Why you stop when something is not right. This is me, today

[jonp]

I loaded up 24 rounds of 38sp using the new IMR Target. I started at the bottom and worked up .2gr in groups of 6 from 3.2 to 3.8gr since I was using my trusty test gun, a 357Mag Blackhawk. I hand measured each round on an electronic scale.

I started out ok but started getting strange readings much lower than it should have been when going up the ladder and some over 100fps different from the next which should not have happened. At 3.6gr I again got strange up and down readings and then on the 5th round I pulled the trigger and "CLICK". I stopped and waited then attempted to pull the hammer to rotate. Couldn't move it. Pulled the pin and attempted to remove the cylinder. Wouldn't budge.

Examining the pistol I discovered that a round had went off and jammed halfway between the throat and the cylinder binding it up. Reasoning that the round had gone off so the primer was dead I took a dead blow to it and was able to remove the cylinder and this is what I found

187871

187872

I beat the Berrys plated in half to remove the cylinder. Both halves popped right out with a wooden dowel and after cleaning there was no damage to the Blackhawk. I set the next in line out in case I somehow double charged it and moved on to 3.8gr. The readings were again far below what IMR indicated it should be as in 150-250fps and fluctuated wildly.

I'm wondering about this powder. I got some very odd readings with it over every loading point. I'll try again but this is a good reminder that if something doesn't feel, look or smell right then stop and find out what is wrong before pulling the trigger again

[Shiloh]

What bullet weight?? Did I just not se it??

Shiloh

[Shiloh]

I'm looking at data right now on the Hodgdon/IMR site.

Starting Loads
Maximum Loads

Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.


Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)

Pressure


Grs.

Vel. (ft/s)

Pressure


125 GR. CAST LRNFP
Manufacturer IMR
Powder IMR Target
Bullet Diameter .358"
C.O.L. 1.445"
Starting Load
Grains 3.1
Velocity (ft/s) 853
Pressure 11,400 PSI
Maximum Load
Grains 4.3
Velocity (ft/s) 1,077
Pressure 14,600 PSI

Barrel Length: 7.7"
Case: Winchester
Primer: Winchester SP, Small Pistol
Trim Length: 1.145"
Twist: 1:18.75"



Shiloh

[35remington]

Orient the powder when shooting next time and see if that was responsible for the variation. If it was I would suppose it is not a good candidate for that type of loading. Light bullets shallowly seated are tough to get low spreads with over the chronograph.

Helpful to try with standard weight bullets I would think. I would guess most would be curious if accuracy and velocity are similar with similar charge weight as compared to Bullseye.

[jonp]

158gr Berrys plated. The data for cast shows a min/max of 3.2/3.9 for lswc and nearly the same for jacketed
I used3.2-3.8gr

[tazman]

Just something for next time, if you get one stuck like that again. Use a brass rod from the front of the barrel and drive the boolit back into the cylinder. That way you won't be so hard on the barrel, frame, and cylinder.
I have done that and it isn't hard to do.

[nagantguy]

Good good advice! Earlier this winter I posted about doing some loading for 357 mag but was reading 357 max data cause getting a max is in the works! Anyhow a little voice in my head kept saying "duh I don't remember using this much of this powder " I stopped re-evaluated everything and said ooooo, this is all wrong and a trip to kaboom land! If it doesn't feel right it usually isn't!

[35remington]

The bullet weight was okay. Since you didn't state what it was I had to guess. Now you really need to see what is up with position variation as it is hard to diagnose otherwise. Other than a partial charge, position problems are all I can think of. This is supposed to be similar to Bullseye as I recall so your charge weights should have given reasonable results.

[dverna]

Might want to check the electronic scale.

I would not be interested in that powder at all if you cannot find what is happening. Not good.

Don Verna

[Eddie17]

What tazman said!

[kayala]

Very sound advice from tazman. Instead of beating up the cylinder just push bullet back.

[jonp]

Yes, I didn't think to do what tazman said for some reason and i'm not sure why. I zero the scale and measure against a check weight each time I start it up so I'm sure it was reading more powder each time. Not sure what is going on but I'm going to try again with the exact same loadings and weight of powder. It was very strange.

BTW: the lee dippers measured within .1cc of bullseye so it should load the same through a measure. I weighed the first several dippers against the lee dipper scale and they were consistently close through the pistol weights. According to IMR the velocities should have been higher, though.

[jeepyj]

Just something for next time, if you get one stuck like that again. Use a brass rod from the front of the barrel and drive the boolit back into the cylinder. That way you won't be so hard on the barrel, frame, and cylinder.
I have done that and it isn't hard to do.
Solid advise ^^^^^^^^

[shoot-n-lead]

That stuck bullet was a primer only round...NO powder.

[jonp]

That stuck bullet was a primer only round...NO powder.

My thoughts, also. The wild variations in fps worry me, though.

[shoot-n-lead]

My thoughts, also. The wild variations in fps worry me, though.

I have seen those primer only rounds at the range on multiple occasions. A guy had a powder measure that would miss dropping powder...I would be there shooting alongside and it would make a funny noise and do exactly what yours did. On a day that it happened twice...pulled some bullets...there was no powder in one of the cases.

And, I would feel like you about the crazy variations.

[35remington]

The wide variations were what I was commenting on, but the stuck bullet does sound like a primer only round.

[taco650]

On the velocity variations, what primer are you using? Are they an old or contaminated batch? Just throwing things out for consideration.

On the stuck bullet, I have done that a couple times with my 44 mag-no powder, just primer and I resorted to pounding the bullet back into the case with a rod through the barrel. Hearing that pop sound was very disconcerting!

[44MAG#1]

I just can't get over anyone beating on the cylinder enough to cut the bullet in half in order to remove the cylinder.
I just can't get over it.
This should go down in the "flabbergasted"section of the hard to believe book of "irrational thinking".

[Texas by God]

I just can't get over anyone beating on the cylinder enough to cut the bullet in half in order to remove the cylinder.
I just can't get over it.
This should go down in the "flabbergasted"section of the hard to believe bo k of "irrational thinking".
Had to do this once. A kid had a BIB with .38 fmj factory loads in a Chief's Special. This was the first round & not knowing any better he kept firing till it locked up. It came to me with 3 in the barrel, 1bridging the cylinder gap,and a live round still in the cylinder. Amazing. I had to drill a hole through the bullet of the live round,shake out the gunpowder &sqirt oil in to kill the primer. Four jacketed bullets came out but I had to shear the bridging one in two first with a brass hammer. Suprisingly enough the only damage was the locking bolt broke when I hammered the cylinder out. After checkout & repair that little gun was still good and I even offered to buy it. Strange indeed. Best, Thomas.

[44man]

Not ever beat the cylinder. Get the boolit back in. No powder, no worry. Primer only that stuck a boolit. Loading one at a time instead of a block to check each. Missed the powder.
There is not any way I would cut a boolit with the cylinder.

[leadhead]

I would also be very leery of the electronic scale.....I wouldn't own one.
To many things to go wrong with this "modern" stuff. But that's just me.
Denny

[jonp]

I just can't get over anyone beating on the cylinder enough to cut the bullet in half in order to remove the cylinder.
I just can't get over it.
This should go down in the "flabbergasted"section of the hard to believe book of "irrational thinking".

Lol..maybe. There is a reason I not only use a Blackhawk when testing loads instead of a Target Masterpiece and also either Berrys Plated or Cast. Both are soft enough to get out one way or another. I never thought about beating the bullet back into the shell and I'm not sure that would have worked with the 357Mag and 38sp brass. More likely to have crushed the brass and maybe scratched the cylinder. The Blackhawk has not a scratch on it and no damage.

For those that asked I was using:

158gr Berrys Plated HP's in .357
IMR Target Powder
Fiocchi SPP
Random 38sp brass
Ruger 357Mag Blackhawk

The thread wasn't about what I was testing or the gun I used or how I cleared it, it was a reminder that when you hear or see something that isn't right. STOP.

As for the steps I'm checking:

1) I'm pulling the next bullet in line to see if that one was double charged just in case.
2) My balance beam is at my camp so I'm buying a new scale to check this one against and since I checked the Lee Dippers and came out exactly on the Bullseye loads I will dip Bullseye and check the weights on my current scale.
3) I'm getting a different chrony to check the one I have.
4) I'm going to start at the bottom and work up again to see if the rounds are as inconsistent as my readings indicate. If so I have no use for this new powder, I don't need to worry about tipping my pistol up before each shot with loads within the range listed by IMR as min/max.

This is the first squib I've had in over 30yrs of reloading. I had hand weighed each round and I thought I'd given them a quick check under a light but I obviously missed one.

[35remington]

To some degree you misunderstand. I suggest positioning the powder to see if position causes the variation. If it is consistent oriented consistently and inconsistent when no attention is paid to powder position.....you have found the problem. Then you know what to do.

You do not yet know whether you need to worry about powder position with the IMR data from min to max. Find out.

[jonp]

No, understood what you were getting at. If its that sensitive then im not interested in it. After I check everything else I will do what you said. Thanks

[35remington]

If it is that sensitive I would not be interested either, but I am interested in what you find out.

[joatmon]

Sounds like your steps in post #23 should give you the answers you need.
Thanks for the warning post.
Aaron

[P Flados]

Your point as to the need to stop when in doubt is well founded.

As many have said, the stuck bullet sounds like primer only. I have had several occasions to witness or experience this event. Most were either no bullet movement or just a little movement. A couple of times it was bullet partially out of the cylinder and the rest into the barrel. I have never had the "worst case" event of a bullet left fully in the barrel.

If "no powder" is not the cause, there will normally be plenty of evidence in the form of unburned or poorly burned powder.

The case above with a bullet lodged in the barrel is the big worry as another trigger pull can be a disaster. This is why any FTF or "suspected squib" needs to be a "stop and check it out" event. Even if you think it is just a "light strike" or primer failure problem, do not take a chance, the potential consequence is just too high.

Note that my "half out" events were "fixed" by driving the bullet back into the cylinder.

As far as velocity variations, the 38 Sp is famous for this symptom. However, many guns (mine included) tend to shoot ok even with "big" variations.

I recently did some testing of Titegroup. For this powder, Hodgdon claims "powder position in large cases (45 Colt, 357 Magnum and others) has virtually no effect on velocity". In the thread "Concerns with Titegroup" (link below) post 17 includes my data that shows big swings of similar magnitude for both Titegroup and Promo. It was similar data in other castboolit postings that prompted me to check my loads.

I doubt that there is any powder that will give minimal velocity variations in a 38 Sp with typical low fill densities. Again, the good news is that many of these loads shoot fine in most guns. If velocity variations are unacceptable, the standard proven solution is a deep seated wad cutter. You can also try to use of a powder that gives a high fill density. However, most powder choices that give higher fill densities are much slower than optimum such that "dirty" becomes and understatement. Some also recommend a "work around" - developing a habit such at pointing up while cocking to minimize powder position variations.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?327157-Concerns-with-Titegroup

[CHeatermk3]

Just a side note, is your chronograph a Chrony model?

If yes, were you outdoors or under fluorescent light? My chrony will not function correctly under fluorescent light.

[rockrat]

I had that happen at the range, no powder, but I carry a part of a brass welding rod (1/4" dia.)in my truck and just get the boolit back in the cylinder. Brass won't scratch the steel of the cylinder

[fivefang]

Shalom, anyone who shoots Cast Boolits, Rifle or Pistol should always have a Brass rod Handy:1/4" for all .26 Cal to .458, & a 8"to 10" just for Pistol, Fivefang

[fatelvis]

If you still have ammo from that loading session, I would weigh each one on a scale using a known, properly loaded round as a baseline. You may discover another squib, or worse yet, a double charged round in that batch.

[mozeppa]

That stuck bullet was a primer only round...NO powder.

this^

[Cherokee]

Yep, a number of times I have stopped loading/shooting when something just did not seem right. Usually it turns out I did the right thing.
As for that powder, I would be through with it; too many other good ones to use.

[Harter66]

I have had several that stuck in the gap of know single scaled loaded ammo . A couple even hissed as the powder burned of or left what seemed to be mummies .... Especially odd since it was Unique , lube contamination was the best guess .
I put off a trip 2 days once , turns out if I hadn't it would have been chaos all the way across .