Looking for opinions on this old relic

[BPJONES]

Good day everyone. I am looking for opinions on an old relic that I have come in contact with. I don't have the gun in hand yet, just some pics. I am curious/trying to figure out what exactly this gun may have been. My first question is, what are the opinions, from the pics, as to if these tacks are old or have been added at some point to an old gun as a fakery. The tack pattern is the same on both sides. Next question is, what exactly overall might this have been. If you look at the one pic at the front of the lock,, you can see that it appears this is a different lock on the gun. The wood in front of the lock looks like a longer lockplate was originally on the gun. You can also see that the breech plug tang is sticking up and points straight back. Was this gun converted to percussion by installing a different lockplate and possibly barrel, or perhaps maybe a different breech plug was installed at some point. Either way, the lockplate and tang have been on the gun a long time. The barrel is octagon going to round and is smoothbore. It is also marked "Minories London " on the barrel. So from the pics, I am looking for opinions on what this maybe once was/is. I won't have the gun in hand for a week. I hope to find some kind of a hammer and then place the gun on the wall.http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j470/picadilly1/trade%20smooth%20bore/8nvGQx3_zpsucujxwgm.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/picadilly1/media/trade%20smooth%20bore/8nvGQx3_zpsucujxwgm.jpg.html)http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j470/picadilly1/trade%20smooth%20bore/xyrwD2V_zpsn7lumsjo.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/picadilly1/media/trade%20smooth%20bore/xyrwD2V_zpsn7lumsjo.jpg.html)http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j470/picadilly1/trade%20smooth%20bore/85x7107_zpsorpwuqql.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/picadilly1/media/trade%20smooth%20bore/85x7107_zpsorpwuqql.jpg.html)http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j470/picadilly1/trade%20smooth%20bore/F85z67B_zpsjhyyejnp.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/picadilly1/media/trade%20smooth%20bore/F85z67B_zpsjhyyejnp.jpg.html)

[pietro]

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It looks to me like a British flintlock's rifle lock was replaced with a percussion lock about a million years ago, the vent (hole) upgraded with a percussion drum.

Wilson/William Minories made long & hand guns in London, ca. 1760-70

William Minories was made free of the Gunmakers' Company in 1754 and took livery in 1778.

He became partner with his father Richard (1) in 1756 and continued to use his mark after his death in 1766

This is most likely the what the original lock looked like (a Minories pistol):



http://www.thomasdelmar.com/Catalogues/as270612/lot0547-0.jpg


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[waksupi]

I can't see them well on this tablet. However, if a tack is missing, or you can pull one to look at old tacks would have a square shank. Round shank is 20th century.

[BPJONES]

I'll look at the tacks when I have it in my possession.
I didn't attribute the word Minories to a specific maker. I was attributing it to an area/district of London near the Tower of London. The Minories were noted back in the day as a blacksmithing/gun making center. The Minories, in fact, is where James Purdey got his start.
But, perhaps Minories is referring to William Minories, the maker. Do you think this gun is that old, that being the mid to late 1700's? I thought maybe around 1820 and then converted to percussion at some point but it's all speculation on my part.

[frkelly74]

It certainly doesn't look fake to me from here.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I had an American colleague named Staten once, and thought his immigrant ancestor might have needed to think of a name in a hurry. "Minories" could only have come the same way - if indeed it wasn't due to someone miscopying the details of someone named Wilson or William (also a surname) whose business was in the Minories. Before it was a street it was a parish around the Abbey of the Monoresses, and inheriting the surname from a Minoresse is double improbable, as they were female, and nuns.

I have an account by Deneys Reitz, the former Boer guerrilla who became a very popular battalion commander in the Royal Scots Fusiliers in the First World War, of watching German bombers through binoculars he had had repaired in the Minories. By that time it was more an instrument-making and nautical chandlery street than a gunmaking one. Of course the Belgians, and others, sometimes faked inscriptions on their guns. You might find proofmarks below the wood line, where they have been better protected from the powder gases.

Yes, it looks like a conversion from flintlock. It could have been made up from parts, but if the tang is the right size and there isn't any carving of its recess which looks more recent than the rest, it could have been accidentally bent. The decoration is of the kind known as Indian tacking - your kind of Indians, not ours. I suspect that there are now more Indian tacked guns than there were Indians, just like more British cap and ball revolvers are cased than I seem to remember. But this gun obviously hasn't been faked up in other ways, so I am sure it is genuine if you don't count trademark infringement long ago. It wouldn't be worth restoration beyond interesting domestic décor, and yet it has a bit of history behind it.

[BPJONES]

No, other than looking for a hammer of some kind I will not restore this gun. I think it's history is unique as it is, especially if indeed ended up as an Indian trade rifle. I'll know better once it is in hand, but I'm thinking at this point it is genuine. There is a very primitive engraving at the rear of the lock which is hard to make out in the pics. I don't know if it is of an animal or a bird or what at this point.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

No, other than looking for a hammer of some kind I will not restore this gun. I think it's history is unique as it is, especially if indeed ended up as an Indian trade rifle. I'll know better once it is in hand, but I'm thinking at this point it is genuine. There is a very primitive engraving at the rear of the lock which is hard to make out in the pics. I don't know if it is of an animal or a bird or what at this point.

If the lock is a British ex-military one or an early copy, which wasn't uncommon, it could be a crown. You will find plenty of hammers from Track of the Wolf, classified under the individual locks:

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Category.aspx/632

For an advanced restoration job you might do better with one of the castings from this site, but they are expensive, and you have to drill and file the hole for the tumbler:

https://www.peterdyson.co.uk/

[BPJONES]

Yes, thanks for the links. Once I know better just what I have I will look into a hammer.
I did some research and I think I have to agree that Minories was not the name of the maker but more so the area from which it came. I will see if there is more legible writing on the barrel when I can look at it. But I think the information in the above post pertaining to a William Minories as a gun maker is actually William Wilson of the Minories. If I cannot make out another name on the barrel then I doubt that William Wilson is the maker of this gun.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

There is a limited amount of importance to maker's names. We have to get out of our head the idea that the Colt factory made every part of every Colt, and nothing but Colts. In Birmingham and Liège there was every imaginable arrangement from companies making their own guns to buying in and stamping known or unknown gunmakers' products in one piece. There were parts suppliers, contracted and uncontracted outworkers, piecework employees etc. There were even individuals who rented bench space and power taken by belt from the great steam-powered layshaft which ran the length of the factory, and sold part of their product to the owner and part outside. Then there were the outright forgeries. Greener sued a lot of people who found a Greener, Grener, Griner etc. on skid row in Belgium. Plenty didn't bother suing, and in Spain a lot of revolvers were stamped "for the SMITH AND WESSON cartridge" with the large print in monogram form.

My Gibbs shotgun has a serial prefix which reveals to the present Gibbs company that the barrels were bought in from Webley in Birmingham, as were the complete double shotguns sold by Sharps in the US, and possibly some rifle locks. Virtually every US damascus barrelled shotgun was made from Belgian tubes, as was my Kehlner Bohemian muzzle-loading double rifle. It goes on and on.

[54bore]

I agree with Ballistics in Scotland about the Colt factory, Dont think for a minute that the lure of another $1.00 wasn't thought of back then and companies did what they needed to make it. I seen an ad one time in an old Montgomery Ward Catalog for 'Smart Pills' sorta like this one.

188040

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I meant that with the big American factories the name and the firearm are pretty conclusively linked, but in Europe things could be more complicated in an endless variety of ways. An additional one is that it was routine for small-town "gunmakers" to have their names engraved on guns they had no part at all in making. It is the bane of British columnists' lives, getting inquiries about the makers of cherished heirlooms (and perhaps perfectly good ones) who were ironmongers and never made a gun in their lives.

[jjarrell]

You have a very unique gun there. I'm envious. Imagine the stories it would tell if it could speak.

[BPJONES]

I received the gun today. The barrel that is marked Minories London is indeed an English barrel. I cannot see any other name on the barrel. This gun only has 2 London proof marks, the early crown with an interwoven GP beneath and a crown with a V beneath. So, I would say this gun was originally a flintlock from the mid to late 1700's. So far I cannot make out any name on the lock. The engraving on the rear of the lock is of what looks like 2 standing geese. From the looks of the lock, I would say this was converted to percussion a very long time ago. It is the original tang. It is sticking up a bit because it is slightly bent. The bad thing is (if you want to call it that) is that the tacks are 20th century. I didn't pull one out to check the shank but they are magnetic so not solid brass. Who knows when they were put in. I must say though, this was one light very nice pointing gun in its day. Now to acquire a hammer and give it a place of honor on the wall.

Wouldn't you know it. I measured the hammer throw and it is 1.55 and that is the one TOTW is out of stock on and don't know when/if they will get more.

[bedbugbilly]

Even with more modern tacks, I wouldn't rule out possible Indian use. It would help I'm sure, if you had a fairly complete history of the gun - by that - I mean if the owners could be traced back as far as possible to know if it had possibly come off a reservation and around when.

I purchased a "kind of" full stock percussion rifle that came off of an Indian Reservation in the Upper Lower Michigan (not the UP). The stock is curly maple with a poor boy crescent butt (no butt plate), a hand made iron trigger guard, set triggers, a percussion lock that appears have been reused on the rifle and a octagon barrel - about .42 caliber that is obviously hand rifled. It utilizes a drum and nipple. The barrel has obviously been cut and this rifle is at least the third rifle it has been on - evident by the under lugs and under staples. No nose cap, just aa square cut end. The rifle has seen hard use from he wear that it has - it's a good example of a pieced together rifle that I'm guessing was probably used up into the early 1900's.

My point? Your gun is a prime example of updating an old gun to keep it working. Obviously the lock doesn't fit the lock mortise but it was good enough to keep the gun working. If it is a "fake" . . . then it is a VERY GOOD fake . . . but from what I'm seeing, I think it is a good solid original. The tacks? Who knows at what point they may have been added. One can visualize such a gun being passed down in a tribal family and just like things that we have had passed on to us . . cars, guns etc. we sometimes "personalize" them to make them "ours" - this may have been where the tacks come in.

I once bought a collection and in it, were several later 1700, fine fowlers at one time, that had been cut down both wood wise and barrel wise - none were complete. One was without the lock but had nice engraved brass furniture, the other a fowler but with steel furniture - both had been flint originally. Along the years somewhere, repairs and changes had been made to keep them going as their purpose was to put meat on the table. Neither were believed to be "Indian guns" but they were very good fowlers that at some point, were considered "old" and were converted and for one reason or another, had been cut down or altered to keep them working and fit the needs of the user. Not unlike cutting down a bolt action military rifle and we all know how many of those were done by GIs who brought them back and made hunting rifles out of them.

Hopefully you'll be able to find out more on this gun - I think it's a very nice historical relic. Check the barrel carefully as you'll never know what you might find. About 45 years ago, I bought an old "butchered" early military flintlock that had been cut down. In examining it, I found an old hand written piece of paper rolled and down in the barrel with a history of the gun and the original owner. It would sure be nice if it could talk for you as I imagine it has quite a history!

Thanks for sharing!

[BPJONES]

There is no doubt this gun is old. If I am correct, going by the 2 proof marks and the Minories wording, that this gun is from the mid to late 1700's, then I'm sure it has gone through several hands in its lifetime. And obviously, it has had whatever steps taken as necessary to keep it shooting over the years. These guns certainly didn't sit around in the closet. It may or may not have started off life as a trade gun but it could have became one at any point in its history, through trade/swap or by other means. And yes, the tacks could have been added anytime to symbolize something for whatever owner at the time. I'm sure it carries an interesting history. The barrel, by the way, is 44" long but overall the gun feels surprisingly light. I have to locate a light to drop down the bore. Maybe I'll be lucky enough to find a rolled up piece of paper. Perhaps I should look under the buttplate!