Maximum Meplat width for close range dangerous or heavy game ???

[Cold Trigger Finger]

So I'm new here but but not to brown bear hunting and defense.
I'm trying to figure out what is the Most effective bullet for my 480 Ruger.
I can shoot 420 gr cast at around 1200 fps . Haven't tried any 440 gr.
So Ive been looking at bullet molds and was wondering why .475+ molds seem to max out at a .4" meplat/nose width.
Is there some reason for this ?
Thank you .
Glen.

[44man]

The 420 at 1200 is fine. Shoot a bear in the head and you will remove his tail. No need to go more. Meplat is over blown. Too much will have a pressure wave that pushes tissue into a secondary wound channel that collapses. A WLN can work better then a WFN depending on velocity. It is always velocity.
You do NOT need a 440 gr.

[Outpost75]

A meplat which is larger than about .75 of bullet diameter is not stable at longer ranges beyond about 50 yards and acts more like a wadcutter. If you want the best long range accuracy beyond 50 yards limit meplat to no more than about 0.7 of the bullet diameter. For adequate game effectiveness, you want a meplat diameter not less than about 0.6 of bullet diameter. Keith type SWCs and the original black powder bullets loaded in calibers such as the .44-40 had meplat diameters 0.66 of meplat diameter or about .28 in the .44 cal., .30 in .45 cal. or .315" in your .480, which have proven to work well. You don't need larger.

[DougGuy]

You don't need larger.

The !&@#^*#% you say! If he's handgun distance from a big brown, he needs a HOWITZER!

A short barreled shotgun loaded with slugs is a MUCH more effective arm against a brown than any revolver made. You or the bear will never know the difference in meplat of your 420gr boolit. Shot placement is WAY more important than meplat, a well placed shot won't matter what meplat you use.

[44man]

A meplat which is larger than about .75 of bullet diameter is not stable at longer ranges beyond about 50 yards and acts more like a wadcutter. If you want the best long range accuracy beyond 50 yards limit meplat to no more than about 0.7 of the bullet diameter. For adequate game effectiveness, you want a meplat diameter not less than about 0.6 of bullet diameter. Keith type SWCs and the original black powder bullets loaded in calibers such as the .44-40 had meplat diameters 0.66 of meplat diameter or about .28 in the .44 cal., .30 in .45 cal. or .315" in your .480, which have proven to work well. You don't need larger.
Not true. Nothing to do with accuracy. I shoot WFN to 500 meters with revolvers. Best is 2-1/2" at 500. 83% meplat. But true in an animal, YOU DO NOT NEED LARGER.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

, OK.
The need part is subjective. Trust me , when you have a pissid off bear @ 15 feet . I agree that shot placement is most important but often times things are happening real fast and precise shot placement is very iffy .
Since the 500 Smith is too much recoil for me. I've settled on the 480. And want All I can get from it.
I used to use the 410 gr cast Buffalo Bore factory load. But never had to kill a bear with it . But it sure was alot more conforting than the 44 I had been packing. I was running 320 gr CPBs @ 1200 fps. Which I did have to use on 1 bear. Agressive but not big. Just a punk in a brown fur coat that decided it would take over my camp. It worked and I didnt get chewed . But I was seriously underwhelmed with its ability to put a bear on the ground.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I appreciate all the replies.
Thank You.

[popper]

One ounce slug from a pistol - I can't take it. Did 4 12ga slugs in a mossy 500 and quit. Assume you use a hard alloy?

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Actually, in my shooting with 3 of the 4, SRH 480s Ive had . My newest one, I havent run anything other than the 325 gr factory loads in. I shot both the 325 gr factory XTP and the 410 gr Buffalo Bore . And handloads with the 400 gr Speer plated bullet @ 1200 fps.
The 400 + gr loads @ 1200 were alot nicer to shoot than the 325s at nearly 1400 fps.
Really, not a problem to control from the 7 1/2" SRH.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

:killingpc

[nhyrum]

The !&@#^*#% you say! If he's handgun distance from a big brown, he needs a HOWITZER!

500 linebaugh may be just that.

Elmer Keith had figured out that around 70 percent meplat is the hardest hitting and most accurate.

I got a 454 for grizz and pray every day I don't have to use it for that intended purpose.

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[Cold Trigger Finger]

A 500 L is a great cart. I dont know of anyone using one on a bear. Tho I do have a couple friends that have them. They dont live on the coast, so they arent around alot of bear. I do know of charging brown bear being killed with full house 500 S&W . With 400 gr Seirra bullets on top of 40 gr of H110 iirc. It worked amazingly well.
But, I have a 480. The 4th 7.5" SRH Ive had. I trust it around brown bear more than I do the 44 mag.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I dont know if Elmer ever used his cast bullets on brown bear.
I still don't know why the 70% or 80 % rule applies or exactly to what degree it applies. For close range on bears.
I'm not saying it doesn't, I would like to know if there is, are or were tests conducted with up to 95% meplat diameter.

[nhyrum]

I dont know if Elmer ever used his cast bullets on brown bear.
I still don't know why the 70% or 80 % rule applies or exactly to what degree it applies. For close range on bears.
I'm not saying it doesn't, I would like to know if there is, are or were tests conducted with up to 95% meplat diameter.
He probably didn't, and he probably didn't go much bigger than 44.but. he DID do A LOT of testing, and meplat diameters.

The Keith swc is a fantastic all around bullet. Sure, a larger one may hit harder, a lfn will be more accurate blah blah blah...

Hell, for bear you might even want to cast straight linotype in a wadcutter shape, like buffalo bore's stuff usually is.

Personally, I'm loading my 454 with solids.



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[Cold Trigger Finger]

The !&@#^*#% you say! If he's handgun distance from a big brown, he needs a HOWITZER!

A short barreled shotgun loaded with slugs is a MUCH more effective arm against a brown than any revolver made. You or the bear will never know the difference in meplat of your 420gr boolit. Shot placement is WAY more important than meplat, a well placed shot won't matter what meplat you use.

The problem is that what bullets are in the gun is something that can be planned and accomplished.
Where as getting in a perfect shot may not be. Bear problems happen where and when they do. A plan can be made for if one occurs but if you are in a dense bear area in thich brush like is found in S.E. Ak. You really Never know when you will bump into a bear or a bear will bump into you.
Granted being a very good shot helps . And no doubt I need to continue to work on my shooting.
As far as shotguns go, if I'm in a situation wgere I can have a long gun. I use my 458 Winchester. Its vastly superior to a shotgun for dumping brown bear.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

He probably didn't, and he probably didn't go much bigger than 44.but. he DID do A LOT of testing, and meplat diameters.

The Keith swc is a fantastic all around bullet. Sure, a larger one may hit harder, a lfn will be more accurate blah blah blah...

Hell, for bear you might even want to cast straight linotype in a wadcutter shape, like buffalo bore's stuff usually is.

Personally, I'm loading my 454 with solids.



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When I had a F.A. M 83 Field Grade I tried some Cor Bon factory ammo with 320 gr Belt Mt.Punch bullets . If I remember they were going around 1625 fps. I couldn't find anything that that bullet didnt penetrate straight thru. I am considering trying the 380 gr in my 480 . But they are $2.50 a piece.
In the long run thats cheap insurance. As long as they do a great job.

[nhyrum]

When I had a F.A. M 83 Field Grade I tried some Cor Bon factory ammo with 320 gr Belt Mt.Punch bullets . If I remember they were going around 1625 fps. I couldn't find anything that that bullet didnt penetrate straight thru. I am considering trying the 380 gr in my 480 . But they are $2.50 a piece.
In the long run thats cheap insurance. As long as they do a great job.
Those freedoms are gorgeous guns. Being in the state they're made in I see a decent amount at local shops. Probably the smoothest revolver I've ever touched

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[Cold Trigger Finger]

Yup, it was. I wish I still had it. It was something of a handfull at max velocity . But wasnt too expensive to shoot with 45 Colt handloads. It was with that gun that I learned the 360gr Oregon Trail cast wfn bullet couldnt stand up to a bull mooses forehead. Well, at 1500 fps, it shattered it, but that bullet desintergrated. I was not impressed.
I would like one in 475 Linebaugh.

[44man]

I love the .475. I have the BFR but I played with a friends Freedom a lot. A little harsh so he bought the rubber grips. The Lee 400 gr had to be seated just right but my boolit fits them. Mine is 420 gr and I got down under 1" at 50 with the Freedom. Have to shoot them fast with the slower twist.
I run the BFR at 1329 fps, blew 4 gallon jugs sky high, split the fifth and penetrated 17 jugs in a straight line. I thought sure we could catch a boolit but I don't know how many jugs I would need.
The 480 is a little slower but might even penetrate more so if a bear can stand up to either it is time for a cannon.
No way I could pull a quick draw so I would have the gun in hand in bear country. Better then a rifle or shotgun slung over the shoulder. A long gun would also be in my hands. Those critters are FAST.
Velocity is not the do-all, I shot through a 16" box elder tree with my .45 Colt at 1160 fps. 320 gr. Also cut a 1" grape vine at exit and never found the boolit in the ground. The .475 did not know a tree was there.
The .480 will do it.

[44man]

I forgot to mention I use just WD WW metal of about 20 BHN. They never break.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Do you heat treat them ? I was a timber faller and pre commercial tree thinner in southeast Alaska for decades. Much/most of it on Baranof and Chichagof islands. Spent so much time around so many bears . I got quite an edjucation. Shotguns arent very good at killing brown bear unless you use just a special slug. And then they are only about as good as a 338 or 375. Not even close to a 416 or 458 . Which is what I packed when thinning tr3s most of the time . Along with a heavy revolver mostly.
When falling timber I just had the revolver with me.
But, I was never set up to cast my own so bought what I could. And reliaded. When CorBon and Buffalo Bore ammo came out I kept that in my gun. But now I'm in a position to start casting when I get back to work , hopefully soon. So, I have lits to learn.
I'll start with the 400 gr Lee plain base mold and maybe add an Accurate Mold and an LBT mold in wfn style. Thats the plan anyway.

[44man]

I just water drop WW boolits. Should be fine in a .480.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Ok . Thanks. !!

[Cold Trigger Finger]

. Again, I really do appreciate all the replies.
44; how well does the BFR handle the recoil of those 420 gr loads @ 1330fps ? Is that the boolit you shoot at long range ? You must have an optic on it. Any more with iron sights , if I get a 4" group at 25 yards with Any hand gun I'm a happy guy. I am thinking strongly about scoping my Super Redhawk. Probably just go with a fixed 2 power. Tho I wish I could find a pistol scope that was built as tough as a 1-4×24 SWFA Tactical scope.

[44man]

. Again, I really do appreciate all the replies.
44; how well does the BFR handle the recoil of those 420 gr loads @ 1330fps ? Is that the boolit you shoot at long range ? You must have an optic on it. Any more with iron sights , if I get a 4" group at 25 yards with Any hand gun I'm a happy guy. I am thinking strongly about scoping my Super Redhawk. Probably just go with a fixed 2 power. Tho I wish I could find a pistol scope that was built as tough as a 1-4×24 SWFA Tactical scope.
It is snappy with a lot of torque from the bench. Barrel rise is fast too. But no pain unlike a lighter Freedom. Cylinder is longer but my boolit fits a Freedom. I can no longer shoot as good as the boolit will.
I switched to Ultra Dots for hunting. Plain Jane 4 minute model holds up. Scopes are better for target but target choice can make a red dot work.
Super Redhawk is wonderful, I shot pop cans at 200 with mine with a scope, red dot killed many deer. My friend talked me out of it so I could buy a BFR.
My crazy boolit has an .080" base band and is a PB. I figured wrong making the cherry until I shot them. I made my .500 JRH the same and it has done 1/2" at 100. Don't know why it works like it does. I also like more GG's on my boolits. Worst is the one big groove on a Keith. A Lee TL with a good lube is better. I never bought into the less lube thing. If you see leaving one groove empty is more accurate, you have magic powers. Wish I could tell.
But I can show you.188249 This is the JRH, copy of the .475, see the crazy base? 188250 .475 boolit. 188251 It took 2 shots to hit this at 100 yards with the Ultra Dot, first was 1/2" right, second got it. JRH at 1350 fps. To even see a shotgun shell at 100 is funny. I taped it to white paper.

[LIMPINGJ]

While y'all are talking about 475 and 480, could I get your thought on which dies you like for a BFR in 475L. I will get mine about the end of April and am needing to get set up to load for it.
Thanks

[Cold Trigger Finger]

44 . Wow. Thanks ! . There are a couple things I dont understand tho. I don't see what you mean with the base on that boolit. I agree with the mulit grease grooves. Kinda like a grooved or driving band rifle bullet. Should reduce pressure and hopefully reduce leading. . I've had varmint rifles that couldnt on purpose hit a shotgun shell at 100 until I did a bunch of stuff to them.
The 500 JRH is a cart that has caught my attention in the past and is getting more of my attention now. Iirc the BFR was available in it. I don't know if it still is. What is the meplat diameter of your favorite 475&500 bullets ?
I emailed LBT and asked about max meplat dia. Mr Smith replied and explained to me that once a certain % is passed . The bullet will tumble inside the animal and reduce/stop straight line penetration. So, thats the reason for the 80% rule.
Limping J ; I'm planning on getting Lee dies. My last set of 480/475 L dies were RCBS. They worked fine . But I REALLY like the Lee Factory Crimp die for its ability to keep bullets from jumping their crimp. So I plan on getting Lee to make one for my 480.
Glen.

[44man]

I use Hornady dies now for everything.
I meant the length of the base driving band.
The meplat on my .475 is .375", about 79% and the JRH is .400" or about 80%. I have one boolit for my 45-70 that is 83% and it shoots good.
You can see the crimp on my brass but notice the case tension.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The OP very rightly didn't ask about long or medium range. The beasts of the field can't shoot at you, and with any animal except a professional maneater I think quiet negotiation while walking backwards from fifty yards is better than shooting a pistol at him. It is at much closer distances and under extreme mental stress that real danger happens, and the best load is the most that lets you fire a second aimed shot very quickly indeed, if the first misses.

[OS OK]

I use Hornady dies now for everything.
I meant the length of the base driving band.
The meplat on my .475 is .375", about 79% and the JRH is .400" or about 80%. I have one boolit for my 45-70 that is 83% and it shoots good.
You can see the crimp on my brass but notice the case tension.

Is the brass burnished from coming out of a 'Carbide Factory Crimp' die?

[tazman]

I would probably be better off shooting myself in the head than trying to hit a bear with a powerful handgun under close and personal circumstances. I would carry a long gun since I know I can shoot one of those accurately under trying conditions.
That's just me though. Others are much better shots with handguns than I am. I know my limitations.

[44man]

Is the brass burnished from coming out of a 'Carbide Factory Crimp' die?
No, I don't like them.
The .475 dies have a TIN size ring but the .500 S&W dies that are used for the JRH are steel and cases need lubed. Must use a good lube on them.
The expander in the Hornady dies do not go deep so my boolit is the final expander and is why I WD. If I need expansion I cast a softer nose. Softer lead will not stand up to seating. You can see ripples from the GG's on my brass.
Hornady dies have an inline seater that is very easy to remove and keep clean, does no damage. I also seat and crimp at the same time, never found a reason to do two things.

[MT Gianni]

It is coming on bear season and I would get a dead one and fire some shots in it, then autopsy your cartridges results. A meplate kills by displacing tissue and causing resultant blood loss. You need both that and penetration to break down shoulders and or disrupt heart or brain function. I doubt if any two results will be the same but all will be close.

[pmer]

I had Accurate Molds draw me up a longer nose version of the Lee 325 for use in my 480 Ruger. It has a pretty wide nose at .395'' and is at .829 width ratio. Its the 48-380V and I use 325 grain load data for it in my Bishawk for start data because the grove to base length is the same for both. Lee has a 400 grain LFN too but this 380 grain would be better up close IMO.

Buffalo bore sells a 370 grain (382 grain) load at 1000 & 1300 FPS for the 480 Ruger.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I use Hornady dies now for everything.
I meant the length of the base driving band.
The meplat on my .475 is .375", about 79% and the JRH is .400" or about 80%. I have one boolit for my 45-70 that is 83% and it shoots good.
You can see the crimp on my brass but notice the case tension.

료ㅕㅑㅠㄴㅇㄷ개ㅔㅑ

[Cold Trigger Finger]

료ㅕㅑㅠㄴㅇㄷ개ㅔㅑ

Sorry bout that . Keyboard got switched to Korean .
44; I see the gg ripples on your 500 brass. Thanks for the measurements.
For those wondering, when living and working in the timber. There are somethings that ya just have to be able to do. You'd be surprised with the things you can get good at when the choice is either , do it right or get real bloody or dead.
I'm a pretty crappy handgun shot. But have hid behind a handgun many many times in brown bear encounters and never had to shoot the bear. The bear figured out that 1 more step on it part and I was going to kill it. With rifles in hand I've done that same thing with rifles at least 75 times. But. That is over more than 2 decades time.
Started back in the day when the biggest bullet available for my 44mag Vaginian Dragoon was the 265 gr Hornady that had something of a round nose.
That was a while ago.

[pmer]

I just came in from shooting the 48-380V with 24.7/296 and had the shooting Chrony with. 6.5'' Bishawk 480 Ruger averaged 1232 FPS with a extreme spread 70 FPS for 15 shots. The brass came out easy too.

20.5/2400 with Lee 325 grains shot a average of 1241 FPS with a ES 57 but only had 5 shots of these left. Out of loaded ammo for the 480 now.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Pmer; the Bisley 480 Ruger is a 5 shot isn't it ? That seems like a good load with the 380 gr . Are u using irons or an optic on yours ?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

료ㅕㅑㅠㄴㅇㄷ개ㅔㅑ

ذلك مثير للاهتمام


That is very interesting. Copying in from Google translate does the same, but an almost excessively creative font from an MS Word document doesn't.

Sorry. I just couldn't help myself.

[pmer]

Yep, It's bone stock with iron sights and 5 shots. The rear sight is almost bottomed out with the heavier boolit. Some have installed a higher front site. I think I can make that 380 grain go a little faster and still feel safe with it. That 325 grain load is easier to shoot though.

So I take it that you aren't a 10mm in a 1911 type of guy. Do any of your buds go that route on the coast up there? I tried that in a Glock model 40 and couldn't get where I wanted to go with it. I traded it for a Ruger 44 snubbie (Alaskan) and my groups went from large to small with bigger boolits.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I pack a G20 SF everyday. I got mine a few years ago and really like it. But, I haven't killed anything with it yet. I load the Buffalo Bore 220 gr TC hard cast load for large 4 footed animals . Generally speaking I'm a rifle guy. 4 years ago I got a 6.5 Creedmoor in a Ruger stainless Hawkeye as my winter rifle. And just love the thing for furbearers and caribou. Before freeze up, I hunt with my 9.3×64 Brenneke or my 458 Winchester.
When I lived on the coast, I relied on mostly my 458 or one of several 416s and occasionally 375s and 338s .
Sometimes tho a guy cant have a rifle on him so I would rely on large caliber revolvers.
In my G20 I put a Lone Wolf barrel and 20 lb spring in a stainless guide rod. However I have got a bit of battering of the recoil shoulders of the frame with Hot loads so I'll put a threaded barrel and muzzle brake on it for doing lots of shooting with the 220s . I might try a heavier recoil spring first tho. Having 15 rounds of hard cast 220 gr bullets at 1200 fps is pretty good tho. In such a nice light and small package.
I do Really like big revolvers tho.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I think a G21 SF with a good muzzle brake and heavy spring in 45 Super pushing a 250 gr hard cast fn bullet at 1150fps or so may be a bit better on bear. But it comes down to putting the bullet in the right spot . I shoot the SRH acceptably and generally the G20 . So I fall back on them for handguns.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I had Accurate Molds draw me up a longer nose version of the Lee 325 for use in my 480 Ruger. It has a pretty wide nose at .395'' and is at .829 width ratio. Its the 48-380V and I use 325 grain load data for it in my Bishawk for start data because the grove to base length is the same for both. Lee has a 400 grain LFN too but this 380 grain would be better up close IMO.

Buffalo bore sells a 370 grain (382 grain) load at 1000 & 1300 FPS for the 480 Ruger.

There is a ton of good information in this thread. This post spured a question in my mind . I wonder if gain twist rifling would help with A really wide meplat.
I think it makes sense that the reason a wider meplat tends to tumble could be too slow a twist for the forces that can occur far away from the gyroscopic center of the bullet. But due to the shearing of lead as it starts down the bore. With gain twist the pressures would have a more moderated peak pressure and allow greater velocity and more rpm to help withstand the off center impact forces.
I don't know if that makes sense. I believe that's partly why S&W went with gain twist with the 460 XVR.
??????
COURSE, I don't know if all the extra work would pay off in dramitacly improved killing ability of the 480 Ruger.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

The 380 gr bullet may be the best happy medium. .

[Cold Trigger Finger]

The 380 gr bullet may be the best happy medium. .

[Lloyd Smale]

never killed a grizzly with a 475 but have killed 4 buffalo, a black bear @240lbs, a few pigs and deer with the 475. Ive used lfns and wfns and never saw a difference in killing power. A wfn might be an advantage with something like a 357 or 41 mag but with guns as big as the 475 an lfn has a metplat as big or bigger then a wfn in a 44mag. To me ill take the advantage of deaper penetration with something that weights over 600lbs that a lfn gives you. Now that said I never had what I would call poor penetration with a good wfn in a buffalo either. I guess if you want an honest opinion I would say to shoot the bullet that shoots the most accurately out of your 475 and don't worry about the metplat. Neither bullet will kill something deader then the other. A 400 grain lfn or wfn out out of a 475 has killed elephant and will penetrate stem to stern on about any bear you poke it into. I'm a 500 linebaugh fan but if held down and forced to answer id say the 475 is the most effective hunting handgun ever designed.

[murf205]

Cold Trigger Finger, how do you carry your handgun? I've tried to carry my 4" 629 with a chest rig and it gets in the way fishing and doing camp chores. Same thing with strong side carry on the belt. I guess if God had meant for us to carry things weighing 3-5 lbs, he would have given us a pouch like a kangaroo. My SRH has a 9 1/2" barrel so I put a swivel stud in the bottom of the grip and use a shotgun sling around the barrel and a swivel in the grip stud, so that I can put the sling over my head and under my armpit. I had a green fiber optic front sight put on my gun and it really stands out well on the wet hide of moose so I would think it would on a bear too.

[44man]

All of my hunting revolvers have a sling, the best sling is the 6' utility sling I get from Midsouth. It allows the gun to hang at my hand when walking. It wants to swing some so I hold the grip when deer hunting, no weight in my hand.
I use a shoulder holster that keeps it out of the way, I don't like a chest rig.

[aspangler]

For a rifle what would be wrong with the 45-70? In a bolt gun with good handloads it is legal to hunt elephant in Africa. Won't it stop a bear?

[Cold Trigger Finger]

My fon isn't letting me upload pics ��. I've always wore a strong side belt holster with a full flap. My first one I bought. It was a Hunter brand. Now I make all my holsters.
Being a PNW/ Southeast Alaskan timber beast. I always wear good button on suspenders. Been wearing them for 35 years . Falling timber, thinning trees, framing houses , climbing trees. I'm pretty used to wearing stuff on a waist belt. All my 480s have been 7 1/2" barrels.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

..n..

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Lloyd; I'm still mentally wrasslin with what I know about killing brown bear , the 1200 fps advocated cast bullet velocity and meplat diameter/caliber/bullet weight.
In the factory gun form, I can handle the 480 Ruger/ 400+gr bullets at 1200 fps. I have found that combo easy to shoot as good as I can any handgun.
However, I do wonder about the differences between the 44 up thru the 500. On heavy game.
I seriously doubt there is a lick of difference on a deer.
. It makes sense to me that a wider meplat would transmit more force, as long as it continued penetrating nose first.
But, if you haven't seen any difference between the LFN and WFN nose profile then that also bears lots of pondering.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Aspangler;
Yup, the 45/70 works pretty good. I just vastly prefer the 458 Winchester. Or a 416.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

As a general rule I have always packed a handgun for the convience of having a gun on me without it stopping me from using my hands to work ect. The gun must always be ready to function instantly , regardless of what I've been doing that day . Living and working in heavy rainfall rain forests really puts alot of emphasis on protecting the gun from rain, snow, needles, saw dust, ect. I wear mine on the back half of my hip. I am currently trying out a chest holster with my G20 and in many ways , I like it.
There are somethings I just HAD to learn to deal with and tweak my carry systems as needed. I was looking at my 480 last night and thinking about how I would make another holster for when I put an optic on it.

[pmer]

I don't think there is a lot to worry about as far as the tumbling unless the twist rate is too slow for the length of projectile being used. I think the 420s on down in a Ruger would be no trouble. I suppose the best way is to test it in a similar media.

Customsixguns.com has some material you can read about penetration and hand cannons. He has done tons of testing too. He's the father of the 475 and 500 Linebaughs.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Thank you !

[44man]

The .475 is an animal buster and one of the best but I never got into the .500 Linebaugh. I shot it and even made molds for it but the .512" boolit and brass can be a consideration. The Linebaugh is the exact length of the .500 JRH with a .501 boolit and brass can be cut from the .500 S&W. Nothing wrong with the Linebaugh except economics.
Even the .475 has the 45-70 as parent brass. I steer away from special stuff.

[MT Chambers]

The OP would do well to check out LBT molds as Veral offers ogival wide bullets, these are just off being wadcutters.

[fredj338]

, OK.
The need part is subjective. Trust me , when you have a pissid off bear @ 15 feet . I agree that shot placement is most important but often times things are happening real fast and precise shot placement is very iffy .
Since the 500 Smith is too much recoil for me. I've settled on the 480. And want All I can get from it.
I used to use the 410 gr cast Buffalo Bore factory load. But never had to kill a bear with it . But it sure was alot more conforting than the 44 I had been packing. I was running 320 gr CPBs @ 1200 fps. Which I did have to use on 1 bear. Agressive but not big. Just a punk in a brown fur coat that decided it would take over my camp. It worked and I didnt get chewed . But I was seriously underwhelmed with its ability to put a bear on the ground.

Even with the 44mag, it is still a handgun. Well placed rifle rounds have not proven 100% in putting an animal down at impact. So bigger is always better if you can shoot it well. In a packable gun, hard to beat the 4" N-frame or Ruger RH, 44mag or 45colt, 275-325gr bullets running 1200fps feels about right for me & not much stops them. I love the idea of a 475 or 500, but weight & shootability start to conflict for me.

[44man]

Two I refer to, one is Veral and the other was 'The Metal Man" or Bill Ferguson. I think Bill retired. For lube, my dear lost friend Felix. Sorry, ------------a minute of silence. For BP boolits it was rapine but Ray retired too.
What I learned is a pimple on a hogs butt compared to my friends. I give credit. But my experience with all boolits on deer has been learned the hard way but Veral has been right. I wish he was here.
I was on the site he is on once. forgot it and it was five years from a post, old phone line back then. I tried to log on to find I was banned. Called Veral and he said he did not know. Came from higher up. Stabbed in the back for telling the truth. Beware to not dispute the King of any site.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Ya, I enjoy pushing the boundaries. At least trying to get down to the base of the matter. No way I could afford a Linebaugh Bisley, tho I would love to have one. But the 500 JRH in a BFR is appealing. I dunno, If most all revolvers from 44 on up kill the same . Kinda makes a guy wonder why bother. I do know that my friend who had to kill a charging 26year old boar . Was very glad for every foot per second his 500 Smith was putting out . And the damage the bullets did to that bear was 416-458 rifle like. 2-3" Permanente cavity with 3' or more penetration.
I'm gonna have to take a friend with his 500 L Grizzly hunting.

[Lloyd Smale]

your 480 load is a good one Using an lfn or wfn it will kill as well as ANY handgun will if you put the bullet in the right spot. I think the 500 does have as slight advantage over the 475. it will shoot a 450 grain lfn at the same speed a 475 will push a 400. But keep in mind to do so you have to push the 500 about what John recommends in his loads. He designed the 500 more as a low pressure big bore round and the 475 as more of a jacked up 44 mag and loads to much higher pressures.

Bottom line though is the 500s will easily take the same pressures. One thing you need to keep in mind with these guns is recoil. You 480 shooting a 400 at 1200 has substantial recoil. Not terrible but a definite step up from a 44mag heavy bullet load. Now increase that to 1300 and recoil just substantialy. 1400 in a 475 with a 400 and you have a tiger by the tail. Now push a 450 out of the 500 at 1300 fps and you really need to pay attention and hold on. Bump that 50 fps and HOLD ON. I can feel a big difference between a 430 and a 450 at the same speed.

I mostly load my 500s at about 1050-1100 fps with a 420-450 and have fun. The 475 for the most part gets full power loads. 400-420s at 1300 fps. Both loaded like that the 500 is like shooting a 38 special compared to the 475. I would guess if you shot my 500 with a 420 at 1100 fps youd think your 480 had more recoil. Which setup would kill the best? Heck I don't know. Ive never lost an animal to either of them. If I could afford a griz hunt would I be comfortable with your gun and load? Yup if it was load with a 400 grain lfn casted at at least 16bhn it would probably go stem to stern on any bear and if not it surely will reach the vitals at ANY angle if you do your part. Is it going to cold cock a bear and knock it off its feet? Not a chance. But then not many are bowled over even by 458s. Truth be told even shooting deer with them most deer make at least 30-50 yards hit by a handgun of any size and yes that includes the 500s. Consider that a 500 linebaugh shooting a 420 at 1300 fps is power levels that the 4570 did with black powder when the buffalo hunters and custer were around. The trick with hunting with a handgun especially for something that bites back is be patient and get a shot that will break down both front shoulders. Not always easy to do though.
Lloyd; I'm still mentally wrasslin with what I know about killing brown bear , the 1200 fps advocated cast bullet velocity and meplat diameter/caliber/bullet weight.
In the factory gun form, I can handle the 480 Ruger/ 400+gr bullets at 1200 fps. I have found that combo easy to shoot as good as I can any handgun.
However, I do wonder about the differences between the 44 up thru the 500. On heavy game.
I seriously doubt there is a lick of difference on a deer.
. It makes sense to me that a wider meplat would transmit more force, as long as it continued penetrating nose first.
But, if you haven't seen any difference between the LFN and WFN nose profile then that also bears lots of pondering.

[rhouser]

I have seen a difference between accuracy of an LFN verses a WFN bullet in my 3x7 scoped 454 Casull SRH at 100 yards when shooting off a rest. Specifically between the Lee 300 grain and Lyman 345 grain boolits. At 50 and even 70 yards they both produced fine matching accuracy. At 100 yards the lee boolit wandered out. The only explanation I have is that the WFN was "planning".

I know that this is subjective, but, both were good to 70 yards and one was Less Good (6 inches) at 100.

Without the scope mounted (all the time when I am using it for critter defense) there is no accuracy difference. I have no need to engage anything that is 50 yards away from me. Watch it, yes, shoot it, no.

Regardless of the gun used, I am a proponent of tritium sights front and rear. If I can't see the sights, I am really S.O.L. in the dark. The cats eyes are a help in "tent grabbing" your choice in the night as well as pointing in the right direction.

Just my 2 cents. rch

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Thank y'all! I've been nudging one of my friends with a 500 Linebaugh (The single most beautiful handgun I've ever seen or held., Color case, blued, Dall Sheep horn grips. Just georgous!)
Anyway, I'm getting him mentally spoiled up for Grizzly hunting. He will start target practicing soon with it. 5 shots per day 5 days per week. He has a 450 gr NEI mold that drops a Keith style P.B. book it with a .36" meplat. I told him I'll back him up with my Spruce King (custom 458 Winchester on a SS Ruger M77 Mk ll. . Great thing about grizzly here in the Copper Basin. We don't even need a tag. Just a resident license. (Not bragging, just explaining). However , we don't have a real sense population of bears. I may take him to Southeast sometime.
Anyway , He really loves all things Elmer Keith , so I prolly can't talk him out of using that mold. His planned velocity is 1200-1250 fps.
. I will of course also be packing my 480 , so if we get into a herd of bears I'll take one with it. On the coast, we can only get 1 bear every 4 years and they have open and closed seasons. Here, there is no closed season. But here the bears are scattered out all over the place. However, He is also a moose Hunter so I'm hoping he will start using Beauty for moose also.

I haven't noticed any difference shooting deer with my 480 than I do with Any large bore rifle. Poke them thru the ribs and they usually run 20-40 yards. Where as a 308 with a 155gr Palma bullet @ 2800 fps just body slams a 160 lb Sitka Blacktail buck. However , I've dumped lots of brown bear in the 700- 1200 lb weight range with 1 shot from 458s and 416s and friends and acquaintances have also.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I agree that recoil is a huge factor. The reason I settled on the 480 was the most horsepower I could pack, that my wife could shoot. May sound odd. But, as we lived in dense bear country . And by dense I mean seeing seeing up to 40 bear in a day of not trying too hard at all.
I always had a rule, that my wife had to be able to shoot what ever guns I was packing in case I ended up under a bear and she had to shoot it off me.
So. She could hang into and shoot the SRH 480. Tho she refused to shoot the Vaquaro 44mag I had been packing ( 4 5/8") after the first shot . 300 gr @ 1200 fps.
I really don't find the recoil of the 400+gr bullet at 1200+ - a problem. Awful lot easier to shoot than my FA M83.7.5" 454 shooting a 360 gr around 1500 fps or a 320 gr over 1600 fps. Those loads a guy has to really hang onto.
I think once I get back to work I'll buy some different weight and shape Boolits from 380 up thru 440 gr and see how they shoot and how they do is wet paper and water jugs. The first mold I'll get will be the 400 gr Lee . Then I'll take everything I learn and get an LBT MOLD and maybe try an Accurate Mold. With 2 different shapes

[jaydub in wi]

Another option you may wish to consider, Al at NOE makes a 480 375 rf. The meplat looks to be about .375. He has some in stock with both pb and gc options. Keep us posted

Sent from my SM-G920R6 using Tapatalk

[Cold Trigger Finger]

What does the r f stand for ?

[jaydub in wi]

I believe it means round nose flat point. The profile is similar to LFN and WFN.

Sent from my SM-G920R6 using Tapatalk

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Ah, OK. I did check that mold out. It only has 1 true grease groove tho. Still, it is a nice looking bullet. Accurate molds has some nice looking 380 gr designs as has been mentioned in this thread. As well as heavier.
I did see they have a Really nice looking 375 mold . I think its a 275gr . I think it would work great in my 375 Whelan A.I. .

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Speaking of a mold , say a 3 cavity with 2 different shapes.
Does anyone see anything wrong with using it to cast only one shape and leave the single , or double cavity empty when casting. Or should a guy just fill all 3 up and put the ones he doesn't need or want , back in the pot/re cast ??

[Lloyd Smale]

I found the same. Most (not all) wfns and wlfns kind of go squirrely out past a 100 yards. We had a film at the linebaugh seminar that someone shot that you could acutally see bullets in flight and he tested quite a few wfns and it blew me away how wild they can go out past a 100 yards. I mean drastically!! I'm sure not all of then do it though. I know 44 man has got them to fly at at least moderate ranges. But I doubt any of them would fly well enough to do something like the long distance shoot at the linebaugh seminar. Watch one of the those and youll see what works and that's called an lfn. Ive watched guys hit a 3/4 sized steel buffalo target at a 1000 yards 5 out of 5 times with them and I did it myself 4 out of 5 times to win the 44 class. Now that said and getting real, your not shooting deer at a 1000 yards (at least not if your sane) My own imposed limit is a 100 yards and at that range a wfn or wlfn still flys plenty good enough. So in real world hunting its not really an issue.
your 480 load is a good one Using an lfn or wfn it will kill as well as ANY handgun will if you put the bullet in the right spot. I think the 500 does have as slight advantage over the 475. it will shoot a 450 grain lfn at the same speed a 475 will push a 400. But keep in mind to do so you have to push the 500 about what John recommends in his loads. He designed the 500 more as a low pressure big bore round and the 475 as more of a jacked up 44 mag and loads to much higher pressures.

Bottom line though is the 500s will easily take the same pressures. One thing you need to keep in mind with these guns is recoil. You 480 shooting a 400 at 1200 has substantial recoil. Not terrible but a definite step up from a 44mag heavy bullet load. Now increase that to 1300 and recoil just substantialy. 1400 in a 475 with a 400 and you have a tiger by the tail. Now push a 450 out of the 500 at 1300 fps and you really need to pay attention and hold on. Bump that 50 fps and HOLD ON. I can feel a big difference between a 430 and a 450 at the same speed.

I mostly load my 500s at about 1050-1100 fps with a 420-450 and have fun. The 475 for the most part gets full power loads. 400-420s at 1300 fps. Both loaded like that the 500 is like shooting a 38 special compared to the 475. I would guess if you shot my 500 with a 420 at 1100 fps youd think your 480 had more recoil. Which setup would kill the best? Heck I don't know. Ive never lost an animal to either of them. If I could afford a griz hunt would I be comfortable with your gun and load? Yup if it was load with a 400 grain lfn casted at at least 16bhn it would probably go stem to stern on any bear and if not it surely will reach the vitals at ANY angle if you do your part. Is it going to cold cock a bear and knock it off its feet? Not a chance. But then not many are bowled over even by 458s. Truth be told even shooting deer with them most deer make at least 30-50 yards hit by a handgun of any size and yes that includes the 500s. Consider that a 500 linebaugh shooting a 420 at 1300 fps is power levels that the 4570 did with black powder when the buffalo hunters and custer were around. The trick with hunting with a handgun especially for something that bites back is be patient and get a shot that will break down both front shoulders. Not always easy to do though.

[murf205]

Well Lloyd, with all that has been said, both pro and con, which style of boolit, WFN or WLN, do you find to be the most accurate at 100yds-from a 44 that is? I am referring to a 1-20 twist RedHawk.I personally feel that you have to drive the long(heavy) ones faster to get the stability but that may be just in my experience.

[44man]

Well Lloyd, with all that has been said, both pro and con, which style of boolit do you find to be the most accurate at 100yds-from a 44 that is? I personally feel that you have to drive the long(heavy) ones faster to get the stability but that may be just in my experience.
There is a limit with the .44. First is twist and then the case is not really big so you run into pressure limits. A big boolit can't be driven faster and is slower then a lighter boolit.
You must reduce as weight goes up. You can reach stability with heavy and a 1 in 20 twist none the less. A 320 LBT will reach 1316 fps with 21.5 gr of 296, Fed 150. My 330 is reduced to 21 gr. I never checked speed but it would be slower then an LBT or 310 Lee. It is stable anyway. This is 200 yards. 188890The groups I shot with a WFN at 500 meters, 547 yards, is hard to believe but spin is the key. This boolit at around 1100 fps is only good for 2' shotgun patterns at 50 yards.
Now the .480 Ruger follows the Freedom close, 1 in 18-3/4' and a freedom at 1 in 18". Slow so more velocity is needed. The BFR .475 is 1 in 15". As you increase boolit weight you run out of spin and velocity in the .480. I would think 400 gr as tops. But you will not be sorry, penetration can be unreal. No need to go faster to limit penetration. My .475 with a 420 gr is going 1329 fps and it did this on a buck at 65 yards. He was on a down slope facing me. I hit him under the chin, took the spine. Boolit took short ribs,188892 went under the back strap without a meat loss and exited the ham. To stop a .480 in a bear? Don't know. Can't see it.
The .475 blew up 4 gallon jugs of water, spit the fifth and penetrated 17 in a straight line. We thought sure that we could catch a boolit. NOT!
I would feel good with a .480, little slower but you will remove a bear tail.
No you can't shoot as far with the SRH in .480 but it is a wonderful gun, kept in range.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I didn't know it has the slowest twist. That bums me out as I'm a quick twist kinda guy.
The farthest I've shot my other 480s was 230+ paces . At a rock sticking out of the beach at our camp at 8Fathom Bight/ Port Frederick, Chichagof Is. I whacked it lots of times off hand with the factory sights . Shooting 400 gr Speer plated bullets. @ 1175 fps.

[44man]

Yet it still works. If there was no .475, I would have a .480. But I back up from the 500 S&W, TOO MUCH.
I really think many here wanted me to bash the .480, NOT. A great gun not given the full recognition.

[pmer]

I googled the Copper River Basin and it sure looks nice up there.

To me a good up close smash mouth boolit doesn't have to be designed for long range and should have a wide nose. When I was thinking of the 48-380V my thought was "why have a nose width that would look at home on a 45 cal. when this is a .475? - might as well go with a heavy 45 cal boolit then." When the range is 15 feet or less WFN or LWFN with a weight forward design to maximize case capacity is the way to go. At that range it won't do anything but go in a straight line.

For long range accuracy/hunting I've read that a .7 meplat ratio is the right blend of nose width and accuracy and most reloaders will be able to have success with that.

The Accurate 45-300G has .73 meplat ratio and a nose width of .330''. It's not the widest nosed 45 cal pistol boolit but it has worked great past 100 yards for deer. Even at 2300 FPS in a smokeless muzzle loader. This boolit is a hunting design with a nose length for use in lever action 92's.

Cold Trigger, don't fret over twist rates of 1-15 to 1-18.75, 1 in 24 would be a deal breaker.

44man, I've seen that 200 yard target many times. I see only 3 holes where are the other 12 holes? :D

Another way to help compare power is the Taylor KO calculator. John Taylor, a African hunter used some math to derive a number that might be more useful than muzzle energy.

My 380 grain 1223 FPS load is a '31' compared to '25' for a 320 grain 44 cal boolit going 1316 FPS. An average 240 grain 44cal. is 20TKO.

Lloyds 1400 FPS 400 grain 475 Linebaugh load has a TKO of 38 with 500 more lbs of muzzle energy than my 380 grain load for the 480 Ruger.

So the 480 Ruger is clearly head and shoulders above the 44 Magnum but on paper it doesn't compare to the 475 Linebaugh. This is the problem the 480 has always had - stuck in the middle of a problem that doesn't really exist. Whether the TKO is 25, 31 or 38 the critter is going to have major issues if any of these boolits hit the right spots.

http://handloads.com/calc/quick.asp Here is a link for a TKO calculator.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Yup, I have an old copy of African Rifles and Cartridges that I've about wore the print off the pages reading it so much. I got it in 86. Your 380V bullet may be just perfect for what I'm looking for , for a defense bullet.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I remember something Ross Seyfreid wrote in a G&A article about his Hawes 5 shot 45 Colt . When he was still professional hunting in Africa. He tried a real heavy weight on a cape buffalo. I think it was a 390 or 400 gr . Anyway, the bullet/bullets tumbled and stopped penetrating . Where as the more normal heavy weight bullets like the 340 gr he had used with good success from the same gun. One thing he said was , for revolver bullets to penetrate straight they can't be too long.
Which is why , now knowing of the slow twist I'm thinking the short wide 380V might work great . Even run at 1300 fps it should still be below shattering velocity if the bullets are tempered hard but tough.
Anyway, just some more stuff I'm pondering.
Push comes to shove, I can always turn it into a 5 shot 475 Linebaugh if needed.

[Lloyd Smale]

at a 100 yards its probably more of a matter of which bullet your specific gun prefers. To be honest I haven't fooled with wlfns much. Ive owned only two lbt molds for them. One a 44 and one a 45 and neither gave accuracy at even 50 yards that beat out other bullet designs. I'm talking 2 inch groups where I had lfns and swcs that shot half that in the same guns. So down the road they went. I don't mind holding on to a 40 dollar lee mold that isn't panning out hoping that someday I will get a gun that likes the design but when your talking 120 dollar molds there just to expensive to let collect dust. So I sell them telling the buyer that they haven't panned out for me and let them stuggle with them. Now like I said that 2 molds not 20. I'm sure theres a wlfn mold out there that one of my guns would drive nails with but I wont waste anymore money trying to find it when I can buy a lfn mold and about be guaranteed that a number of my guns will shoot it exceptionaly well and it gives up absolutely nothing in the hunting field. NO DEER is going to live shot with an lfn that died from a wfn or wlfn put in the same spot. If it made one more leap and that could be proven id be very surprised
Well Lloyd, with all that has been said, both pro and con, which style of boolit, WFN or WLN, do you find to be the most accurate at 100yds-from a 44 that is? I am referring to a 1-20 twist RedHawk.I personally feel that you have to drive the long(heavy) ones faster to get the stability but that may be just in my experience.

[Lloyd Smale]

sure agree with you there. Its hands down the most under rated and overlooked handgun round on the market. Ive got 475s and 500s and they cost me big bucks. To be totally honest ive never killed a single head of game with one of those that the 480 wouldn't have done just as well on. Truth be told about 90 percent of the 475 shooters I know are shooting them at 480 levels anyway. there is NOTHING I wouldn't be afraid to handgun hunt with a 480 loaded with a good 400 lfn at 1200 fps as long as the alloy matched the game. Even my 44s with my favorite "fantasy hunt" load would not make me nervous. Its a 340 grain ballistic tip lfngc that I took to the linebaugh seminar loaded to 1200fps out of a 5.5 bisley (hot) It took 3rd place in the penetration testing that year and that was against 500s, 475s, 454s, 45 colt heavies and even a few African stopping rifles including my own #1 458mag. I have not doubt that bullet would shoot stem to stern in any north American game animal and kill another one behind it. If you haven't noticed yet I like lfns:lovebooli. By the way the two loads that beat it out were both out of 475s. I already told you about the long range event that I used the same bullet o. Try that test with a wfn and id be impressed if you could even tell where the bullet hit. By the way every handgun category was won by lfns. Anymore I doubt youd ever see me spending 10 bucks on an wfn mold. Just cant see taking the chance or compromising what I can accomplish with an lfn. I'm a big elmer keith fan and have lots of keith designed molds too but that was back when I was working and to be honest ive had swc molds that were duds too. So I doubt id buy another swc mold again either. Sorry elmer I know that's blasphemy from me but its the truth.

[LIMPINGJ]

With the words dangerous and close in the thread title I would think go for the wfn design. Or is there some concern about penetrating deep enough in a straight line? I have a BFR in 475 on order for bear protection while fishing in AK. Any use will be measured in feet so no need to hit targets at hundreds of yards. For me a long shot at any game with a handgun would be 50 yards. For my use for this revolver is my thinking of ordering the wfn mold design be correct? Your thoughts?

[murf205]

sure agree with you there. Its hands down the most under rated and overlooked handgun round on the market. Ive got 475s and 500s and they cost me big bucks. To be totally honest ive never killed a single head of game with one of those that the 480 wouldn't have done just as well on. Truth be told about 90 percent of the 475 shooters I know are shooting them at 480 levels anyway. there is NOTHING I wouldn't be afraid to handgun hunt with a 480 loaded with a good 400 lfn at 1200 fps as long as the alloy matched the game. Even my 44s with my favorite "fantasy hunt" load would not make me nervous. Its a 340 grain ballistic tip lfngc that I took to the linebaugh seminar loaded to 1200fps out of a 5.5 bisley (hot) It took 3rd place in the penetration testing that year and that was against 500s, 475s, 454s, 45 colt heavies and even a few African stopping rifles including my own #1 458mag. I have not doubt that bullet would shoot stem to stern in any north American game animal and kill another one behind it. If you haven't noticed yet I like lfns:lovebooli. By the way the two loads that beat it out were both out of 475s. I already told you about the long range event that I used the same bullet o. Try that test with a wfn and id be impressed if you could even tell where the bullet hit. By the way every handgun category was won by lfns. Anymore I doubt youd ever see me spending 10 bucks on an wfn mold. Just cant see taking the chance or compromising what I can accomplish with an lfn. I'm a big elmer keith fan and have lots of keith designed molds too but that was back when I was working and to be honest ive had swc molds that were duds too. So I doubt id buy another swc mold again either. Sorry elmer I know that's blasphemy from me but its the truth.
Lloyd, do you think that the slight taper of the lfn and even wfn boolits contributes to the boolit entering the forcing cone and self aligning it's self? Mike Venturino recently wrote that he believes round nose boolits do this, I don't know for sure.I'm fortunate I that my SRH loves 429421 Lymans, but I have had other 44's that didn't exactly warm up the that design at all. Elmer would forgive you...after all, you are hunting with a handgun.

[Lloyd Smale]

I'm sure it does. Especially on a gun that everything isn't perfect and lock up is sloppy or not in perfect alignment with the barrel. I'm not one that rides on every word veral smith says but ive seen him voice that opinion too. but then he was trying to sell his molds. All I know is any difference in effectiveness on game between a wfn and an lfn is more in the head of the user then the animal hit by the bullet. Like I said I my be an lfn cheerleader but that design does more with less compromise then any other cast bullet design. Its accurate, stable, has a better bc, penetrates deaper and is less finiky to load for. I can name lots of things it does better then any other design but nothing it gives up to any of them. No brainer to me. Ive killed lots of game with cast bullets and have witnessed a heck of a lot more and have never seen an animal lost to a good hit by an lfn. Seen enough hit with them and other designs like swcs, keiths, and yes wfns to give an educated opinion and that is as far as killing they all do about the same. Youll find most of the guys that argue that are guys that kill paper and get there knowledge from the internet and not the field. Nothing wrong with a wfn if its what you want to use but don't think you turned your framing hammer into a sledge hammer by choosing a wfn over an lfn or swc. Ill say the exact same thing about soft nosed cast bullets. More something different to play with then something world changing.
Lloyd, do you think that the slight taper of the lfn and even wfn boolits contributes to the boolit entering the forcing cone and self aligning it's self? Mike Venturino recently wrote that he believes round nose boolits do this, I don't know for sure.I'm fortunate I that my SRH loves 429421 Lymans, but I have had other 44's that didn't exactly warm up the that design at all. Elmer would forgive you...after all, you are hunting with a handgun.

[44man]

I can answer and it is yes. Important to clock the cylinder. If you look at my .44 boolit, I cut the ogive as close to 11° I could since my gun has an 11° forcing cone.
The RNFP, LFN and WFN also clock the cylinder. I have had revolvers that shot the 429421 but they had perfect alignment. But you still need some play in the cylinder so it can move.
A bank vault tight gun that is even a few thousandths off will wear the throats and forcing cone off center. A revolver that clocks will never show wear. Be thankful for the tiny movement you feel.
A tight gun is a safe queen that you hand a friend to brag about how tight it is fit.
Now it is true you don't need to dig one hole at 50 or 100 for a bear gun but you want penetration and energy. At feet you do not need accuracy but you need effective boolits.

[44man]

I'm sure it does. Especially on a gun that everything isn't perfect and lock up is sloppy or not in perfect alignment with the barrel. I'm not one that rides on every word veral smith says but ive seen him voice that opinion too. but then he was trying to sell his molds. All I know is any difference in effectiveness on game between a wfn and an lfn is more in the head of the user then the animal hit by the bullet. Like I said I my be an lfn cheerleader but that design does more with less compromise then any other cast bullet design. Its accurate, stable, has a better bc, penetrates deaper and is less finiky to load for. I can name lots of things it does better then any other design but nothing it gives up to any of them. No brainer to me. Ive killed lots of game with cast bullets and have witnessed a heck of a lot more and have never seen an animal lost to a good hit by an lfn. Seen enough hit with them and other designs like swcs, keiths, and yes wfns to give an educated opinion and that is as far as killing they all do about the same. Youll find most of the guys that argue that are guys that kill paper and get there knowledge from the internet and not the field. Nothing wrong with a wfn if its what you want to use but don't think you turned your framing hammer into a sledge hammer by choosing a wfn over an lfn or swc. Ill say the exact same thing about soft nosed cast bullets. More something different to play with then something world changing.
I have to agree even if I get a WFN to shoot good. I have never found a WFN to kill faster and most times it is worse as I said before, pressure wave wider then a WLN.
The slower the WFN gets as it penetrates an animal the better but you might be in the guts after leaving the vitals.

[murf205]

I can answer and it is yes. Important to clock the cylinder. If you look at my .44 boolit, I cut the ogive as close to 11° I could since my gun has an 11° forcing cone.
The RNFP, LFN and WFN also clock the cylinder. I have had revolvers that shot the 429421 but they had perfect alignment. But you still need some play in the cylinder so it can move.
A bank vault tight gun that is even a few thousandths off will wear the throats and forcing cone off center. A revolver that clocks will never show wear. Be thankful for the tiny movement you feel.
A tight gun is a safe queen that you hand a friend to brag about how tight it is fit.
Now it is true you don't need to dig one hole at 50 or 100 for a bear gun but you want penetration and energy. At feet you do not need accuracy but you need effective boolits.
For sure. When you are talking about feet to a pissed off bear, your best friend is enough familiarity with your gun to react automaticly. Boolit noses place waaay down the list, provided they are not jacketed!

[Cold Trigger Finger]

With the words dangerous and close in the thread title I would think go for the wfn design. Or is there some concern about penetrating deep enough in a straight line? I have a BFR in 475 on order for bear protection while fishing in AK. Any use will be measured in feet so no need to hit targets at hundreds of yards. For me a long shot at any game with a handgun would be 50 yards. For my use for this revolver is my thinking of ordering the wfn mold design be correct? Your thoughts?

Personally, I think you are spot on. ! As a bear guide friend of mine says. Wider is better. And Faster is better. I know that goes against what is taught in alot of places .
But, a 500 A-Square shooting a turned brass or copper solid in the identical shape as , say, a 450 gr LFN cast from a 500 Linebaugh. Because the A-2 can easily push that bullet at 2700 fps. It is going to make a permanent hole thru the bear that a base ball or soft ball will go thru. I've done that with 300 gr Barnes X bullets @ 2700 fps mv from my 458 Winchester. And the hole my 500 A-Square made was awe inspiring.
However, since we are talking similar velocities. It just makes sense that a fatter flat nose will blow more material out of the way.
Will the difference between a .36" and a .39-.40" nose keep you from getting bit. ?? I do not know ! But, as long as the bullets doesn't break up , and it stays " eyes in the boat". It will work. . I wouldn't be wasting any shots on warning shots. As a general rule the won't have much affect on a bear. The thing to do is try the WFN and LFN out in water jugs and wet news print. You want 3' of penetration in a bear. If you get more great . I don't know how that would tabulate in wet news print or water jugs.
Btw. For a frontal charge. My aim point is always the jaw. But usually, when they come, they are not in a straight line. Also, you want a controllable load . Too much recoil is not good. You need to be able to control the gun 1 handed with either hand. Not that you will be trying to shoot 1 handed. But, if you have to , you don't want your pistol jump In out of your hand or injuring you.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

So, if I may say so. I am very impressed with the members of this forum. Tons of knowledge and experience . But polite and courteous. I very much appreciate it.
My experience with bears is from a timber beast' s point of view. Not a hunters. Truth be told , I really like the bears that think they are The Boss. When they push, I make it a point to push back HARD. I let them start the fight. I make sure I always finish it. Most of the time by making run for their lives, almost scared to death. Most of the ruminate I kill are just walk In around freezer meat. I don't hunt Dall Sheep or Mt Goats . And I may let a Musk Ox stomp on me rather than harm it. But I Absolutely Love killing predators. A great big huge brown bear that runs from the sight, sound or scent of me, ehh, boring . I could care less about it. But those punks in brown or black fur coats . I just Love taking their life from them!! When you've been hunted by then as much as I have. You can either quit the country . Or turn the tables. When I work someplace, I train the bears to flee from me and mine. And bears are trainable. Just like dogs. You just have to be willing to do what ever is necessary to train them. Far too many nature fakers out in the brush training bears that people should fear bears. That's unnatural. And wrong. The old timers that settled this country had it figured out right. Anyway, that's the way I do er. 20 feet or so is a good distance to kill a brown bear at. Tho my last one was @ 47 measured feet. But, I had my wife with me so I didn't want to push things too far.

[Lloyd Smale]

I don't kill water jugs or wet print. I sat for a couple hours one day watch the charging bear game at the linebaugh seminar. Its a full sized bear target charging you dead on. You stand there knowing well that its going to come so you have that advantage. I sat and watched some of the best handgun shooters in the country shooting that target that cant bite back (including myself) Just the pressure of others watching humbled all of us. If you can shoot a live charging grizzly bear right on the jaw every time. If you can stand there that calm and collective, and must have because you said that that's where you aim on a frontal charge. I will take a step back and take my hat off to you. Then to do it one handed and with a low recoiling gun! Wow!!! I'm in awe of you.:2gunsfiring_v1:
Personally, I think you are spot on. ! As a bear guide friend of mine says. Wider is better. And Faster is better. I know that goes against what is taught in alot of places .
But, a 500 A-Square shooting a turned brass or copper solid in the identical shape as , say, a 450 gr LFN cast from a 500 Linebaugh. Because the A-2 can easily push that bullet at 2700 fps. It is going to make a permanent hole thru the bear that a base ball or soft ball will go thru. I've done that with 300 gr Barnes X bullets @ 2700 fps mv from my 458 Winchester. And the hole my 500 A-Square made was awe inspiring.
However, since we are talking similar velocities. It just makes sense that a fatter flat nose will blow more material out of the way.
Will the difference between a .36" and a .39-.40" nose keep you from getting bit. ?? I do not know ! But, as long as the bullets doesn't break up , and it stays " eyes in the boat". It will work. . I wouldn't be wasting any shots on warning shots. As a general rule the won't have much affect on a bear. The thing to do is try the WFN and LFN out in water jugs and wet news print. You want 3' of penetration in a bear. If you get more great . I don't know how that would tabulate in wet news print or water jugs.
Btw. For a frontal charge. My aim point is always the jaw. But usually, when they come, they are not in a straight line. Also, you want a controllable load . Too much recoil is not good. You need to be able to control the gun 1 handed with either hand. Not that you will be trying to shoot 1 handed. But, if you have to , you don't want your pistol jump In out of your hand or injuring you.

[pmer]

I remember something Ross Seyfreid wrote in a G&A article about his Hawes 5 shot 45 Colt . When he was still professional hunting in Africa. He tried a real heavy weight on a cape buffalo. I think it was a 390 or 400 gr . Anyway, the bullet/bullets tumbled and stopped penetrating . Where as the more normal heavy weight bullets like the 340 gr he had used with good success from the same gun. One thing he said was , for revolver bullets to penetrate straight they can't be too long.
Which is why , now knowing of the slow twist I'm thinking the short wide 380V might work great . Even run at 1300 fps it should still be below shattering velocity if the bullets are tempered hard but tough.
Anyway, just some more stuff I'm pondering.
Push comes to shove, I can always turn it into a 5 shot 475 Linebaugh if needed.

He probably ran into a combo of no case capacity for powder and wrong twist rate for the length of boolit. Still, it might've worked okay for him on smaller animals. Wouldn't be an issue for the weight of boolits were talking about here.

[jmort]

"I don't kill water jugs or wet print"

Is not the Bone Box testing done with wet news print, and with or without the bone??? I never knew about the bear simulation. One thing the Bone Box does demonstrate is that heavy handgun bullets at slow/moderate velocities penetrate real good. The Punch brass handgun bullets penetrate like crazy.

[pmer]

I don't kill water jugs or wet print. I sat for a couple hours one day watch the charging bear game at the linebaugh seminar. Its a full sized bear target charging you dead on. You stand there knowing well that its going to come so you have that advantage. I sat and watched some of the best handgun shooters in the country shooting that target that cant bite back (including myself) Just the pressure of others watching humbled all of us. If you can shoot a live charging grizzly bear right on the jaw every time. If you can stand there that calm and collective, and must have because you said that that's where you aim on a frontal charge. I will take a step back and take my hat off to you. Then to do it one handed and with a low recoiling gun! Wow!!! I'm in awe of you.:2gunsfiring_v1:

Speaking of moving targets here is a link to a moving target I made up. You have to lug it up the hill every time after you shoot at it but its good for a few laughs. Second hits are a lot easier with .22s and .38s. The model 10 Smith is fun on this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjUPWi9krro

Some time I'd like to make one of those boxes with boards lined up in it for stopping big boolits. I think it's a row of 3/4'' pine boards 1 inch apart and 4 feet deep. Should be able to see what happens as the projectile is slowing down. Water jugs are fun to shoot but it takes so many and you run out them fast. And with a box you could insert a piece of sheet metal in there too.

[44man]

I have never found anything to shoot that will equal an animal. Wood, sticks, paper, water or jello. The jello is funny, animal lungs are mostly air, air will compress and move away from a boolit.
Yes we shot wet paper a lot for fun but what does it tell me? My 420 gr from the .475 will do 37" in wet phone books. My 330 gr .44 does 34". The RD will do 33". A Rem 240 does 11".
A 45-70 Hornady 300 gr did 11" and broke up.
The resistance of wet anything is tremendous and is not a true measurement of any animal on earth.
Water jugs are very hard on a boolit/bullet. Water does not compress so it is like hitting a brick wall.
Even shooting a dead animal is not the same since blood pools and you are facing liquid more.
Air is always missing in testing. If you could see a shadow graph of a WFN with the wave spread wider the a WLN, you would see why tissue is moved away from the boolit. Even a Keith will move all away from the shoulder yet some still say the shoulder cuts, explain how!
This has nothing to do with getting accuracy from a boolit that is supposed to fail, it is terminal damage and a WFN can do less damage. I talk revolvers and I leave rifles and high velocity out of it.
The worst position is when you have a moose or elk on the ground and your rifle is over there against a tree when a griz wants your meat. I want a GUN, not a .357. A gun starts at .44. Things get better as you go up. You have one shot, don't worry about recoil recovery. If your shorts get brown, you won't hit anyway. Eat a lot of pepper.
It takes a real man to stand his ground, It is why there is a guide that knows the animals. He has the gun to save your butt. Any handgun is a last resort. The important thing is power and penetration IF you hit.

[murf205]

Amen to a gun starting at 44. Just ask Mr. Louis Kis, the Montana game warden. IIRC, he had 2 or 3 158gr jacketed bullets flatten out on a big bears head and it was chewing on him big time when he shot the last of 6 rounds he had into the bears neck. He had just let the bear out of a transport trap on the back of his truck when the bear decided to climb up on the top of the trap with Mr Kis. Remember what Col. Charles Askins said, "use enough gun".

[murf205]

So, if I may say so. I am very impressed with the members of this forum. Tons of knowledge and experience . But polite and courteous. I very much appreciate it.
My experience with bears is from a timber beast' s point of view. Not a hunters. Truth be told , I really like the bears that think they are The Boss. When they push, I make it a point to push back HARD. I let them start the fight. I make sure I always finish it. Most of the time by making run for their lives, almost scared to death. Most of the ruminate I kill are just walk In around freezer meat. I don't hunt Dall Sheep or Mt Goats . And I may let a Musk Ox stomp on me rather than harm it. But I Absolutely Love killing predators. A great big huge brown bear that runs from the sight, sound or scent of me, ehh, boring . I could care less about it. But those punks in brown or black fur coats . I just Love taking their life from them!! When you've been hunted by then as much as I have. You can either quit the country . Or turn the tables. When I work someplace, I train the bears to flee from me and mine. And bears are trainable. Just like dogs. You just have to be willing to do what ever is necessary to train them. Far too many nature fakers out in the brush training bears that people should fear bears. That's unnatural. And wrong. The old timers that settled this country had it figured out right. Anyway, that's the way I do er. 20 feet or so is a good distance to kill a brown bear at. Tho my last one was @ 47 measured feet. But, I had my wife with me so I didn't want to push things too far.

I see you love to hunt predators, have you ever tried to call wolves with a game call? I tried it on the Kenai but other than a few bears and owls, I never had any results. I

[44man]

I am going to Lloyd and would rather have a WLN then a WFN for initial damage. Forget accuracy now. I get both to shoot, moot point.
I am not anti energy at all but it has been said. Energy kills but it must be in the right place. Wether deer or larger, energy kills. Deer has a smaller range for it but larger game has larger. I look to dump in a foot but a bear is larger so a boolit that can fail in a deer might be right in larger.
You still have to have a boolit place energy and still penetrate.
To go 3' when the boolit gave it up in 6" does not work either.
I will forever say to shoot animals and see, will beat book reading and funny testing every time.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I don't kill water jugs or wet print. I sat for a couple hours one day watch the charging bear game at the linebaugh seminar. Its a full sized bear target charging you dead on. You stand there knowing well that its going to come so you have that advantage. I sat and watched some of the best handgun shooters in the country shooting that target that cant bite back (including myself) Just the pressure of others watching humbled all of us. If you can shoot a live charging grizzly bear right on the jaw every time. If you can stand there that calm and collective, and must have because you said that that's where you aim on a frontal charge. I will take a step back and take my hat off to you. Then to do it one handed and with a low recoiling gun! Wow!!! I'm in awe of you.:2gunsfiring_v1:

The jaw is the aim point of choice. Didn't say I hit it . But it it the prefect spot to shoot for.
I use 2 hands whenever I can . Naturally. However , if a person's handgun cant be controlled 1handed , What good will it be if the bear gets to you.
I think a guy would be far better off to go spend a bunch of time out in bear country than going to seminars. I doesn't cost too much to drive to Bellingham, get on the ferry and go spend a summer hangin out around alot of bears.
On forums, when the subject of Alaska comes up. I find soo much people telling other people everything they CAN'T do.
I say, if you want to really learn, go do it. Go fishing , rock hounding, gold panning , exploring. Tons of stuff a person can do up here. But, ya gotta get out in the brush to do it. That's how I learned. And most all the people who know . I posted my questions here, in the hopes I'de find someone that knew lots more than I do about the specific things I was querying. I think I have found a good bunch with tons of knowledge. But in this issue I guess I'll have to go try it out myself and report back.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I see you love to hunt predators, have you ever tried to call wolves with a game call? I tried it on the Kenai but other than a few bears and owls, I never had any results. I


Yes . A bit but not a ton. A good friend and timber fallin partner and I were black bear hunting on P.O.W. near Ratz Harbor, Clerance Strait side of The Island. We got into a pack of 16 wolves that were fishing in the Crik as it winds thru the grass flat. It's kind of a long story . But after most of the shooting was done . And the pack had scattered into the timber . They started howling to regroup. My friend howled back with just his hands and voice and called a young Wolf back out in the open. About 350 yards away. He promptly laid down and shot it with his scoped 06. I was shooting my ghost ring sighted 416 Remington, custom 17 Enfield . First time I remember Under estimating range to target.
Another timber cutter friend used a cow horn wolf howler and did good with it , IF ! There were wolves in the area . That's the real challenge with wolf hunting. Packs cover so much country. The challenge is getting within rifle shooting distance . There used to be Lots of wolves on Prince of Wales.
I do know that if theres wolves in the area , a coyote howler will pull them out of the brush. Wolves HATE coyote.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

No guide with me. Just me and my dog, dogs . Have NEVER had a situation where there was time for only 1 shot.

[pmer]

189143189144

Well here is the 48-380V next to the Lee 325 wfn. The 380V is about .090 longer than the parent and has a OAL of 1.645. These are loaded with 25.7/296 which is one more grain than the 1232 FPS load. Groups were getting better and better at this point and almost had a 25 yard one inch group with the iron sights. The 325 is shake n bake powder coated with my white/black epoxothane mix.

I can understand that there may not be a lot of difference between a long flat nose and a wide flat nose on game but what the heck I'll be that guy lol!

Do you see that tiny crimp grove on the Lee 325? Fighting that grove started this whole thing for me.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Great looking boolits. Are you using Hornady or Starline brass ?
So the 325 gr boolit has the same .4" meplat ?
That is some good shooting from my stand point. I can't see the sights well enough To shoot that well.

[pmer]

Yes they are Starline brass, I got the Tee shirt too. They both have the same meplat as far as I tell by looking at them. The drawing shows the 380V to have a .395 meplat. Here is a drawing from the Accurate Molds website. The cylinder in my Bisley Blackhawk still has .150'' room to spare so there could be some boolit jump and the cylinder and it still could turn in emergency. I haven't tried this one handed, might be hard to do. I suppose your DA Super Redhawk has a little more weight. I imagine DA is easier to use under stress and it has one more shot too.

http://accuratemolds.com/img/bullets/detail/48-380V-D.png

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Just for general knowledge, as to my comment concerning one handed use of a bear defense handgun. I personally know or am acquainted with 7 people in just Hoonah that have been under a brown bear . And , I know a few other people that have been bit , swatted and /or chewed on by brown bear. In Southeast Alaska.
If any of them would have had something like a strong loaded . 357, 41, 44 Special or Mag . 45 Colt or 480 . They all would have had them shooting while trying to hold themselves away from the bear/bears with their other hand.
It can and does happen so it's nice to be prepared if possible.
As long as one can cock and shoot or just shoot and keep control of their gun one handed . Precision accuracy isn't a requirement.

[10or45]

I was pondering similar thoughts as Fredj338 on this packable and weight/size issue. This lead me to pick up a 4.2 inch Redhawk in 45 Colt. I wanted a double action, packability, and affordability. The 500 Linebaugh is too much for my current needs. I can run Ruger only loads for the woods with H110 powered 325 grain LFN/WFN at 1100-1300fps in a smaller package. This is just a woods defense gun. If I was a Guide on horseback or handgun hunting I could justify more gun. Now I need to find the right mold. From what I've learned here so far I think a 325 grain with an 80% max meplat LFN LBT 4 cavity NOE or Accurate sounds about right in aluminum.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

10or45; I think that's a wise choice. Much better than a Smith 329 or. Kinda most S&W revolvers imho. Guns like the Mountain Lite ect. Are far better than nothing. But the Ruger is stronger. I packed a 5" Redhawk for a while in 44 Mag. I shot 320 gr LFN CPB Boolits out of it pushed by 20 or 21 gr of 296. It worked to keep me from getting bit one time when the bear was alot closer to me than my 458 was.
My hope with the 480 is more ability as a stand alone gun . That is still one hand controllable by me.

[Lloyd Smale]

doing a penetration test using wet print of wet print and bone will give you a way to compare penetration of bullets but it doesn't mirror live game. It couldn't. Just look at the difference between a deer and an elk or moose. Or the difference between a black, griz or brown bear. To even make it close you would have to use bone and not dry bone from the exact animal you are going to shoot and the bone from the exact place your going to shoot it. Yes I have done lots of penetration testing like that. More because its just fun to see how different bullets hold up. I don't remember the exact year the charging bear was at the seminar. I would guess 2004 but cant swear to it. Ill surely agree with you that the punch bullets are the ultimate penetrators. My buddy Al and I did some of the original penetration testing of kellys bullets for him.
"I don't kill water jugs or wet print"

Is not the Bone Box testing done with wet news print, and with or without the bone??? I never knew about the bear simulation. One thing the Bone Box does demonstrate is that heavy handgun bullets at slow/moderate velocities penetrate real good. The Punch brass handgun bullets penetrate like crazy.

[Lloyd Smale]

You don't learn how to stop charging grizzlys with a handgun or for that matter any gun just because you live in Alaska and are around them. You learn from actually shooting them. Its like the guy that was never in combat telling some vet how he would act under fire. If you haven't been there and done that you don't have a clue and being around a bunch of rag heads doesn't make you ready to go to Afghanistan. Fortunately ive never had to face down a charging bear or for that matter a charging anything. If I did id want the biggest gun that I could put one slug into the vitals with as quickly as possible. In my safe that means my 4 inch 500 linebaugh. A gun that ive put an easy 10k rounds through.

I'm going to hold it in two hands, not because I cant handle the recoil with one but because it about doubles the chance that I'm going to put that first shot where it belongs. Ive shot ALOT of handguns ALOT of big bore handguns. As many as anyone here or anyone you've met. The ONLY handguns id say are a bit of a challenge to hold on to with full power loads and one hand are the 475 and 500 linebaugh max guns. Could I shoot one one handed? Sure but I don't want to. Bottom line one 475 or 500 bullet that will penetrate stem to stern on a bear is a lot better weapon then something like a 357 or 41 that puts 6 into them that might make 6 inches.

It comes down to this in every big bore handgun post. The guys that don't like them or preach a smaller gun is better are the guys that just cant handle something bigger and instead of admitting that try to tear down the guys that can. Any gun is better then a stick but to me using something smaller then a heavy cast bullet (300plus grain) 44 mag handgun to protect myself against a charging 1000lb bear is grounds for being committed. Id no sooner go hunting a brown bear with a 223! Something that in fact would be a lot safer.

Bottom line is I don't have a thing to worry about. Ill never hunt a brown bear or a grizzly bear. the only bear I hunt are blacks and ive shot a bunch of them and for the most part they run the other way when shot. If they do come at you its usually because there confused and ran the wrong way, not because they want to hurt you. You on the other hand could someday run into a situation that isn't good. I hope you at least listen to some of the words of wisdom here and are properly armed and don't buy into that quick draw one handed cowboy show way of shooting. Only time id shoot something one handed is if I could smell its breath. Or the equally stupid train of though that 3 357s are better then one 475. Just look at what guides use for back up rifles. Not to many are using semi auto 243s and count on multiple hits. They use guns like the 458 and 375 because they know that what kills is a big bullet drove deep.
The jaw is the aim point of choice. Didn't say I hit it . But it it the prefect spot to shoot for.
I use 2 hands whenever I can . Naturally. However , if a person's handgun cant be controlled 1handed , What good will it be if the bear gets to you.
I think a guy would be far better off to go spend a bunch of time out in bear country than going to seminars. I doesn't cost too much to drive to Bellingham, get on the ferry and go spend a summer hangin out around alot of bears.
On forums, when the subject of Alaska comes up. I find soo much people telling other people everything they CAN'T do.
I say, if you want to really learn, go do it. Go fishing , rock hounding, gold panning , exploring. Tons of stuff a person can do up here. But, ya gotta get out in the brush to do it. That's how I learned. And most all the people who know . I posted my questions here, in the hopes I'de find someone that knew lots more than I do about the specific things I was querying. I think I have found a good bunch with tons of knowledge. But in this issue I guess I'll have to go try it out myself and report back.

[44man]

Lloyd makes a good point. Just having a gun is not enough. Then shooting a .475 and up with one hand will be a miss, barrel rise and torque is too much so you will shoot very high.
I have had guys here to shoot, one was White House secret service, the other an air marshal. Neither can hold paper at 10 yards. Glocks, etc. A plane would be full of holes and half the passengers shot. Imagine them under stress? To make matters worse were the factory loads and sights not regulated for them. Have to aim at knees to get center mass.

[Lloyd Smale]

Most guys would stuggle to place a bullet accurately using one hand on a target even using a 357. Its why NO police or military training teach one hand shooting anymore. they might touch base on it as a back up if your other hand is injured but that would be the only exception. Even a 22 is shot better two handed. Like I said if it got down to the point the bear was so close I didn't have time to do anything but draw and shoot one handed id be smelling its breath and accuracy muzzle rise and recoil would no longer matter. If I have time to draw and AIM I have time to grip the gun properly with two hands. Same goes if the gun is a j frame or small semiauto and the thing charging is coming on two legs.
Lloyd makes a good point. Just having a gun is not enough. Then shooting a .475 and up with one hand will be a miss, barrel rise and torque is too much so you will shoot very high.
I have had guys here to shoot, one was White House secret service, the other an air marshal. Neither can hold paper at 10 yards. Glocks, etc. A plane would be full of holes and half the passengers shot. Imagine them under stress? To make matters worse were the factory loads and sights not regulated for them. Have to aim at knees to get center mass.

[44man]

I have shot deer with one hand when they were on the wrong side, SRH. But when I shot at one with the .475 I must have cleared his back by 2'. No way to turn in the stand to use both hands. WOW, talk about climb, not strong enough anymore.

[Lloyd Smale]

probably aggravated by the fact that you like the bfrs. Even the bisley is a handful one handed but recoils more straight back then a plow handle gun. Ive noticed the difference more with the 44s because I tend to shoot them more and fool around with them more. My 4 5/8s Blackhawk will allways print higher on a target one handed then the same load out of my 5.5 bisley Both do shoot higher then a good two handed grip though. That and you tend to like long barreled guns and the dwell time in the barrel allows barrel flip to effect the bullet more. When I got my first 4 inch 500 bisley I noticed something strange. No gun I had every played with before had more of a tendency to shoot all bullet weights and load levels so close to the same point of aim. At 25 yards everything from a 1000 fps 400 to a 1300 fps 480 to a 1000 fps 480 and a 1300 fps 400 all shoot within 2 inches of each other a 25 yards. Cool thing with that is both my 500s are built on vaqueros so its sure nice that you don't have to fart around trying to get a good light load and a good heavy load that match the sights. You can about feed it a rock pushed by sand and hit a 2 inch bullseye. My 5.5 500 and 475s weren't that way. When I got my second 4 inch 500 I took it out to see if the same thing applied and it did. so you with heavy loads and a 7.5 inch barrel and the bfr grip frame I can sure see where the 2 foot came from. Luckily for both of us that situation RARELY occurs. I think even me with my short guns if I was forced to shoot left handed I might as well throw a rock if an animal was more then about 15 yards away. Maybe 20 years ago but anymore id just have to pass on a shot that required me to shoot one handed with any handgun at a live breathing target that wasn't trying to eat me.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I have shot deer with one hand when they were on the wrong side, SRH. But when I shot at one with the .475 I must have cleared his back by 2'. No way to turn in the stand to use both hands. WOW, talk about climb, not strong enough anymore.

My point about folks coming up to bear country was to gain experience. Maybe they would meet a friendly resident that would enjoy taking them hunting. Or would want some backup . Back before the internet we did all kinds of stuff that was totally legal . But not "a classic Alaskan Bear hunt.
That stuff can still be done. Here's an example of , the necessity to be able to shoot 1 handed. We have lots of places up here where motorized access is prohibited. So riding a bicycle is a great way to quietly get into a spot . And there are roads. Like the over 800 miles of roads along the Trans Alaska Pipeline. Or hunting in places like Thomas Bay . Or alot of places where its easy to put a Fat Bike in a skiff and go hunt or explore some closed logging road system.
Ya need to be able to steer and stop but you may need to shoot also
Or your hands may be really cold and stiff , or exhausted. Like from running a powersaw , or a pick and shovel all day . Or even hangin onto a fishing rod or pulling shrimp pots. There's a million things to do up here . One of the last things I shot with my last 4 5/8 Blackhawk 45 Colt was a 120 lb halibut. Before we started pulling my friends subsistence skate , I replaced the 325 gr Buffalo Bore bear loads with soft lead 255 gr loads that did about 800 fps. Alot quieter when reaching over the side of the boat with all the noise bouncing off the water right at my feet . Easier to manage also, And still has sufficient power to stun that fish.
Lots of times when you may , and I have, needed a powerful handgun but also needed to be able to use it 1 handed. But generally speaking it was always for very close range shooting.
Of course , I and everyone I know uses 2 hands whenever possible. But, it isn't always possible.
And percentage wise , it is a not the majority of bear problems that are great big bears. However, the most dangerous bears are the really old bears that are starving. They are truly and absolutely deadly. And sometimes they are pretty big.

[pmer]

Naa one handed isn't that bad, it can be a lot faster. Don't leave that skill on the table. I do some strong hand / weak hand up to 44 mag. Start out empty if your skeerd.

I'm just saying because one time I got too close to rattle snake and I had a 1911 on my hip. And quicker than I could think about it that 1911 came out and was making noise till it quit moving. It would've taken a couple more seconds and lots of movement to get a two handed hold and etc. One hand, no time for a site picture, just go.

Holding a flash lite is a common way to end up shooting one handed.

[44man]

Age has a lot to do with it. Once I could crush the bones in your hand, sheared up to 3/4" bolts with a wrench on semi's. Now a revolver is like a 50# barbell held out. I shot all day to win archery shoots with 82# bows.
Things went to pot and it is only a few years.
I used to sight from the bench with my guns and hit the same off hand but that has changed too. I did shoot good with one hand at one time but getting old is hell to pay. I still feel good and it does not hurt to shoot anything but was slapped hard anyway.
I hate to say it but most of you will see later.
But we never give up or quit. I always said they will find my skeleton on a stand or dragging a deer skeleton out.
I still love the big revolvers and BFR's because of accuracy even as ability to reap it is fading. How did I get to 79+? Would I carry a shorter revolver, sure.
But still the .44 is more in control then a .475 or .500 at any age. Neither shoots good from a short gun so a .480 would be better if you want bigger. Barrel and gun weight aids rise but the .475 just has the worst. It is crazy wild.
I don't worry about a following shot since you have to make the first count on a bear or load pepper shot. I don't know if bears like spices and don't want to find out. I have been very close to huge black bears, even with cubs and one that climbed my tree to a foot from my feet that I talked down. Huge boar over 400#. Bow, can't shoot down from sitting. I fear them less then a neighbors dogs. I think a cougar might be the most dangerous animal. Any big cat.
Some animals should not be shot. Why a lion unless a man killer or an elephant? I read where a man saved an elephant and he died of natural causes. A whole herd marched 100 miles to his home and circled it for days to pay tribute. It means they can think, feel and show love. Cats and fox kill for fun. lost 12 chickens to a fox once, he ate one but could not quit. I got him the next day. Cats kill birds that are not eaten and rabbits. I was hunting rabbits with a bow one day in the snow. I found cat tracks and 12 dead pheasants. I seen the cat under a billboard at the road corner. I killed it with an arrow. It had a collar too. I found the cat attacked other hunters. Big, yellow house cat let to run.
The worst was a cat that caught a new baby rabbit and was skinning the poor thing alive. Keep cats in the house or they die.

[pmer]

44 . Wow. Thanks ! . There are a couple things I dont understand tho. I don't see what you mean with the base on that boolit. I agree with the mulit grease grooves. Kinda like a grooved or driving band rifle bullet. Should reduce pressure and hopefully reduce leading. . I've had varmint rifles that couldnt on purpose hit a shotgun shell at 100 until I did a bunch of stuff to them.
The 500 JRH is a cart that has caught my attention in the past and is getting more of my attention now. Iirc the BFR was available in it. I don't know if it still is. What is the meplat diameter of your favorite 475&500 bullets ?
I emailed LBT and asked about max meplat dia. Mr Smith replied and explained to me that once a certain % is passed . The bullet will tumble inside the animal and reduce/stop straight line penetration. So, thats the reason for the 80% rule.
Limping J ; I'm planning on getting Lee dies. My last set of 480/475 L dies were RCBS. They worked fine . But I REALLY like the Lee Factory Crimp die for its ability to keep bullets from jumping their crimp. So I plan on getting Lee to make one for my 480.
Glen.

Sorry Glen, I missed this part that LBT was saying that WFN's can tumble. Was He referring to a short statured WFN like a 45 cal. 265 grain WFN? I had a box of these from Cast Performance and they were pretty stubby looking. I used these on a deer and 280 grain 44 cal. WFN on a few deer and they all worked good. Didn't notice anything that would look like they tumbled. The 280 WFN 44s from a muzzle loader turned the lungs into pink mush.

Maybe its the sectional density of this style of projectile? The only time I seen tumbling personally was from undersized boolits used in a worn out model 92 lever action 38-40 WCF.

[44man]

I never had a WFN tumble. You can get Miss direction that is not tumble, just a turn. Damage on the nose from a bone hit. But that is with any boolit.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Actually, from what I've learned . Long bullets tend to tumble alot more than short bullets.
One reason I'm thinking your 380 gr bullet may be ideal. It's a rear weighted bullet and so should keep the nose forward. Even the 325 gr boolit like is cast from the Lee 325 gr 475 mold may be really great. I think it is seriously worth investigating. If the velocity isn't run up to max but keptaround 1200-1300. That 325 would be , relatively speaking easy to shoot.

One thing I wonder about. Tho I wouldn't want to have to shoot one. Is the guys shooting 700 gr Boolits out of 500 S&Ws. ??????
Anyone know anybody that has shot those. I'm just mentally curious. Not wanting to try one.

[44man]

Actually, from what I've learned . Long bullets tend to tumble alot more than short bullets.
One reason I'm thinking your 380 gr bullet may be ideal. It's a rear weighted bullet and so should keep the nose forward. Even the 325 gr boolit like is cast from the Lee 325 gr 475 mold may be really great. I think it is seriously worth investigating. If the velocity isn't run up to max but keptaround 1200-1300. That 325 would be , relatively speaking easy to shoot.

One thing I wonder about. Tho I wouldn't want to have to shoot one. Is the guys shooting 700 gr Boolits out of 500 S&Ws. ??????
Anyone know anybody that has shot those. I'm just mentally curious. Not wanting to try one.
We tried and they don't work. Pipe dream.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

We're there any threads on them ? I know Hornady selling 500 gr bullets for the 500 Smith. Which is getting up there. I know my friend that had to use his 500 S&W 4" was shooting the 400 gr Sierra and had great preformance on a 8'9"+ brown bear that started its charge at around 32' . The penetration and damage was really quite amazing. 400 gr flat nose soft nose , pushed by 40 gr of H110.
But, that's a different subject.
For the specialized needs of bear fighting at close range I have come to rely on my G20 SF. However its not perfect as the mag can be accidentally ejected and if something pushes on the muzzle it takes the gun out of battery. However its light, holds lots of Boolits and the 220 gr cast boolits at 1200 fps penetrates pretty good. And it can pack its own flashlight. Which in itself can save your life .

[Cold Trigger Finger]

But, having to lay down a field of fire isn't my idea of great bear gun.

[pmer]

Actually, from what I've learned . Long bullets tend to tumble alot more than short bullets.
One reason I'm thinking your 380 gr bullet may be ideal. It's a rear weighted bullet and so should keep the nose forward. Even the 325 gr boolit like is cast from the Lee 325 gr 475 mold may be really great. I think it is seriously worth investigating. If the velocity isn't run up to max but keptaround 1200-1300. That 325 would be , relatively speaking easy to shoot.

One thing I wonder about. Tho I wouldn't want to have to shoot one. Is the guys shooting 700 gr Boolits out of 500 S&Ws. ??????
Anyone know anybody that has shot those. I'm just mentally curious. Not wanting to try one.

Hmmm, okay, long bullets takes me back to slow twist rate for bullet length and or low velocity. Stability of the bullet is a product of velocity and the bullets RPM. I've heard of people in the .300 Black Out crowd shooting deer subsonic with 240 grain bullets and getting them to tumble sometimes.

[BAGTIC]

I have always been satisfied with .625% (5/8 inch). Interestingly while researching the subject of hydrodynamics of projectiles I came across a paper that said that 5/8 is the same conclusion that the military researchers came to when experimenting with projectiles designed for long straight penetration in water. Coincidentally that is the same conclusion they came up with in WW2 when designing a solid shot warhead for anti-submarine rockets design for underwater penetration. More might work at 500 yards, in some guns, but it may not work in all guns or at much greater ranges. Even Veral Smith recommends against extreme meplats as being conducive to poor accuracy at longer ranges. It seems to me that too much meplat would be ill suited to maximum penetration and 'temporary cavity' is not as important as permament cavity and deep penetration.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

All else being equal a lighter boolit will recoil less. As long as penetration and tissue damage is adequate. Back when I started packin a 480. The 410 gr Cast Buffalo Bore ammo was available so that's what I kept in it for bear defense. That was in my pre internet days and truth be told I think those loads would work ok to good. However it always made me wonder if it couldn't have benefited from a wider meplat for my purposes. That's how I got going down this road.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

For maximum penetration I may agree. Like from a rifle. An expanding bullet that gives 3' of penetration and a huge permanent wound cavity. Tends to stop a bear faster than a smaller longer cavity. When I get some money coming in again . I can see I'm going to have to do lots more experimenting.
On large bore rifles, I've never been one for the heavy for caliber bullets. But the rules may be different with revolver bullets.
Also , accuracy at over 25 yards isn't what I'm concerned with. In this application.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

If Jack Carter, Randy Brooks, Gerard Schultz ect wouldn't have pushed the envelope on rifle bullet preformance. We never would have had the awesome bullets we do today.

[pmer]

Age has a lot to do with it. Once I could crush the bones in your hand, sheared up to 3/4" bolts with a wrench on semi's. Now a revolver is like a 50# barbell held out. I shot all day to win archery shoots with 82# bows.
Things went to pot and it is only a few years.
I used to sight from the bench with my guns and hit the same off hand but that has changed too. I did shoot good with one hand at one time but getting old is hell to pay. I still feel good and it does not hurt to shoot anything but was slapped hard anyway.
I hate to say it but most of you will see later.
But we never give up or quit. I always said they will find my skeleton on a stand or dragging a deer skeleton out.
I still love the big revolvers and BFR's because of accuracy even as ability to reap it is fading. How did I get to 79+? Would I carry a shorter revolver, sure.

I'm 52 and I could tell the difference from 30 to 50. I can only imagine how it will be from 50 to 79. Hopefully as the years go by you will tell use how well you do with lighter revolvers; I can hear it already..."I thought you had to have 400 grains at 1400 FPS but you only need 250 grains at 1400 FPS" :kidding:

I'm a little stubborn but I like to read what you say 44Man.

[Lloyd Smale]

cant argue much here except one thing. If you think a 475 or 500 doesn't shoot good out of a short barrel then you haven't shot them out of a short barrel. Both of my 4 inch 500s will shoot 1 inch 50 yard groups (back when I had eyes) My buddy 4 5/8s 475 won the 1000 yard shoot at the linebaugh seminar in the 475 class and too first overall in that competition. My 5.5 inch 475 that boge quinn now owns was the most accurate handgun ive ever shot in any caliber. You sure don't need 6 plus inches of barrel to make a linebaugh work.

I don't know about the smiths because ive never worked with them. A more correct statement might be that not everyone can shoot them accurately. It takes a bit more dedication to master one. Bottom line is anything the 480 can do in a short gun, the 475 can do better. A 4 5/8s 475 (or 480) will do anything a 7.5 inch 480 will do and do it in a package small and light enough to carry in a hip holster where its a lot more accessible and fast to draw then a 7.5 inch rig in a shoulder holster. I personaly wouldn't have a handgun with over a 6 inch barrel again. To me a 7.5 inch scoped handgun is not a lot more challenging to shoot a deer with then a scoped lever gun. Its not a lot handier to carry either.

I'm more of an old school handgun hunter. If it doesn't fit and carry comfortably in a hip holster I don't want it. Might as well have a rifle. The little bit of velocity you gain with one of those trombone tubed guns doesn't buy you a thing in the field. At least not at sane handgun hunting distances. Its the same reason the big smith rounds, the linebaugh max's and even the 454 don't really appeal to me. I agree with most of what you say but to say that the 475 and 500 don't shoot good out of short barrels is either something you didn't express correctly and meant something else or just pure hogwash. By the way ive got a 4 5/8s super Blackhawk that id put up against ANY open sighted long barreled 44 too. Its the guy ive carried most through the years and for good reason. It drives nails with about anything I put in it. If your going to beat it at any distance your going to need a scope or electronic sight to do it.

I'm not bashing the big guns. They have a purpose. My buddy whos the same age as me has a couple super redhawks with scopes. He detests optics on handguns too but his eyes have made it nessisary. Hes shown me one inch 100 yard groups hes shot with the 454 and I personaly shot a 1.5 inch 100 yard group with his 480. Me, when my eyes got so bad that even 50 yard groups are double what they used to be I basically quit handgun hunting. What I do now is carry a rifle and something like a 44 spec or mag in a hip holster some days when I know theres a chance of a 25 yard deer. I shot enough with handguns (short barreled handguns) that I have nothing to prove anymore. Ive probably shot more deer with handguns then anyone hear besides you. But you can keep those hand rifles;)
Age has a lot to do with it. Once I could crush the bones in your hand, sheared up to 3/4" bolts with a wrench on semi's. Now a revolver is like a 50# barbell held out. I shot all day to win archery shoots with 82# bows.
Things went to pot and it is only a few years.
I used to sight from the bench with my guns and hit the same off hand but that has changed too. I did shoot good with one hand at one time but getting old is hell to pay. I still feel good and it does not hurt to shoot anything but was slapped hard anyway.
I hate to say it but most of you will see later.
But we never give up or quit. I always said they will find my skeleton on a stand or dragging a deer skeleton out.
I still love the big revolvers and BFR's because of accuracy even as ability to reap it is fading. How did I get to 79+? Would I carry a shorter revolver, sure.
But still the .44 is more in control then a .475 or .500 at any age. Neither shoots good from a short gun so a .480 would be better if you want bigger. Barrel and gun weight aids rise but the .475 just has the worst. It is crazy wild.
I don't worry about a following shot since you have to make the first count on a bear or load pepper shot. I don't know if bears like spices and don't want to find out. I have been very close to huge black bears, even with cubs and one that climbed my tree to a foot from my feet that I talked down. Huge boar over 400#. Bow, can't shoot down from sitting. I fear them less then a neighbors dogs. I think a cougar might be the most dangerous animal. Any big cat.
Some animals should not be shot. Why a lion unless a man killer or an elephant? I read where a man saved an elephant and he died of natural causes. A whole herd marched 100 miles to his home and circled it for days to pay tribute. It means they can think, feel and show love. Cats and fox kill for fun. lost 12 chickens to a fox once, he ate one but could not quit. I got him the next day. Cats kill birds that are not eaten and rabbits. I was hunting rabbits with a bow one day in the snow. I found cat tracks and 12 dead pheasants. I seen the cat under a billboard at the road corner. I killed it with an arrow. It had a collar too. I found the cat attacked other hunters. Big, yellow house cat let to run.
The worst was a cat that caught a new baby rabbit and was skinning the poor thing alive. Keep cats in the house or they die.

[44man]

I like all guns and dang, wish I could afford a good 1911 or one of the .44 specials. I will always love the .22 but I shoot the .44 mag as cheap. I would never part with my Mark II's but I do have a problem now, shakes. I used to peel a squirrel out of the tree tops with them but a light gun waves a lot. Seems a big, heavy gun damps out some movement now. I still have to search for a rest most times.
As to real heavy boolits, each twist has a limit that is not wide. I never figured length and weight alone except it brings down the velocity to keep pressures in limits. They just can't be shot fast enough. The answer is a faster twist. I work with the drive length of a boolit more then what it weighs yet a faster spin can reduce the velocity needed.
Might be the BFR secret, faster twists. The BFR 45-70 has a 1 in 14" and it shoots about anything. It loves 300 to 420 so far and I don't know at what weight it will start to fail. My BPCR has a 1 in 18" and I never got it right so the hunting rifle in 45-70 with a 1 in 20" will force you to a lighter boolit. Might top out at 300 gr and maybe less. That would be for a longer range with accuracy. But things happen I can't explain. Friend has a Marlin stainless guide gun and it shoots a 405 gr CA load lights out but we never shot far.
Then original Rollers and trap doors love a 500 gr but I don't know the twist. The original shot best with my 317 gr, one ragged hole at 50 yards but too low. The 500 gr Gov't rapine was centered. I used 3031. The 405 with 4198 was way high and shot bad with more recoil against my face with the bad stock form. We all know with BP the old guns like the Sharps shot so far I need the Polaris to get to the target.
It appears a lot were 1 in 18" and the .40 could be 1 in 16" some claim RB twists but that won't work.
We are still having fits with a Marlin 444 with the 1 in 38", doing best with cast while factory loads are worse then buckshot loads. Had one box of Rem loads that shot good enough but Joe bought an MTM box and mixed the loads. Now you need to hold you tongue just right to find a hole!

[Lloyd Smale]

you need a 44 spec!! Right now I own more 44 spec handguns then 44 mag. Only caliber of a handgun that I own more of then 44spec's are the 9mms. For the same reason. there just fun to shoot and like you said with the jacked up 22 lr ammo prices they've replaced the rim fires for knocking over beer cans for me.
I like all guns and dang, wish I could afford a good 1911 or one of the .44 specials. I will always love the .22 but I shoot the .44 mag as cheap. I would never part with my Mark II's but I do have a problem now, shakes. I used to peel a squirrel out of the tree tops with them but a light gun waves a lot. Seems a big, heavy gun damps out some movement now. I still have to search for a rest most times.
As to real heavy boolits, each twist has a limit that is not wide. I never figured length and weight alone except it brings down the velocity to keep pressures in limits. They just can't be shot fast enough. The answer is a faster twist. I work with the drive length of a boolit more then what it weighs yet a faster spin can reduce the velocity needed.
Might be the BFR secret, faster twists. The BFR 45-70 has a 1 in 14" and it shoots about anything. It loves 300 to 420 so far and I don't know at what weight it will start to fail. My BPCR has a 1 in 18" and I never got it right so the hunting rifle in 45-70 with a 1 in 20" will force you to a lighter boolit. Might top out at 300 gr and maybe less. That would be for a longer range with accuracy. But things happen I can't explain. Friend has a Marlin stainless guide gun and it shoots a 405 gr CA load lights out but we never shot far.
Then original Rollers and trap doors love a 500 gr but I don't know the twist. The original shot best with my 317 gr, one ragged hole at 50 yards but too low. The 500 gr Gov't rapine was centered. I used 3031. The 405 with 4198 was way high and shot bad with more recoil against my face with the bad stock form. We all know with BP the old guns like the Sharps shot so far I need the Polaris to get to the target.
It appears a lot were 1 in 18" and the .40 could be 1 in 16" some claim RB twists but that won't work.
We are still having fits with a Marlin 444 with the 1 in 38", doing best with cast while factory loads are worse then buckshot loads. Had one box of Rem loads that shot good enough but Joe bought an MTM box and mixed the loads. Now you need to hold you tongue just right to find a hole!

[44man]

I was looking through a fog so out of focus I could not see sights at all. Got my eyes fixed and now opens are working again. Cataracts were bad, got new lenses and don't need glasses except for small stuff up close. Even that is getting better.
Short barrels will shoot but sight picture must be better. As sights get closer together, a thousandths off is a large amount. My SBH was just right at 10-1/2" so a click on the sight was 1" at 50 meters, 2" at 100, 3" at 150 and 4" at 200. A short barrel was way more so you could not center. One click could take you from under to way over.
If distance between sights is 4" and you want to move an inch, it is .002". Can you see .002" at the gap? Or below or above the rear sight? I don't have sights on my SBH, red dot so I think 11.5" from one to another. That is .006" and if a click is the same, you get 1" at 50 meters. So a 4" barrel click will be 3 times more. One click at 50 is 3", at 100 it's 6", 150 is 9" and 200 is a foot if you gave a perfect alignment.
We can get into velocity and twist of course but you are still handicapped with a sight and fixed sights are a cement weight on your feet in deep water.

[44man]

you need a 44 spec!! Right now I own more 44 spec handguns then 44 mag. Only caliber of a handgun that I own more of then 44spec's are the 9mms. For the same reason. there just fun to shoot and like you said with the jacked up 22 lr ammo prices they've replaced the rim fires for knocking over beer cans for me.
I do but SS stops me. I love the gun. But a light load with the right boolit from a mag does well, just not the short special case. I never got accuracy from shorter cases then the gun is chambered for.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Lloyd; the other day I was looking at the 4 5/8" 5 shot 480 Bisley online. I gotta say, I'm smitten. I know it's not a Bowen or Linebaugh. But it sure is pretty. I had a Bisley Vaquaro in 44 mag that I Really enjoyed packing for a few years. Couldn't hit worth a hoot with it . But I sure liked that gun. I could however hit a bear in a real important spot at 15' . And that's what I needed .
My very first 44 mag was a 12" barreled Virginia Dragoon. I made a strong side hip holster for it and packed it all over Montague and other islands in P.W.S.and pretty much everywhere else I went while on Liberty. Packing a long barreled revolver in a strongly built belt holster has never been a problem for me. Shorter is more convenient but. They all kinda stick out in the way a bit . And, possibly because that 12" was my very first large caliber revolver . I could hit ok with it. I found I could hit better with all my long barreled revolvers I've had than I could with the shorter barreled one's. But, then too. I've never casted a bullet in my life yet . So, compared to alot on here. I haven't shot revolvers much. Lots of times I wish I could have. But needed the ammo I had in case of a bear problem.
But. Those 3 new Ruger 5 shot Bisleys 4 5/8, 6 1/2" 480s and the 6 1/2 " 454 . I think will end up coming home with me in the next year or so. I still have a bunch of 454 and Max loaded 45 Colt ammo that I need to shoot up. And the 45 Colt is a cart that I miss having.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup ive had better luck with reduced loads in 44 mag brass in the mag guns then I have with special brass. But as to a dedicated 44 spec gun. theres just something cool about them and most of them shoot lights out!
I do but SS stops me. I love the gun. But a light load with the right boolit from a mag does well, just not the short special case. I never got accuracy from shorter cases then the gun is chambered for.

[Lloyd Smale]

didn't know they were making the 480 in 4 5/8s! Might have to save my pennys for one of those. Really don't want to fool with another different round right now but I have this certain reamer that might work out in it so I can use the brass I have!! Anyone know if the cylinders are long enough???
Lloyd; the other day I was looking at the 4 5/8" 5 shot 480 Bisley online. I gotta say, I'm smitten. I know it's not a Bowen or Linebaugh. But it sure is pretty. I had a Bisley Vaquaro in 44 mag that I Really enjoyed packing for a few years. Couldn't hit worth a hoot with it . But I sure liked that gun. I could however hit a bear in a real important spot at 15' . And that's what I needed .
My very first 44 mag was a 12" barreled Virginia Dragoon. I made a strong side hip holster for it and packed it all over Montague and other islands in P.W.S.and pretty much everywhere else I went while on Liberty. Packing a long barreled revolver in a strongly built belt holster has never been a problem for me. Shorter is more convenient but. They all kinda stick out in the way a bit . And, possibly because that 12" was my very first large caliber revolver . I could hit ok with it. I found I could hit better with all my long barreled revolvers I've had than I could with the shorter barreled one's. But, then too. I've never casted a bullet in my life yet . So, compared to alot on here. I haven't shot revolvers much. Lots of times I wish I could have. But needed the ammo I had in case of a bear problem.
But. Those 3 new Ruger 5 shot Bisleys 4 5/8, 6 1/2" 480s and the 6 1/2 " 454 . I think will end up coming home with me in the next year or so. I still have a bunch of 454 and Max loaded 45 Colt ammo that I need to shoot up. And the 45 Colt is a cart that I miss having.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I was wondering that myself. The gun does have recessed chambers and a screw into the barrel holding the base pin from jumping its detent. The 4 5/8" was showed at SHOT show. And Lipsey' s will be carrying them iirc. It will be months until I can afford one . But . For around 1k $ . It is similarly , or maybe a little under the price of a BFR . The BFR of course is a 475 L. And they came out with a new grip frame for it .(The BFR)

[DougGuy]

I do but SS stops me. I love the gun. But a light load with the right boolit from a mag does well, just not the short special case. I never got accuracy from shorter cases then the gun is chambered for.

This is precisely why I chambered my New Model Vaquero in 45 Schofield. Ruger gave us the PERFECT 45 platform in between a standard pressure Colt or S&W and a full size Blackhawk, so I picked a case that was perfectly in between the 45 ACP and the 45 Colt for my midrange "tier 2" loads. It will do mouse farts although they hit below the sights, and it got a 250gr LBT OWC to 1200fps shooting directly to the sights and STILL managed to stay just under the 23,000psi 45 ACP+P pressure ceiling the gun is rated for.

It comes down to fitment in the throat. I don't care what caliber, what boolit, a revolver or an autoloader, you GOTS to seat the boolit into the throat if you want accuracy! There is no substitute or workaround for this one!!

[Lloyd Smale]

anyone know if a ruger 480 Blackhawk cylinder is long enough to be reamed to 475 linebaugh?

[44man]

anyone know if a ruger 480 Blackhawk cylinder is long enough to be reamed to 475 linebaugh?
Don't know but have the dimensions of the Freedom at 1.815" and the BFR is 1.850", recessed, so if anyone has one to measure.
I know a .357 Max Ruger had to have the frame opened for a longer cylinder to use the .500 Linebaugh, The Linebaugh is the same length as the JRH. The JRH cylinder is also 1.850" and is recessed.
The .475 round I use is 1.761" OAL. It fits a Freedom. The 400 gr Lee boolit will JUST fit if seated to the very top edge of the crimp groove. No recoil boolit pull allowed at all. I don't have one loaded to measure. I can say the Lee boolit loaded will be right at cylinder length of the Freedom.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Lloyd, and everyone;
I found it , took some searching.
http://www.realguns.com/articles/742.htm

It says the cylinder length is 1.78" long. So, I think that as is , it is not long enough for the 475 Linebaugh.
With 44's oal length , it could work . However as Lloyd used LFN boolits there may not be enough length in the cylinder. If someone was running say a 380 gr WFN style , there probably would be.
For me , keeping it as a 480 will give me everything I can utilize.

[Lloyd Smale]

I'm not really looking at more power. I have a custom marling 94 carbine in 475. Its got the same short oal problem. For the most part it is loaded with a 350 wfn because of it. No big deal as its shoots them well with 16 grains of hs6 and is an open sighted 50 yard gun for me anyway. That load is a fairly mild load that will run around 15-1600 fps out of that 17 inch gun. Proably 480 factory power levels. I just though a little 4 5/8s ruger punched out to 475 that could use the same ammo and brass would be cool. Like I said I already have the reamer.

[Lloyd Smale]

I would have to think that if its chambered in 454 that 475 would work too. Especially with that wfn or the 390 lfn mold I have with two crimp groves. It would no doubt be like a FA and be prone to problems caused by bullets jumping crimp but like I said I would have no need to push any bullet out of this gun at more then 1100 fps anyway.
Lloyd, and everyone;
I found it , took some searching.
http://www.realguns.com/articles/742.htm

It says the cylinder length is 1.78" long. So, I think that as is , it is not long enough for the 475 Linebaugh.
With 44's oal length , it could work . However as Lloyd used LFN boolits there may not be enough length in the cylinder. If someone was running say a 380 gr WFN style , there probably would be.
For me , keeping it as a 480 will give me everything I can utilize.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

WOW, Lloyd, that sounds like an awesome little thumper of a carbine!!! What is the oal of those loaded rounds ?

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I would have to think that if its chambered in 454 that 475 would work too. Especially with that wfn or the 390 lfn mold I have with two crimp groves. It would no doubt be like a FA and be prone to problems caused by bullets jumping crimp but like I said I would have no need to push any bullet out of this gun at more then 1100 fps anyway.

Ya, I would think so. That would be an awesome combo.

[pmer]

The 6.5'' 480 Ruger Bisley in Cold Trigger Fingers, Real Guns link is the one I have. I'm still honey mooning with it over the accuracy of that latter load.

Is there any standard or nomenclature that makes up the WFN, WLN, LFN, WLFN's? Do the names belong to LBT? Something like a percentage of nose size over nose length maybe?

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Perhaps in Veral Smith's book . Jacketed Preformance with Cast Bullets.
I see the nomenclature used . But don't know the exact origins of it.

[Lloyd Smale]

yes I believe they are names the veral coined. There used genericly anymore kind of like guys call about any swc a keith.
The 6.5'' 480 Ruger Bisley in Cold Trigger Fingers, Real Guns link is the one I have. I'm still honey mooning with it over the accuracy of that latter load.

Is there any standard or nomenclature that makes up the WFN, WLN, LFN, WLFN's? Do the names belong to LBT? Something like a percentage of nose size over nose length maybe?

[Lloyd Smale]

the wfn is 1.760 and the lfn crimped to the deap grove is 1.780 and is the absolute limit for reliably running that gun. Rob Applegate built it for me and said it was something hed never do again. Getting it to run and feed was a job. If you know Rob or remember back when he made molds youd know that he is a perfectionist. So much so he was inducted into the gunmakers guild. This isn't a fancy gun. Looks just like a 44 mag with a slightly heavier 17 inch barrel but it is a one of a kind.

[44man]

It is used all the time but I refer to a boolit as a Keith style or an LBT style.
The molds I made are LBT styles but are not exact to Veral's. My WLN has a different ogive to match my forcing cone and has a longer nose. My WFN boolits also differ with the ogive, and grease grooves.
Long ago I shot the 429421 and the Thompson designed 358156HP with good accuracy but changes over the years made it so I can't shoot any Keith style. Near impossible in the larger calibers. Keith missed the boat with the shoulder for paper and the meplat for game. But target shooting back then was HUGE and a round hole was wanted to measure. The shoulder does not touch meat in an animal at all. It can wipe off in the forcing cone instead of clocking the cylinder. The gun must be perfect for all chambers.
MY WFN runs from 80% meplats to 83% for one boolit, friend said one was an ALMOST WFN but I don't care. The point I make is I shot a 2-1/2" group at 500 yards with mine so call it what you want. I have been to 1/2" at 100 so many times I lost count.
It is fit, velocity and spin the twist needs.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Lloyd; that sounds like a Great carbine. That would make a great moose gun ! What velocity/boolit weight do you get from it ? What gun is it built on ?

[murf205]

[/b]

This is precisely why I chambered my New Model Vaquero in 45 Schofield. Ruger gave us the PERFECT 45 platform in between a standard pressure Colt or S&W and a full size Blackhawk, so I picked a case that was perfectly in between the 45 ACP and the 45 Colt for my midrange "tier 2" loads. It will do mouse farts although they hit below the sights, and it got a 250gr LBT OWC to 1200fps shooting directly to the sights and STILL managed to stay just under the 23,000psi 45 ACP+P pressure ceiling the gun is rated for.

It comes down to fitment in the throat. I don't care what caliber, what boolit, a revolver or an autoloader, you GOTS to seat the boolit into the throat if you want accuracy! There is no substitute or workaround for this one!!

AND...I firmly believe that this is the reason that heavy for caliber boolits tend to shoot well from most revolvers. My 2 cents.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j464/gumboot4581/IMG_20170307_125628.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/gumboot4581/media/IMG_20170307_125628.jpg.html)

Just t show that I actually do have a 480 SRH.
I ressurected an old phone and was able to upload a couple pics with it.
Glen.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j464/gumboot4581/IMG_20170307_125732.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/gumboot4581/media/IMG_20170307_125732.jpg.html)


http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j464/gumboot4581/IMG_20170307_125756.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/gumboot4581/media/IMG_20170307_125756.jpg.html)

[Lloyd Smale]

Its a marlin 94 with a rebored and shortened 444 marlin barrel. The load I shoot the most is a ballistic cast 360 wfn at 1600 fps. It made short work of two buffalo but to be honest one was shot at 30 at the base of the skull. a 357 would have probably killed that one. the other load I shoot out of it is a group buy 380lfngc with 3 crimp groves. That bullet I push to the same speed. I haven't killed a single thing with that bullet though. Rifles been sitting in the cabinet collecting dust for a few years. Maybe ill take it out deer hunting next year.
Lloyd; that sounds like a Great carbine. That would make a great moose gun ! What velocity/boolit weight do you get from it ? What gun is it built on ?

[44man]

you GOTS to seat the boolit into the throat if you want accuracy! There is no substitute or workaround for this one!!
OK explain this.189984 1-5/16" at 200 yards. I don't have any boolits that actually seat a band into the throats. That boolit matches the forcing cone angle close. It is under size to the throats too, .430-.431" in .4324" throats.
I screwed up cutting the cherry and still have a hard time for diameters at the end. Yet it shoots so I will go with cylinder clock and what happens at the cone. How I wish it was .432".

[44man]

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j464/gumboot4581/IMG_20170307_125628.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/gumboot4581/media/IMG_20170307_125628.jpg.html)

Just t show that I actually do have a 480 SRH.
I ressurected an old phone and was able to upload a couple pics with it.
Glen.
One of the best DA's ever made. I had the .44 and shot pop cans at 200 yards but a friend talked me out of it so I could get my first BFR. I would never sell my old SBH IHMSA gun. It is a friend I understand after all.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

A 380 gr boolit @ 1600 fps . Wow ! I'de fight a brown bear with that.
44 Man, I had one in 44 Mag. My first SRH. It was very easy shooting and I could shoot it as good as any handgun I've ever had . And better than almost all of them. I had an 8 3/8" 629 that I could shoot pretty good . But not better . And the 629 had a good deal of barrel torque when fired.

[44man]

A 380 gr boolit @ 1600 fps . Wow ! I'de fight a brown bear with that.
44 Man, I had one in 44 Mag. My first SRH. It was very easy shooting and I could shoot it as good as any handgun I've ever had . And better than almost all of them. I had an 8 3/8" 629 that I could shoot pretty good . But not better . And the 629 had a good deal of barrel torque when fired.
Actually a 330 gr at around 1300 fps. It will NOT shoot slower. I use 21 gr of 296 and a Fed 100 primer.

[44man]

I would not shoot my boolit from a S&W though. Too heavy.

[pmer]

http://www.gunblast.com/Puma480.htm

Here is a factory 480 lever action but I think they quit making these. They used to be on Gun Broker.

[44man]

http://www.gunblast.com/Puma480.htm

Here is a factory 480 lever action but I think they quit making these. They used to be on Gun Broker.
Darn, I like it. That safety is crazy though. Lawyer junk.

[pmer]

Yeah I had a 45 Colt Rossi with that safety and it basically stayed out of the way when left off. My Marlin 45-70 with a cross bolt safety is more trouble because it seems to get bumped to On easier. But the 45 Colt Rossi had no trouble getting 300 grains to 1600 FPS. I got a nice 11 pointer with that load, it showed up behind me and I had to freeze with my head cranked all the way to right because he saw me up in the tree. He finally walked by next to my tree and it worked out my way.

[44man]

Joe comes to shoot all the time. I have fun with him. He either forgets to chamber or take the safety off. I count, "That's one deer miss" and never get less then 4 or 5. In the few years I have known him he lost at least 50 deer.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

:smile: You must have lots of deer where you hunt.
My very first rifle was an Ithaca lever action , single shot 22. It had the fake under barrel. And was a Martini falling block style receiver.
Cocking the hammer was the most natural thing in the world. Beins I grew up in Maine, lever action Winchesters and Marlins were kinda the norm. When those 2 outfits started putting safety's on their lever guns I was totally disgusted. I tried getting used to one on the Marlin Guide Gun I had , and just couldn't. That was one of the big reasons it went down the road. A Winchester 88 and a Savage 99 need a safety lever . No other lever guns do .IMO.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

On another forum , a guy posted a question about the suitability of a lever action rifle for trophy big game hunting in Alaska . I replied that since Most big game animals are shot at 150 yards away or less . A lever gun is just fine. The single biggest factor is being able to hit what you need to. I'm a bolt action , stainless Ruger M 77 crf guy. They are the toughest rifles I've ever seen, owned or used.
But if a guy is a lever guy , that shouldn't diminish his chances one iota . Just need to be able to hit well with it.

[pmer]

A mauser style controlled round feed is nice. I tried cycling my Marlin on its side or upside down and it had trouble chambering.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Ya, sometimes some of them do . Thats really not the end of the world most of the time. As long as it chambers in the normal positions. I've never had a situation where I was running and jumping and turning somersaults while shooting a bear. Tho I know some guys that have. Havin a foot race with a bear. Running and reloading their 243 and 270 deer rifles. More crazy crsp than u can imagine. How they stay alive I have No idea !!
Only 1 time have I ever done the amount of damage to a deer with my 416s or 458s that the average " deer rifle cartridge" does most of the time.

[starmac]

Cold trigger finger, just curious are you still logging in SE?

[birddog]

Hhmmmm thinking the model 71 Winchester, 348 w/235 gr cast would be fun to work with up there!!!!
Charlie

[starmac]

Hhmmmm thinking the model 71 Winchester, 348 w/235 gr cast would be fun to work with up there!!!!
Charlie

That is where the 50 Alaskan got it's start. lol

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Cold trigger finger, just curious are you still logging in SE?
No, our timber industry went belly up. So I got into banging nails. Then highway construction . Then moved to the Interior when I started working construction on The Slope.
Now I'm getting going on operating and driving full time. Up here. Sure do miss turning ancient boreal forests into logs and clearcuts tho.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

That is where the 50 Alaskan got it's start. lol

IMO the 348 is best served with a 250 gr bullet @ 2300 fps. And a model 71 is a perfect rifle when its turned into one of the 450s . 450 Alaskan , 450 Fuller or 450/348 Ackley Improved. . My favourite is the 450/348 A.I. as it pushes a 400 gr bullet @ 2200 fps with less pressure than the 450 Ak can.
Harold Johnson made the 50 Ak. Because he got an old Ma Duce barrel that had the throat fried, spent some quality time on his lathe with it and came up with a neat barrel. He screwed it onto an 86 Winchester and cut a bunch of truncated cone bullets . Then he started killing bear with it.
Personally , I think the 450s kill bears just as fast and well as the 50 Ak does.

[10or45]

That 480 is awesome. I like the lower pressure and controllability of it while sending a larger, heavier slug than 454. If I was in Alaska that would be on my #1 list to find.
10or45; I think that's a wise choice. Much better than a Smith 329 or. Kinda most S&W revolvers imho. Guns like the Mountain Lite ect. Are far better than nothing. But the Ruger is stronger. I packed a 5" Redhawk for a while in 44 Mag. I shot 320 gr LFN CPB Boolits out of it pushed by 20 or 21 gr of 296. It worked to keep me from getting bit one time when the bear was alot closer to me than my 458 was.
My hope with the 480 is more ability as a stand alone gun . That is still one hand controllable by me.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Hopefully I'll be trying some Accurate Mold, 380 V boolits soon. And a friend got a 5 shot Bisley 6 1/2" a couple weeks ago. The factory Ruger one. Just like Pmer's . My, what a Sweet gun it is.

[44man]

:smile: You must have lots of deer where you hunt."Quote."
No, I just have fun with him at the bench. For every CLICK, I call out a missed deer! :bigsmyl2:

[Cold Trigger Finger]

:p
Thats good. Hopefully he doesn't do that stuff on stand .

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Boolits from Pmer got here today. Beautiful looking boolits ! Gonna get some loaded in the morning and check them for accuracy. And velocity.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j464/gumboot4581/IMG_20170417_165334.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/gumboot4581/media/IMG_20170417_165334.jpg.html)

[44man]

That is a good boolit.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

That is a good boolit.

They load up nicely too. Starting load of 19 gr of Accurate #9.
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j464/gumboot4581/IMG_20170418_183641.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/gumboot4581/media/IMG_20170418_183641.jpg.html)
So far with this load I got 10" of straight penetration in solid green poplar firewood. I could reload this boolit and shoot it again. Not that poplar is a Hard wood or anything . but with over 83% meplat diameter. The boolit stopped nose forward.

[44man]

Most of you have read my experience with a WFN driven too fast with a hard boolit. At least I hope you think about it. I found the WFN will push tissue out of the way in a secondary wound channel that will collapse from the pressure wave off the nose. A beautiful hole punch. I found no difference between a WLN and WFN and alloy or expansion of the nose counts more. The WLN can kill deer faster at the proper velocity.
I lost deer with no blood trails with a WLN and went to a WFN, 45-70 BFR and it was worse. TOO fast for the alloy. I softened and blew meat that circles Saturn.
My .500 JRH was sad with an 80% meplat, deer going 100-120 yards with no blood to track. I cast a softer nose and got this.193582
Fellas, a flat point alone is not the answer. But animal size can be different too. I might want harder for a very large and tough animal but I only have deer.
In a large animal the boolit will slow and the wave reduced so more is destroyed inside. I can't tell you what to use for other then deer. You must determine yourself. At least we can tailor a cast to do what is needed.

[pmer]

They load up nicely too. Starting load of 19 gr of Accurate #9.
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j464/gumboot4581/IMG_20170418_183641.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/gumboot4581/media/IMG_20170418_183641.jpg.html)
So far with this load I got 10" of straight penetration in solid green poplar firewood. I could reload this boolit and shoot it again. Not that poplar is a Hard wood or anything . but with over 83% meplat diameter. The boolit stopped nose forward.

They look good, I'm surprised the nose looks that good on the fired boolit. I smash tested a couple and they flattened good. They are water dropped COWW with a little Rotometals Super Hard added. I don't remember the BHN right now but they were harder than what I usually cast.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

On deer , on some shots . The hard cast may not be the greatest bullet for fast stops . However one of these thru the pump will definitely kill them. The one deer I shot with my one of my 480s ran maybe 20 yards and piled up. And that was with the 410 gr boolit @1200 fps .
It doesn't worry me as I often get the exact same results using 416s and 458s and 375s . And yet the 416 and 458 will knock a brown bear down and dead on the same shot.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

It could be that all my imaginings about meplat diameter is just a mental exercise. But on some points I don't think it is.
A friend here has a mold for his 500 Linebaugh that drops a 450 ish gr semi wadcutter. He calls it a Keith style . I'm not exactly sure it is a Keith style . It has a .344 meplat. I absolutely fail to see how that boolit can transmit as much shock as Phil's 380V .476 boolit that has a .396" meplat. It may penetrate deeper. And that would probably be good . But often times I don't need 5' of penetration.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j464/gumboot4581/IMG_20170419_103723.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/gumboot4581/media/IMG_20170419_103723.jpg.html)

[Cold Trigger Finger]

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j464/gumboot4581/IMG_20170419_103712.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/gumboot4581/media/IMG_20170419_103712.jpg.html)

My friend has these going around 1250-1300 fps . So its going to be probably a flip of a coin as to which one provides a faster stop. So, the next issue is accuracy. I can't comment on that yet. But hope to have more data today from my own shooting.
Incidentally, the reason I went with Accurate #9 powder to try on this is I had a pound of it. Where as I only have a couple ounces of H110.

[pmer]

I just checked the hardness of the boolits that CTF has and those 380V's are a BHN of 22. Incidentally I had a box of Cast Performance WLNGC 45 cal. and they were at Lyman #2. I wonder if the CP's lost their heat treat?

To be honest I have trouble with 44mans hole punch theory too. On page 9 his pic of the deer looks like it hit spine and blew bone fragments as shrapnel. With a hard flat nose and no bone being hit the exit will be at least the size of the boolit. I know what he'll say but we're talking 480R not 475L. I've lost game that I thought was hit good too.

[44man]

I just checked the hardness of the boolits that CTF has and those 380V's are a BHN of 22. Incidentally I had a box of Cast Performance WLNGC 45 cal. and they were at Lyman #2. I wonder if the CP's lost their heat treat?

To be honest I have trouble with 44mans hole punch theory too. On page 9 his pic of the deer looks like it hit spine and blew bone fragments as shrapnel. With a hard flat nose and no bone being hit the exit will be at least the size of the boolit. I know what he'll say but we're talking 480R not 475L. I've lost game that I thought was hit good too.
That was the entrance on the shoulder. Deer was walking fast and I was leading but she stopped at trigger break.
I have a hard time with turning bone into projectiles too. Never seen it. I never found bone past where it was hit. I do a necropsy on every deer and I also back track it to impact point.193653This a heart with a hard boolit from the .475. I expect the .480 to do the same.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

That is perfect performance IMO. with a soft nose boolit the nose expands/obturates as it encounters resistance in an animal. However , there is no guarantee it will expand evenly . So while it may get a huge expanded front section it will also get a much shorter length of penetration. And, there is no guarantee that the nose will expand evenly. With a tough boolit that maintains its shape and has a very wide meplat . It makes sense that it would be something of the best of both worlds. I didn't get to do any shooting yesterday as it is my rehabilitation firewood season right now and was out in the woods. Knees are healed up enough to start getting back in shape and the ground hasn't thawed out so its not a muddy mess. Nice and warm in the afternoons but the morning low temps in the teens to low 20s. However. Today is a shooting day.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

And a PERFECT shot .
I think everyone that has hunted for any amount of time has lost game that they thot they hit well. Hopefully not too much of it. And for myself , it really bothers me when it has happened. If when deer hunting I didn't have to be concerned with brown bear I would prolly shoot the Barnes 275 gr XPB bullet @ 1400 fps or so. But, as I do have the potential for a bear encounter . I use bear boolits and hope they work on deer. So far they have. Very well.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j464/gumboot4581/IMG_20170420_190416.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/gumboot4581/media/IMG_20170420_190416.jpg.html)
Got to go shooting with a friend this evening with his 500 Linebaugh. Built be John Linebaugh, color case by Doug Turnbull and Dall Sheep grips by Clerance Catledge. What a lovely revolver.
I'm going to go up 1 grain on my 380 V loads . The light was all wrong for chronographing this evening. But, at 25 yards the bullets were hitting where I was trying to put them .

[Cold Trigger Finger]

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j464/gumboot4581/IMG_20170420_190407.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/gumboot4581/media/IMG_20170420_190407.jpg.html)

[Cold Trigger Finger]

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j464/gumboot4581/IMG_20170420_190407.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/gumboot4581/media/IMG_20170420_190407.jpg.html)

[44man]

Beautiful guns. I have shot a Linebaugh and even made a mold for it, leaves no dust for sure. I passed because it is too custom, brass and dies too. I opted for the JRH since everything is easier to get.
Then the SRH is as good as you can get. I had one in .44 until a friend talked me out of it so I could buy a BFR in .475, accurate as all get out and I took a pile of deer with the SRH. Another friend has one and shot at a deer in the field over 150 yards, deer did not know it was shot at, being an old IHMSA shooter he adjusted and took the spine on the next shot. I wanted one in .480 but they were like hens teeth back then. The BFR was so good I have 3 of them now but had to part with more guns. As much as I would like to have a Linebaugh or Huntington gun, it is not to be, let alone Turnbull magic.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

My friend was a Sloper with a fairly high dollar job so he was able to afford it at the time. His general taste in firearms is just good working guns. The load we were shooting in it was a Trail Boss load with a 450 gr boolit.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I have a Long way to go to get where y'all are as far as accurate shooting of a revolver. Or any handgun for that matter. I think I need a smaller revolver to practice more with. Or that 325 gr Lee mold with Trail Boss. With a velocity in the 800 fps range it would be very easy shooting. At the moment I can reliably hit a paper plate at 50 yards . But, I would like to be able to do that much farther away.
The Accurate #9 and Pmer's recipy and lube are very clean burning . no signs of leading in the barrel.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I wonder how Unique would work for low velocity loads ?

[44man]

The larger calibers have not taken to Unique but HS-6 can be very accurate with a reduced recoil.
I still will not shoot less then my full 296 loads. I shoot my deer loads all year.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I just got back from the range a little bit ago. Chronographed some ammo.
The 325 gr factory XTP load is going 1478 fps and the 380V with 20 gr of Accurate #9 is going 1251 fps average. I will go up to book Max of 20.5 gr and see how I like it. With H110 , Win 296 or Lil Gun I can get around 1450 fps. But, I'm not too sure I want to !!

[Cold Trigger Finger]

The larger calibers have not taken to Unique but HS-6 can be very accurate with a reduced recoil.
I still will not shoot less then my full 296 loads. I shoot my deer loads all year.

Thank you 44 ! . I think I'll look for some on my next trip to the city. And maybe some Trail Boss.

[pmer]

That was the entrance on the shoulder. Deer was walking fast and I was leading but she stopped at trigger break.
I have a hard time with turning bone into projectiles too. Never seen it. I never found bone past where it was hit. I do a necropsy on every deer and I also back track it to impact point.193653This a heart with a hard boolit from the .475. I expect the .480 to do the same.

Wow that was entrance on the other picture! Sheesh looks like it exploded back towards the shooter. I suppose it still passed through? I read a little about softening the nose or even pouring hard lead on top of a soft nose but haven't tried it.

[44man]

No stopping the boolit. It is 440 gr. I only made half the nose softer but not pure. I used 3# of pure with 1# of WW.

[pmer]

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j464/gumboot4581/IMG_20170420_190416.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/gumboot4581/media/IMG_20170420_190416.jpg.html)
Got to go shooting with a friend this evening with his 500 Linebaugh. Built be John Linebaugh, color case by Doug Turnbull and Dall Sheep grips by Clerance Catledge. What a lovely revolver.
I'm going to go up 1 grain on my 380 V loads . The light was all wrong for chronographing this evening. But, at 25 yards the bullets were hitting where I was trying to put them .

Cold Trigger, did you shoot his .500, I bet its a pretty smooth shooting revolver. Looks like your .480 is a six shot, were some of the SRHs 5 shots? So far I don't have any sort of bug to buy big custom hand gun but on the other hand I didn't think I would want anything bigger than a .45 Colt with Ruger loads either. More than once though I thought about finding a BFR in .50 AE and converting to the .500 JRH but for now the .480 Ruger fills the bill.

25.7/296 with the 380V in the Bis-hawk does have some snap to it as far as recoil goes. Its the most I ever fired from a revolver. The 24.7/296 was the 1232 FPS load. And you're getting 1250 FPS with AA#9. So some load data is emerging for this boolit and that's good. Internal case capacity matches the Lee 325, that should be a usable reference. And I've seen other load data for 380 ish grain loads at 1.645 OAL on line too. I'll have to chorny the 25.7/296 and report back.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I just came in from shooting the 48-380V with 24.7/296 and had the shooting Chrony with. 6.5'' Bishawk 480 Ruger averaged 1232 FPS with a extreme spread 70 FPS for 15 shots. The brass came out easy too.

20.5/2400 with Lee 325 grains shot a average of 1241 FPS with a ES 57 but only had 5 shots of these left. Out of loaded ammo for the 480 now.

There, I found it . :-) . I knew you had listed some chrono data but couldn't remember it.

One side benefit of shooting these large calibre revolver's. They really put other handguns recoil into perspective. As I've only been shooting my 10 mm Auto for a few years . I was starting to get a little bothered by its recoil. Yesterday I shot it some and it felt 22 ish compared to factory 325 gr XTP s @ 1478 fps avg. Or the 380V @ 1250 fps.

[pmer]

So here is what the Shooting Chrony shows for the 25.7/296 load. 6.5'' barreled 5 shot Bisley Blackhawk and a magnum primer.

Non coated 48-380V Hornaday gas check and Tac-1 lube, 5 shots

Low 1291, Hi 1345, Av 1315, ES 54.5 Sd 20

Coated shake n bake HF white (they didn't look too good) and checked. 10 shots

Low 1318, Hi 1359, Av 1337, ES 48, Sd 12

Shot some more for 25 rounds and had no sticky cases and most of them had carbon on them. 25 yards standing and was ending up with a group about 2'' wide and 4'' tall plus a couple fliers. I was fighting the flinch monster pretty quick. The coated boolit does seem to go a little faster.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Sounds real good ! . I have thot about tumbling some in Hexagonal Boron Nitride . I do that with all my 6.5 and other rifle bullets. I gain some speed but mainly keep the temperature of the throat and barrel down. I used to tumble everything in molybdenum dysulfide powder. But had typical cold bore flyers . With HBN there are no cold bore flyers.

And yes I got to shoot the 500 a bunch.
It is really quite something . But, I have to say that I like the 6 1/2" 5 shot Bisley more. And I kinda think that the 4 5/8" 5 shot 480 will have me totally smitten . I prefer factory guns . Just a lot less hassle for me. I will admit the BFR in 500 JRH IS very appealing to me . But , in all honesty if I can get so I can hit well with these 480s that is probably as big as I will go. If I can't get it done with a 380 gr boolit @ 1300 fps or there about. I'm probably not gonna get it done with a handgun. I need to get an optic on my SRH so I can get the game taking accuracy that I need. I'm glad to hear of 44's success with the Ultra Dot optics.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I found out something today. By taking several days off shooting. My shooting improved ! I was trying out more hand loads today. 20.5 gr Accurate #9 with the 380V . I actually stacked 2 bullets on top of each other at 7 paces. For me that is very good. Also recovered some boolits. Shooting into solid poplar. I'm getting 12+" of penetration and the boolits are stopping nose forward. I know solid wood isn't realistic as far as penetration in animals goes. But. Where I got 10" with the starting load of 19 gr. I am getting over 12" with the 20.5 gr load . same gun , same boolit.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j464/gumboot4581/IMG_20170426_104601.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/gumboot4581/media/IMG_20170426_104601.jpg.html)The 1250 fps load penetration

[Cold Trigger Finger]

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j464/gumboot4581/IMG_20170426_104958.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/gumboot4581/media/IMG_20170426_104958.jpg.html)Same boolit with 20.5 gr #9 . Should be going 1300 fps . I haven't chronyed it yet .

[Cold Trigger Finger]

The 1250 fps load is the 20 gr #9 .

[44man]

The 1250 fps load is the 20 gr #9 .
Plenty good enough. Velocity not as important as weight for penetration. My .45 Colt with a 335 gr LBT shot through a 16" tree and cut a 1" grape vine in half. Just 1160 fps.
My .475 with a 420 gr has gone through seasoned oak of 16", end to end at 1329 fps. Also 37" of soaked phone books.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Speaking of 45 Colt. I have a 5 1/2" Bisley Blackhawk SS Convertible. 45 Colt/45ACP. On the way. . It will mostly live with the ACP cylinder in it. I need to learn how to shoot well again. Without dealing with the heavy recoil. And, it will be cheap shooting. A while with it and I should be ready for the 5 shot Bisley's . 480 and 454 .
With it being a convertible I will have only 1 Colt load . Something like a 335 gr WFN @ 1200-1300 fps. Years ago I had a Super Blackhawk SS 5 1/2" 44 mag. I liked it but wanted to Bisleyfy it . I really like the Ruger Bisley. I would say it was my favorite handgun. And the G20 SF Gen 3.