Run 'em through a Lee push through .358 sizing die, tumble lube them, and enjoy.

[Nocturnal Stumblebutt]

That is reasonable, but it doesn't explain why the RN version shoots reasonably well. I will water drop some as an experiment and give those a try.

If everything else is the same it is likely that the RN mold drops larger boolits than the TC mold, and as such is sized down less by the case and grips the rifling better

[bouncer50]

This design is Lee's worst mold they make. Look back through the history of this site and you will see all kinds of info on this TL design and the 9mm not working. But the regular lube grove one is one of the best molds Lee has. It is not really the diameter that is the problem. It is the lack of bearing surface. If you powder coat it it fills in the little groves and does not let the bullet skip or strip or whatever you want to call it. I agree with you. I am old school on bullet molds. If only 50 percent say that TL mold design are bad. With my luck i would be the one of the 50 percent. I will stick with the old proven design that more say their good. The old Lyman 356402 been around at least 50 years is a proven design. I also use the older design Lee 125 and had good luck. If someone can say that TL bullets are better i will like them to tell me why.

[Elkins45]

This is the first TL bullet I've tried that has been truly terrible. I've shot a lead mine of the 45-200TL over the years, and I've even had good luck with the 240 TL in 44 magnum as long as I cast them hard.


If someone can say that TL bullets are better i will like them to tell me why.

Because when they work they are much less effort than conventional bullets. There has to be a reason Ranch Dog used them in his designs.

[Texas by God]

I tried those in a Ruger P89 and got horrible accuracy and SLIVERS of lead in the barrel. I've used TL moulds in .314",410"&.429 with great sucess. For the price of Czech and Serbian and Blazer 9mm ammo I see no need to cast for it- sorry. Best, Thomas.

[GooseGestapo]

A lot of good info here on the Lee TL molds.

I found also many years ago that adding tin to my w/w metal really helped accuracy with the TL molds in 9 and 10mm. It's primarily the thin base driving band that causes the problem. Notice how well a properly sized and gaschecked RanchDog style molds shoot through many rifles at better than 2,000fps.

I now powder coat all my 9mm bullets and size to .357" as I mostly shoot S&W's and a Taurus. The Taurus actually prefers a .358", but shoots almost as well at .357". The S&W's may fail to chamber with some rounds with .358" bullets. The 105gr SWC is a standout, and saves $$$ lead vs. a heavier boolit.

fwiw; I have a RD .338" 200RF 6-cav mold. It shoots HORRIBLY from my 2 .338 ME, and poorly from a MkX Mauser w/custom .338/06 bbl. (mold casts undersized) Powder Coat and gc'd, sized to .339" shoots accurately up to ~1,800fps. 1,950fps = keyholes!!! Lee .338" 220gr RN sized .339" is accurate to 2,100+.

[Elkins45]

Learned two new things at the range today: (1) Switching guns doesn't help and (2) Dropping the powder charge significantly didn't help either.

Next experiment: same alloy, water dropped.

[C. Latch]

Same here. The only 9mm mold that works for me is the 125 RN. it just barely makes .358. Ny other 9mm molds pattern at 50'.

Best success comes from the LEE 125 RF. Sized at .358. Work up loads CAREFULLY! It seats deeper into the case raising pressures.

SHiloh


Quoted to emphasize the part in bold. That's the only 9mm mold I own. Only one I need.

[tomme boy]

Just because you water drop them it might not help until they age for awhile. I don't shoot mine for months even years after they were cast. Your best bet is to find some lino or mono or powdercoat. Or just get another mold.

Have you tried to use a 38 S&W expander? It takes the tapor out of the case and the bullet seats very easy. This may be your biggest help. That was why everyone has asked about pulling a bullet and checking the diameter. This is what it took for my CZ to start shooting outstanding.

The other thing you need to try is to not size them at all. Lube them and let them dry. Then lube them again after a couple days.

[Elkins45]

It's the same expender that works with the other TL bullet, so unless this bullet just has weaker grooves it's not the problem. I'm willing to change it but I prefer to try other stuff before I turn a custom expander just for this bullet.

I didn't size them. I generally avoid sizing TL bullets unless I have to, and I'm not sure making them smaller would help anything.

[44man]

I have to go with fit and skid also. The boolit should shoot. It is why I caught and examined a few thousand boolits. It is OK for a little skid at the front of the boolit but it MUST stop at the base band. PB with high pressures must be HARD!
I shoot many TL boolits at max, only thing I do different is to use a good lube like Felix and cast hard. I do not fear a TL design.
I once was shooting the RCBS Keith style from my .44 SBH with 231 and Unique for can shooting fun, real sad so I experimented with alloys from soft, working up in BHN. I seen improvement every step and when I got to 28-30 BHN, it fell into place with amazing 50 yard groups. Recovered soft boolits were slumped into a blob not anything like I cast.
It is the old saying, definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over expecting things to change.
Small cases like the nine are tough and if you get into the taper with the base, it will size the boolit and once the base is smaller you will not seal or take rifling.
Forget leading in all it's forms, it is no indication of accuracy at all unless it gets thicker. Then it is like skid, no grooves left.

[Larry Gibson]

Could you post a picture or two of your as cast bullets?

Larry Gibson

[Harter66]

The trouble I had with the 356-124 TL/TC in my 9mm Hungary HP9 !
75% ignorance , 15% copper fouling, 10% everything else right .

All I had to work with was WW and Alox . I'd cast a few wait a week, load wait another week ,shoot . Spend hours getting the lead out . Repeat with some little tweek . They flew straight but 8" was as tight as they got . Red Dot was not a good answer , Unique was much better . Then I water dropped the straight WW . It was better , a lot better . I was working at a place that had an ultrasonic cleaner full of Hoppes for aircraft fuel injector cleaning you can't believe the ease and the amount of stuff in a bbl ....... 3 trips through 30 min cycles and another hour with copper remover and I had a clean bbl . The lead would lift in layers and brush out clean up and look good but the copper would be on top . I'd strip that or at least scar it and lift another layer in the ultrasonic cleaner . I didn't get all of the copper out but I can live with what's there now. I have 6-700 cases some with the headstamp nearly gone . It's all Winchester brass , CCI small standard pistol primers , 3.9 Unique 4.0 if you aren't a rigid shooter or doing weak hand drills and water dropped WW . The sticky Lee Alox was dropped and a slightly firmer slicker Darrs lube applied by hand also . Now I get action fouling before bbl issues .

Following a much reduced version of the above for the 401-175 TL/SWC in a 40 S&W I had tumbling like you show with full profile holes although without leading and working from start to max loads with WD50/50 and ACWW did nothing to change it . WCWW stopped it and at the max load of Unique the 25 yd group was still closing to a very comfortable 4" Weaver stance fired group .

In short these designs in the high pressure ACP class cartridges need to be at least WCWW in my experience with them .

In a vain effort to reduce my stable and run 4,5&6C moulds for pistols I replaced that mould with the 358-125 RNFP standard groove for 9s and 38s and so far it seems happy with ACWW in all platforms and cases .
It worked sort of ..... Just 5 moulds for 35 cal 95,125,158,200 and 228 take me from 380-358 Win for about anything that I can think of being a realistic possiblity .

[tomme boy]

So what expander are you using? If it is the 9mm one that can be the reason. The Lee 38 S&W expander will straighten out the taper a little and expand the case farther down into the case. It is almost double the length it goes into the case to straighten it.

[fredj338]

TL bullet & TG, I think that is your accuracy issue. Seriously though, I have seen so many poor accuracy reports from the TL designs, I would never even consider it. YOu can tl a conventional groove design or lube & size, I like options. FWIW, I have never had accuracy issues in 9mm as long as I am shooting 0.3565"-0.357" in dia. Regardless of alloy or gun. Never needed to go to 0.358" in anything, even the slightly oversize Glock factory bbl.

[Elkins45]

Could you post a picture or two of your as cast bullets?

Larry Gibson

When I make some more I will.