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jonp
01-31-2017, 08:18 PM
http://www.schuemann.com/Portals/0/Documentation/Webfile_Barrel_Cleaning.pdf

Schuemann Barrels
POB 248
Bingen, WA 98672
(509) 493-3514
www.schuemann.com

Cleaning

Probably the hardest task when cleaning your gun is decidingabout cleaning the barrel chamber and bore. The primary problem is a lack of well documented information. An additional problem results because the steel which has been most commonly used for pistol barrels has some characteristics which complicate the decision. A detailed explanation of some of the characteristics of the 416 stainless steel used to make custom and replacement pistol barrels can be found in the "steel facts" section of the website.

Precision Shooting Magazine, December,'93,"Rifle Barrel Cleaning Materials and Barrel Corrosion", by Jim Borden, presented information about the etching of 416 barrel surfaces by various chemicals. "... doing inspections of a number of rifle barrels with a very high quality borescope over the past two years has shown that a number of shooters are doing significant damage to their very expensive Stainless Steel barrels..." "illustrate the impact that improper use of some cleaning materials and methods can have on barrel steel. The barrel in the picture had somewhere between 150 and 350 rounds through it when it was retired -it quit shooting well and was very difficult to pass a patch through. Note the gross pitting and cracking evident on the surface of the barrel..." "...to provide some basic information on stainless steel and some of the materials and conditions that adversely affect the corrosion rate of 416SS..." Most of the chemicals Jim Borden listed, many of which are used in commercial barrel cleaning compounds, etched the surface away at rates between 0.020 and 0.050 inches per year. We at Schuemann Barrels regard a barrel to have been substantially worn out when the bore radius is enlarged by 0.0005 inches (a bore diameter increaseof 0.001 inch). Therefore, exposure to some of these bore cleaner chemicals for about 4 days would eat away the bore as much as would have resulted from wearing out the bore by firing tens of thousands of rounds through the barrel. "... if the mixtures result in a more agressive corrosion condition - two particular areas to be pursued are the mixing of Sweet's and Shooter's Choice MC#7, and the mixing of some of the chlorinated aerosols (used to dry out chambers by some shooters) with moisture and some of the cleaning compounds." Here Jim is specifically worried about using any of the TriChloro solvents, such as gun cleaner or carburetor cleaner, in combination with humidity, and/or barrel cleaning compounds. Precision Shooting Magazine, May,'94,"A Closer Look at Bore Corrosion", by Mark D Stouse, presented a detailed look at 416 stainless surfaces and their corrosion susceptability. He showed high magnification photos of 416 surfaces and discussed how the inherent roughness of the barrel surface and the presence of lead or copper and powder residues helps degrade the meager ability of the 416 stainless surface to resist corrosion.

Precision Shooting Magazine, Editorial, December,'97, referencing an article in American Single Shot Rifle Association News by Dr. Geoffrey Kolbe. "... There is a warning on the label of Shooter's Choice MC#7 bore cleaner that it should not be mixed with other bore cleaners... Mixing solvents that contain 111 Tricloroethane with Shooter's Choice is also bad news!... Most American barrel makers hesitate to recommend Sweetsas a regular bore cleaner because experience seems to show that barrels last longer with other petro-chemical based bore cleaners like Hoppes No. 9 or Shooter's Choice. Ammonia is present in bore cleaners like Hoppes No. 9 in the form of ammonia oleate..."

Precision Shooting Magazine, January,'98, letters to the editor, the first from Michael Anzalone pertaining to cleaning barrels used with moly coated bullets. "... We're talking about 4-5 inch vertical spread here (at 100 yards). Anyway, after cleaning with Shooter's Choice, the same thing happened again. So, a light went on in my head, and I realized I was removing all or most of the moly with Shooter's Choice. A call to Berger Bullets provided the following information: Clean only with Kroil and a small amount of JB bore compound. Anything else removes the moly..."

January,'98, a second letter to the editor, this one from Walt Berger (the individual referenced above - Wil) pertaining to the lifetime of a bench rest barrel which had only moly coated bullets shot through it. "... I now have better than 4,000 rounds through my moly-bullet-only barrel, and I won ... at the NBRSA Nationals ... and it still looks good through the bore scope." (this is somewhat greater than the normal lifetime for such a barrel - Wil)

Precision Shooting Magazine February,'98, letters to the editor, the first from Glen Fryxell, PhD, who is a chemist. He starts out quoting from an earlier article, and then offers comments of his own, ""... mixing (ammonia) with solvents that contain 1,1,1-trichlorethane... is also bad news!" This is excellent advise and should be bold-faced, underlined, and extended to include any chlorinated solvent (TCE, carbon tetrachloride, etc.). Ammonia reacts with chlorinated solvents to form ammonium chloride salts. Ammonium salts are hygroscopic (absorb water from humid atmosphere), and the chloride ion is one of the most corrosive species around as far as steel is concerned. This combination will corrode any steel surface, stainless or otherwise. The take home lesson here is, "Don't mix cleaning solvents." (Personally, I won't allow anything than has chlorine in it anywhere near my barrels for this reason)."

February,'98, a second letter to the editor, this one from Greg Bowman, pertaining to corrosion and solvents. "... In the absence of detailed information on the makeup of the various bore cleaners, good advice may be:
1) Do not mix (or use in tandem) bore cleaners of different manufacture..."

Certainly DO NOT ever use a stainless steel brush to clean out a barrel. The stainless bristles are much harder than the steel bore and the result will be to create deep scratches in the bore surface. When we use our IPSC pistols like sub-guns, as we often do, we apparently can raise the bore surface temperature up to the annealing range, based on the color I have seen on some barrel bore surfaces. Therefore, the bore surface of our barrels likely has been preferentially annealed, and could be quite a bit softer than the barrel outer surface would test. Even the brass/bronze brushes, which have bristles which areas hard as mild steel, or the lead removers, which use a hard brass mesh to scape the lead from the bore, may well be able to scatch the bore surface of a stainless steel barrel. Any scratchingof the bore surface will naturally lead to increased bore surface wear, leading, and coppering. My recommendation would be to never use any kind of a bore brush to clean a 416 stainless steel pistol barrel, especially if it has been exposed to strings of rapid fire. I've been watching the knowledge about 416 stainless barrel cleaning grow over the last few years.

Unfortunately, I am not aware of the new information spreading outside of the bench rest rifle world. Hopefully, these short segments of some of the published information will help. One possibility is that the contribution of the millions of microscopic deep grooves in the barrel bore, created by the possible melting away of the sulphur compounds, which were originally a part of the 416 steel barrel, in enhancing corrosion of the bore may be considerable. On the other hand, studies of surface wear often show that the sulphur in steel migrates to the surface where it reduces wear and friction. My "feeling" is that the grooves are likely capable of holding liquid cleaning chemicals, or their residual component chemicals, for long periods of time, and no amount of wiping or rinsing is going to get all thechemicals out of the grooves. The chemical's persistence would be enhanced if the microgrooves are also packed full of propellant and bullet residues, thereby sealing the chemicals into the grooves. These residual chemicals could be slowly eating away the walls of the grooves, especially at the higher temperatures generated when we are shooting. The consequences of such corrosion would not be apparent until the grooves reached some critical size, and then the rate of gas erosion of the bore would increase markedly, shortening the life of the barrel. Some references I have read in the past, that I did not save, indicated significant bore damage apparently had been caused by using one bore cleaner one year and switching to a different cleaner the following year. If the bore's microscopic grooves are capable of holding cleaning solvent residues for long periods of time such damage might well be plausible.

I'd initially been excited about the molydenum disulphide powder coating technology which has been introduced into the shooting sports. Initially, it seems to be reducing bore wear, reducing bullet friction, reducing barrel heating, and reducing peak pressures, were all pluses. Seldom does a new idea produce only pluses. Possible liabilities are documented elsewhere in the web site. My thought is that,in this case. The millionsof microscopic grooves in 416 stainless barrels are likely a plus where moly disulphide is concerned.

The moly disulphide will likely be packed into the grooves which might both anchor the moly disulphide, and also thereby reduce the erosion of the bore by preventing the propellant gas from eating away at the otherwise exposed edges and surfaces of the grooves. The bench rest shooters, to whom clean bores historically have been accorded the status of a religion, are gradually ceasing to clean the bores of their barrels which are used exclusively with moly coated bullets. This both proves the effectiveness of the moly coating and should allow everyone to stop cleaning the bores of their barrels. But, the precision rifle shooters seldom shoot more than a few thousand rounds through their guns before their barrel loses accuracy. We shoot many tens of times more rounds through our guns and that may be important. In precision rifle shooting the mild polishing action of the moly disulphide, which is beneficial to precision rifles, will wear out our barrels prematurely. My Personal Practice has become to never clean the bore of my barrels. I do use a brass rod to scrape the deposits out of the chamber. But, I've learned to leave the bore alone and it very slowly becomes shinier and cleaner all by itself. Years ago I occasionally scrubbed the bore with a brass bore brush. But, doing so always seemed to cause the bore to revert to a dirtier look with more shooting, so I eventually stopped ever putting anything down the bore except bullet.

Wolfer
01-31-2017, 08:40 PM
I should be good since I rarely clean one.

kingstrider
01-31-2017, 08:58 PM
Lots of words there for an advertisement.

runfiverun
01-31-2017, 09:04 PM
I put some oil on my cylinder today :lol:
cleaning is reserved for when the gun loses accuracy.

M-Tecs
01-31-2017, 09:07 PM
Both the winners in the Bench Rest games and Long Range competitions will strongly disagree with not cleaning. Schuemann Barrels only makes pistol barrels. Even the type of barrels they make will lose accuracy when overly fouled.

johniv
01-31-2017, 09:18 PM
Worked in the repair shop of a gun manufacturer. Never saw a firearm hurt by PROPER cleaning. Seen lots ruined by neglect, or the imprudent use of aggressive solvents, or tools not meant for cleaning guns (sand blaster, no kidding). As with all things moderation, and common sense go a long way in keeping you out of trouble.
FWIW
John

Jr.
01-31-2017, 09:22 PM
Depending on the specific machining of the barrel, some shoot better dirty and some shoot better clean. In my case with my Schillen barrel, they suggested not to "glaze the barrel" I haven't had to clean it yet and have had good accuracy, I figure when it does start to lose accuracy I will run a patch of hoppes down it and dry it out well followed by some break free and again dry.

This is all to come with a disclaimer, I only shoot jacketed out of the rifle. With cast there may be variance as to certain problems with leading. Lead fouling may be different that copper fouling which was more than likely subject in the write up. Also any kind of copper solvent such as butch's or sweet's 7.62 is sure to cause corrosion no matter what the material of the barrel.

The fact is, opinions about such things are like butts, we all have one and they all stink.

Hickory
01-31-2017, 09:31 PM
I have for many years disassembled all my guns (as far as possible and still get them back together with out any problems) during the month of January at the rate of one or two per day to get them clean. Hot soapy water works the best. Then dry the pieces over a register on top of an old T-shirt and a hairdryer. Then reassemble them with a little oil and grease in the proper areas. Works for me, never have had a problem yet. They always work when I need them.

M-Tecs
01-31-2017, 09:34 PM
Barrel cleaning effects are easily proven by testing on targets. As such the results are not opinions.

Some interesting discussion here http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/barrel-cleaning-debate/

Regulator.
01-31-2017, 09:44 PM
Clean barrels just plain for a fact shoot better.
Sorry I'm with M-tecs

Hickory
01-31-2017, 09:58 PM
Well, I should have read more of the original post, but, didn't because it was so long.
You were talking about cleaning barrels!
When I'm through shooting my handguns the get some patches down the bores and through the cylinder chambers. (S&W calls them charge holes nowadays for some reason.)
My varmint rifles get cleaned twice a day when I'm shooting prairie dogs. If I'm shooting with someone who is using one of my rifles, I'll clean both myself. I don't trust anyone else to do it and to do it to my satisfaction.
I won't go into minute detail on my procedure, but basically it's, wet patch, brush, wet patch, dry patch, oily patch, dry patch.

waksupi
02-01-2017, 01:41 AM
Why not stick with lead, and have no fouling to clean?

rondog
02-01-2017, 07:15 AM
I should be good since I rarely clean one.

Me too!

And no, I didn't read that 20,000 word essay.....

phonejack
02-01-2017, 08:46 AM
I remember reading those articles. And, trichloroethane is definetly to be avoided.

jonp
02-01-2017, 09:58 AM
It seems to me that they are talking fairly specifically not about their own barrels but a type of stainless and moly coated bullets overall.

I thought it intetesting in the types of cleaners mentioned and warning that brass brushes can damage a barrel. Everyone knows, or should know, to be careful with very aggressive cleaners like Montana Extreme, Sweets etc. Sometimes they are called for but are rarely needed.

The recommendation to use nothing but Kroil and JB Paste from Berger Bullets is interesting but again mentions moly. I wonder if this advice would apply to yhose powder coating cast

trapper9260
02-01-2017, 10:04 AM
I found if I shot cast with the lube I make, that it shoots better,I just clean the chamber when I do clean the gun then.Also if I will shoot jacket ,I will clean the whole gun before if I had shot cast in it and after I shoot jackets. I also found when I shoot shot case in my 357mag , 44mag and 327 mag that if the lube is in the barrel from shooting cast that I get no problems with the shot to leave any sign for lead..

w5pv
02-01-2017, 10:16 AM
There is nothing to clean when you get a carnuba shine in a barrel,I just clean the action and chamber and most times there is nothing to clean in the bore

ole 5 hole group
02-01-2017, 11:32 AM
Both the winners in the Bench Rest games and Long Range competitions will strongly disagree with not cleaning. Schuemann Barrels only makes pistol barrels. Even the type of barrels they make will lose accuracy when overly fouled.

Allow me to rephrase that: Both the winners and other competitors in the Bench Rest and Long Range Competitions will strongly disagree with not cleaning. There, I feel better because I wasn't in the winner's circle all that often but I and the others were very much into cleaning barrels.:wink:

OutHuntn84
02-01-2017, 11:55 AM
Guess its a good thing that I am old fashioned in that respect and stick with good ol' Hoppes #9 solvent and cologne. My guns get cleaned on an as needed basis. Dip a brass brush in the bottle run the barrel twice. Slip a bore snake down it a few times. Then a patch with oil then a dry patch and done. Unless the patch comes out with more crud on it and I feel a little guilty that Ive been neglecting my guns, apologize and repeat the process.

Mr Humble
02-01-2017, 11:58 AM
In WY I only clean when accuracy falls off. In FL I have the copper foil lined cases and clean if I have nothing more important ...... like posting here.

NoAngel
02-01-2017, 12:18 PM
Another here; Cleaning schedule is dictated by accuracy, exposure to the elements and/or function. Not time or number of rounds.

M-Tecs
02-01-2017, 01:45 PM
Not time or number of rounds.

Again the long range and benchrest competitors have a very good idea how many rounds fired before fouling affects accuracy. I does very with cartridge and coatings with centerfire rifles but 60 rounds is on the low side and 120 rounds is on the high side before the accuracy starts deteriorating and you no longer have peak performance. By 200 or 300 rounds accuracy loss becomes noticeable.

That is will jacketed bullets in long range competition rifles. I haven't built or played the accuracy game enough with cast bullets to comment.

NoAngel
02-01-2017, 02:17 PM
Again the long range and benchrest competitors have a very good idea how many rounds fired before fouling affects accuracy. I does very with cartridge and coatings with centerfire rifles but 60 rounds is on the low side and 120 rounds is on the high side before the accuracy starts deteriorating and you no longer have peak performance. By 200 or 300 rounds accuracy loss becomes noticeable.

That is will jacketed bullets in long range competition rifles. I haven't built or played the accuracy game enough with cast bullets to comment.


Maybe for those guys. Most of us lower peons who just wanna hit what we point at aren't as anal about poking bullets through the same hole every time.
The term accuracy is subjective.

Blackwater
02-01-2017, 02:26 PM
The subject of barrel cleaning is a very interesting and necessary part of our shooting. I used to subscribe to PS and TAR for years, and followed this pretty closely. Their references were always to J-bullet use. But there are so many bullet types now - gilding metal jacketed, solid copper, solid gilding metal, lead of widely varying hardness and with a myriad of lubes and lube types - that there CAN be, I think, no "one answer" to it all. Get into .22 LR match shooting, and you'll come to believe in sacrificing chickens on the full moon when it comes to barrel cleaning! No two seem to follow the same regimen, and it seems a matter of pride, almost, to have your own system.

I got baited into trying a number of things in the bores of my rifles, and frankly, provided I start with a bore that's "dry" of all other, potentially conflicting cleaners, I haven't really found all that much difference between them, except that some work faster on copper fouling than some others, but those also have a warning about NOT leaving them in the bore TOO long, lest they etch the bore and "wear" the barrel faster instead of protecting and cleaning it.

The only thing I've concluded in my meager experiments, is that cleaning regularly IN ACCORD WITH THE DIRECTIONS ON THE BOTTLE of whatever cleaner you choose to use, will keep you shooting longer than either not cleaning or using too much cleaning. Clean when needed, and not before, has become my general practice. I recently cleaned my preacher's 7 mag Ruger, and all he'd ever done was shoot it, and clean with some Hoppes or something similar, and when the bore looked shiny, he felt he was "good to go." But I took a flashlight and magnifying glass, and looked into the bore at the muzzle, and say a good bit of copper fouling, and some black stuff I didn't know what it was. I cleaned, and looked again, and there was MORE copper visible! So it CAN hide from view. I wound up cleaning again and again for over 2 hours, until the copper was very minimal and obviously very, very thin - almost translucent. I decided to stop there. Subsequent shooting showed it was again VERY accurate, as it had been initially.

So it's really more of a judgment call, when it comes to cleaning barrels, than anything else. Run5's recommendation of cleaning only when it seems to be needed is a pretty darn good recommendation! More bores are ruined by improper cleaning than are EVER shot-out! Don't believe it? OK. Just keep your eyes open, and see how folks clean their guns. Eventually you'll see why that adage has been around for as long as it has. The multi-piece cleaning rods have their place, but it's in a pack, and NOT for regular cleaning. And those "aggrevating" cone-shaped bore guide are there for a REASON! Use them! Your guns will last a LOT longer and give much better and more consistent accuracy if you clean after every 100 rds. or so of j-bullets. With lead and good lube, I very rarely clean my barrels. Might clean the cylinders, or the chamber of autos, but rarely the barrels. Good lube with properly sized and cast bullets will leave so little lead, and what's left is often shot out with each succeeding round, that cleaning simply isn't needed. But if it makes you feel good, and you don't mind paying for new barrels, and like to trade often, cleaning is a good way to keep out of bigger trouble! ;^) Works for me, anyway, for many years in my youth. Might just be the reason I'm still here, even! (LOL)

tomme boy
02-01-2017, 04:24 PM
It depends more on YOUR barrel than anything else. Some barrels will not shoot right till you get 5-10 or more shots through it after a deep cleaning. And it seems that the more shots it takes to get to shoot right, the faster it will also degrade in its accuracy. One of the worst guns I ever had was a H&R 223 with a factory bull barrel. That thing took 10 shots before it would shoot. Then I could shoot it for about 50 shots before the accuracy fell off. I got rid of that fairly quick.

My best was a Savage target action with a Mike Rock 5R barrel in 308win. The cold clean bore shot was a 1/4" low and left. After that I could shoot it for about 300 rounds before it opened the groups up a little. I shot that thing A LOT at 600 and 1000 yards. And shooting at those ranges it shows up fast if anything is going on.

MaryB
02-02-2017, 01:39 AM
5,000+ rounds and I have yet to do more than run an oiled patch down my HiPoint barrel then putting it away. They recommend a deep clean around 6k rounds lol and it is still as accurate as the day I bought it, I have no problems running the 6" flip plates at 25 yards which is accurate enough for my use(home defense, that is my bed gun and doubles as my truck gun if I have to go into the big city).

Rifles get cleaned about every 500 rounds or so unless I am going hunting, then a fresh cleaning, a trip to the range to fire a mag to get them back to shooting accurate. For target plinking where I am not real concerned about absolute accuracy like hitting a prairie dog head at 300+ yards a dirty barrel is no biggie.

This was with about 400 rounds through the barrel. A friend asked what people meant between hot and cold barrel accuracy so I showed him. 100 yards, cheap fed American Eagle 55 grain ammo. Left target is cold and you can see the shots start to string vertically then spread is it warms up, right side is hot and not as accurate. 6" targets so still plenty accurate on something coyote sized.

edit: this is with my custom built AR-15

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd248/maryalanab/IMG_20150807_2349398201_zpspdbwkzqh.jpg

44man
02-02-2017, 09:40 AM
I don't clean my stainless revolvers much and have gone 5 years without anything down the bore but cast. Accuracy never changes. I do keep the cylinder and pin clean for new STP for lube.
I have used Sweets on rifles that shoot jacketed and I agree with Blackwater, follow instructions.
Do I worry about a bronze brush? Not at all. I stay away from the lead out patches, they have abrasives on them.
The best for carbon is M Pro 7, water based made for military cannons. I clean cylinders with it and flush with hot water.

44man
02-02-2017, 09:50 AM
I never go hunting with a clean bore or went to a shoot with one. If I did, I would miss the first target. I worried about it but living in the city I could not shoot one first. I cleaned because of moisture and blued guns. Now with stainless, and a dry basement I don't bother. I can step out the door and shoot one before now. Some guns need more shots but mine only needed one.
Shooting cast I get no leading at all so I don't clean. A friend gave me factory .45 Colt loads so I cleaned the Vaquero, not a speck of lead after 6 years but after jacketed I will clean again.

jonp
02-03-2017, 07:07 PM
All very interesting responses. I am going to rethink my cleaning. I am not going to quit doing it but I might switch from a brass to a plastic brush. I normally use Hoppes #9 and patches. I think I am going to try the Kroil/JB Bore paste method as I don't see why that would not work great.

44man
02-04-2017, 11:01 AM
JB is very fine and will polish more then cut steel. Kroil penetrates well. You will do no harm.

halvey
02-04-2017, 10:27 PM
I never clean my .22's. Unless they stop functioning. Then it can take awhile to get it all grimed up again for the accuracy to stay consistent.