Cast bullets for my .30 Carbine Blackhawk?

[jski]

Awhile back I was conversing with a ex-gunsmith on the Ruger forum in regards to the use of cast bullets in my .30 Carbine Blackhawk and got this:


First .... 30 Carb BHs typically don't like lead bullets. Probably because the twist rate is so slow (1:20) for such a small diameter bullet. Second .... any time bullets are larger than the throats, they will get swaged down to throat diameter as they pass through. This will result in two bad conditions .... chamber pressure will elevate from forcing a large object in a smaller hole, and the excess lead has to go somewhere .... much of which ends up in the bore as lead fouling.

If you are going to shoot your 30 Carb BH and want decent accuracy, use a 100 or 110gr jacketed bullet with the same powder charge.
I asked if this applies to hard cast (BHN 21), gas checked bullets? Never received an answer. So let me ask that question here.

BTW, I have noted that Taffin didn't seem to have a problem: (http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt30carb.htm)


Many sixguns shoot well with jacketed bullets; others do well with cast bullets. Happiness is finding one that does both. The Ruger .30 Carbine does both.

[dg31872]

I have a Blackhawk in 30 carbine that only sees the 311008. I have two moulds in 311008, one gas checked and one plain based. Most of my shooting is light loads, and those get the plain based. My ear busters get the gas checked. I use wheel weights for both.
I have been doing this for years without any problems.

[44man]

No reason they will not work if the throats are a tad over groove. I agree it is senseless to shoot over throat size or have them too small. Easy fix. Just need to measure, to see what you have.
The caliber is hard to get accurate even with jacketed, friend has one but I never was able to play with it. He doesn't have a mold. Work with the twist and I bet it will be worth it.

[Shiloh]

Baloney.
There are at least two at the range who load and shoot cast from the .30 carbine Blackhawk. Accurate, LOUD!!

Shiloh

[44man]

I have gone full circle, first revolvers in the 50's were shot with cast. Then to Hornady bullets for IHMSA and as I figured the revolver I went back to cast until 100% today. Better designs along with knowing what a revolver needs has let me shoot better with cast.
Started to make my own molds and nobody or other boolit has ever out shot them. Had ideas when cutting the cherries, off the beaten path, no drawings or copies. Worked and some 500 meter groups were staggering. Yeah I shot 547 yards with cast.
Sent some out to get copied and there was always a slight change that got close but not the same. My boolits can not be changed and all my friends will shoot nothing else. Started with many GC until I found a PB can be better, .454 to 500 S&W. Have a mold I made for the 500 Linebaugh too, PB. I don't have the caliber, made for a friend but it shot.
I am the last person on earth to say cast won't shoot. I drive them to the pressure limits too. Don't expect me to say you need light loads of fast powders. With reduced friction some of my cast loads exceed what you can use with bullets. Even rifles use rifle powders, not shotgun or pistol stuff.
Why would you be told the .30 carbine will not work?

[mac60]

I load cast for my .30 carbine BH. The Lee C309-120-R (acww) sized .309" lubed with TAC-1 with Sage aluminum check over 4.7 gr. Unique with CCI500 primer, R-P brass. I can shoot a 2-3" group at 25 yds. which is sufficient for my needs.

187848

[44man]

Why not a full load of H110? The case is the same length as a .357 that works with 4227. Many options.
Darn, wish I had one to work with. Unique is like using it in a 45-70. Buy a huge gun to turn it into a .38???? No need at all. The .30 carbine is a pistol round shot from a short rifle, small case of course but better then a .38 with velocity. Twist dictates what you can shoot. A slow twist needs more speed.

[runfiverun]

Mac has my pistol :lol:

I use 32-20 brass in my revolver.
I just trimmed it back and blew out the case, and use 32-20 boolits.[and loads]
the rcbs 32-098 rnfp is my main one, but if I want to step on it I use the lyman 311359 with a check.
I don't step on the speed pedal too often and mostly use the lighter load.
it has done everything from Grouse to rock chucks to putting down a deer with a broken leg.
I was a bit surprised when the little boolit went in one side and out the other at about 70 yds on that doe.
killed her without any drama though.

[mac60]

jski - The bottom line here is that I would put more stock in what John Taffin says than an ex-gunsmith on the Ruger forum. There is no question that a Ruger BH in .30 carbine can shoot a cast boolit with reasonable accuracy. I know this to be fact because I have done it.

[mac60]

Mac has my pistol :lol:

I use 32-20 brass in my revolver.
I just trimmed it back and blew out the case, and use 32-20 boolits.[and loads]
the rcbs 32-098 rnfp is my main one, but if I want to step on it I use the lyman 311359 with a check.
I don't step on the speed pedal too often and mostly use the lighter load.
it has done everything from Grouse to rock chucks to putting down a deer with a broken leg.
I was a bit surprised when the little boolit went in one side and out the other at about 70 yds on that doe.
killed her without any drama though.

So, in effect the .30 carbine BH is a modern day .32-20. Mine will chamber a .32-20 case sized with a .30 carbine die and the cylinder will rotate. I cannot get a round to chamber loaded with a boolit over .309" (so that's what I size to). I've never fired ammo loaded in .32-20 cases, but it's good to know I can. Anymore, I am very seldom after top velocity with all the noise and recoil. I just want to hear the thing go bang and hit what I'm shooting at.

[jski]

BUT, if the bullet is hard cast, wouldn't that ameliorate any tendency for it to blow past the rifle grooves and smear its way thru the barrel? ... fouling the barrel in the process?

If in addition it's gas checked, wouldn't that again ameliorate any smearing thru the barrel?

My thinking is that this bullet would lock onto the rifle grooves and hold on.

[44man]

Go for it. Don't overthink it.

[runfiverun]

your cylinder throats will size them to your barrel diameter or a titch more.
you don't need uber hard to make a handgun work.
in some cases adding hardness can help things work better.
but diameter will trump that.

Mac it's pretty close.
I had to whittle a bit off the front of the case to fit the length of my cylinders with my boolit.
I wanted them to be a titch short so I Head Spaced off the rim.
the thinner brass allowed me to use a slightly larger diameter boolit and the 32-20 die set together.
the 30 carbine die F/L sizes the cases again but doesn't give me enough neck tension or roll crimp.
so In effect I end up neck sizing the rounds.

[Thumbcocker]

Lee soup can sans gas check sized .310 over 12.0 of 2400 work fine for me.

[jski]

44man, "Don't overthink it" ? I'm an engineer so "overthinking" is what we do. Plus a lot of empiricism.

But you guys bring up a much bigger question: are cast bullets, whatever their hardness, inherently less accurate than jacketed or even plated bullets?

[Ickisrulz]

I shoot 311008 bullets sized at .311 exclusively using either 30 Carbine or 32-20 brass. Not at top velocities because I have no need to. They are accurate.

Everything I learned came from Beagle.

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ByFireArm/Cast%20in%20the%20.30%20Carbine%20Pistol.pdf

[mac60]

44man, "Don't overthink it" ? I'm an engineer so "overthinking" is what we do. Plus a lot of empiricism.

But you guys bring up a much bigger question: are cast bullets, whatever their hardness, inherently less accurate than jacketed or even plated bullets?

I'd have to say no.

[Leadmelter]

I shoot the 30 in a 10" Contender. 130 gr forgot the powder off hand. Very accurate at 25 yds, still loud, still fun.
I have Lee 7mm Soup can but cannot find a listing for 30 cal soup can on the Lee site or Midsouth. Help!
Leadmelter
MI

[runfiverun]

less accurate,,, no.
they will point out the flaws in your handgun however.

[P Flados]

Cast bullets can be very accurate indeed. The only question is "how much work is needed" to get the "desired" results.

For the competition benchrest guys, the answer is probably "way too much effort with no assurance of success"

For the CAS style shooting, the answer is probably "no extra effort at all".

For typical revolver hunting / plinking / making holes in paper, most on this forum will say that the effort needed is "just part of the fun".

As another engineer, I understand the tendency to overthink. However, a lot of people get great results just by following the basics. And FYI, a little "just try it yourself" can get you past the "overthinking" for a lot of stuff that works jsut fine with very little thinking at all,

Getting an appropriate mold, getting Ok fill out and getting the right fit are the first really big steps. Most applications will result in acceptable performance with alloys that most would call medium to medium-hard. Some applications may need a hard alloy, but do not assume this until you proove it. You have more lube choices now than ever before and this site has plenty of info to help you make a good choice.

[44man]

44man, "Don't overthink it" ? I'm an engineer so "overthinking" is what we do. Plus a lot of empiricism.

But you guys bring up a much bigger question: are cast bullets, whatever their hardness, inherently less accurate than jacketed or even plated bullets?
No, not at all. They can be harder at the start but basics works. It is the same, case tension, etc. You have more control then store bought.

[lolbell]

Cast Boolits can be made to shoot more accurate than jacketed in hand guns. I won't say that about a 1000 yard rifle, but we are talking hand guns here. If you do your homework and set your Blackhawk up properly it will shoot cast great but if you are not willing to do what it takes it will probably shoot jacketed best. Lead causes less wear on a bore than jacketed too. Not that you will wear a Blackhawk out.

I'm sure Iowegan is the gunsmith on the other forum you are quoting, while I have learned a lot of valuable knowledge from him over the years and I'm sure he is a great gunsmith, these guys here at CastBoolits live and breathe shooting cast and they'll not lead you astray. I'd heed their advice when shooting cast.

On a final note I think a boolit with a bhn of 21 in a handgun is a waste of tin and atinomy (sp). Copper too if it has a GC. JMHO

[jski]

I'm using bullets from Montana Bullet Works. And actually these bullets have an BHN 22. They are the only providers of .308 bullets of the weight I'm looking for (115 gr. ... 125 gr. would be nice BUT is unavailable from MBW) and are gas checked.

[mac60]

jski - They are NOT the only providers. Besides, .308" might not even be the best diameter for your needs. Diameter, hardness, lube all come into play. There are probably others, but here's a link to at least one more supplier. If you're willing to shoot at a lower velocity you might not even need a gas check. There's so much knowledge and experience here on this forum - and I don't know how much looking around you have done, but of one thing I am sure. The answers to all your questions and concerns are right here at your fingertips.

http://missouribullet.com/results.php?category=6

[Cherokee]

I've been loading cast in my 30 BH's since they came out, bought the first one I found in '69. The OM 30 BH's will not work with 32-20 brass, only the new models.
I've run 1600 fps loads down to about 800 fps, all shot well and did whatever job I wanted...they hit where I aim. Lyman 311419, RCBS 98 SWC, Lyman 311008, and lots of others work fine.
Other folks have already reminded you of "fit" so...go have fun with the 30 BH.

[jski]

After what I've read here, I think I'll stick with Montana Bullet Works' 115 gr. hard cast (BHN 22), gas checked bullets. And experiment with diameters (currently using .309) and charges (currently using 14-15 gr. of Hodgdon H110).

From Montana Bullet Works' site:

ALLOY Linotype, BHN 22, MBW heat treated, BHN 22
DIAMETER RANGE .308, .309, .310
WEIGHT 115gr
CALIBER 308
NOSE TO CRIMP 0.355