Check this out

[1trkmind]

Hey guys, did my first berdan to boxer transformation. All went fairly well, I thought.187976

Shot 3 times and this happened.187978

Is this case head separation?

[dbosman]

It's in the right area for case head separation. Just above the web.
Have you been full length sizing the case each time? I'm betting yes.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Is that a .303 British case? They're notorious for case head separation at that location when fired in many of the SMLE rifles that haven't had their headspace corrected. And, three is just about the average number of shots you'll get before it happens. Partial cure, without correcting the headspace, is to neck size only between shots and reuse in same rifle.

[1trkmind]

I thought it was strange, I tried to neck size but it was sizing the case before half the neck got sized.I noticed a wrinkle on the second shot. How would I go about correcting the head space if its bad? I have shot it alot with no problems except when trying to paper patch. It's an old rifle (1908) I don't want to change it much.

[Norbrat]

Lee Collet die to neck size.

http://www.titanreloading.com/rifle-reloading-dies/lee-collet-2-die-set/303-british-collet-dies-

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Is it a Lee Enfield? With a 1908 date it would likely be a No.I Mk. III. It should be marked on the butt socket beneath the bolt handle. If this is so you can correct the headspace by rebarreling or finding a slightly larger bolt/bolt head combination. But, bearing in mind that you don't want to change it very much, a better solution would be to order a "neck sizing only" die. Not that expensive, and if you use it I think it will solve your problem.

[Soundguy]

I thought it was strange, I tried to neck size but it was sizing the case before half the neck got sized.I noticed a wrinkle on the second shot. How would I go about correcting the head space if its bad? I have shot it alot with no problems except when trying to paper patch. It's an old rifle (1908) I don't want to change it much.

What die set were you using? many you can just adjust the expander stem and find a sweet spot to neck size only

[1trkmind]

I was using a RCBS FL sizing die it has a .310 expander, but I have an 8mm I may turn down to about .313. Trying to get about 3/4 of the neck sized before it hits the shoulder. Does pretty good most times, just had a problem with that military brass that I changed primers in. Also it is a No. I Mk. III, and eventually I will probably get a neck sizer. Any idea which brand would be better?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Not really (an idea..), I can't think of any bad ones. Lee is usually the least expensive, and they work as well as any. I think that you'll find a properly adjusted neck sizing die to be easier to use and to give better results than guessing at each case run into a full length sizer.

[1trkmind]

Are those neck sizing dies adjustable as to how small they
squeeze down the neck?

[Soundguy]

Not really (an idea..), I can't think of any bad ones. Lee is usually the least expensive, and they work as well as any. I think that you'll find a properly adjusted neck sizing die to be easier to use and to give better results than guessing at each case run into a full length sizer.

Don't guess. find out where you need it adjusted, and then lock it down so you can full stroke the press.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Are those neck sizing dies adjustable as to how small they
squeeze down the neck?

No, they are manufactured to squeeze the neck down to the factory specs. Then, depending on if you're loading with cast or jacketed bullets, you'll need to expand the neck to one extent or another and then run it through the seating die. Sounds like two things working at cross purposes, doesn't it; but that's how it works in most cases--the seating die will finish the job except for a crimp should you desire one. If, for some reason, you should need a neck sizing die that would size smaller than the way they are normally made you could order a custom die, but that's always an expensive proposition.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

A bit more for clarification and discussion. Usually, most seating dies can be adjusted to crimp in addition to their seating function. It generally involves just turning the die in another 3/4 turn or so, and you'll produce a roll crimp. Lots of guys now days are using the Lee Factory Crimp die as a separate and final step in the reloading process. I use them and like them. For bench rest shooting you may find that you don't really need a crimp, but for surviving repeated recoils while waiting in the magazine to be loaded into the chamber, and the actual push into the chamber a crimp is advisable.

I just thought I'd go over that, because someone else was sure to point it out--but the main thrust of the conversation is the neck sizing. It is true, as others are saying, that regular dies can be adjusted to neck size, and that's o.k. if you want to fool around with it. Personally, if I find the need to neck size only, then I always acquire a separate die for that operation and leave my regular full length sizing die adjusted to do that function--but different strokes for different folks. I might be loading for this .303 today and that one tomorrow. If this one requires neck sizing only and that one uses full length sized rounds, then I want the ones I load tomorrow or next week to be exactly the same and won't quite achieve that by the continuous adjusting and readjusting of dies.

I just wanted to run over the neck-sizing-only thing one more time to be certain that you're up to speed on it. When you fire a round in a chamber that is oversized, or which is out of specs. on headspace, the brass stretches to fill and fit the chamber, and largely remains in that fired size and shape without returning to the original factory specs. So by neck sizing only, only the neck is being "worked" and not the body. The case is now customized to fit that particular chamber and will not need to stretch very much the next time it is fired. But, you may find that if you have another rifle in that same caliber, such as a second Lee Enfield, the neck sized and reloaded cartridge may not fit into this second rifle. Further, repeated firings of the neck sized cartridge in it's own rifle will become a bit more difficult as time passes, it may fit too snugly and make chambering and extraction difficult, and eventually you may have to full length resize it again to get it to work. In theory you could then start over again for several shots just neck sizing again, but with the .303 in the Lee Enfield it is unlikely that the brass will last that long anyway. I've been shooting these for a great many years and, as said in an earlier post, full length resizing will usually get you an average life of about 3 shots, and neck sizing has usually gotten me (my experience!) about 7 shots average.

Very often the terminal problem for a case that has been neck sized only for several shots will be a cracked/split neck. This can be prevented by annealing the necks, but usually not long after annealing the necks the case will give out in the area shown in your original photos. Why? Because the case was stretched at that location on the first firing and was weakened. Neck sizing will prolong the case life, but the damage has been done and at some point the case can be expected to fail.

This pretty much all pertains to shooting jacketed bullets at standard loadings. You will probably experience a longer case life by shooting low powered cast loads and neck sizing only, and annealing will make sense in that situation, but I'm hedging that statement with "probably" because there is such a variation in chambers and headspace situations that I can't make a hard and fast statement about it. There is also the unknown quality of the various military surplus brass that comes and goes from the market place, versus civilian made brass like R-P. So you are entering an area of many variables, but the immediate answer to your problem is neck sizing only.

[1trkmind]

Thank you very much Der, I ran about 25 through a lee loader and I could tell a big difference in the amount of brass working. Neck sizing will be the way I go. My brass is Winchester and I mostly shoot very low power shots, they should last a while. The one in the picture is the only problem I've had,and it was a military one that I had converted from bredan to boxer primer. Very old!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

You're welcome. I'm sure that you're going to have a great shooting experience. Lee Enfields are fun rifles to shoot. :D

[EDG]

.303 British Case Separations - Causes and Cures


The combination of British Lee-Enfield rifles, odd chambers and thin brass have made this round my all time worst destroyer of brass - caused by partial & complete head separations.



Background
Lee-Enfield rifles

1.The Lee-Enfield action is a bit elastic and that can add to the damage that causes the separations. I have calculated the momentary stretch with full power loads on the #4 Mk1 at
.007 inch.
2. In addition some Lee-Enfields can have a good bit of head space that can add to case stretching if you persist with FL sizing.
3. The chambers are both extra large in diameter and extra long to the shoulder as compared to most ammo. Brass when fired has to stretch to fit the chamber to the shoulder and it has to expand diametrally to fit the chamber diameter. The poor diametral fit causes a lot of stretching at the solid head junction with the case wall. You can identify this stretch by the prominent pressure ring step in the case where the solid head joins the case wall.
4. The Lee-Enfield chambers usually measure .460 at the big end of the chamber. US brass typically measures .450 to .452 at the solid head just ahead of the rim. That is too much expansion coupled with the other things that add to the damage. Acceptable expansion of the case would be more like .004 or less at the case head pressure ring step.


Common Brass faults
5. US made brass is light weight in the case wall thickness and US made brass, especially Remington, is way shorter than the chambers at the shoulder location.
6. The over length .303 chambers did what the Brits needed but they stink for people trying to make expensive brass last. If you examine both CIP and SAAMI drawings for the cartridges and the chambers you will find they are very much like any other cartridge design where the cartridge actually looks like the chamber.
However the British chambers have been impossible to document. It seems the Brits do not really have fully dimensioned and toleranced drawings for both the ammo and the chambers. If you collect enough once fired .303 brass you will eventually see a wide range of chambers including some that qualify as clown chambers.


How to deal with all of the above?

Start out with the best brass for the job and right now that is PPU. The head of PPU brass is larger in diameter at .454 to .455 and that will reduce the radial stretching. The PPU brass has a longer shoulder location which helps reduce stretching. It is also thicker in the case walls which helps resist stretching.

You can try the following to see how much they help case life. One through four will only be needed for the 1st fire forming shot.
1. Use small O rings or rubber bands around the case head to take up any head space by forcing the case against the bolt face.
2. Expand the neck on new brass to about .35 ore .375 cal. and neck back down to give a new shoulder with positive contact when the bolt is closed. This prevents so much of the shoulder from having to blow forward on the first shot.
3. Wrap the case head with a .150 wide strip of .003 to .004 thick tape just ahead of the rim. Use enough tape (probably 1 full wrap) to center the case head in the chamber so the step at the solid head is spread around the full diameter and is not concentrated on one side by the extractor.
4. If you are an advanced and motivated hand loader you can try using your FL die to hydroform the case body so the shoulder expands radially rather than stretching longitudinally. This is one of my next projects.
5. For those that are familiar with a lot of fire forming, smooth chambers help. If you know how to polish a chamber without damaging it a light polish does no harm.
6. You can apply a very light film of oil to help the case form without sticking to the chamber. This prevent the case from grabbing the chamber and stretching at the first shot.




Once you have fired your brass the best you can do for it next is to keep it clean and neck size it with a dedicated NECK die such as the Lee Collet neck die or a common die for a fatter case like a .308 Win. with the proper .303 sized expander. Size only the upper 75% of the neck and do not touch the shoulder. Remember the Lee Enfield chambers are nowhere close to the SAAMI dimensions of the US made loading dies. Once you get the case body expanded to fit your chamber you never want to size it again.


Finally keep your loads mild so you never have to FL size it because I guarantee the inside of your FL die is not going to match your chamber unless you get a custom die made to match.


Keep track of your brass. Examine it carefully before each loading for impending head separations.


For reference only


Case forming adventures tried


1. .30-40 Krag
About 20 years ago Krag brass made by RP and WW was about .455 on the head. I tried some of it and it worked OK for the most part. I did have one old case that separated without ever expanding the Krag shoulder forward. This one case might have been hinting that my pressure was too low and my powder was too slow expand the case before it pulled in two. The latest reports I have indicate that recent Krag brass is the same size at the head as current .303 brass. Check with a micrometer if you have any Krag brass.
I still have a few Krag cases in a box of ammo with about 12 different .303 head stamps



2. .444 Marlin
This brass is about the right length but requires several steps to form the neck. The case head is also too large at .464 to .466 so it has to be swaged or turned down. Swaging the head will split the common .44 magnum dies that I used. I found that the case walls of the .444 are significantly thicker at the case head junction.
.444 brass is so expensive now that I would not even bother. It did make long lasting brass and I am still shooting a box of it.


3. .405 Win brass made by Hornady
This was just a fun learning experience with 3 pieces. The .405 brass is tough and required several intermediate steps to form. The necks were too thick to chamber with a .312 bullet so they were turned and annealed.
The rims are right at the max that my rifle will close on. One of the rims was too thick and needed thinning from the front of the rim. These are very tough heavy cases that would last a long time. But they are very expensive and require a lot of work. The best thing is the case heads are .458 to .459 and will just barely fit the chambers with almost no expansion. You would have to polish out the base of a FL die to avoid sizing the solid head of these cases.


If all of these things don’t work the best I can recommend is some permanent modification of the chamber or rebarreling of the rifle. I have an idea for one change but I will not discuss it since I have not yet tried it.


I have bought once fired R-P and Norma brass that had partial head separations from being fired with the factory loads. This is the only caliber brass that I have ever bought with separations from the first firing of factory ammo. So I will recommend do not get your brass from factory ammo or any once fired brass if you can help it. Some brass is of high quality but it is often damaged by the first shot at full pressure.
Start with new brass and mild loads for longer case life.


Always wear safety glasses with one of these rifles. I have had many case head separations because I was using someone’s once fired brass. I have never had a gas leak but there is always a first time.