454 casull advice.

[z28z34man]

My father just bought a 454 casull and is looking to have me reload some ammo for it. He is not looking for wrist snapping recoil but he has fired 500 Smith's before so he knows what recoil can be like.

He loves my 357 mag load of a zero 125 gr jsp with 21.4 gr of h110 seated to a oal of 1.575. he is looking for the sensation of shooting a slow burning Magnum powder on a grander scale. I am thinking a light for caliber bullet with a moderate change h110 will give him the sensation he is looking for without having too much recoil. What are your thoughts?

[nhyrum]

H110 is a good go to, vv n110 or vv n105 may be a little better. I have yet to get some, but I hear that's where they excel. Faster velocities, larger charges with the same pressure

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Tatume]

Light for caliber is bad for H110. Moderate charge is bad for H110. Don't do either. Either one will cause bullets to be stuck in the bore. Moderate charges of H110 makes it a sure thing.

The 454 Casull can be loaded from mid-range to fairly substantial velocities with Alliant 2400.

It can also be loaded from light to mid-range with Unique.

Either 2400 or Unique can be used with light for caliber bullets (265 - 300 grains). H110 should be reserved for full-power loads, especially with bullets in the heavier portion of the range. Always use caution with H110, and keep loads stiff, within 95% of maximum.

[z28z34man]

I was thinking starting at 34 gr with this load

BULLET WEIGHT260 GR. FA JFP
ManufacturerHodgdon
PowderH110
Bullet Diameter.452"
C.O.L.1.765"
Starting Load
Grains34.0
Velocity (ft/s)1,817
Pressure37,100 CUP
Maximum Load
Grains36.0
Velocity (ft/s)1,954
Pressure51,600 CUP

[Boolseye]

I'm confident the bullet will exit the bore. Use two hands.

[Tatume]

I'm confident the bullet will exit the bore. Use two hands.

Truly.

[44man]

Carry a brass rod and hammer. Pay attention to every trigger pull. We have stuck more starting loads up to near max then I care to count.
It is a surprise to see unburned powder packed behind a boolit in the bore.
It is the SR primer. Most will fire but I assure you, it will happen.
I wish starting loads were removed from manuals for the .454 with H110 and 296.
Cut down .460 brass with a LP mag primer cures it, allowing all listed loads to work although near max was more accurate.
2400 or Unique is best for the medium loads.

[dh2]

for me a target load for the 454 is Unique pushing a 265 gr cast flat point, I have worked with this load for two years now and been happy with it .
H110 and W296 has not shown to like cast boolit loads in this round

[Whiterabbit]

My father just bought a 454 casull and is looking to have me reload some ammo for it. He is not looking for wrist snapping recoil but he has fired 500 Smith's before so he knows what recoil can be like.

He loves my 357 mag load of a zero 125 gr jsp with 21.4 gr of h110 seated to a oal of 1.575. he is looking for the sensation of shooting a slow burning Magnum powder on a grander scale. I am thinking a light for caliber bullet with a moderate change h110 will give him the sensation he is looking for without having too much recoil. What are your thoughts?

My thoughts?

Exact opposite. Exact.

Heavy for caliber, just on the cusp of too heavy. 370 grains minimum. 396 CP great, 425 ranch dog ideal.

Slowest powder. If you can get away with a 4198 great. H110 works just fine, I suggest you download it till it's right. Please note, by download, I mean keep pushing the bullet down 'till it is sitting right on the powder. Right on down till the bullet meplat is near touching the case mouth.

Just enough crimp to remove the flare. No regard for crimp groove (because of the H110. no-air in case is more important)

The goal is to get "just enough" power out of it that no 45 colt in any ruger can touch it (otherwise why go to 454??). That will keep recoil down actually very far, and power up very high.

If you get any bullet jump (and I don't think you will) switch to a gas check bullet. Or jacketed. Both will give you enough tension not to slip without a heavy roll crimp. soft-lead plain base are highest risk to jump crimp. But slow bullets are less likely to move on you compared to a 200 grain FTX going 2000 fps.

-------

My credentials to opine: I do this in a 460 S&W and have very weak recoil in a very powerful case. I feel better-gunned with my 425's going 1430 fps than I do my 200 grain barnes going 2500+ fps. Recoil much better, the bark much MUCH better.

You want heavy shooting on a grand scale? Then you want heavy for cal, because you will get a rearward push (massive shove). If you go light for cal with H110, you get a wrist snappy muzzle-flipping fireball shooting load. the muzzle flash is impressive, but the wrist torquing gets old, and the steels don't clang as violently as they do with a 400 grain bullet going more slowly.

Did I mention heavy for cal is cast friendly, and doesn't require special thick-jacket bullets designed to withstand 60ksi without stripping out on the rifling? I just can't be bothered to pay a 30% markup on already pricey jacketed bullets just because regular jacketed bullets for 45 acp or 45 colt just aren't designed to handle 454 or even 450 bushmaster. Much less the 52 grains of H110 that fit in a 460S&W case.

[Whiterabbit]

Light for caliber is bad for H110. Moderate charge is bad for H110. Don't do either. Either one will cause bullets to be stuck in the bore. Moderate charges of H110 makes it a sure thing.

The 454 Casull can be loaded from mid-range to fairly substantial velocities with Alliant 2400.

It can also be loaded from light to mid-range with Unique.

Either 2400 or Unique can be used with light for caliber bullets (265 - 300 grains). H110 should be reserved for full-power loads, especially with bullets in the heavier portion of the range. Always use caution with H110, and keep loads stiff, within 95% of maximum.

Respectfully disagree. From a ton of experience. With respect to everything you suggest about H110. All of it.

Regarding a straightwall 45 caliber case, whether 45 colt, 454 casull, or a 460 S&W, the response is the same with H110. Simply put: if you have a 45 colt ruger-only load with a 300 grain bullet that uses 24 grains of H110 with an OAL of 1.7 inches (fake numbers), then if you load it all the same with a 454 case, you have the same ruger load. Just the case mouth is .1" farther up the bullet. You can do exactly the same in a 460 S&W case though it'll look goofy to have the bullet seated below case mouth!

Crimping in a groove is not needed as long as you pick a bullet heavy enough to have lots of shank. Engagement surface with the case keeps things in order nicely.

As for light for caliber, H110 is great for that. Massive fireball and warp-ridiculous bullet speed. 454 is made for it, so is 460 S&W. My 460 can go over 2500 fps with a barnes 200 grain XPB and 52 grains of H110. The fireball is absurd.

H110 is also great for heavy-for-cal. I've gone as high as 590 grains with H110, but I'm sure I can go higher. Just no point. I have no doubts 454 would do GREAT with a 400+ grain bullet with H110.

Finally, H110 is fine to download. If (and this is a critical if!) you put the bullet down on the powder, you are GTG. H110 is dangerous to download when there is air inside the case. The more, the worse off you are. Just a little bit, and you will squibb all over the place. Very dangerous! You can correct that by seating deeper. That let's you download as far as you want and get 100% reliable ignition. The cost of that is you can't
crimp in the crimp groove. This is not a problem if you have a mile of bearing surface (like you do for a 350+ grain 45 cal)

-----------------------

I made a simple tool to measure powder in cases.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=187516&d=1486538231

bands are .100" apart exactly.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=187517&d=1486538231

Sitting in a charged case. I now know exactly how far to seat the bullet to achieve 100% case-fill, 0% air in the case, and 0% powder compression. Exactly what you want for perfect performance from H110, every time. Regardless if you are using a low charge or a high charge of it.

I do always use magnum primers, but regular primers have only given me issues with AA#9 downloaded. Of course, that was back when I still thought I always had to use the crimp groove of a bullet. Now I know better.

[Tatume]

Sounds less like you disagree and more like you have found ways to overcome the difficulties and dangers. Good for you.

Nevertheless, if the OP does what he suggests doing, he will stick bullets in the bore.

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree. I shoot reduced loads in most of my handguns. But the 454 isn't one of them. If you want near 454 power in a package that is easily downloaded a large frame single action or redhawk ruger in 45 colt is the way to go. I consider the 454 kind of like a Ferrari. Not the car to put around in. If you insist on doing it stick with powders like unique, herco, power pistol ect. DONT use 110,296,4227 or aa9 unless you use the upper end of the loading data. Bottom line is the 454 with its small rifle primer isn't used as it was originally designed. When it was in its infantcy it was loaded with duplex and triplex loads using a fast easy to light off powder next to the primer.
Carry a brass rod and hammer. Pay attention to every trigger pull. We have stuck more starting loads up to near max then I care to count.
It is a surprise to see unburned powder packed behind a boolit in the bore.
It is the SR primer. Most will fire but I assure you, it will happen.
I wish starting loads were removed from manuals for the .454 with H110 and 296.
Cut down .460 brass with a LP mag primer cures it, allowing all listed loads to work although near max was more accurate.
2400 or Unique is best for the medium loads.

[Lloyd Smale]

that's fine but its hardly a 454 with bullets seated that deap. You basically changed it into a 45 colt and will have to deal with very long bullet jumps from the cylinder to the throat which can effect accuracy. If I want a 45 colt I leave the 454 at home. Cant see making a 460 into a 454 either. At least with those two I can use a good cci 350 primer. Where did you get that 52 grain load with the 200 for your 460? If its not out of a manual or isn't pressure tested your kind of nuts to post it here. Hogdons manual says max load with a 200 is 46 grains.
Respectfully disagree. From a ton of experience. With respect to everything you suggest about H110. All of it.

Regarding a straightwall 45 caliber case, whether 45 colt, 454 casull, or a 460 S&W, the response is the same with H110. Simply put: if you have a 45 colt ruger-only load with a 300 grain bullet that uses 24 grains of H110 with an OAL of 1.7 inches (fake numbers), then if you load it all the same with a 454 case, you have the same ruger load. Just the case mouth is .1" farther up the bullet. You can do exactly the same in a 460 S&W case though it'll look goofy to have the bullet seated below case mouth!

Crimping in a groove is not needed as long as you pick a bullet heavy enough to have lots of shank. Engagement surface with the case keeps things in order nicely.

As for light for caliber, H110 is great for that. Massive fireball and warp-ridiculous bullet speed. 454 is made for it, so is 460 S&W. My 460 can go over 2500 fps with a barnes 200 grain XPB and 52 grains of H110. The fireball is absurd.

H110 is also great for heavy-for-cal. I've gone as high as 590 grains with H110, but I'm sure I can go higher. Just no point. I have no doubts 454 would do GREAT with a 400+ grain bullet with H110.

Finally, H110 is fine to download. If (and this is a critical if!) you put the bullet down on the powder, you are GTG. H110 is dangerous to download when there is air inside the case. The more, the worse off you are. Just a little bit, and you will squibb all over the place. Very dangerous! You can correct that by seating deeper. That let's you download as far as you want and get 100% reliable ignition. The cost of that is you can't
crimp in the crimp groove. This is not a problem if you have a mile of bearing surface (like you do for a 350+ grain 45 cal)

-----------------------

I made a simple tool to measure powder in cases.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=187516&d=1486538231

bands are .100" apart exactly.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=187517&d=1486538231

Sitting in a charged case. I now know exactly how far to seat the bullet to achieve 100% case-fill, 0% air in the case, and 0% powder compression. Exactly what you want for perfect performance from H110, every time. Regardless if you are using a low charge or a high charge of it.

I do always use magnum primers, but regular primers have only given me issues with AA#9 downloaded. Of course, that was back when I still thought I always had to use the crimp groove of a bullet. Now I know better.

[Love Life]

The Lee 45-255-RF, cast hard, over a stiff dose of 2400 was my favorite load. Fast, accurate, and hit pretty hard.

[z28z34man]

Sounds less like you disagree and more like you have found ways to overcome the difficulties and dangers. Good for you.

Nevertheless, if the OP does what he suggests doing, he will stick bullets in the bore.

I guess I should clarify what I mean. By light for caliber I was thinking 260gr ish not the lightest that data is available for but on the lower section. By moderate charge I meant sticking near the start charge from the data available.

My thought process was lighter bullets recoil less than heavy bullets both pushed equally hard. Also light bullets means more powder in the charge and more muzzle blast. Is my thought process wrong?

[Whiterabbit]

Nevertheless, if the OP does what he suggests doing, he will stick bullets in the bore.

Unless he pushes the bullet deep enough to sit on the powder.

Of course, since he is looking at light-for-cal, he will do nothing but create a ruger-only 45 colt, which IMO is silly. Just shoot a ruger 45 colt then!

That's why I suggest heavy-for-cal. Uses the 454 case and does something no 45 colt can. That's useful to take advantage of a 454 (otherwise what's the point?) while still giving advantages in shootability as well as downrange performance

[Whiterabbit]

that's fine but its hardly a 454 with bullets seated that deap. You basically changed it into a 45 colt and will have to deal with very long bullet jumps from the cylinder to the throat which can effect accuracy. If I want a 45 colt I leave the 454 at home. Cant see making a 460 into a 454 either. At least with those two I can use a good cci 350 primer. Where did you get that 52 grain load with the 200 for your 460? If its not out of a manual or isn't pressure tested your kind of nuts to post it here. Hogdons manual says max load with a 200 is 46 grains.

100% agree. If you are making a 454 out of a 460, it's silly. The gun weighs too much, just shoot a 454. Same with 454 and 45 colt.

That's why heavy-for-cal is great. You simply can't (for example) fit a 500 grain bullet easily in a 454. Makes a 460 worth it. While simultaneously using less powder, being more cast friendly, and hitting like a mack truck.

The load data is from Barnes and Hornady. Also, looks like Hodgdon revamped their data for 2016 or 2017, they used to also say 52 is a max load for the 200 grain FTX bullet. Note the hodgedon max is FAR under the 65ksi max for the 460 cartridge.

That's the other issue with 454 (and 460). at 65ksi, the pressure ceiling, most 45 cal bullets just can't handle the pressure and strip on the rifling. Jacketed isn't good enough, they were simply designed to handle 45 acp pressures. that's why you'll see right on the box, bullets designed for 460 and 454 will state specifically for use in those guns. With a price tag to match. That also likely explains the barnes 460 bullet recommended as such. bullet construction being less an issue when you are solid copper, letting barnes just worry about velocity needed to open the bullet up.

My recommendation is still the same. Heavy for cal, pushed hard enough to do better than a 45 colt ruger-only can do. That kind of down loading still makes a 454 worth shooting over a ruger, and provides more of the "shove" type recoil that is far easier to manage and enjoy while hitting like a mack truck down range, compared to the wrist snappiness fatiguing kind of recoil felt by using H110 with light for cal.

[bigdog454]

My favorite is a hard cast 255 gr fn. using either blue dot or herco. I've killed a couple of deer using the blue dot, loaded to 18 gr. as per alliant, around 1600fps out of my Puma 454. I had trouble with some powders not igniting properly until I changed to WW primers, no ignition problems since. I had killed six or so with mu ruger 454 SRH revolver using the same load. I see no use in a heavier bullet for W T deer or any animal of that size. That is just my personal preferance.
BD

[400short]

Be careful of light bullets with slow burning powders. Flame cutting of the top strap at the front end of the cylinder WILL occur rapidly. Ask me hoe I know. Also, as mentioned above, H110/W296 should not be downloaded due to a high probability of secondary detonation.

[454PB]

Yup, don't use the slow burning ball powders with light boolits, and if you do, follow 44man's advise.

I used a loading manual recommended load with 250 Gr. XTP bullets and AA#9 that produced hangfires on 70% of the rounds.

I use Bluedot for light boolit loads.

[Whiterabbit]

http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm

"The phenomena of Secondary Explosion Effect (SEE) is known to occur only with the slow powders at very low loading densities. "

aka: drop bullet on powder and the loading density is 100% :)

Funny I had a very similar experience with AA#9 and cast bullets, plain base.

[44man]

I had it with the BFR 45-70 when I dropped the load of 4759 1/2 gr for a heavier boolit. Had to go back up. Boolit and powder in the bore.
I had filler in too.

[Tatume]

I guess I should clarify what I mean. By light for caliber I was thinking 260gr ish not the lightest that data is available for but on the lower section. By moderate charge I meant sticking near the start charge from the data available.

My thought process was lighter bullets recoil less than heavy bullets both pushed equally hard. Also light bullets means more powder in the charge and more muzzle blast. Is my thought process wrong?

With the slow burning powders like H110/W296 you will have trouble with 260 grain bullets, even with book starting loads. The loads are too light, and the bullets are too light. The best thing you can do is use either Unique or 2400, and better still would be to also use 45 Colt cases. The 454 Casull is a high performance cartridge, and trying to load it the way you wish with light bullets and slow powders is kind of like driving a top fuel drag-race car in the city. It can be done, but it's not safe.

[z28z34man]

How about something along this line. I am not sure if the 360gr lfn mold is available and if it is if water dropped wheel weights would be adequate but at least I could maybe cast if he likes them

BULLET WEIGHT360 GR. CPB LFN GC
ManufacturerHodgdon
PowderH110
Bullet Diameter.452"
C.O.L.1.760"
Starting Load
Grains21.0
Velocity (ft/s)1,265
Pressure24,000 CUP
Maximum Load
Grains24.0
Velocity (ft/s)1,447
Pressure43,400 CUP

[Tatume]

My favorite load in the 454 Casull is a 325 grain LBT LFN bullet with a maximum charge of H110 or W296, as found at the Hodgdon reloading web site.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

[Tom W.]

I liked Lil' Gun with my .454, and a 300 gr. Boolit..It was super accurate out of the Encore pistol. It was also too much for me and I sold it.

[Whiterabbit]

How about something along this line. I am not sure if the 360gr lfn mold is available and if it is if water dropped wheel weights would be adequate but at least I could maybe cast if he likes them

BULLET WEIGHT360 GR. CPB LFN GC
ManufacturerHodgdon
PowderH110
Bullet Diameter.452"
C.O.L.1.760"
Starting Load
Grains21.0
Velocity (ft/s)1,265
Pressure24,000 CUP
Maximum Load
Grains24.0
Velocity (ft/s)1,447
Pressure43,400 CUP

Heavy for cal mold?

325: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=41_164&osCsid=t0i0hki9qmanppjbt7aavp2kd3

350: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=41_168&osCsid=t0i0hki9qmanppjbt7aavp2kd3

315: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=42_146&osCsid=t0i0hki9qmanppjbt7aavp2kd3

405: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=42_139&osCsid=t0i0hki9qmanppjbt7aavp2kd3

378: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=42_141&osCsid=t0i0hki9qmanppjbt7aavp2kd3

425: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=42_145&osCsid=t0i0hki9qmanppjbt7aavp2kd3

That 425 is what I shoot, and the first bullet I would try to qualify in a 454 if I bought one. I'd measure my cylinder (I assume 1.8 or 1.9"), measure bullet OAL, and pour H110 in a 454 case until it reached the bae of the bullet assuming I used an OAL at .05" off max. Then I would weigh the charge and see where that left me on the load data end of things. If it made sense, I'd try it. If it made no sense, I'd start looking at the 395's and lower with the standard Hodgdon data.

That's just me. But all sorts of those bullets I linked to have all sorts of desirable features. I'd pick any of them (any) with a fat meplat, lots of driving band, minimal lube groove, and an ogive that terminates at full diameter (all these features are my personal preference, other people like plain SWC for example) and be GTG with H110, 2400, 4198, whatever gave reliable ignition and the right velocity (as measured by downrange results)

[Lloyd Smale]

Some still don't understand that a 250 cast bullet going 1200 fps will most times outperform the same bullet going 1800 fps. Especially on larger animals. I'm not a big 454 fan. I have one a FA gun. I don't think its ever seen a bullet lighter then 300 grain. To me its silly to even fool with them. If I want to plink I have 38 specials. For the most part if I need that kind of power I grab a 475 or 500 anyway. The 475 is a much more flexible round. Downloads much better and has more power and heavier bullets on the top end. My honest opinion is the 454 and the 460 do nothing PRACTICAL that cant be done with a 45 colt large frame ruger or redhawk. they both easily push a 300 grain bullet to over 1200 fps. Anything much over 1300 and penetration can suffer because most alloys wont hold up to hitting a big bone at any faster speed and the bullet deforms or cracks and straight deep penetration is gone. I shake my head at the guys with 454s and 460s that claim they have a viable 200 yard deer gun. Ive yet to meet one that can put 5 shots into a paper plate at 200 yards EVERY time and most struggle to hit it once. If I have to carry a gun as big as a scoped 460 in the woods and I want to shoot 200 yards at living things ill pass and take a good bolt action rifle!! I call it stunt hunting. Wound two or three deer before you can kill one to show your buddys. Sorry guys but the finiky 454 should have died a fast death with the first factory 475 that hit a dealers shelf and I really doubt if one in 50 460s that were sold were sold to knowledgeable gun owners. Most were just pyro shows for young men at the range. If I really wanted one of those BIG smiths (which I don't) it would be a 4 inch 500. It would at least be able to be carried without a wheelbarrow and can push some real formidable bullets to 1300fps.
Educational thread. I do have access to a 454, so I've been following with interest.

Sounds as though a 250 gr. in 454 is the rough equivalent of say a 120 gr. in a .357 mag, and that the very slow powders (2400, H110) are best left for the heavier-for-caliber boolits. Good to know.

[Whiterabbit]

Only quesiton I have, is why does .1" added onto a case make the 454 so much less flexible? 45 colt has a reputation for being among the MOST flexible rounds available!

If I take a 454 and cut it down .1" shorter, would it become more flexible?

[44man]

Only quesiton I have, is why does .1" added onto a case make the 454 so much less flexible? 45 colt has a reputation for being among the MOST flexible rounds available!

If I take a 454 and cut it down .1" shorter, would it become more flexible?
It is the primer only. Dick destroyed many guns looking for the fastest .45 ever. He used duplex and triplex loads, yes a charge of Bullseye to start ignition so I guess he found a LP primer made too much pressure or blew primers.
But since we don't fool with those things and factory loads are not made that way, why the SR primer stuck defies things.
I know for a fact and from experience, a LP mag primer will turn the .454 into what it should have been.
I started reaming primer pockets to a LP but believe me you will go nuts. But it worked. Starting book loads of 296 never failed and we could work up and I went over max to test primers and a Fed 155 never hiccuped at well over 55,000.
Now just cut .460 brass, much better.

[44man]

But then I will agree with Lloyd---WHY? Heavy boolit for elephant or buf.
Then a 1 in 24" twist of most guns makes it a hoax. The twist is a balls to the wall thing. Sorry, I never fell for the hoopla.
So you have the wrong primer and twist rate and want a flexible gun.
Don't blame me. I didn't do it.

[Whiterabbit]

Oh, shoot, I totally forgot about gun twist.

OP, check your twist. ALL my experience is based on a 1-16 twist like the 45 colts. If your 454 is a 1 in 24, everything might be different. Sorry about that. (I worry less about 454 vs 460 cause because 65ksi is 65ksi. But the twist could really bite you)

As for why a heavy bullet, I like it because slower bullets recoil much less (500 grains @ 1370 fps = less recoil than 200 grains @ 2500 fps), and makes it much more cast friendly. I have no qualms taking the 460 pig hunting with an excessively heavy bullet. I don't think many here would have an issue taking a 45/70 pig hunting either. No reason IMO to poh-poh a 454 if a 45/70 is acceptable. That's purely opinion.

If I had a handgun that REQUIRED jacketed bullets, I would sell it immediately. I don't have the money to shoot only jacketed in a handgun. Even my rifles. I only have 3 guns that use only jacketed bullets. They don't get shot as often because of it.

[Harter66]

Comes down to how much you want or need .

I've seen and shot 265 gr in a Ruger Colts at 1200 fps that's plenty for me . I have a 350 gr bullet suitable for the task also that could be pushed inside the Ruger pressures for Colts up to 1000-1100 fps with Unique .
Yes the recoil was like the full tilt 357 , nope I don't care for that either .

You really have 2 choices .
1 run it wide open with 275s and up with big loads of slower powders .
2 set it up to be fun to shoot with Unique or Blue Dot class powders with 230-265 gr bullets and work them up until he gets the feel he wants or tops out .

Based on a current project I don't think that a 350 gr bullet moseying along at 1600 fps out of a 5# revolver would be fun to shoot , it's lost almost all of its appeal in a 6# rifle .

[Whiterabbit]

45 colt ruger only tops a 360 grain bullet out at 1150 fps. push it to 1250-1300 in a 454 case and you've got a "proper" 454 that doesn't "waste" the platform, without going full-snot at 1600 or whatever a 350 grain bullet at 65ksi does. Should be plenty pleasant to shoot if the 454 is long barreled and heavy, but satisfy the recoil junky in anyone. I would imagine...

biggest problem is what Lloyd suggests. 5# revolver feels stupid carrying around for a day, just take a rifle. That relegates the gun to range day fun, where the shooter will get poked lots of fun at unless it seriously drives nails.

Or you are like me and a crappy pistolero and struggle to keep all 5 rounds on a 10" plate at 100 yards for more than a couple cylinders. But I long stopped worrying about people pointing and laughing at me.....

[Lloyd Smale]

what that extra .1 does is give more airspace and less pressures with the same powder charge as a 45 colt. That in turn makes ball powders a bit harder to light off and then you try to do it with a small primer. The round was designed to work good at top end pressures and if heavies are loaded like that it works just fine. Ive owned 3 FA 454s in my life. All three of them were absolutely excellent shooters if I pushed heavies fast. reduced loads and light bullets (lighter then 300 grain) or even light bullets fast changed them from excellent shooters to mediocre shooters.

Kind of like putting 85 octane and pulling two plug wires off a vette. Still runs but not nearly like it was designed to. Even the 454 Alaskan I had with its stubby little 2.5 inch barrel shot 1 1/2 groups at 25 yards with stout loads using the rcbs 300 swcgc cast hard. That's one more big mistake people loading the 454 overlook. they think they can push the same bullet and alloy that works in there 45 colt at 1100 fps to 1500 fps in a 454. I takes HARD bullets to stand up to this and to stand up to hitting bone in an animal without deforming or if made hard enough still kept ductile enough to prevent fracturing.

Working with a 454 compared to the 45 colt is like comparing wrenching on and old 283 to a new z06 corvette. cutting the case back would make downloading easier but you still have the problem with the small primer and twist that aren't ideal for the job. Yes the 45 colt is a flexible round but compare it to a 44 mag with a smaller case capacity and its allways been a bit more accurate for me using 250s at 1000 fps and just as accurate if not more then the 45 at top end. What the 45 buys is a very small increase in velocity when pushed to the limit. But it does it with bullet at the same weight level that have a slightly worse bc. For the most part a 44 pushing a 320 to 1200 will out penetrate a 45 colt loaded the same. As it will if both are loaded with 250s at a 1000. Bottom line is if you really want the best gun to own to shoot both light loads and heavy loads capable of killing anything the 44 mag is king. Allways has been. A guy with a 4-6inch 44 mag on his hip is good to go for anything a handgun can be used for.
Only quesiton I have, is why does .1" added onto a case make the 454 so much less flexible?

If I take a 454 and cut it down .1" shorter, would it become more flexible?

[Boolseye]

What does FA stand for?

[Tatume]

Freedom Arms, a manufacturer of revolvers.

[Tatume]

what that extra .1 does is give more airspace and less pressures with the same powder charge as a 45 colt. That in turn makes ball powders a bit harder to light off and then you try to do it with a small primer.

Using book loads of H110 and Accurate No. 9 that were less than maximum, with bullets weighing between 265 and 325 grains, I have performed the following experiment several times. Load five rounds and begin firing them. On about the third shot a squib occurs. The bullet must then be driven from the barrel. The powder is found to be a yellowish lump at the base of the bullet.

From then until the supply of cartridges so loaded is exhausted, load one at a time and fire. As many as 45 rounds in a row fire normally, with no squibs or hang fires.

The cause is a combination of things. These powders are heavily coated with graphite, making them hard to ignite. They are extremely fine dust, promoting compaction under inertia. There is an airspace, which further promotes compaction.

The sequence of events, in my opinion, is as follows. The first one, two or three cartridges fire, generating recoil. The gunpowder in the remaining cartridges is compacted at the base of the bullet, and the air space in the cartridges separates the powder from the flame of the primer. The compaction itself, the graphite coating, and the distance from the primer combine to cause a failure to ignite. The force of the primer drives the bullet and powder into the barrel.

I know there is an argument that the small rifle primer is itself the culprit, and there may be some merit to this. However, it is the lesser of the influences. The fact that a long sequence of cartridges can be fired without a single misfire so long as they are not subjected to recoil (that is, single loaded), indicates that recoil plays the majority role in the phenomenon.

[Tatume]

P.s. This may also explain why so many loading manuals contain 454 Casull loads with insufficient powder for reliable ignition. Loads are tested in pressure guns, which are single shot firearms. The technicians do not experience the problems that occur in firing the same loads in revolvers.

[454PB]

Using book loads of H110 and Accurate No. 9 that were less than maximum, with bullets weighing between 265 and 325 grains, I have performed the following experiment several times. Load five rounds and begin firing them. On about the third shot a squib occurs. The bullet must then be driven from the barrel. The powder is found to be a yellowish lump at the base of the bullet.

From then until the supply of cartridges so loaded is exhausted, load one at a time and fire. As many as 45 rounds in a row fire normally, with no squibs or hang fires.

The cause is a combination of things. These powders are heavily coated with graphite, making them hard to ignite. They are extremely fine dust, promoting compaction under inertia. There is an airspace, which further promotes compaction.

The sequence of events, in my opinion, is as follows. The first one, two or three cartridges fire, generating recoil. The gunpowder in the remaining cartridges is compacted at the base of the bullet, and the air space in the cartridges separates the powder from the flame of the primer. The compaction itself, the graphite coating, and the distance from the primer combine to cause a failure to ignite. The force of the primer drives the bullet and powder into the barrel.

I know there is an argument that the small rifle primer is itself the culprit, and there may be some merit to this. However, it is the lesser of the influences. The fact that a long sequence of cartridges can be fired without a single misfire so long as they are not subjected to recoil (that is, single loaded), indicates that recoil plays the majority role in the phenomenon.

Your theory sounds logical. Here was one of my adventures:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?20838-454-Casull-Squib&p=232430#post232430

[Whiterabbit]

The fact that a long sequence of cartridges can be fired without a single misfire so long as they are not subjected to recoil (that is, single loaded), indicates that recoil plays the majority role in the phenomenon.

And why not? If you have bullets jumping crimp, you can be inadvertently adding airspace to the case. That is solved by proper case prep and bullet alloy and fit.

I have experienced the same with AA#9, and only using soft alloys exactly what lloyd says not to do in post #35. Use a hard alloy, lots of driving band (IMO this is a requirement), or add a gas check and the problem goes away. That lends further credence to the idea it's recoil based, specifically jumping crimp.

Fix that, and maybe primer choice will become the primer mover.

I guess most people would fix that by crimping the heck out of the round, but I don't like that solution when we have antimony, gas checks, M-dies, and great bullet designs in 45 cal at our disposal.

[Whiterabbit]

well, I have no idea then how they could be related. Not doubting the experience at all. Just no idea why it could happen.

[Lloyd Smale]

I cant see it either. I know in fa guns most bullets that jumped .1 would tie the gun up. Most bullets ride right the end of the cylinder as is. Ive done a lot of experimenting with 110/296 and aa9/wc820. Ive done it in about all the big bore rounds from the 357 to the 500 linebaugh. Whats consistant (or should I say inconsistent) is if you are starting with the starting loads in most manuals using these powders your going to get inconsistent velocitys. Ive seen swings as great a 300 fps doing it. Some insist on using standard primers. that compounds the problem greatly. Start with top end loads and most of the problem goes away. Why? because you have more pressure. In some cases in 45 colt and smaller cases you can even get away with a standard primer. But over my chornograph anyway ive found hands down the best large pistol primer for these powders is a good old cci 350. Now ill swing back to the troublesome 454. Ive ran thousands of them over chronographs too. Ive used about every small rifle primer and small pistol mag primer made with these 4 powder.

What works. For a standard small rifle primer I prefer the ww hands down. It has worked best in about all my loads. But I will allways try a cci small rifle mag and have had good luck with that primer too. I love fed primers but not in the 454 unless your talking the small rifle mag (its about the equivalent of the ww small rifle stad) and you couldn't make me load 454 with any rem primer. You want good consistant 454 rounds and the ability to even download a bit? 44man taught me something on here. Get yourself some smith 460 brass (usually easier to find and as cheap as 454 brass) take it and cut it down to 454 length and you have 454 brass that has a large primer pocket just as it should have been designed. Load it with some good old cci 350s and you can kiss goodby a lot of the idiosyncrasy's of the 454.

As to the recoil causing squibs or misfires. Like I said ive shot thousands over the chronograph and have seen just as many low readings on the first round as I have on the 5th. Now my redhawks had enough room to jump crimp a bit and I guess it could happen with one of them. But if you have good bullet tension and a good firm crimp your not going to have bullets jump unless you shoot once pull that case out and load a fresh one and leave the others in for 40 or 50 shots. Ive shot 500 linebaugh maximuns loaded to the tilt that had absolutely no crimp jumping. The 454 is a 38special compared to that gun.

[Boolseye]

Thanks for your experience, Lloyd.

[z28z34man]

I have another thread in boolit swapping but dose anyone happen to have 50 or so each of there favorite boolits sized and checked that I can purchase off them to try before I buy a mold.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?327369-Boolits-for-a-454

[44man]

Case tension is the key and I never have boolit movement from recoil with the minimum crimp needed. It is not the unfired round, it is the one under the hammer. The SR mag can make a lot of pressure but runs out of fire. Once it pushes powder and the boolit ahead, there is no fire left. The match goes out. Airspace is at the rear, not the front. Recoil can affect it too. Yet not the real reason. It comes down to fire and how much primer compound. We had LP standards, Fed 150 and CCI 300 ignite the .454 but the mags are more accurate. 155 or 350's. It is sustained fire. I see it every night starting the wood stove. We use the fire starters and Carol buys stupid butane lighters. It takes 4 times longer to light the starters then a long wood match. They run out of butane before the fire starts.
Push the pressure front out but lose the flame front and powder will not light. Put a pile of 296 on a chunk of cardboard and hold a match to it. Takes some time to heat to ignition when BP will go right now. Coating on powder. Needed to control burn rates.
Lil'gun has less so it goes quick to over heat a gun.
You need to control burn from one spec of powder to the next. Pressure can aid burn but is not the total answer. Slow powders add velocity as pressure drops in the bore. It keeps burning. Boost to the boolit.

[44man]

Worst thing ever heard is powder is gone in an inch no matter what powder. False as you can get. A longer barrel is always faster with slow powders. A powder column starts at the rear and burns to the front. Powder will be out in the bore to burn. It will sustain pressure.
A nut case is a .500 S&W in a 2" barrel. Or a Ruger Alaskan. stupid, stupid. Powder burns in the air. So you look for unique loads, what is the caliber made for?
Plus the boolit still spins right with the lost velocity. Dumbest thing ever is a twist will spin the same from 2" as it does from 6". Sure if velocity is the same. can you do it?
a .50 440 gr needs 64,800 rpm's for stability. 1350 fps. Drop to 1000 and get 48,000. That is a 1 in 15" twist. Slow the twist to to 1 in 20' and a boolit at 1350 fps is only 48,600 rpm's. At 1000 fps it is 36,000. 10 yard gun.
I don't make this stuff up. Lloyd has a handle on it.

[Boolseye]

My dad (me and the OP have similar situations) says he's gonna stick with Lil' Gun for his 300 and 350 grain slugs in the Casull. I passed along all this info, though, he appreciates it. You guys go deep on this stuff, it's interesting.

44man, y'ever use a little propane torch to start the fire? Works good in a pinch.

[Lloyd Smale]

the last powder id use in a 454 is lilgun. FA wont even warrantee one that has forcing cone erosion that has been shot with lilgun.

[Boolseye]

Yeah? Good to know, I'll pass that along. It's become his favorite .45 Colt hot load powder. What powder do you recommend? Does that apply for rifles?

[44man]

Yeah? Good to know, I'll pass that along. It's become his favorite .45 Colt hot load powder. What powder do you recommend? Does that apply for rifles?
True, burns HOT. 12 moderately spaced shots in a Freedom and I could start the wood stove with the barrel. I suppose the same in a rifle. The powder was made for the .410 shotgun.
Go to 296.

[leftiye]

Go to 1680.

[Lloyd Smale]

if I could only have one powder for the 454 it would hands down be 110/296. Second choice would be aa9. If I wanted a powder to down loads some but still could give me some pretty decent higher velocity's it would be 2400.

[Boolseye]

Do those ignition problems happen with 300-350 grain slugs and max loads of H110/296? I mean with a standard 454 case, not a cut-down 460. Is there any room for downloading with these combos? 5-10%? Thanks in advance.

[44man]

Do those ignition problems happen with 300-350 grain slugs and max loads of H110/296? I mean with a standard 454 case, not a cut-down 460. Is there any room for downloading with these combos? 5-10%? Thanks in advance.
NO, max loads work 100%. Do not download. If I remember 1/2 gr under max with 296 worked but not lower.
If you want any reduction use a different powder.

[Boolseye]

OK, thanks.

[Lloyd Smale]

Heres my opinion. At full book levels it will work fine. Preferably use either a ww std primer or some kind of a mag rifle primer. At full book levels believe it or not your already shooting downloaded stuff. The 454 was first designed and loaded hotter then it is now. Most loads in the loading manuals are watered down from the loads we used to use. So if you really want it to work right and have good ignition in even cold weather stick with the top end loads in the manual. If you want to download buy some 2400 and do it with that.
Do those ignition problems happen with 300-350 grain slugs and max loads of H110/296? I mean with a standard 454 case, not a cut-down 460. Is there any room for downloading with these combos? 5-10%? Thanks in advance.

[Boolseye]

Thanks Lloyd

[Whiterabbit]

Do those ignition problems happen with 300-350 grain slugs and max loads of H110/296? I mean with a standard 454 case, not a cut-down 460. Is there any room for downloading with these combos? 5-10%? Thanks in advance.

You have tons of room to download. Here's the best picture I have ever seen to illustrate this:

http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/images/category658/357%20mag%20v%20max%20cap.jpg

Two different cases, but with identical powder charges and primers, are identical. This is shooting a 357 max using a 357 mag case. What you are talking about is doing the exact opposite. shooting either a 45 colt Ruger only, or a slightly-hotter-than-45-colt-ruger-only using a 454 case.

The thing you need to wrap your brain around is that you don't seat the bullet to the crimp groove. It's H110, the rule is simple: Seat the bullet down onto the powder for 100% case fill or even a teeny smidge of compression, and you'll get your good ignition. It never hurts to take out insurance in the form of a magnum primer either. But at 100% case fill, you are fine.

There is the illusion that an excessive roll crimp into a crimp groove or grease groove is required to prevent crimp jumping, but nothing could be further from the truth. If you have lots of driving band, a hard bullet, a gas check, and a good expander (RCBS, Lyman M, etc) you have all you need in the form of case tension, and can just taper crimp enough to remove the belling and an 8th turn more.

It only makes no sense if you have to seat SO deep the case mouth is over the bullet ogive or something absurd in the geometry. Your common sense will guide you strongly here. You have wiggle room in the tenths of inches, not in inches. Your warning bells are simple: case mouth over the ogive, powder charge that does not follow linear extrapolation from lots and lots of data you pull from every possible source and model, compare to 45 colt or 460 data, it should "make sense".

Finally if you clearly end up in 45 colt ruger only territory, it's also nonsense. Just shoot a blackhawk.

I'm not saying you can download willy-nilly. But take a look at that drawing above. seriously. Grab some graph paper and draw up the exact same thing with hodgdon load data and measurements you take in your reloading room of what a 45 colt ruger-only load looks like in terms of powder capacity and how much air is in the case after seating, and do the same for hodgdon load data for 454. You'll see exactly where your wiggle room is right there on the page, and let airspace and bullet fit (in the case) be your guide.

If you aren't comfy with that, then listen to everyone else here to the T. Never download H110 below your 3% hodgdon says, use a mag primer, only follow book loads, and the moment you have an ignition issue: harden up your lead, increase your crimp, polish the expander ball a little, use a more powerful primer, and you'll improve reliability. And if you want to download, use 2400.

[Whiterabbit]

The other way to safely download H110 with 100% confidence AND use a large primer:

Just go buy some 45 colt brass and load Hodgdon spec ruger-only loads. They work fine in a 454 revolver, I promise. They aren't anywhere near the pressure ceiling of the 454 loadings.

[Boolseye]

Good stuff. Hope the OP's getting something out of this, I know I am.

[tygar]

I've been reading this for a while & have had .454s since about 82. Got several from 5" to 10" from FA & talked to Dick & his son, numerous times, about everything from loading, shooting & their production etc.

The one thing on loading/shooting their guns they said, is to use their 260gr for everything but dangerous game & 300s for dangerous. For either, put all the H110 in the case you can & still crimp the bullet so it would not jump.

They said you can't put enough in it to even begin to hurt the gun & the Cassul was designed to be shot hot. They "only" recommended H110 (not counting Unique type loads for wussy loads).

I bought, & still have a few, many of their jacketed flat points in 260 & 300 & brass (small rifle primer - they said SRmags) & have been shooting cast at 16+BHN for yrs w/GC with no problem.

That is in Freedom Arms guns!!!

I have done close to that in Rugers without breaking anything. Havn't ever tried to push it in Taurus RBs.

BTW, they said they could push 1900 w/300 & over 2k w/260s. I havn't crony mine in yrs so don't know what I got, but out of the 10" it was about those figures if I remember correctly.

I have tried the other powders & for full power loads, can't find anything better than H110. Lighter loads, several powders work good.

I have also tried about every kind & weight of bullet that works in a .454, & still go with the 260 & 300s Dick recommended. (+/- a little on various cast) as they just seem to be "right".

If you want to shoot light, you can always shoot LC in the gun.

[Lloyd Smale]

only thing ill argue is in big cases like the 454 475 500s ect you need BOTH good case tension and a good roll crimp to not only prevent bullet jump but to insure good ignition. My chronograph has proved that many times. You don't want an overly heavy crimp because most of those guns are chambered so tight that if you crimp to hard they wont chamber. But a good firm roll crimp doesn't hurt a thing on any revolver round and in the case of big cases or slow burning ball powders its going to help.
You have tons of room to download. Here's the best picture I have ever seen to illustrate this:

http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/images/category658/357%20mag%20v%20max%20cap.jpg

Two different cases, but with identical powder charges and primers, are identical. This is shooting a 357 max using a 357 mag case. What you are talking about is doing the exact opposite. shooting either a 45 colt Ruger only, or a slightly-hotter-than-45-colt-ruger-only using a 454 case.

The thing you need to wrap your brain around is that you don't seat the bullet to the crimp groove. It's H110, the rule is simple: Seat the bullet down onto the powder for 100% case fill or even a teeny smidge of compression, and you'll get your good ignition. It never hurts to take out insurance in the form of a magnum primer either. But at 100% case fill, you are fine.

There is the illusion that an excessive roll crimp into a crimp groove or grease groove is required to prevent crimp jumping, but nothing could be further from the truth. If you have lots of driving band, a hard bullet, a gas check, and a good expander (RCBS, Lyman M, etc) you have all you need in the form of case tension, and can just taper crimp enough to remove the belling and an 8th turn more.

It only makes no sense if you have to seat SO deep the case mouth is over the bullet ogive or something absurd in the geometry. Your common sense will guide you strongly here. You have wiggle room in the tenths of inches, not in inches. Your warning bells are simple: case mouth over the ogive, powder charge that does not follow linear extrapolation from lots and lots of data you pull from every possible source and model, compare to 45 colt or 460 data, it should "make sense".

Finally if you clearly end up in 45 colt ruger only territory, it's also nonsense. Just shoot a blackhawk.

I'm not saying you can download willy-nilly. But take a look at that drawing above. seriously. Grab some graph paper and draw up the exact same thing with hodgdon load data and measurements you take in your reloading room of what a 45 colt ruger-only load looks like in terms of powder capacity and how much air is in the case after seating, and do the same for hodgdon load data for 454. You'll see exactly where your wiggle room is right there on the page, and let airspace and bullet fit (in the case) be your guide.

If you aren't comfy with that, then listen to everyone else here to the T. Never download H110 below your 3% hodgdon says, use a mag primer, only follow book loads, and the moment you have an ignition issue: harden up your lead, increase your crimp, polish the expander ball a little, use a more powerful primer, and you'll improve reliability. And if you want to download, use 2400.

[Lloyd Smale]

Again its design thing. The thing that sold FA guns when they first came out was velocity and lots of it. Fast light bullets made big numbers. They are even twisted with that thought in mind which is another reason they don't do well at reduced levels. . Bottom line is if you think that jacketed 265s at 1700fps are better big game loads then 300-350 cast at 1400 fps ive got a bridge for you. Kind of like when Roy weatherby came out with the 257wby and went hunting all forms of animals with 87s and 100s. even he said at the end of it that hes lucky he didn't get killed!

I wont sit here and say that a jacketed 265 at warp speed wont kill a deer. About anything will kill a deer but ill be @@@@@ if id go after a grizzly or even moose or elk with a 454 loaded with 265s. Your going to get poor penetration and ALOT of blood shot meat. This is a cast bullet fourm and id bet most here shoot cast not jacketed in there 454s. That said going over 1300-1400 fps can actually hurt bullet performace. Most alloys just don't hold up well to hitting big bone. Deform a bullet and they will not penetrate straight and the BIGGEST advantage to cast bullets is penetration. They might not make a violent wound channel but there longer straight wound channel makes up for it. They will break big bone where a jacketed wont, especially one at warp speed. So if I can push a 300-350 grain lfn to 1400 fps what would be the advantage to pushing a 260 cast slug to the same speed.

Please don't say it shoots flatter. A 300 at 1400 shoots plenty flat enough for 100 yard work and unless your some kind of trick shooter nobody has business shooting live game with a revolver much father then that anyway. If your one of the idiots that blazes away at 200 yards at deer with your revolver then set your zero to the range your going to shoot or do like you should be doing and learn your gun and load and what hold over you need at various ranges. Bottom line is with ANY handgun youd better be a real good judge of EXACT ranges out past a 100 yards. Nope I really don't care what FA says to load. there trying to sell guns and ammo. Don't get me wrong I have a lot of respect for bob baker. Hes a good friend of one of my friends. But IMO your doing yourself a disservice loading any bullet lighter then a 300 be it jacketed or cast.

You don't have to listen to me. but like 44 man my opinions come from actually killing things not some recommendation I'm passing on from someone else or something I gleamed off the internet. Yes I will listen to other opinions from people I respect (like bob baker) but I pay a lot more attention to that animal laying dead in front of me. Ive killed things with the 454. Not as many things as I have with the 475 or 500 linebaughs and surely not as many as I have with the 44 or 45s. theres no magic to the 454 its just a hot 45 colt that buys you maybe 200 fps more with the same bullet weight and that my friend doesn't buy you much. I'm not taking my 257 out to kill big game with 87 grain bullets at 4000 fps and I'm not taking my 454 out with a jackteted 265 at warp speed either. Why would I? Kind of like taking a corvette to a mud bog race.

I've been reading this for a while & have had .454s since about 82. Got several from 5" to 10" from FA & talked to Dick & his son, numerous times, about everything from loading, shooting & their production etc.

The one thing on loading/shooting their guns they said, is to use their 260gr for everything but dangerous game & 300s for dangerous. For either, put all the H110 in the case you can & still crimp the bullet so it would not jump.

They said you can't put enough in it to even begin to hurt the gun & the Cassul was designed to be shot hot. They "only" recommended H110 (not counting Unique type loads for wussy loads).

I bought, & still have a few, many of their jacketed flat points in 260 & 300 & brass (small rifle primer - they said SRmags) & have been shooting cast at 16+BHN for yrs w/GC with no problem.

That is in Freedom Arms guns!!!

I have done close to that in Rugers without breaking anything. Havn't ever tried to push it in Taurus RBs.

BTW, they said they could push 1900 w/300 & over 2k w/260s. I havn't crony mine in yrs so don't know what I got, but out of the 10" it was about those figures if I remember correctly.

I have tried the other powders & for full power loads, can't find anything better than H110. Lighter loads, several powders work good.

I have also tried about every kind & weight of bullet that works in a .454, & still go with the 260 & 300s Dick recommended. (+/- a little on various cast) as they just seem to be "right".

If you want to shoot light, you can always shoot LC in the gun.

[Boolseye]

I've been reading this for a while & have had .454s since about 82. Got several from 5" to 10" from FA & talked to Dick & his son, numerous times, about everything from loading, shooting & their production etc.

That's pretty interesting, that you had a chance to talk with him about his design. Thanks for your input.

For myself, I shoot open sights. I can imagine a shot at a deer out to about 75 yards with a Super Blackhawk 7 1/2", no more. Anything further I want the gun against my shoulder.

[tygar]

As Ronald Regan once said, "there you go again".

Did I say ANYTHING about any of the items you were using to refute in post?

NO, & there is nothing to refute.

I did not say anything about hunting or any of your other posts.

I was addressing using H110 & how to use it, it merely posted what Cassul's had told me & what I had found that worked for me.

Again, you need to actually "read" what was posted, so you can at least respond to those particular statements.

I said they said use the 300 for dangerous, or big like moose. I didn't specifically state that but figured it would be understood.

Just "where" did I say it was "better" than what you or anyone else said???

Also, have you ever tried any of their 260 or 300s? They expand great & I have confidence they would have killed just fine. DID I SAY anything about those bullets or any others utility or performance?

I stated what "they" said about using H110 & mag primers, & the speed they had achieved & that I had come close to it in the 10".

DID I say it was better, best or the hammer of God? NO!

Did I not say that I also use cast? Actually, that is what I use 95% of the time, & that I have tried most weights & found that, "for me" the 260-300s are what I prefer.

You have never heard me say anything about what kills good in a pistol - have you?!

I'm a rifle hunter & will match my experience with anyone on their performance for N. American game.

Handguns are only backup for me while hunting or fishing or for personnel defense. Again, on PD, I'll match my experience on how they work. BUT that is not what we were talking about or what I had posted.

You know, I was going to quote your post about the bullets being seated to the powder & say it was right on, but didn't because I figured you would find something to bitchhh about.

So, you did anyway.

Of course, it was meaningless, as per usual, it had nothing to do with my post.

Grow up
QUOTE
Again its design thing. The thing that sold FA guns when they first came out was velocity and lots of it. Fast light bullets made big numbers. They are even twisted with that thought in mind which is another reason they don't do well at reduced levels. . Bottom line is if you think that jacketed 265s at 1700fps are better big game loads then 300-350 cast at 1400 fps ive got a bridge for you. Kind of like when Roy weatherby came out with the 257wby and went hunting all forms of animals with 87s and 100s. even he said at the end of it that hes lucky he didn't get killed!

I wont sit here and say that a jacketed 265 at warp speed wont kill a deer. About anything will kill a deer but ill be @@@@@ if id go after a grizzly or even moose or elk with a 454 loaded with 265s. Your going to get poor penetration and ALOT of blood shot meat. This is a cast bullet fourm and id bet most here shoot cast not jacketed in there 454s. That said going over 1300-1400 fps can actually hurt bullet performace. Most alloys just don't hold up well to hitting big bone. Deform a bullet and they will not penetrate straight and the BIGGEST advantage to cast bullets is penetration. They might not make a violent wound channel but there longer straight wound channel makes up for it. They will break big bone where a jacketed wont, especially one at warp speed. So if I can push a 300-350 grain lfn to 1400 fps what would be the advantage to pushing a 260 cast slug to the same speed.

Please don't say it shoots flatter. A 300 at 1400 shoots plenty flat enough for 100 yard work and unless your some kind of trick shooter nobody has business shooting live game with a revolver much father then that anyway. If your one of the idiots that blazes away at 200 yards at deer with your revolver then set your zero to the range your going to shoot or do like you should be doing and learn your gun and load and what hold over you need at various ranges. Bottom line is with ANY handgun youd better be a real good judge of EXACT ranges out past a 100 yards. Nope I really don't care what FA says to load. there trying to sell guns and ammo. Don't get me wrong I have a lot of respect for bob baker. Hes a good friend of one of my friends. But IMO your doing yourself a disservice loading any bullet lighter then a 300 be it jacketed or cast.

You don't have to listen to me. but like 44 man my opinions come from actually killing things not some recommendation I'm passing on from someone else or something I gleamed off the internet. Yes I will listen to other opinions from people I respect (like bob baker) but I pay a lot more attention to that animal laying dead in front of me. Ive killed things with the 454. Not as many things as I have with the 475 or 500 linebaughs and surely not as many as I have with the 44 or 45s. theres no magic to the 454 its just a hot 45 colt that buys you maybe 200 fps more with the same bullet weight and that my friend doesn't buy you much. I'm not taking my 257 out to kill big game with 87 grain bullets at 4000 fps and I'm not taking my 454 out with a jackteted 265 at warp speed either. Why would I? Kind of like taking a corvette to a mud bog race. QUOTE


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by tygar http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=3951361#post3951361)
I've been reading this for a while & have had .454s since about 82. Got several from 5" to 10" from FA & talked to Dick & his son, numerous times, about everything from loading, shooting & their production etc.

The one thing on loading/shooting their guns they said, is to use their 260gr for everything but dangerous game & 300s for dangerous. For either, put all the H110 in the case you can & still crimp the bullet so it would not jump.

They said you can't put enough in it to even begin to hurt the gun & the Cassul was designed to be shot hot. They "only" recommended H110 (not counting Unique type loads for wussy loads).

I bought, & still have a few, many of their jacketed flat points in 260 & 300 & brass (small rifle primer - they said SRmags) & have been shooting cast at 16+BHN for yrs w/GC with no problem.

That is in Freedom Arms guns!!!

I have done close to that in Rugers without breaking anything. Havn't ever tried to push it in Taurus RBs.

BTW, they said they could push 1900 w/300 & over 2k w/260s. I havn't crony mine in yrs so don't know what I got, but out of the 10" it was about those figures if I remember correctly.

I have tried the other powders & for full power loads, can't find anything better than H110. Lighter loads, several powders work good.

I have also tried about every kind & weight of bullet that works in a .454, & still go with the 260 & 300s Dick recommended. (+/- a little on various cast) as they just seem to be "right".

If you want to shoot light, you can always shoot LC in the gun.

[44man]

I might use the lightest crimp of anyone on the big guns, just fold to the bottom of the crimp groove and that is not much with Lee boolits. I have run a round through 3 cylinders full without movement because of case tension.
The boolit opens the crimp as it moves so I don't want it so tight it ruins a boolit. I found many cases on the line with crimps still on them.
When I had to buy boolits from cast Precision they told me a 335 gr was a good start with the .454 and top end with a .45 Colt. The .45 always worked like a hammer on deer at around 1160 fps. The .44 mag with a heavy at 1316 has never failed me. Any larger I have is a problem with just a hole so more consideration has to be given boolit construction.
Unlike many, I shoot a harder boolit that fits. I had the wrong impression myself, thinking faster was better with the same boolits. "All you need is a flat nose." Bigger the better too, Boy did that prove false. A WLN or a Keith can kill faster then a WFN.
It depends on boolit construction, weight and velocity. A very heavy boolit can poke a hole too easy so it needs some upset to slow it. One famous hunter long ago termed it "dwell time."
Need a harder boolit the faster it is shot so if anyone thinks 1800 fps or more will work better, you might be wrong, the same boolit at 1100 to 1300 is a lot better. At some point you have a sharp stick, like a field point through a deer. They put blades on arrows for a reason and I have seen the tiny things they sell now fail. Can't tune a bow with the velocity and light arrows when 180 fps with a heavy arrow still works. It is the one sight pin for all ranges now, must shoot flat.
How much different an arrow? Not much, cast is an arrow too.
I can hit steel at 500 meters with my revolvers but to hunt over 100 yards is insane since energy is gone and you need energy in the right place. The purpose of big magnum rifles is distance that most hunters can't make use of anyway unless you know the gun inside out. I grew up before range finders but knew every field to every chuck hole. I knew my rifles.
Too many here use mags, 7mm to 300's and shoot 30 yards to make burger squeezed from a sponge. They kill less then a guy with a 30-30. Tracked one a mile for a neighbor with a hole you could stick your head in. No blood trail.

[Lloyd Smale]

looks to me like its you that's taking this personal and need to grow up. Neither of us designed the round or the gun and any weaknesses in the platform are neither of our faults. I'm just passing on info to help someone buying or loading one with some real world experinces shooting them for 30 years and killing animals not targets. If you don't agree then don't do it that way. But in no way was I making ANY kind of a personal attack against you personaly. If you cant handle someone not agreeing with your opinion a fourm like this with MANY experienced shooters with slightly different opinion is a place you should maybe stay away from. Personaly I like it when others have opinions different then mine because ive learned from them. My opinions are based on MY experiences. I'm not looking for any cheerleaders or any pats on the back for my opinion and maybe you should take it with the same attitude and lighten up. Or at least put me on your ignore list if what I posts bothers you. You wont be the first and sure wont be the last .
As Ronald Regan once said, "there you go again".

Did I say ANYTHING about any of the items you were using to refute in post?

NO, & there is nothing to refute.

I did not say anything about hunting or any of your other posts.

I was addressing using H110 & how to use it, it merely posted what Cassul's had told me & what I had found that worked for me.

Again, you need to actually "read" what was posted, so you can at least respond to those particular statements.

I said they said use the 300 for dangerous, or big like moose. I didn't specifically state that but figured it would be understood.

Just "where" did I say it was "better" than what you or anyone else said???

Also, have you ever tried any of their 260 or 300s? They expand great & I have confidence they would have killed just fine. DID I SAY anything about those bullets or any others utility or performance?

I stated what "they" said about using H110 & mag primers, & the speed they had achieved & that I had come close to it in the 10".

DID I say it was better, best or the hammer of God? NO!

Did I not say that I also use cast? Actually, that is what I use 95% of the time, & that I have tried most weights & found that, "for me" the 260-300s are what I prefer.

You have never heard me say anything about what kills good in a pistol - have you?!

I'm a rifle hunter & will match my experience with anyone on their performance for N. American game.

Handguns are only backup for me while hunting or fishing or for personnel defense. Again, on PD, I'll match my experience on how they work. BUT that is not what we were talking about or what I had posted.

You know, I was going to quote your post about the bullets being seated to the powder & say it was right on, but didn't because I figured you would find something to bitchhh about.

So, you did anyway.

Of course, it was meaningless, as per usual, it had nothing to do with my post.

Grow up
QUOTE
Again its design thing. The thing that sold FA guns when they first came out was velocity and lots of it. Fast light bullets made big numbers. They are even twisted with that thought in mind which is another reason they don't do well at reduced levels. . Bottom line is if you think that jacketed 265s at 1700fps are better big game loads then 300-350 cast at 1400 fps ive got a bridge for you. Kind of like when Roy weatherby came out with the 257wby and went hunting all forms of animals with 87s and 100s. even he said at the end of it that hes lucky he didn't get killed!

I wont sit here and say that a jacketed 265 at warp speed wont kill a deer. About anything will kill a deer but ill be @@@@@ if id go after a grizzly or even moose or elk with a 454 loaded with 265s. Your going to get poor penetration and ALOT of blood shot meat. This is a cast bullet fourm and id bet most here shoot cast not jacketed in there 454s. That said going over 1300-1400 fps can actually hurt bullet performace. Most alloys just don't hold up well to hitting big bone. Deform a bullet and they will not penetrate straight and the BIGGEST advantage to cast bullets is penetration. They might not make a violent wound channel but there longer straight wound channel makes up for it. They will break big bone where a jacketed wont, especially one at warp speed. So if I can push a 300-350 grain lfn to 1400 fps what would be the advantage to pushing a 260 cast slug to the same speed.

Please don't say it shoots flatter. A 300 at 1400 shoots plenty flat enough for 100 yard work and unless your some kind of trick shooter nobody has business shooting live game with a revolver much father then that anyway. If your one of the idiots that blazes away at 200 yards at deer with your revolver then set your zero to the range your going to shoot or do like you should be doing and learn your gun and load and what hold over you need at various ranges. Bottom line is with ANY handgun youd better be a real good judge of EXACT ranges out past a 100 yards. Nope I really don't care what FA says to load. there trying to sell guns and ammo. Don't get me wrong I have a lot of respect for bob baker. Hes a good friend of one of my friends. But IMO your doing yourself a disservice loading any bullet lighter then a 300 be it jacketed or cast.

You don't have to listen to me. but like 44 man my opinions come from actually killing things not some recommendation I'm passing on from someone else or something I gleamed off the internet. Yes I will listen to other opinions from people I respect (like bob baker) but I pay a lot more attention to that animal laying dead in front of me. Ive killed things with the 454. Not as many things as I have with the 475 or 500 linebaughs and surely not as many as I have with the 44 or 45s. theres no magic to the 454 its just a hot 45 colt that buys you maybe 200 fps more with the same bullet weight and that my friend doesn't buy you much. I'm not taking my 257 out to kill big game with 87 grain bullets at 4000 fps and I'm not taking my 454 out with a jackteted 265 at warp speed either. Why would I? Kind of like taking a corvette to a mud bog race. QUOTE


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by tygar http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=3951361#post3951361)
I've been reading this for a while & have had .454s since about 82. Got several from 5" to 10" from FA & talked to Dick & his son, numerous times, about everything from loading, shooting & their production etc.

The one thing on loading/shooting their guns they said, is to use their 260gr for everything but dangerous game & 300s for dangerous. For either, put all the H110 in the case you can & still crimp the bullet so it would not jump.

They said you can't put enough in it to even begin to hurt the gun & the Cassul was designed to be shot hot. They "only" recommended H110 (not counting Unique type loads for wussy loads).

I bought, & still have a few, many of their jacketed flat points in 260 & 300 & brass (small rifle primer - they said SRmags) & have been shooting cast at 16+BHN for yrs w/GC with no problem.

That is in Freedom Arms guns!!!

I have done close to that in Rugers without breaking anything. Havn't ever tried to push it in Taurus RBs.

BTW, they said they could push 1900 w/300 & over 2k w/260s. I havn't crony mine in yrs so don't know what I got, but out of the 10" it was about those figures if I remember correctly.

I have tried the other powders & for full power loads, can't find anything better than H110. Lighter loads, several powders work good.

I have also tried about every kind & weight of bullet that works in a .454, & still go with the 260 & 300s Dick recommended. (+/- a little on various cast) as they just seem to be "right".

If you want to shoot light, you can always shoot LC in the gun.

[Lloyd Smale]

nothing but truth in that one. Another poster that post his own experiences. We don't allways agree with in some of the minor stuff but basically he has found out the same things I have.
I might use the lightest crimp of anyone on the big guns, just fold to the bottom of the crimp groove and that is not much with Lee boolits. I have run a round through 3 cylinders full without movement because of case tension.
The boolit opens the crimp as it moves so I don't want it so tight it ruins a boolit. I found many cases on the line with crimps still on them.
When I had to buy boolits from cast Precision they told me a 335 gr was a good start with the .454 and top end with a .45 Colt. The .45 always worked like a hammer on deer at around 1160 fps. The .44 mag with a heavy at 1316 has never failed me. Any larger I have is a problem with just a hole so more consideration has to be given boolit construction.
Unlike many, I shoot a harder boolit that fits. I had the wrong impression myself, thinking faster was better with the same boolits. "All you need is a flat nose." Bigger the better too, Boy did that prove false. A WLN or a Keith can kill faster then a WFN.
It depends on boolit construction, weight and velocity. A very heavy boolit can poke a hole too easy so it needs some upset to slow it. One famous hunter long ago termed it "dwell time."
Need a harder boolit the faster it is shot so if anyone thinks 1800 fps or more will work better, you might be wrong, the same boolit at 1100 to 1300 is a lot better. At some point you have a sharp stick, like a field point through a deer. They put blades on arrows for a reason and I have seen the tiny things they sell now fail. Can't tune a bow with the velocity and light arrows when 180 fps with a heavy arrow still works. It is the one sight pin for all ranges now, must shoot flat.
How much different an arrow? Not much, cast is an arrow too.
I can hit steel at 500 meters with my revolvers but to hunt over 100 yards is insane since energy is gone and you need energy in the right place. The purpose of big magnum rifles is distance that most hunters can't make use of anyway unless you know the gun inside out. I grew up before range finders but knew every field to every chuck hole. I knew my rifles.
Too many here use mags, 7mm to 300's and shoot 30 yards to make burger squeezed from a sponge. They kill less then a guy with a 30-30. Tracked one a mile for a neighbor with a hole you could stick your head in. No blood trail.

[tygar]

looks to me like its you that's taking this personal and need to grow up. Neither of us designed the round or the gun and any weaknesses in the platform are neither of our faults. I'm just passing on info to help someone buying or loading one with some real world experinces shooting them for 30 years and killing animals not targets. If you don't agree then don't do it that way. But in no way was I making ANY kind of a personal attack against you personaly. If you cant handle someone not agreeing with your opinion a fourm like this with MANY experienced shooters with slightly different opinion is a place you should maybe stay away from. Personaly I like it when others have opinions different then mine because ive learned from them. My opinions are based on MY experiences. I'm not looking for any cheerleaders or any pats on the back for my opinion and maybe you should take it with the same attitude and lighten up. Or at least put me on your ignore list if what I posts bothers you. You wont be the first and sure wont be the last .

BS! You quoted me, then proceeded to use your usual know it all rantings to infer I was saying those things. I don't quote you, so don't quote me. I don't want to even see your BS any more. Be very smart & leave it be.

[No_1]

Keep it civil

[Harter66]

Now I'm wondering about my 460 rifle ........

[Lloyd Smale]

Nothing I posted was incorrect. Hardly a know it all as its all common knowledge. Sorry your feelings got hurt. It wasn't my intention. Like I said just use the ignore button and your problem is fixed.
BS! You quoted me, then proceeded to use your usual know it all rantings to infer I was saying those things. I don't quote you, so don't quote me. I don't want to even see your BS any more. Be very smart & leave it be.

[Lloyd Smale]

I think a 460 rifle is a cool project. Basically a 4570 that shoots 452 bullets. Loaded with a good 350-400 grain bullet at 1400fps or so it would kill anything and not knock the heck out of your shoulder either. Or 450 bushmaster power in a rifle that doesn't have a gas system to foul with cast bullets. .
Now I'm wondering about my 460 rifle ........

[Whiterabbit]

Now I'm wondering about my 460 rifle ........


I think a 460 rifle is a cool project. Basically a 4570 that shoots 452 bullets. Loaded with a good 350-400 grain bullet at 1400fps or so it would kill anything and not knock the heck out of your shoulder either. Or 450 bushmaster power in a rifle that doesn't have a gas system to foul with cast bullets. .

425 grain ranchdog GC with 32 grains of IMR4198 for 1430 fps and whatever magnum primer you like. As long as the barrel as a 16 inch twist. Just sayin'. :)

Or a 500 grain bullet (LEE and RCBS both make a great BPCR mold) and 31 grains of IMR4198 for 1370 fps. PB OK, even preferred.

H works too, and you can use H110 too if you want. The rifle lets you use however much H110 you want up to 65ksi. Just have to (broken record) seat onto the powder.

Kinda off topic for a 454 thread, but thought I'd mention...

(recoil is a sweetheart with IMR4198, too)

((if I am not mistaken you can buy a Ruger #1 in 460...))

[44man]

Keep it civil
I agree. I have been down that road but learned respect no matter what. I have argued about a process many times, never personal but it still hurt some. Now I just express an opinion nobody has to follow.
Maybe my favorite saying is TEST and see.
Lloyd has always told truth. I have around 563 deer kills and Lloyd might have more, much more. I was involved in farm and orchard control and found what works and fails.
I have lost deer from following things I should have ignored. Even just sport hunting I have been wrong and hate to admit being stupid but it is life as we know it.
Nothing you ever do will teach you anything until you fail. I have failed and it never goes away.

[44man]

Now I'm wondering about my 460 rifle ........
Not a problem, it works. Just don't get explosive with bullets or too hard. I went to two part boolits. Even then I did not use pure lead for the nose but a mix of WW with pure. Still ruined a deer.188186

[Boolseye]

Civility is what separates this forum from many of the others out there, that and a lot of knowledgeable people. I think it has a lot to do with the nature of our craft.

[44man]

I think it is because we are friends most of all. Been in situations where I was cussed in PM's but talking or calling on the phone has showed a good man. Another friend.
In all the sites I have 3 that hate me total. Can't take truth. It still hurts they will not forgive but it is what it is. I apologize and am too old to have an enemy.
I hate to see any of you get out of sorts. What gain?
Tygar, if you met Lloyd or me you might find we will do anything on earth for you. So will anyone here so you must get humble. You show bad to all others.
I want to see a man that says he is sorry.
I will never, ever go to the complaint forum because you might have ate too much garlic or the wife beat you.

[Boolseye]

People are sensitive and miscommunication can easily happen. If I were to be a mediator, I would suggest for everybody to drop their hackles and take a deep breath, try to remember why we're all here. Seek more to listen than to be heard.

[Lloyd Smale]

Harter one more thing to play with in your rifle is 459 bullets. Back in the day before the big heavy bullet 45 colt thing kicked off and molds became common place many of us sized down or 4570 bullets to get heavys. Sometimes it took having two dies one a 452 and a 455 but what Id do is compromise and use a 454 die and just one swipe through the start. IF I had a gun they wouldn't chamber in (tight throated FA 454s mostly) Id then size to 452. But most rugers ran the 454s just fine. Ive shot many a one to two inch 50 yard groups with those sized down bullets. For you it would give you access to heavies without going the custom mold thing.
Now I'm wondering about my 460 rifle ........

[No_1]

I will echo what other have said. Civility is key to progress. This time of year (dead of winter) as well as July / August (dead if summer) are the worse times on this board due to what I will assume is cabin fever.

Let's get back to the discussion. I have an 10" open sighted Encore barrel, 150 pieces brass, various powders, various primers, and some 300 Gr. Keith's waiting in the wings....

[44man]

Life is funny. There are not two ways to do anything. Only one! to change a tire or brakes is done one way. To wire or solder water pipes is one way only.
Shooting is different, we have hundreds of powders, alloys, primers and guns of every stripe. How in the world do we make it work? It comes to experience over many years.
Cast is junk, why shoot it? I killed a deer---WOW, now I am an expert.
But everyone has different results with different. I don't shoot deer with a pinch of unique either but does it work? I suppose it does. I don't buy a .500 for Unique but might make a mistake with it too. Learn and tell it. Fail and tell why.

[Lloyd Smale]

load em up and let us know how they shoot. To be honest ive only owned one encore. It was a 410/45 that I bought for dad. He used it mostly with 410s for years till he got to old to ride his 4 wheeler then he gave it back. First load I shot in it was the last load I tried in it. My old go to 45 colt load of 9.5 grains of herco and a 255 rcbs swc. Gun shot into an inch at 25 yards. Always heard accuracy was poor with that long bullet jump but like a lot of times you cant always believe what you read. Id bet that 454 encore is a tack driver.
I will echo what other have said. Civility is key to progress. This time of year (dead of winter) as well as July / August (dead if summer) are the worse times on this board due to what I will assume is cabin fever.

Let's get back to the discussion. I have an 10" open sighted Encore barrel, 150 pieces brass, various powders, various primers, and some 300 Gr. Keith's waiting in the wings....

[Boolseye]

My dad has a Bullberry Encore barrel getting chambered in 454 too. He loves those barrels.
The Encore is a good platform.

[Whiterabbit]

Harter one more thing to play with in your rifle is 459 bullets. Back in the day before the big heavy bullet 45 colt thing kicked off and molds became common place many of us sized down or 4570 bullets to get heavys. Sometimes it took having two dies one a 452 and a 455 but what Id do is compromise and use a 454 die and just one swipe through the start. IF I had a gun they wouldn't chamber in (tight throated FA 454s mostly) Id then size to 452. But most rugers ran the 454s just fine. Ive shot many a one to two inch 50 yard groups with those sized down bullets. For you it would give you access to heavies without going the custom mold thing.

That's all I shoot.

If you water drop hard ball and cast to .460", you lose "a couple" bullets that get too smashed up to go in one pass from .460 to .452.

Everything else, I just size in one go to .452 and call it good. I do have the .454 die and used to 2-pass it, but learned it's not needed at all unless the 460 is over diameter or REALLY hard. .458, forget it. Just put it in the 452 and go.

I suppose I should mention that for those *occasional* stubborn bullets I Do have a 3 foot solid steel press handle I install for when I'm sizing water dropped bullets (rare for me to water drop these days, I just don't need it @ 1400 fps when mixing type and COWW)

You can imagine how silly a press like rcbs RS or Lee classic cast looks with a 3 foot handle sticking out. I used to use a piece of electrical conduit as a breaker bar. Worked fine too. MOST of the time such a long handle is not needed.

I haven't used it in years since I air cool all my bullets these days.

[Harter66]

I have a custom Mountain Moulds 454-350 plain base . The 75/25 WW-1-20 base failed with H322 just north of 1660 fps . Thanks for the input maybe my own thread ,huh.

[No_1]

I purchased the barrel & some brass from a member and have put it on a frame I got from Ken (45Nut) 6 or 7 years ago. I'm going to read through this entire thing again then again before determining which path I will follow first. On a side note I have maybe 3 boxes of Hornady .45/300?() XTP's (.452) that have been sitting on the shelf for years.....

Take care,
Robert


load em up and let us know how they shoot. To be honest ive only owned one encore. It was a 410/45 that I bought for dad. He used it mostly with 410s for years till he got to old to ride his 4 wheeler then he gave it back. First load I shot in it was the last load I tried in it. My old go to 45 colt load of 9.5 grains of herco and a 255 rcbs swc. Gun shot into an inch at 25 yards. Always heard accuracy was poor with that long bullet jump but like a lot of times you cant always believe what you read. Id bet that 454 encore is a tack driver.

[Lloyd Smale]

what I used to do to a lot of them (it takes a bit of time) is to cast them out of ww, size to 455 then 452 with a lee die in my rockchuker then stick them in the over and heat and water drop them. Then take them and install checks if needed and size and lube in the star. I allways got better accuracy then if I tried using excessive force to take short cuts.
That's all I shoot.

If you water drop hard ball and cast to .460", you lose "a couple" bullets that get too smashed up to go in one pass from .460 to .452.

Everything else, I just size in one go to .452 and call it good. I do have the .454 die and used to 2-pass it, but learned it's not needed at all unless the 460 is over diameter or REALLY hard. .458, forget it. Just put it in the 452 and go.

I suppose I should mention that for those *occasional* stubborn bullets I Do have a 3 foot solid steel press handle I install for when I'm sizing water dropped bullets (rare for me to water drop these days, I just don't need it @ 1400 fps when mixing type and COWW)

You can imagine how silly a press like rcbs RS or Lee classic cast looks with a 3 foot handle sticking out. I used to use a piece of electrical conduit as a breaker bar. Worked fine too. MOST of the time such a long handle is not needed.

I haven't used it in years since I air cool all my bullets these days.

[No_1]

I tested 2 loads at the range today. Both used H110, Winchester SR primers, the RCBS 45-300gc sized .452 & lubed with 50/50 (decked out weighed 321 grs). Both powder charges were somewhat case filling and I am confident the boolits were sitting on the powder.

Average Vel for 27 grs was 1578 with 10 SD.
Average Vel for 27.5 grs was 1608 with 8 SD.

Accuracy was ~2 at 50 yards which I am sure can be bettered with a better rest and no chrony to worry about shooting.

I cleaned the barrel extensively before I started and after 10 rounds the barrel was still absent of any visible leading which was surprising considering the lube. More testing is in order. If things go well I may get another barrel in the 18" - 20" range as I believe this would make a wonderful carbine caliber.

Recoil was unbelievable.....

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p206/no_one_photos/454%20Casull/FullSizeRender_zpsjq1qqfoj.jpg (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/no_one_photos/media/454%20Casull/FullSizeRender_zpsjq1qqfoj.jpg.html)


load em up and let us know how they shoot. To be honest ive only owned one encore. It was a 410/45 that I bought for dad. He used it mostly with 410s for years till he got to old to ride his 4 wheeler then he gave it back. First load I shot in it was the last load I tried in it. My old go to 45 colt load of 9.5 grains of herco and a 255 rcbs swc. Gun shot into an inch at 25 yards. Always heard accuracy was poor with that long bullet jump but like a lot of times you cant always believe what you read. Id bet that 454 encore is a tack driver.

[Lloyd Smale]

Robert that's one stout 45 colt load. Its the same load (even the same bullet)I used in my first 45 colt vaquero and actually turned a fairly tight gun into a baby rattle. I had to have dave clements rebuild it. your flirting with 454 pressures there. I'm sure your encore will take it but as you found out your flirting with 454 recoil levels too in a grip frame that is much more punishing then a single action grip frame.

[No_1]

These loads were in 454 Casull cases and is at the top end of the spectrum. I will not exceed the 27.5 load but instead will drop back to 27.0 and work my way back up. Did I mention recoil is significant?

[Lloyd Smale]

Thing is pal and I know this isn't your first rodeo:p but you wont accomplish anymore with that load of 27 grains then you would with 24-25 and a lot less recoil and blast. I punched a 300 rcbs swcgc through both shoulders of a 1000lb bison out of one of my 45s at 1100fps muzzle velocity and it took two leaps and piled up. Shot a couple deer and a pig with the same load. Never found it lacking in any way. Id about bet that at 1600 your going to get less penetration then you would at 1200-1300 that you would see with 24 grains. But I guess I'm not one to lecture as I do tend to shoots some pretty hard kickers myself at times.
These loads were in 454 Casull cases and is at the top end of the spectrum. I will not exceed the 27.5 load but instead will drop back to 27.0 and work my way back up. Did I mention recoil is significant?

[44man]

A TC is made to ruin your hands! How I hated mine and I ignore recoil from big stuff. They chamber TC's in calibers that send you to the ER.

[leftiye]

Yeah, just who wanted and bought such cannons? when I got my first contender (back during the last ice age) I can remember .357 loads kicking mucho (more than my model 19).

[CPL Lou]

Since my wife was sweet enough to give me a Redhawk Toklat in 454 Casull for Christmas, and since I've never had a firearm in this caliber, I'm keeping a close eye on this thread.
Thanks to this site, I have learned more about reloading and bullet casting in just a few years than I had acquired in my previous 30+ years of reloading, just by reading.
Although I have to agree that the Casull has a bit of recoil, it's manageable, if you know the right way to do it. I keep a tight grip, but loose wrists and elbows are sufficient to keep things 'agreeable'.
If anyone has a suggestion on using Hornady's 250 XTP at around 1400fps with some accuracy, I would welcome the help.

Thanks in advance !
CPL Lou

[44man]

The TC is funny gun. I shot IHMSA with a 30-30, Creedmore with no problems or off hand with 2 hands but a shot off hand with one hand was a cheese grater on my knuckle. DANG, it hurt. I can't imagine larger calibers.
I have an MOA in 7BR that beat me silly---Yeah, even the little thing. Had a closed loop so I sent for an open and it was worse. I made my own from stainless. I can now shoot anything.189988
The TC can't be fixed. It will eat you and beat you.

[No_1]

Thing is pal and I know this isn't your first rodeo:p but you wont accomplish anymore with that load of 27 grains then you would with 24-25 and a lot less recoil and blast. I punched a 300 rcbs swcgc through both shoulders of a 1000lb bison out of one of my 45s at 1100fps muzzle velocity and it took two leaps and piled up. Shot a couple deer and a pig with the same load. Never found it lacking in any way. Id about bet that at 1600 your going to get less penetration then you would at 1200-1300 that you would see with 24 grains. But I guess I'm not one to lecture as I do tend to shoots some pretty hard kickers myself at times.

I really had no desire to purchase a pistol in this caliber but caved when I saw this barrel with brass for what I considered a reasonable price in the S&S section . I really like 45 Colt so figured this is the next progression. I will explore the top end then load for it at a level which is comfortable.

[jlnel2]

I was thinking of getting a 454 barrel for my encore, love the big cals!