Max Velocity for Linotype BHN 22 GC Boolits?

[Stretch32]

New guy with a dumb question on cast lead gas checked cast bullets.

I'm loading for an old Kar 88 commission carbine and bought some 190 grain Linotype 22 BHN, GC RN bullets in .321 diameter. They work fine for my bore (slugged out at .319) but I'm having trouble with under pressure loads using H4895. I tried using Hodgdon reduced load data using 32 grains (to minimize velocity and recoil) for about 1800 fps but got backed out primers indicative of a load that's too light. I'd like to go up on powder to around 35 grains (still in spec for CUP for the carbine) but think I'll be approaching 2000 fps.

The barrel on my carbine is NOS so it's in as new condition. What sort of velocity could I achieve without causing leading issues with these bullets?

Thanks in advance.

Stretch

[runfiverun]

4,000 fps maybe.

[Lloyd Smale]

a lot depends on the quality of the bore finish. Ive see rifles that lead at less then 1500fps and guns you could get away with 2500 fps. With a good barrel and a coated bullet the skys the limit or I should say the real limit is when accuracy starts going away

[44man]

Yes, I don't use lino but alloy WW metal to give me 20-22 BHN when water dropped.
Only accuracy fall off or leading will be where you turn it down a little.

[Char-Gar]

New guy with a dumb question on cast lead gas checked cast bullets.

I'm loading for an old Kar 88 commission carbine and bought some 190 grain Linotype 22 BHN, GC RN bullets in .321 diameter. They work fine for my bore (slugged out at .319) but I'm having trouble with under pressure loads using H4895. I tried using Hodgdon reduced load data using 32 grains (to minimize velocity and recoil) for about 1800 fps but got backed out primers indicative of a load that's too light. I'd like to go up on powder to around 35 grains (still in spec for CUP for the carbine) but think I'll be approaching 2000 fps.

The barrel on my carbine is NOS so it's in as new condition. What sort of velocity could I achieve without causing leading issues with these bullets?

Thanks in advance.

Stretch

Stretch, it is common for folks to thinks a harder alloy will solve their leading issues, which isn't always true. Linotype has some uses in cast bullets, but not as many as folks think. Lino also has a downside or two.

Linotype was developed for the printers. It needs to be hard to withstand multiple printings and it needs to fill out the small print for a sharp imprint. To accomplish this, Lino is very rich in antimony.

Antimony is one of the very few metals that contract when hot and expand when cool. This make it ideal for casting small type or small bullets. Bullets cast with Linotype will be larger than bullets cast of low or no antimony bullets.

The pressure it take to obdurate an lino bullet will be quite high. In fact, you can't count on any reasonable pressure to do the deed.

The antimony crystals are held in suspension in the alloy and are very hard. Lino bullets will therefore abrade the rifle barrel far more than any other alloy. This will be most noticeably in the throat.

Linotype is best used to cast very small bullets or better yet as a hardner for soft lead. A bullets cast 50/50 (pure lead and lino) will yield a bullet that is as hard as any rifle bullet will ever need to be. It will produce a bullet around 15 bhn. or about the same as Lyman No. 2.

The velocity you can achieve with any alloy bullet, with accuracy will be limited more by barrel twist than any other factor. Best accuracy with a gas check bullets will be in the 1,600 to 1,900 fps range. Providing of course the bullet temper, powder type and charge, sizing diameter and bullet lubricant are in order.

When the velocity gets to the 2,000 fps level, things get more difficult. In a slow twist barrel you can go as high as 2,500 fs, but lots of small things start to be critical.

The good news, is for recreational shooting and hunting, there is no need to go above 1,800 fps or so. By applying the basics of cast bullet shooting, it is no great trick to fire a GC bullet at 1,800 fps, with great accuracy and a whistle clean barrel.

I will also say that when you hit something with a lino bullets going 1,800 fps or higher, the bullet will shatter like glass. That might be a good trait for varmints, but not for anything you want to eat.

[44man]

No lead can take what jacketed can before skidding. I don't use pressure to expand boolits, I use fit but even a gas check can skid. Hard does not cause leading unless there are gas gaps. BHN alone is no indicator either. It has no meaning for ductile properties. Lino can shatter but mine at the same BHN will not. It is how you make the alloy. Even a 50-50 of pure with WW can reach 18 to 20 or more BHN if hardened but it is still explosive with expansion. But for accuracy you need a GC.
I wish BHN would go away and another way to call alloys could come about. Not to be, can't be measured.

[Stretch32]

Gents,

Thanks for for the replies.

The rifle in question shoots J-bore 8mm Mauser (hence the .321 vice .323 diameter). I'm not hunting with the rifle and would just like to make accurate loads for target shooting only. I bought the Boolits from Montana Bullet Works and, after a few questions about planned use, they recommended the Linotype over the MBW heat treated for my application.

I've shot about 20 rounds with my current load and it's pretty accurate. I'll look to borrow a friends chronograph this weekend and see what velocity im actually getting. Right now I still have a slight under pressure problem, after making a few repairs to the rifle, so I'd like to go up a grain or so if possible to alleviate the issue. Thanks again.

Stretch

[Krieger82]

I have shot similar alloys at full house jacketed velocities (2500fps). Out of minty bores mind you. Accuracy was not to great however.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Shiloh]

Just a SWAG, but 2500 mebbe?? WHite Label Lube claims that and faster are doable with his lube.

Shiloh

[RickinTN]

Consider going to a faster powder instead of upping the 4895 charge. You can alleviate the lower than wanted pressures without having to increase velocity.
Rick

[longbow]

There's a three part series of articles by Beagle in the CastPics section. Here's part three with some loads and velocities:

http://castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/Cast%20in%20the%20.223,%20Part%20III.pdf

[Oklahoma Rebel]

so you do not cast your own boolits? if you do , shooting pure lino is a terrible waste, you could add some pure ( 1/3-1/2 wt) and heat treat to get the same bhn (or more) and have that much more boolits to play with

[Stretch32]

Gents,

Thanks again for the replies.

I don't cast bullets myself (no real good reason why) so I'm buying commercially available bullets that fit my needs.

I was able to get to a chrono today and with 32 grains of H4895 powder I saw an average velocity of 1580 fps. For 33 and 34 grains of H4895 I saw an average velocity of 1680 and 1780 fps respectively. These velocities are a lot slower than I anticipated but actually work out for me based on the low maximum CUP of a KAR / GEW 88 receiver. I'm using H4895 with reduced loads because of the lower max CUP of the rifle and didn't want to go to a faster powder for concern of over pressure issues.

I probably should have been a little more clear in my first post in terms of what I was trying to do. I was trying to keep the pressure inside the safe CUP limits without shooting the bullet so fast I leaded my barrel. I thought, based on interpolation of the load data, that I would be reaching 1800-1900 fps with a 32 grain charge of H4895 vice the 1580 fps I actually got. I wanted to know the max velocity a cast lead bullet could be shot without leading issues so I could go up a little on charge to fix the under pressure problem of only using 32 grains of H4895.

At this point, it looks like I'll actually be okay with 32-33 grains of H4895 with the cast bullet I'm using.

Stretch

[runfiverun]

I'm a bit surprised at those velocity's too.
in my 8x57 I shoot 31grs of Imr 4895 and I am getting near 1900 fps.

the thing about going to a slower powder is that you won't raise the pressure until you increase the charge even further.
so if your 4895 shows 1600 fps at 34 grs then a load of 4064 would show that same velocity at the same pressure with about 36grs but you'll have a better case fill which can help with other issues.
another thing that can help is to decrease the 4895 load and add a filler to take up the air space.
this makes ignition much more consistent, and also helps the powder burn more efficiently.

[Stretch32]

The powder I'm using is H4895 (vice IMR 4895) which Hodgdon recommends as their reduced load powder. I didn't see any other loads that would yield a lower pressure / similar velocity than the 32 grains of H4895 in the manual although there may be some in other manuals. I'll look into using a filler but changing brass to Remington from the PPU I was using seems to work better with no under pressure indications.

The velocities are probably so slow, I think, because a KAR 88 only has an 18.5" long barrel. Its much shorter than most military rifles barrels that shoot 8x57 Mauser.

With all that, do you think I'll have a problem with leading if I keep the velocity around 1600 fps?

Stretch

[runfiverun]

your fine.
you'd be fine with your alloy cut with 3 parts of pure lead.
hardness is a factor of course, but it's down somewhere in third or fourth place as far as importance.

[telebasher]

Stretch, it is common for folks to thinks a harder alloy will solve their leading issues, which isn't always true. Linotype has some uses in cast bullets, but not as many as folks think. Lino also has a downside or two.

Linotype was developed for the printers. It needs to be hard to withstand multiple printings and it needs to fill out the small print for a sharp imprint. To accomplish this, Lino is very rich in antimony.

Antimony is one of the very few metals that contract when hot and expand when cool. This make it ideal for casting small type or small bullets. Bullets cast with Linotype will be larger than bullets cast of low or no antimony bullets.

The pressure it take to obdurate an lino bullet will be quite high. In fact, you can't count on any reasonable pressure to do the deed.

The antimony crystals are held in suspension in the alloy and are very hard. Lino bullets will therefore abrade the rifle barrel far more than any other alloy. This will be most noticeably in the throat.

Linotype is best used to cast very small bullets or better yet as a hardner for soft lead. A bullets cast 50/50 (pure lead and lino) will yield a bullet that is as hard as any rifle bullet will ever need to be. It will produce a bullet around 15 bhn. or about the same as Lyman No. 2.

The velocity you can achieve with any alloy bullet, with accuracy will be limited more by barrel twist than any other factor. Best accuracy with a gas check bullets will be in the 1,600 to 1,900 fps range. Providing of course the bullet temper, powder type and charge, sizing diameter and bullet lubricant are in order.

When the velocity gets to the 2,000 fps level, things get more difficult. In a slow twist barrel you can go as high as 2,500 fs, but lots of small things start to be critical.

The good news, is for recreational shooting and hunting, there is no need to go above 1,800 fps or so. By applying the basics of cast bullet shooting, it is no great trick to fire a GC bullet at 1,800 fps, with great accuracy and a whistle clean barrel.

I will also say that when you hit something with a lino bullets going 1,800 fps or higher, the bullet will shatter like glass. That might be a good trait for varmints, but not for anything you want to eat.
This needs to be a sticky, this is about as plain and simple as it gets.