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View Full Version : Ladle vs Bottom pour



Rusty W
01-31-2017, 08:55 PM
Got a new mould from NOE awhile back, just now getting around to casting w/it. Started the ProMelt up & the hot plate for the mould. Started casting about 40-50 bullets bringing the mould up to temp & since it was a new mold just seeing how it acted/reacted. It dropped good shootable boolits right from the start so I just kept going. I had a lyman ladle laying by the pot because I have a 45/70 mould that just refuses to produce a good boolit unless I use a ladle. An idea popped into my head to see how the NOE would do w/a ladle. It's a little slower than the bottom pour but it produces a prettier boolit. Question is why? Same alloy, same temp, about 675, only difference is ladle vs bottom pour. I haven't measured them or weighed them to see if there's a difference there. They'll probably shoot the same through the Ruger & the target will never know the difference, if I'm lucky enough to hit it..lol
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/RWoolever/Ladle%20vs%20bottom%20pour/KIMG0283_zpsrjrdnbyi.jpg (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/RWoolever/media/Ladle%20vs%20bottom%20pour/KIMG0283_zpsrjrdnbyi.jpg.html)

pka45
01-31-2017, 09:08 PM
Very interested to see where this goes. I just use the ladle right now, no experience with bottom pour.

runfiverun
01-31-2017, 09:14 PM
that's a mold temperature difference.
slow down your cadence with the bottom pour.

M-Tecs
01-31-2017, 09:16 PM
The middle bullet on the right has a serious base flaw. The bottom one has base damage. The frosting and base damage are most likely due to higher mold temp due to a quicker cadence.

Rusty W
01-31-2017, 09:45 PM
There's some bad bases on a few boolits. The bullshop lube creeped a little. Curious on the window of mold temp. It's a dual cavity aluminum & I have a probe & thermometer, I just need to drill it for the probe. I made a pour from the bottom pour, watched the sprue solidify, break, empty then fill with the ladle. I done this 3 times, 1 pour w/the ladle then back to the bottom pour, then back to the ladle. Each time the ladle produced a prettier boolit. I also tried the pressure cast, holding the nozzle against the mould & letting it use what's in the ladle for a sprue, and holding the ladle about 1" away & letting it pour in making a sprue on top. Either way the ladle made a prettier boolit. Looks like it's time to change the battery in the thermometer & do some testing. Or just run the things through the 45 & get some BAC on them so I can run them through my other 45...lol

Mk42gunner
01-31-2017, 11:05 PM
Quite the contrast between casting styles there. I do think rfr has it right, a cadence thing.

With that said, while I can make acceptable boolits by either method; I enjoy ladle casting more than bottom pouring.

Robert

Vinne
01-31-2017, 11:11 PM
1+ slow down your bottom pour and they should cast just fine.

Devon
02-01-2017, 08:30 AM
Heat rises. The surface lead in the pot may be 50 degrees hotter than the lead that comes out of the bottom pour spout.

44man
02-01-2017, 09:23 AM
I have never had luck with BP. Too fussy and needs attention every few boolits. I call the hole a slag port.

GLynn41
02-01-2017, 10:36 AM
since we are on dipping -- I have an RCBS ladle and Lyman -- and the Lyman is far and away better
an old NRA cast bullet book I have mentioned that poured bullets can tend to be a little lighter than bottom pour
and I cast this way because I got tired of the mess I had from a bottom pour I changed over to the ladle very quickly when I started
casting in the 70's and have no desire to go back I am content

country gent
02-01-2017, 10:51 AM
I started out with a couple bottom pour pots. I built a big pot for smelting and odds and ends work. Started ladle casting the bigger bullets and found my reject rate went way down. And bullets looked better with the ladle. I don't pour for a sprue with the ladle but pour a full ladle letting the excess run off and back into the pot. I get great bullets this way. For ladles I use the lymann, RCBS and just started experimenting with the rowel#1. I prefer the RCBS currently. I have one I'm converting to a dual spout for my big 2 cavity moulds. The rowel is becoming a favorite for the single cavities though. Experiment with temp flow and angle of the moulds see what you can do.

TexasGrunt
02-01-2017, 11:58 AM
With my Lee aluminum molds and bottom pour pot I keep a wet cloth nearby to cool down the mold. Helps keep the cadence going. I just press the bottom of the mold on the wet cloth for a few seconds.

NoAngel
02-01-2017, 12:24 PM
I've tried both. Opinions vary and they are just that opinions. My opinion, bottom pour sucks. The vast majority of the time, a ladle will produce superior bullets.

Soundguy
02-01-2017, 01:26 PM
that's a mold temperature difference.
slow down your cadence with the bottom pour.

Agreed. the ones on the right, being ladle, are just a tad cooler.. the frosted ones on the left are too hot from the BP.

Soundguy
02-01-2017, 01:27 PM
I've tried both. Opinions vary and they are just that opinions. My opinion, bottom pour sucks. The vast majority of the time, a ladle will produce superior bullets.


Once you learn how to use a bottom pour, they work fine. ;)

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
02-01-2017, 02:01 PM
Bottom pour "faster" then ladle pouring -------------- Well that depends!

Yes I have tried a bottom pour and for years have been a ladle caster.

The Rowell bottom pour ladle is A #1.

But then as to speed and my comment, "depends" ------------

If your cruising along with one mold your likely good to go with a bottom pour, until you exhaust your alloy supply. Then What?

I seldom cast with only one mold, the exception being with my 4 cavity 465gr - 45/70 bullets where I use a different alloy. But in my typical/normal casting, even when casting by myself, I will be running 2 - 3 molds, all of 4 cavity or greater whenever possible and there is simply no way any bottom pour pot other then possibly some commercial version can keep up the pace.

My pot is of 40 - 45lbs capacity and using it over the old Coleman gas stove, I can continue to cast even while adding back sprues or additional ingots.

Even though a bottom pour may be faster, as long as the alloy lasts, I'd need at least 2 and likely 3 such pots to maintain my casting pace with the open pot and bottom pour ladle.

My suggestion as per the original posters question is not to slow down the casting rhythm, but to run an additional 1 or 2 molds which will allow a rapid rate of casting while allowing each mold to properly cool. BUT, doing so will rapidly drain that bottom pour pot!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

Yodogsandman
02-01-2017, 02:25 PM
Bottom pour for most, ladle pour for heavier boolits over 400 gr.

paul h
02-01-2017, 02:48 PM
I've only cast with a bottom pour furnace, and have been happy with the results of the accuracy of my cast bullets and my production. I primarily cast for handguns.

If I was a competitive shooter I would investigate ladle pouring to see if I could produce more accurate bullets.

I've never found frosty bullets to be an issue, so long as I get complete fillout and no deformities in the base and bands I'm happy.

country gent
02-01-2017, 03:10 PM
My casting pot is 100+ lbs also and when casting this pot is large enough for 2 others to cast with me. (I seldom cast alone due to mobility issues ). Its mass makes regulating temps far easier. Even when we stop to flux and add sprues back it seldom drops more than 15*-20*. I'm not stopping constantly to refill the pot, when you cast 360-550 grn bullets running 2 moulds and 2 others are casting the same pot levels drop pretty quick. A 20lb pot dosnt last long when casting these big bullets. I find ladle casting to be more consistant and as fast as a bottom pour now. Once the muscle memory and routine takes over things go quick, one thing to do is always do everything the same every thing sits in its place and is where it should be. after a short time your not looking for tappers ladles or tools you just pick them up.

Soundguy
02-01-2017, 03:14 PM
Bottom pour "faster" then ladle pouring -------------- Well that depends!

Yes I have tried a bottom pour and for years have been a ladle caster.

The Rowell bottom pour ladle is A #1.

But then as to speed and my comment, "depends" ------------

If your cruising along with one mold your likely good to go with a bottom pour, until you exhaust your alloy supply. Then What?

I seldom cast with only one mold, the exception being with my 4 cavity 465gr - 45/70 bullets where I use a different alloy. But in my typical/normal casting, even when casting by myself, I will be running 2 - 3 molds, all of 4 cavity or greater whenever possible and there is simply no way any bottom pour pot other then possibly some commercial version can keep up the pace.

My pot is of 40 - 45lbs capacity and using it over the old Coleman gas stove, I can continue to cast even while adding back sprues or additional ingots.

Even though a bottom pour may be faster, as long as the alloy lasts, I'd need at least 2 and likely 3 such pots to maintain my casting pace with the open pot and bottom pour ladle.

My suggestion as per the original posters question is not to slow down the casting rhythm, but to run an additional 1 or 2 molds which will allow a rapid rate of casting while allowing each mold to properly cool. BUT, doing so will rapidly drain that bottom pour pot!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

Its sad that some are unable to add lead to their pot while casting. ;)

Just keep your ingots ready and stacked. I pre make my alloy ingots, vs trying to alloy in the pot. Keep them stacked and ready to add. I make them in 1/2 & 1 # ingots, so there is very little heat loss adding an ingot.

Math is easy.. 1# is 7000 grains. If you are casting big 500gr 45-70 projectiles, and recycling your sprue, every 14 projectiles, feed in another # ingot, etc...

Soundguy
02-01-2017, 03:26 PM
I think the take away here, I that whichever method you lil , practice and use, you become good at.

Whatever you are good at, you usually enjoy.

rsrocket1
02-02-2017, 01:50 PM
You might be able to drop one of those bottom pour bullets onto concrete and watch it snap in half or use a pair of pliers to snap one in half. If you did, you'd see big fat crystals inside the bullet. The mold was way too hot from the BP pot. I know because I've had that happen to me too with a batch of bullets. When I got the cadence and temperature right, I got well filled shiny bullets out of my Lee 6 cavity molds. The 9mm 124g mold needs a faster cadence with almost no cooling between refills while the 240g 45ACP mold needs a 6 second press onto a wet sponge every 2-3 casts.

Soundguy
02-02-2017, 02:27 PM
One reason I like aluminum molds, fast heat, fast cool.

Shiloh
02-02-2017, 07:08 PM
The bolts on the left are from a cooler mold.

SHiloh

308Jeff
02-02-2017, 07:25 PM
I just learned a lot reading this thread.

Love this forum.

Thekid
02-02-2017, 07:57 PM
I have only ladle poured my boolits, this is an interesting thread for sure!

Cold Trigger Finger
02-10-2017, 06:26 AM
Yup. Learned alot . Thanks

Cold Trigger Finger
07-02-2017, 12:19 PM
So, opinions please.
I don't have either yet . Bottom pour or open top and ladle.
I will be casting for rifles in 375 and 458 and handguns up to 476 . However I probably won't be casting more than 20-30 lbs at a session. I used to think I had it all figured out, but rereading this thread I'm questioning my decision.
How important is using a Rowell bottom pour ladle if just running an open top pot.

NavyVet1959
07-02-2017, 12:44 PM
So, opinions please.
I don't have either yet . Bottom pour or open top and ladle.
I will be casting for rifles in 375 and 458 and handguns up to 476 . However I probably won't be casting more than 20-30 lbs at a session. I used to think I had it all figured out, but rereading this thread I'm questioning my decision.
How important is using a Rowell bottom pour ladle if just running an open top pot.

You can get a cheaper alternative by taking a small stainless steel condiment ladle and drilling a 3/32" hole in the bottom of it. I came up with this when I was wanting to experiment with ladle pouring before spending the money on a Rowell ladle and liked it well enough that I didn't buy the Rowell ladle. You can get this type of ladle is most of the restaurant supply stores for around $1.

FortuneCookie45LC did a video on it after I told him about it. He used a larger kitchen ladle though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZQQ159QJCo

country gent
07-02-2017, 01:10 PM
I have lyman, RCBS, and Rowel ladles. I ladle pour all my bullets 38 caliber rifle to 45 caliber rifle. These range in weigh from 335 grns to 550 grns, both 1 cavity and 2 cavity moulds. The lyman is a good mould that pours a nice controllable stream of lead. It fills the cavity quickly and holds enough for a big 2 cavity mould. The RCBS is also very controllable stream and useable it is flat backed and holds a little more lead than the lyman. I have one rcbs converted to a double spout for the 2 cavity moulds now also. all three of the lyman and rcbs ladles have the spouts opened up to .205-.210 for a faster fill and better pressure pour. The rcbs hold plenty with extra for over pour even on the big 2 cavity moulds. The rowel number 1 is a monster ladle holding a pound of molten metal ( wish they made a 1/2 version that was 1/2 lb - 3/4 lb. it is a bottom pour ladle open topped and no real spout so pressure pouring isn't an option with it. But for big multi cavity moulds it has plenty of volumne to fill them in one pour. Same with a lot of ingot moulds one filling = 1 ingot. The rowel also has a longer handle on it and is much heavier than the others. A consideration when pouring a long session. 20-30 lbs is about 2-4 hours time and weight can become an issue there. The lee ladle is more a spoon and actually to small for these big bullets in most cases. I would like a #4 or #5 rowel ladle 5-6 lbs capacity for pouring ingots as 1 fill will fill the lyman rcbs and lee ingot moulds completely and quickly. It probably has around a 3/8" stream pouring. This would also fill my angle iron ingot moulds in 1 pour. Another plus to ladle pouring is pot options open up a lot. You can actually cast with a small cast iron steel or stainless pot on a camp stove or other burner easily. Another benefit is that with several pots alloys can be kept in the pots and used as needed just set the desired on the burner. You can also have several size pots for use. Right now my main casting pot is 120lbs and I have 2 30lb pots for small test batches of alloy wanting to try. A 25 lb propane tank will yield the materials for 2 pots with stand rings if cut correctly. These will be 100 lb pots. One will need a 3/4 pipe plug to plug the valve hole off.

jmort
07-02-2017, 01:47 PM
You can get a cheaper alternative by taking a small stainless steel condiment ladle and drilling a 3/32" hole in the bottom of it. I came up with this when I was wanting to experiment with ladle pouring before spending the money on a Rowell ladle and liked it well enough that I didn't buy the Rowell ladle. You can get this type of ladle is most of the restaurant supply stores for around $1.

FortuneCookie45LC did a video on it after I told him about it. He used a larger kitchen ladle though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZQQ159QJCo

I have not tried this yet, but I will. I believe you were onto something really good and useful when you developed/created that method of pouring lead. I have watched that video you linked more than once. I have a Waage pot that seems like a perfect fit for your method.

farmerjim
07-02-2017, 02:15 PM
I started with a ladle and it worked fine. I got a bottom pour and wow, it is so much faster. I cast with 2 molds and keep ingots on the side in a pot on top of a single burner hotplate. This keeps them preheated to about 500. The 25 pounds of 725 deg lead hardly notices the 500 deg ingot, that is too hot to have any moisture on it. I can go about 3 hours without stopping and cast several thousand at a siting. ( I can only use one mold when casting 22 cal, because it takes all the speed you can do to keep the mold hot)

NavyVet1959
07-02-2017, 04:41 PM
I have not tried this yet, but I will. I believe you were onto something really good and useful when you developed/created that method of pouring lead. I have watched that video you linked more than once. I have a Waage pot that seems like a perfect fit for your method.

With a condiment ladle, I suspect a tall narrow mouth pot would be best. Ideally, I would probably like about the diameter of the Lee pot, but at least twice as tall. Personally, I would not be using the type of pot that FortuneCookie45LC used when he was testing it. I would prefer to minimize the surface area of lead exposed to the air. It only cost $1 to do the experiment since there was a restaurant supply store that I stumbled across on my way somewhere else that day. I started out with a 1/16" hole drilled in it, but I wasn't satisfied with the flow rate, so I tried the next size up (that I had) and planned to go up to 1/8" if that still wasn't enough. Turned out that 3/32" seemed just about right, so I stopped there. When you put the mold over the casting pot, you don't end up with lead spilled anywhere else and in fact, it ends up much cleaner than with the Lee (leaky) bottom pour pot that I was using. :)

I switch back between bottom pour pot and bottom pour ladle casting due to pain that I have from either sitting or standing in one place too long. I have found that I prefer to have the casting pot higher when I'm using it as a bottom pour pot and lower when I'm using a bottom pour ladle out of it.

Landy88
07-02-2017, 06:06 PM
NavyVet and FortuneCookie sold me on the bottom pour ladle conversion, and I started my casting journey with one.

I thought that the variables that it reduced and the great visibility that it affords would help me as a beginner, in addition to protecting the alloy going into my bullets; and I think that it has, since from my second casting session I've been getting quite good bullets.

I did two things different, one good and one bad. Good: I used a spoodle (spoon like straight handle) instead of a ladle; and this allows me to sit with the pot at a good eye level with the mold rested on the edge with the spoodle pouring parallel just above it -- it's comfortable and steady. Bad: I went with the 1/8" hole; and, even though I've cast nothing lighter than 200+ grains thus far, it pours too fast -- big buzzard poop like sprues.

MyFlatline
07-02-2017, 06:21 PM
Started with a bottom pour and have had no issues. learned to drop ingots as the pot lowers. Most all my molds are aluminum , normally run 2. Best thing is , we have a choice. That's what counts.

ichthyo
07-02-2017, 06:51 PM
I use a spoon with a hole to ladle pour as mentioned above. Never tried a bottom pour pot. I'm happy with the ladle. I use an old heavy wall steel teapot on a cheap walmart electric plate. Cheap and effective.

Cold Trigger Finger
07-02-2017, 07:45 PM
You can get a cheaper alternative by taking a small stainless steel condiment ladle and drilling a 3/32" hole in the bottom of it. I came up with this when I was wanting to experiment with ladle pouring before spending the money on a Rowell ladle and liked it well enough that I didn't buy the Rowell ladle. You can get this type of ladle is most of the restaurant supply stores for around $1.

FortuneCookie45LC did a video on it after I told him about it. He used a larger kitchen ladle though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZQQ159QJCo

Cool . Thank You for the video link. It really explained it very well. At this point I'm at the have to buy EVERYTHING for casting. Including lead. So this will save me about $150. Just to get started making my own Boolits. I've got a single burner camp stove and a stainless steel ladle my wife doesn't use. . Can a cast iron Dutch oven be used for a lead pot ?

Tom W.
07-02-2017, 10:15 PM
Yes, but most of the time they are used to melt down wheel weights and such..you don't want to combine both activities using the same pot.

Cold Trigger Finger
07-02-2017, 10:50 PM
At the same time or Dont smelt and make boolits with the same pot ?

Cold Trigger Finger
07-02-2017, 10:55 PM
Please forgive the stupid questions.

Landy88
07-02-2017, 11:02 PM
Can a cast iron Dutch oven be used for a lead pot ?

The answer I got was yes, but to use a 2qt one, instead of the big ones people use for smelting, since you want to expose no more of your molten alloy to air than necessary and it is plenty big enough for all but the highest volume casting.

I ended up getting a very heavy stainless steel restaurant grade double boiler top of the same capacity, because it was even deeper and narrower, it had handle ears on which to rest molds, and it cost less than 1/2 as much. Works well.

NavyVet1959
07-02-2017, 11:33 PM
At the same time or Dont smelt and make boolits with the same pot ?

I suspect that most of us smelt in a different pot than we cast from. Part of that is that when we are smelting, we are doing a lot larger batches than when we cast. Part of it is wanting to ensure that only clean allow goes into our casting pot. That's probably a bit more important for bottom pour casting posts since a bit of contamination can easily clog the bottom pour spout. Many people use a large cast iron dutch oven for smelting and some make their own out of a 20-lb LPG (propane) tank or a freon tank. Some smelt a lot at a time and have made custom smelting pots that are even larger. Smelting is normally done outside with a natural gas or LPG burner.

GhostHawk
07-03-2017, 07:48 AM
Cold, the only stupid questions IMO are the ones not asked.

You can ask a question and learn from the process. There is nothing stupid about that. The reverse in fact is true. If you ask a question, however seemingly innocent or unsophisticated, and learn from the answers. Well to me that is the opposite of stupid. That is educational.

So ask, someone will answer.

But also go read the sticky's so you don't ask every question all over again.

GhostHawk
07-03-2017, 07:55 AM
For years I did everything, and I do mean everything. With a 7" cast iron fry pan.

Melted down wheel weights, skimmed clips, dross, when I had a pot full of liquid clean metal I would use a ladle to make ingots.

The last pot full I would normally pour into whatever I was making be it fishing sinkers (do-it molds rock) round balls for a muzzleloader, or cast boolits. When I could no longer get a full ladle I quit. Let the lead harden right there in the pan.

I have since added 2 lee dipper pots, an old cheap one first which was very nice. As I could set it up and leave it setup. Cast whenever I felt like it. After some 3 years I decided to be smart and get a new one with a thermostat. Keep the old one that still works as a spare.

The new one warms up faster, nice to be able to turn it down and just slide along until the pot is empty.

Cold Trigger Finger
07-03-2017, 10:46 AM
Great. Thanks All. ! Often a challenge is Not knowing the right questions to ask. Now that I'm formulating the right thots, maybe I'll have the right questions to get answered with the stickies.

white eagle
07-03-2017, 11:25 AM
been a ladle pouring man from day one
I have gotten good boolits and bad so I can't blame a bottom pour
for any bad products
I keep hearing speed ,faster more, more, more run two molds with a bottom pour
whats the rush

buckshotshoey
07-03-2017, 11:35 AM
I have a really old ladle that my Grandpa used. I'm proud to use it. And i cast some great boolits with it.

I don't cast enough to make a casting pot worth the cost.. That, and ladles have been used to cast bullets for centuries. Good enough for me.

Cold Trigger Finger
07-03-2017, 10:46 PM
Got an old 20 lb propane tank today, I'll cut it in half for a smelting pot. If I find a piece of 6"-8" diameter pipeline Pipe. I'll weld a bottom out of 3/8" flat steel and use that for my casting pot.

Landy88
07-03-2017, 11:22 PM
If I find a piece of 6"-8" diameter pipeline Pipe. I'll weld a bottom out of 3/8" flat steel and use that for my casting pot.

If I had access to those pipes, and better metalworking tools and skills, I'd make a better and more efficient ladle pour pot than is otherwise available at any price by copying the principle of the surplus Swiss Cook Sets.

199077

byrd45900
07-13-2017, 04:35 PM
The ugly bullets were cast too hot.