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Sasquatch-1
02-20-2017, 12:41 PM
What is your preferred way to harden a frizzen face?

waksupi
02-20-2017, 12:57 PM
I use Kasenit, but I don't think you can buy it anymore.

rancher1913
02-20-2017, 02:16 PM
amazon has it.

gnoahhh
02-20-2017, 05:59 PM
I use Kasenit too. I have two cans- one just a few years old, the other one around 50 years old and came out of my grandfather's shop. The old can is the good stuff with cyanide in it. I save it for really special projects.

The key to long life with Kasenit is to keep it tightly sealed.

M-Tecs
02-20-2017, 06:05 PM
amazon has it.

Amazon has Cherry Red. I would love to be able to find real Kasenit.

Sasquatch-1
02-21-2017, 06:32 AM
Has anyone used the leather wrap method and how well does it work?

RU shooter
02-21-2017, 08:23 AM
Not case hardening but there's the option of soldering in a thin piece of good high carbon steel to the face like a thin file and smoothing it out . There was a post a few months ago on here I believe a member did that .

crappie-hunter
02-21-2017, 05:40 PM
What color is that good stuff that came from your grandfathers shop? I have some that was my dad's that is white in color. The original can was no longer usable so I put it in a sealable plastic container,wish I had the instructions that were on the original can. This stuff is old anyone have the instructions for use. I have used it for hardening frizzens and it seems to work, but not sure I did it properly.

M-Tecs
02-21-2017, 06:30 PM
http://www.gun-tests.com/special_reports/accessories/Case-Hardening-Kasenit-american-gunsmith-Annealing-steel-11750-1.html#.WKy_E4WcGUk

M-Tecs
02-21-2017, 06:30 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTIXGl_3li8

grullaguy
02-21-2017, 09:40 PM
I have a friend who uses the leather method. He started when he could not get Kasenite or Cherry Red anymore. He swears by the leather method now.

webfoot10
02-25-2017, 09:17 PM
I use powdered food grade bone meal. Works like kasenite. Heat frizzen to red heat and bury in bone
meal till it quits smoking. Bring to a red heat again, then quench. You might have to do a second
time if not hard enough.
webfoot10

sharps4590
02-26-2017, 08:15 AM
Back when I started shooting muzzleloaders, some 40+ years ago, some of the "old guys" at that time would line the frizzen faces of their rifles with a feeler gauge. I remember they got a huge shower of sparks.

The old Dixie Gun Works catalogues used to have a piece about hardening a frizzen by putting it in a tin can and smashing the end closed then throwing it in a fire for a while, fish it out and quench the whole thing. I think I'm remembering that correctly. Maybe similar to leather wrapping the frizzen?

rfd
02-26-2017, 08:25 AM
using cherry red ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xh8nI14BDI&t=6s

rfd
02-26-2017, 09:33 AM
fwiw, MBS has cherry red for $10 (about half to a third the price of other online vendors).

http://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com/mbs3cart/html/images/cartpics/CHERRYRED.jpg

http://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com/mbs3cart/agora.cgi?cart_id=9849109.5793&p_id=CHERRYRED&xm=on

dagger dog
02-26-2017, 09:39 AM
using cherry red ...


Thanks for the link.

M-Tecs
02-26-2017, 02:30 PM
fwiw, MBS has cherry red for $10 (about half to a third the price of other online vendors).

http://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com/mbs3cart/html/images/cartpics/CHERRYRED.jpg

http://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com/mbs3cart/agora.cgi?cart_id=9849109.5793&p_id=CHERRYRED&xm=on

Will be ordering some on Monday. Thanks

gnoahhh
02-27-2017, 02:13 AM
What color is that good stuff that came from your grandfathers shop? I have some that was my dad's that is white in color. The original can was no longer usable so I put it in a sealable plastic container,wish I had the instructions that were on the original can. This stuff is old anyone have the instructions for use. I have used it for hardening frizzens and it seems to work, but not sure I did it properly.

Grey. If it turned white that means it's oxidized. At least that's what an old welder told me.

Teddy (punchie)
02-27-2017, 03:22 AM
Not sure but I think any carbon added at a I call it cherry color or hotter will get into metal. I think old black smiths used straw??

JHeath
02-27-2017, 09:36 PM
Guys half-sole frizzens by annealing a thin saw blade; cutting/shaping a piece to fit the frizzen; heating and quenching the new piece; soldering it to the frizzen. The idea is that the new half-sole gets drawn down by the soldering so is not excessively hard. I think 44mag described this in a thread months or a year ago.

JWFilips
02-27-2017, 09:50 PM
I put the frizzen in a Tomato sauce can filled with charcoal and veg tan leather, Crimp the can closed
Put it in a bonfire for 30 minutes Can should be red hot
Then break the can open over a 5 gal bucket of water!
Did 60 or so that way!

JHeath
02-28-2017, 12:25 AM
Here's the thread: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?13904-Hardening-a-frizzen

sharps4590
02-28-2017, 10:10 AM
JW, that sounds like what I remember. It's been so long ago the details are sketchy and I no longer have that old Dixie catalogue to check.

oldred
02-28-2017, 11:21 AM
I used Kasenit for years rebuilding machinery parts but switched to Cherryred when Kasenit disappeared and the Cherryred works just as well, however these compounds are good for only light duty where depth of hardness is not much concern. The one thing not mentioned so far is that while Kasenit and Cherryred do indeed impart a very hard surface it's not at all very deep and the hardness is just a VERY thin layer, unlike true carbon pack casing which goes a lot deeper and lasts much longer. Carbon packing is by far the best method and will yield the deepest longest lasting results but is of course a bit more involved than compound hardening methods such as Cherryred. The best way is to use a heat treat oven if one is available but fortunately there are simple alternatives to elaborate methods using expensive equipment. The can trick works ok but 1/2 hour is not enough time and while it will harden the surface it's very likely the depth of hardness will be very thin, at least an hour is needed to get good depth of penetration for the carbon. Also a MUCH better crucible vs a can to pack the parts in would be a short piece of black iron pipe with a cap screwed on one end and a simple piece of metal plate laid on top, pack at least 1/2 inch of charcoal (crushed Bar-B-Q briquets work great but don't use the self lighting kind) and heat in a hot fire until red hot for at least an hour before quenching in COLD water. Doing this will make for a very hard and long lasting case vs using the compounds and a torch, the compounds/torch method does work and is quick&easy but it's just not very deep. The leather method also works to some degree but it too lacks depth and any real durability, the problem there is again not enough time (usually) and the fact the leather does nothing until it's burned down to it's carbon base and becomes charcoal, at that point it does work but no better than just packing with charcoal to begin with which is much simpler and usually better due to more being available by the time the leather is burned down into a usable form.

The bottom line is that true carbon packing, as has been done just about forever, is simple, easy and cheap with all that's needed being just a capped piece of pipe, some crushed charcoal and a good hot fire to place it in plus a bucket of COLD water for the quench. I have done hundreds of parts this way over the years ranging from tiny pins to a few pieces weighing several pounds and it works every time! While some of the other methods work ok they almost all lack any real depth with some yielding little more than an illusion of hardness more than a real case that will last, sure a file will skip over it when tested but take a .001 or so off and then test it again! The real carbon pack method with at least 1/2" of charcoal packing covering the part all around and an hour or so to soak in the heat after achieving the red hot stage is easy to do using that pipe and it will give very good and long lasting results.

John Allen
02-28-2017, 11:31 AM
The best thing about this forum is learning all the little tips and tricks. More things to file away in the brain box.

dondiego
02-28-2017, 12:51 PM
If you heat it in a closed pipe, do you need an air vent to prevent danger of an explosion?

oldred
02-28-2017, 01:50 PM
If you heat it in a closed pipe, do you need an air vent to prevent danger of an explosion?

Of course you don't securely seal both ends by screwing caps on them for several reasons so maybe I should have been a bit clearer on that point. Screw a cap on the bottom end but seal the other end loosely with a steel plate or better yet a steel "plug" such as a small block of metal or some such. What you want is something that is large enough to completely cover the open end and heavy enough to stay put while heating but something that can simply be dumped or knocked off as you dump the contents into the quench, there are a great many ways of doing this depending on what a person has or can easily get. As long as it stays put while heating, seals the opening fairly well (it does not have to be sealed off 100% airtight but needs to be a good snug fit since you don't want Oxygen to get inside) then many things could be used. I have one crucible I made from a short piece of 2" pipe that has a cap screwed on one end and another cap turned upside down on the other end, I ground the bottom cap flat so it was easier to stand the pipe upright and I had to grind off some flashing and cast in ribs from the top upside down cap so that it fits snugly into the pipe making a good seal. When I remove this crucible from the oven or forge, whichever I am using at the time, I simply flip it bottom up over the quench tank and the top cap falls into the tank along with the contents.

BTW, when dumping into the quench it can get VERY exciting in a hurry so be ABSOLUTELY SURE to wear gloves, protecting clothing and safety glasses or googles! Doing this is not particularly dangerous but it can and does create some smoke, sparks and will splatter some rather messy and somewhat hot water so just be ready for that. Again this is not really all that dangerous but it's not 100% harmless either if you don't expect it, personally I have a lot of fun doing that and actually enjoy the quenching part of the process.

mooman76
02-28-2017, 01:59 PM
Wouldn't it be better todump into oil?

oldred
02-28-2017, 02:50 PM
Wouldn't it be better todump into oil?

No not at all for this process and I think you may be confusing the hardening and tempering of alloy or tool steels with case hardening of low carbon steels, oil quench is for certain alloy and tool steels that through harden rather than just form a thin hard skin, or case, around the softer ductile core. These through hardening alloys and tool steels need to be quenched at a more reduced and controlled rate and will tend to crack or even fracture if quenched in cold water but softer low carbon steels with additional carbon infused in the surface from the carbon packing require a rapid reduction in temperature to achieve the desired surface hardness while still maintaining the soft ductile inner core.


There are two distinctive types of quench hardening, case hardening of low carbon or mild steels and through hardening of alloy or tool steels. Mild or low carbon steel is largely unaffected by heating and quenching thus if you heat a piece of low carbon steel to cherry red and then quench it in cold water almost nothing changes and it will remain just as soft as it was before heating and quenching. The addition of extra carbon into the surface of these low carbon steels by packing them and then heating them to a high temperature in this carbon rich environment until the extra carbon is absorbed into the surface will then cause that carbon rich surface to harden when quenched. Since the carbon only infuses a few thousandths deep into the surface only that outside surface becomes hard and relatively brittle forming a hard "case" around the part which remains soft and ductile inside thus retaining it's strength and crack resistance despite the hard and brittle outer skin. Once removed from the quench tank the part is finished and the process is complete, since the inner core has retained it's strength and ductility no further heat treating is needed. Chemical compound hardening of these low carbon steels is very similar with products such as Cherryred but certain chemicals are absorbed into the surface rather than just plain carbon. These chemicals accomplish much the same purpose as carbon but are absorbed much faster thus the soak time in the heat is greatly reduced and the part can simply be coated with the product and heated with a torch, a couple of these coat and heat cycles done over a few minutes will result in a very hard surface but as mentioned earlier it will not be as deep as will occur with true carbon packing.

Then there are the through hardening alloy or tool steels which get a bit more complicated and involved to properly harden. With these steels additional carbon or chemicals are not induced into the metal since they will harden as they are due to their carbon and/or alloy content. The big difference is that they will harden and thus become brittle all the way through and will be weakened and crack prone if not followed by a tempering process after quenching, these steels are almost never used in the as quenched condition since they will be severely weakened and crack prone due to the brittleness and internal induced stresses. The hardening process is very different than with case hardening and temperatures along with the quench medium is somewhat more critical than case hardening of mild steels, water is usually not used except with the water hardening tool steels, other tool steels use various oils or even are simply air quenched for hardening. But whatever quench and temperatures are required the quenching must be followed by "drawing" or tempering which is done by reheating to a lower temperature and held for a specified time (the proper temperature and time can vary and will be determined by the particular alloy) which will reduce the hardness somewhat but at the same time will remove the induced internal stress and also return the metal to a stronger more ductile and thus less brittle state. This tempering step is not required for case hardening of low carbon mild steels.

mooman76
02-28-2017, 04:03 PM
Thanks, good info. I have heard of this being done before but with other items. I may have to make a couple spring in the future so I am trying to learn what I can.