The trials and tribulations of being a Mod

[Blackwater]

Fellas, I and others have received complaints about the marijuana thread here, and we constantly receive complaints about what we allow on some threads. We seldom explain ourselves here, and I thought that even though I'm the newest Mod on the board, I ought to at least try to explain a little about why we do what we do, why we allow things that please nobody it seems, and the reasons we act or fail to act when someone gets offended. Other mods have been invited to comment here if I get something wrong, or if they differ from what I post. It's a complex issue and each mod has his or her own views. These are mine. I responded to the complaint about letting the mj thread go so long as follows, which is a direct quote of my PM to the complainant:


It's been discussed, and we're all just about fed up with it. There's really no clear violation of the terms of service, but the whole thing is full of "marginal" comments at best. It's one of those situations where people are expressing whatever their current opinions are and doing so with some emotion, and nobody is listening to anyone else, but we try very hard to stick very scrupulously to the TOS, and while nobody is happy with it, they all made it such, and until there's a clear violation of the TOS, we're letting it proceed. Sometimes, when managing things, there comes a time when it can appear best to leave folks to the consequences of their own making.

However, once some have established clear patterns of saying things that appear to be trolling and asking for yet MORE dissension, we can and will do something. And that's been discussed also, and it's being watched closely. So it's probably good advice to just stay out of it, and let the idjits get whatever they earn. Avoid name-calling and just say what you think, and let others show their "true colors," and it'll work itself out eventually.

Sometimes, it's hard to mod a thread where folks just get all their noses bent out of shape, and can't and won't see any other person's side. Being too quick to act, and we're accused of not allowing "free speech." Too slow, and folks want US to save them from the things they have made their own selves. So, we try hard to just let things take their natural course as much as we can, even if it's not fun doing so for ANY of us. It's the closest thing to "wisdom" in these matters we've come up with.

To a point, allowing such threads serves the purpose of folks feeling like they don't have to "walk on eggshells" here, and we find out more about what others REALLY think. There's some good in that. It's basically like life and politics. "That gov't is best that governs the least." The Founders established that, and we've come FAR from that simple precept, and the further we get away from it, the worse things get. Nobody in this life can make people like or be "nice" to each other. Why should we? Disagreements, different views and dissension from them are inevitable, no matter where we go, even in this etherous electronic realm. Our policy as mods is to allow folks to work things out as best they can, IF they'll just try, with the minimum intervention necessary to keep the place clean enough to allow full, complete expression of our various views and opinions.

So yeah, that means there are gonna' be disagreements, including views that differ from any of the mods may have. But I still think that's the best policy, all things considered. Have we become so PC that we can no longer tolerate even the inevitable spectre of a difference of opinion or views? I surely hope not!

So my best comment and advice is to just let it go if it gets you that upset. Yeah, there are idjits around, but they vote too, and it's best that we know HOW they think, and why, so maybe - just MAYBE - we can formulate better words and methods of dealing with it all. It's just how civilizations work things out. Hushing folks up is against the morals and beliefs of most folks, right up until they get butt hurt about others who differ from their own views. It's part of being human in these modern times, it seems. I don't think the Founders would very much approve of that, and it'd probably make them shake their heads in disbelief and dismay. It's not easy any more, mostly because PC has become our "new religion" in this country FAR more than Christianity, and even Christians hold PC thought that they call "Christianity" when it's clearly not, to discuss things openly and honestly and forthrightly. Some folks have always made spectacles of themselves in those situations, and there's nothing any mod can do about it, really, in the long run, without violating our OWN moral and ethical standards. And we try very, very hard NOT to do that! And sometimes, all we really CAN do is sit and just shake our heads, and wonder where it's all going to end. If you have a better approach, that still fits within our moral and ethical standards, let me know. We can't and shouldn't just stop things because we don't like the way they're proceeding. We have to have a reason that's within the TOS. Established patterns of certain posters CAN fit within or be violations of the TOS, but we're very conscious of not acting TOO quickly on such matters.

Constant trouble makers are watched closely, and always engender many reports to the mods. We discuss them, and make a decision. None of us pretends to be omniscient or perfect, but we do a pretty fair job, IMO, and we're awfully tolerant sometimes. We'd rather wait than act too swiftly, and do something we might later find was unwise. Discretion is never easy, but it usually pays off. (shrug) If someone has a better way, let us know.

I hope this gives at least some of you a little insight into why we do what we do or don't do what we don't do. If not ... oh well. We do the best we know how to do, and none of us claims infallibility, and this is the reason we tend to err on the permissive side when we doubt or are uncertain what to do or how to go about it. That's as "fair and balanced" as we can make it, and if someone's offended by this, there's just nothing we can or should do, I think, to prevent that. I just hope that at least more folks understand our efforts, even if we aren't perfect sometimes, and can't always please everyone at once. We DO care about each and every poster here, and want everyone to feel free, and not feel like they have to "walk on egg shells" lest they offend a Mod. EVERYONE here gets offended sometimes by what's posted, even including the Mods. We just figure it's our job to rise above it, as best as we can and know how, and be as fair as we know how to be with everyone, even the more offensive and instigative types. And boys, that ain't easy! Believe me! But we do what we can, and the rest we leave up to all of you to deal with as best as you know how to do that. Simply stated, we trust YOU to govern yourselves, even when it's difficult for you as it also is for us. Pretty simple really.

Just thought it might help things at least a tiny bit if everyone understood more about what we do and why. Hopefully, some will. The rest, we just don't have an answer for, I guess. Like I said, we never claimed to be perfect, or even sometimes smart, but I hope you have the good grace to understand. Thanks to all who do, and I REALLY mean that.

[aspangler]

Good post Blackwater. It has been my experience to just ignore any thread that is ofensive to me and my beliefs so as not to get entangled in too much controversy. I for one support the Mods and think they do a very good job.
Keep up the good work.
Albert

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Well...
Blackwater, that thar is a mouthfull. Very well put, I surely do agree with you...and only have one thing I'd like to add.

There is a sticky in the Staff section of the forum entitled "Our Mission", which was authored by our current CEO (No_1). I won't copy and paste the whole thing, as it's worded for the Mods. BUT the opening statement and the closing statement, would be good for the general membership to be always thinking about, especially those who frequent the PIT.





opening statement:

Fellow moderators,
The mission this website serves (Job #1) is to teach others how to cast boolits. We as moderators are only here to focus that attention. We need to keep the mission in focus. We will have to take out the trash on occasion but for the most part we are here to safeguard the environment. We will need to evolve as conditions change and we need to do it as a team.



closing statement:

Let's take a look at the site for a moment. I am sure everyone will agree this place has far exceeded the expectations of Ken or anyone else as far as membership, knowledge and pure friendship of strangers from across the globe. We have brought the dirty task of casting boolits to new heights. We as a group, have 1000's of years casting experience, which is shared freely with anyone who chooses to take the time to learn. Keeping the information flowing is our goal. We as moderators need to ensure those who are not oriented towards our goal do not interfere with those who are. New blood is not only needed but required in order to remain faithful to the mission and further the ideas which have made this a great place, ideas such as forgiveness and charity.

[Mytmousemalibu]

You guys have for the most part, a largely thankless job to do and often catch hell for it so thank you for doing it! Goes to all you Mod's!

There is always going to be people that bicker with each other, no escaping it. Just as everyone has their own opinions. Some people get too engaged, others too crossed with what someone else is doing and can't mind their own business. That's life. That's always a point of contention when you have large groups of people in one place. Not an easy task to keep everything in a state of tranquility so thanks again.

[brtelec]

I was a moderator on a forum for a number of years and I know what you are talking about in regards to the issues of moderating a controversial thread. We handled it a little different where I was, if a thread just became too volatile we just closed it. The membership needs to realize that this is not a public forum where you can say whatever you wish to whomever you wish. These forums are privately owned and the ownership/administration can do as they please. We always felt that each forum has a certain common tone to the membership. Disagreement among the membership is to be expected, but running directly against the grain of the forum was not tolerated. The forum we were on had a very pro law enforcement, pro military, conservative tone. Because of that we as the admin/moderators would close and/or delete anything we found to be deliberately antagonistic. If you did not like that type of moderation, leave. I am not saying that this is the way to run your forum by any means, but I do find that some of the threads are allowed to run well past their usefulness. I do not comment on things I find offensive on this forum. I move on. This has been the way I was taught to handle people and ideas I disagree with as long as they cause no harm to me or my family. If my religious, political or lifestyle beliefs are different than yours, I see no reason that you have to think as I do and will make no attempt to change your mind. Mainly because you will not be able to change mine. I do not know when this country got to the point to where a difference of opinion or belief or ideology became an opportunity to try to shout the other person down until they agree with you. It is a sad state of affairs.

[merlin101]

The subjects of pot, abortion and politics. You couldn't pay me enough to moderate those!
You guys have a tough job to do and no matter what someones ticked off at you.

[osteodoc08]

Good post Blackwater. It has been my experience to just ignore any thread that is ofensive to me and my beliefs so as not to get entangled in too much controversy. I for one support the Mods and think they do a very good job.
Keep up the good work.
Albert

That pretty sums it up for me too. I haven't even bothered with that thread.

[Electric88]

That pretty sums it up for me too. I haven't even bothered with that thread.

You aren't missing all that much. It seems to me like a lot of the people in that thread are the ones who post mainly in the pit. I rarely see posts from them in other subforums. I guess to each there own.

[ShooterAZ]

Mods,

I view the problem more as "trolling" as opposed to having a disagreement. There are a few (we all know who they are) who barely fly under the radar here. They lurk like vultures for the most controversial threads on the forum, then come in for the feeding frenzy like a bunch of bloodthirsty sharks. They get their jollies from raising the ire of the fellow forum members in my opinion.

The moderators have my word that I will never call anyone a troll again on this forum. I assume that is what is being referred to as name calling? It's really too bad that they can't be called out for what they are intentionally doing. They can take a perfectly good thread and turn it in to a disaster zone.

In closing, I appreciate what the moderators do here. Thank you for what you do...and I apologize if I have caused you guys any grief.

[Steelshooter]

[QUOTE=Electric88;3899808]You aren't missing all that much. It seems to me like a lot of the people in that thread are the ones who post mainly in the pit. I rarely see posts from them in other subforums. I guess to each there own.
Right on the money.

[waksupi]

There are definitely some trolls hanging out, that need to find a home elsewhere.

When someone would volunteer to be a moderator, they were always looked at as mentally defective, as no sane person would willingly seek the job.

[shredder]

I believe you Mods have a broad support among the members here. Those who wish to tangle will always disagree.

[dragon813gt]

You guys have a tough job. But I have a hard time having sympathy for people that complain about the subject of a thread. No one is forcing them to open it and read it. So I don't get complaining to the authorities about it. Now reporting violations of the TOS I understand and have done it myself.

If that thread has proven anything it's how set in their ways people are. Very few are willing to have a rational discussion. This is the case w/ pretty much every subject. It's along the lines of "I've never shot a Glock but they're not a 1911 so they must suck." Or "I don't own any Lee tools but since their price is so low they must be junk".

I thank you guys for all you do. Keeping things in line has got to be tough here. I was a moderator on a large forum where the average age was 16-25. I'm positive keeping them in line was easier than keeping people in line that are old enough to know better.

[JeffinNZ]

The fundamental issue is there are a lot of users of this forum who lack the social skills to conduct an intelligent and civilised discussion where differences of opinion exist.

[dverna]

The fundamental issue is there are a lot of users of this forum who lack the social skills to conduct an intelligent and civilised discussion where differences of opinion exist.

Couple that with some who do not have the intellect to frame a rational defence of their opinion.

Don Verna

[Boaz]

For what it's worth which ain't much . I moderated and was an admin on several forums . The situations you run into are...challenging . No mod wants to run off a member , they promote harmony and just try to keep the threads running smoothly , as should be . The better the forum runs ...the less problems there are .

But there are the trolls , the nutters , the upset members , the mentally ill , the .... . You should see the point . Mods try to reason , encourage , guide and when all else fails suspend privilege or ban members after repeated offences for the benefit of the membership . Its a forum ...not a free for all knock down throat cutting free for all out 'FREE SPEACH' experiment . Decorum , manners and civility are expected to be able to allow everyone to participate and enjoy their time on that forum .

I could tell stories like the guy that put up a post about how he had sex with his mule one winter because he was snow bound , trolls from eastern Europe trying to sell drugs and ****** in posts , no need to explain farther , too many stories. The mods themselves will discuss members/situations , a round of opinion and recommendation ....action or not will follow . Cussing and profanity is most often cleaned up with a warning or counseling and affirmation of expectations of behavior .
The mods here do well in my opinion .

The mods work in our interest trying to make everyone happy .

[bayjoe]

JeffinNZ pretty much sums it up in my opinion.
I just ignore all the premandonna's and their sarcastic comments

[Skunk1]

Well said. Thank you and all the moderators for keeping this site going and the thankless work you do.

[fred2892]

Anybody notice the two words in the opening and closing in post number 3. CAST BOOLITS!! When I joined this forum over 10 years ago that was the primary aim of this forum. Sub forums were very closely related to that primary aim. Things were very much more polite back then and you would very rarely see a post which seemed out of place in the world of cast boolits.
Things are very different today. It seems we are very ready to pamper to the whims of zealots and fruitcakes. Sub forums are created for the discussion of anything except cast boolits. As an example, if I remember rightly the Our Chapel was created to allows us to reflect on the knowledge a member had shared before he'd cast his last boolit, today its almost bordering on radical fundamentalism.
I have nothing but respect and admiration for the mods who freely give up so much time to keep order. Perhaps they would have more time if this forum hadnt drifted so far away from its primary aim.

Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk

[aspangler]

A P.S. to post #2. I also was a mod on another forum and know and sympathize with what the Mods go thru. I resigned when the stress was too much for me. Am still a member in good standing on that forum.
To all the Mods: May the God of all creation (or what ever you believe in) give you the Grace and Wisdom to do your job.
Albert

[shoot-n-lead]

Anybody notice the two words in the opening and closing in post number 3. CAST BOOLITS!! When I joined this forum over 10 years ago that was the primary aim of this forum. Sub forums were very closely related to that primary aim. Things were very much more polite back then and you would very rarely see a post which seemed out of place in the world of cast boolits.
Things are very different today. It seems we are very ready to pamper to the whims of zealots and fruitcakes. Sub forums are created for the discussion of anything except cast boolits. As an example, if I remember rightly the Our Chapel was created to allows us to reflect on the knowledge a member had shared before he'd cast his last boolit, today its almost bordering on radical fundamentalism.
I have nothing but respect and admiration for the mods who freely give up so much time to keep order. Perhaps they would have more time if this forum hadnt drifted so far away from its primary aim.

Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk

Please provide the web address of some cast boolit forums in the UK...we may be able to learn how to do it, correctly.

[fred2892]

Please provide the web address of some cast boolit forums in the UK...we may be able to learn how to do it, correctly.
And its posts like this that I'm talking about.

Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk

[dragon813gt]

This topic comes up from time to time. The forum this thread is in is an off topic forum. You don't have to click on an off topic forum if you don't want to. The site owner/mods could remove any of the forums at any time. In general the off topic forums drive a good bit of traffic to sites. So there is a benefit to having them.

[maxreloader]

Now reporting violations of the TOS I understand and have done it myself.

It's along the lines of "I've never shot a Glock but they're not a 1911 so they must suck." Or "I don't own any Lee tools but since their price is so low they must be junk.

So you are saying to just rip a bong hit and deal with it pretty much... gotcha.

[dragon813gt]

So you are saying to just rip a bong hit and deal with it pretty much... gotcha.

Want to be any more passive aggressive? Where in my post did I advocate smoking cannabis? There is an overwhelming mentality here that if "you" don't like it then it's not meant to be here. Just because you don't like what I have to say doesn't mean I'm wrong. But w/ a one sentence response I can't comment any further.

[maxreloader]

and to add to that... Jeff in NZ gets it. If you don't have very thick skin then maybe, just maybe, the interwebs are not the placew for you. Defence is not spelled with a "s". Vanna we need another consonant. Sorry I have been awake since 2:30 am EST. good night.

[shoot-n-lead]

And its posts like this that I'm talking about.

Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk

Well...show us a better forum.

It was a reasonable request, based upon the statements you made as to the decline of this forum.

[maxreloader]

Thats my opinion Mr. "Drag-on" the, wait where were we? Goodnight, been up too long and need sleep. Books are for Elmer, he's been to hell, I just like to cut through the many words if possible and get to the point (again, my opinion, which really don't matter on the internet). :bigsmyl2: and only because thats my favorite ani gif icon available here.

[JWFilips]

I must apologize: That MJ thread got my dander up ( at a bad time...I'm recovering from the Flu...but that is no excuse) I will focus my replies to "Cast Boolits" were I feel I can do my best to help this forum!
Jim

[Electric88]

Well, that escalated quickly

[kmrra]

I enjoy reading things here on this forum, to me its the best one that I have found . Personally I dont see what the big deal is about what is posted here, If you dont like what is posted here then dont read it , just that simple. There is a lot of stupid stuff posted here, some I have read and some I dont, if it doesn't interest me I dont wast my time. I have found tons of useful info here. but then you are going to have whinnie babies everywhere.

[dverna]

Think about why we "need" a Pit in a site dedicated to cast bullets. Does it not seem a bit hypocritical?

Judge not by what people say but what people do.

And as in most human endeavors.....follow the money.

Don Verna

[runfiverun]

I recall the [how many of you have heard this?] conversation with Ken at my dining room table about the pit.
he hemmed and hawed about even having it and I had no council I could offer.
he finally decided it would mostly be used to discuss new/changing laws pertaining to guns or on something the members feel is important enough to pass along.

it would also keep the commentary separate from the casting sections and not muck up the 'our town' section.
the 'our town' section used to be used for threads just like the one Jeff posted recently.
and was a large part of the threads posted on the site, we had college graduation and H/S graduations posted there.
wedding announcements, and pictures were posted there. [I think Littlegirls wedding was the last one] and a couple of members engagements have been posted in the last year.
before that it was vacation pictures, wedding anniversary's, shooting event's...
this made it feel more like a community of like minded people.

recently it's been a bunch of drive-by sniping, and pell mell halfassed picking.
sometimes I miss Bob and Larry's back and forth drama at least they posted relevant links and kept it all in one thread.

[MaryB]

One thing I want to add, we only act immediately if it is a cut and dried case like swearing, bypassing the word filter, spamming, or blatant trolling/name calling. Otherwise we have a discussion in the staff forum before we act. So if you don't see instant action you can bet we are discussing it and for everyone to weigh in can take a day because we are all in at different times... for example I am the late night mod who is in after 10pm most nights! So please give us some time to discuss the situation then act!

[Lloyd Smale]

I too am a moderator on a couple other forums so I'm not blind to this stuff. Good chance that I might even be one of those others are wining about. Bottom line is I post what I feel and make no appolgies for it. Sometimes I even get wrapped up and carried away. thing that's different with me then some others is I have tough skin. I can get in a heated discussion with you today and still be there to help you tommarow. Only thing id suggest on a topic like that is to move it to the pit immediately or as soon as conflict starts. Anyone that can read can see that pit has different rules. If you want to go there you too should have thick skin. If you post your opinion youd best be willing to have it challenged. If your the type that has to go run to one of the moderators every time you think someone is picking on you then stay out. Simple as that. Blackwater, Mary and runfiverun have enough to do to patrol the rest of the fourm. There not your mommy and don't need to come to your rescue every time Johnny is picking on you.

[Sasquatch-1]

I did not read all the post here, but I have a simple saying, "If a thread offends you, DON'T read it." If you can't win the argument or convince people who can't be convinced just don't go there anymore. You can't win them all.

[6bg6ga]

I too was a moderator on several forums. I've had two forums that I started myself and when I got bored I turned operation over to someone else. Its time to close the MJ thread as it could keep going the next 6 months. I will add I detest a mod changing someones post when they don't like the wording. Cussing, porn, porn links, name calling are valid reasons for changing a post AK to remove cuss word or links to porn. I see the forum here starting to go down hill with the term "TROLL" being use when someone doesn't agree with someones point of view. A mod has to respect the people posting and not put themselves on a higher plateau. I've seen very good threads completely because the truth hurt. A forum should be about truth, information, communication, shared interests and I could keep going here.

[.429&H110]

I wasn't sure what is meant, so I looked it up jn wiki
Wiki shows a symbol, which could be stamped as a first warning...
Without mods this forum or any forum would be swamped.
Perhaps this as a sticky:

In Internet slang (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_slang), a troll (/ˈtroʊl/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English), /ˈtrɒl/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English)) is a person who sows discord on the Internet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet) by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-1) extraneous (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/extraneous#Adjective), or off-topic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-topic) messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newsgroup), forum, chat room (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chat_room), or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into an emotional (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion) response[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-PCMAG_def-2) or of otherwise disrupting normal, on-topic discussion,[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-IUKB_def-3) often for the troll's amusement.

[dverna]

Being opinionated does not make someone a troll.....unless an overwhelming percentage of that forums members, do not agree with them. I see that happening here...sadly. So, "group think" not only comes into play but is encouraged. I see a number of posts suggesting "outsiders" should leave the forum. I am not sure that living in our own little world makes us think or grow, but so be it.

So, someone like Mac, Tim, BinS, etc.....maybe even me at times, will be a troll in this sub-forum. A site that offers "Bitter Clinger" as a badge of honor.....well....let's not go there.

The Pit, warns us that there is more leeway for "discussion". But that too is now moving to accommodate the BCC line of thinking. BCC = Bitter Clinger Correct.

I like Lloyd's last post, even if he is a BC. At least he is able to deal with differing opinions like an adult. If you have not read it....READ IT!

Don Verna

BTW, another thing I like about Lloyd is that he is not ashamed of who he is or afraid. He uses his real name.

[Lloyd Smale]

I don't know that I'm a bitter clincher. I guess I really don't even know what that means. What I am is a Christian and I do believe in the bible. I also am not politically correct all the time. Even my family shakes there heads at that once in a while :roll: But I'm honest to a fault and don't say ANYTHING that I don't stand behind. Not everyone agrees with me and that's ok. It would be a REAL BORING world if that was the case. I know moderation is sometimes needed on one of these forums and maybe even I should have been slapped on the hand when I got carried away a few times but it should be used for things like swearing and blatant personal attacks. At least in the pit anyway. But that just my opinion and this isn't my forum and I don't make the rules. So that opinion as usual isn't worth much

[RogerDat]

Opinions without thought or foundation in reason are meaningless. Best ignored but while I do see some that are big on... heck I don't know what you call it. A lynch mob mentality? Or maybe more like a bunch of kids picking on anyone on the playground that they see as "different" I also see some that put forward reasons for their opinions, those are worth taking the time to think about, and respond to. If nothing else they force one to clarify ones own opinions and thoughts.

My dad when I asked him why he liked to read said something to me I never forgot. "I read so that I might know the thoughts of others".

I try to split my time between the casting reloading parts and the pit. The pit tends to generate more posts simply because a debate is taking place. What load or bullet do you use for.... really only requires one or two posts as a rule. I do wonder at the tendency of some to resort to accusations of being a "troll" or "liberal" or whatever that will allow one to dismiss an opinion without having to actually refute it. But toughest, meanest, most cut throat member here can't hold a candle to an ex of mine so I'm pretty sure I can take it.

Frankly I think the mods do an excellent job, I have received a lot of help, support, useful and interesting knowledge from members here. Even some that have disagreed with me in very strong terms. I like what the OP said, went well with that quote from our countries founding about not agreeing with your remarks but will defend to the death your right to make them.

Keep on trucking Mods and know we get along like brothers, but brothers who owe us money and returned a borrowed muzzle loader without cleaning :-)

[dragon813gt]

Being opinionated does not make someone a troll.....unless an overwhelming percentage of that forums members, do not agree with them. I see that happening here...sadly. So, "group think" not only comes into play but is encouraged. I see a number of posts suggesting "outsiders" should leave the forum. I am not sure that living in our own little world makes us think or grow, but so be it.

This is the current issue. If you don't agree w/ the majority(or maybe just the loudest) you're labeled a troll or liberal and it's suggested you should leave. Living in an echo chamber is no way to learn. All it does is strengthen your confirmation bias. We all have different experiences and live in different areas. Those in really rural areas would find it hard to live in a city and vice versa. Both would want to change things to make it more like where they came from. No matter how much you want things to stay the same it's an impossibility.

[OBIII]

Lets give our Mods a big thanks for all that they do. Let's even help them by ignoring threads and topics that we do not care for. When replying to a thread, write out your response and go have a cup of coffee before you post it. Come back and re-read it: chances are you will change it or delete it altogether.
OB

[Teddy (punchie)]

Thanks Mods. You have allot of work in this black white word of internet. So easy to take things the wrong way. There is no color to make a clear picture if you will. People need to learn to calm down, take breath. Easy to see how fast people in the world get in a fight, disagreements and wars. Thanks Again for running the site. Teddy

[Blackwater]

It's really great to see the more humorous comments here. Thanks, guys. And I can't recall who said it, but it very well MIGHT be a sign of mental abberation to agree to be a mod. No. 1, at least in my case, is a VERY hard fellow to say no to, and as long as I've been here, I felt I owed it to him and all the members who I've learned so much from, to say yes. Sometimes, I regret that, but .... I'm used to making mistakes, so I think I'll see it through.

And thanks to you who've been so supportive. We try, and I for one always feel rather inadequate to the task. When we err, though, we always try to do it on the side of being more tolerant, rather than less so. We'll never please everyone, and sometimes, it's impossible to even please our own selves. But life never promised to be easy, did it? Only that it'd be worth it if we'll just do our best, and not expect perfection of ourselves, but still try to strive for as close as we can get to it.

Also, I have no problem when members express their opinions about what we do or don't do. It's VERY helpful for us to gauge whether we're somewhere in the vicinity of "wise" or not. Best indication we've yet found is when we get about equal complaints on both sides of whatever issue is involved. A less pretentious group you'll never find, I think. But we're just as human as any member, and if you think we're erring, let us know.

We DO consider all complaints and comments seriously, but that doesn't mean we always act on them. Being a mod is a lot like trying to herd cats, with so many holding such widely divergent views and opinions and bodies of knowledge to form those on. But it's really a VERY good thing to at least have a place where all opinions are freely expressable providing only that they're within civility and morality as devined in our terms of service.

We may well err, and when we do, we feel just like anyone does when they realize they err. Sometimes, we look back, and say "We should have handled this back when (fill in the blank)." But if we adopt THAT stance, and become more active, more true and deep resentment is generated, and we put unnecessary limits on the content of the board. Mostly, we just leave folks who post to their own devices, and don't come to their rescue when they have bitten something off and find they can't handle it well. We also don't act sometimes, when something is questionable and not truly clear cut. We get just as upset and dismayed when threads get surly as any member here, but again, we mostly just leave this up to the members to sort out and deal with.

That's simply because we have faith in YOU, the members, and in the character and wisdom and fidelity of the vast majority who come here. And for that, I think I can speak for all the mods, and give you all a sincere "Thank YOU!" Yeah, we DO sometimes have to suffer someone's rants, but "in for a penny, in for a pound," and that's just part of everyday life these days, and nobody has yet come up with a way to keep folks "perfect." One even gave His life that we might learn and receive good instruction, and have a good example to follow. Even THAT hasn't made any of us "perfect!"

We mods can't prevent folks from being folks, and your understanding and high tolerance of that is MUCH appreciated. At least we DO wind up knowing what others are thinking, and from that, those of us who still care about things like that, CAN, if we but will, come to understand better WHY things work in this board or in this whole world things work out like they do. And maybe we might gain some insight from that into what WE can do as individuals to make things just a little bit better. That's a lofty goal, to be sure, and not one that's easily or readily obtainable since, as I said, it's a lot like herding cats, but at least we have an OPPORTUNITY to develop our higher graces and faculties, and do SOMETHING sometimes that might at least be aimed at making some positive difference to someone - even if it means letting folks run their course, so maybe they'll see things differently (sometimes at least?) in the end.

Thanks to all of you for the character you so often display. It really matters, here and wherever we choose to display our better sides. It always will.

[popper]

Never been a MOD, never want to be. You guys do a swell job. Our Town is fine, I don't do 'social media' and it's one place to 'meet & greet' others. The MJ thread was OP looking for a possible medical solution and quickly degenerated into a yea/nay discussion. If I get badly 'ticked' I just don't post for a while. If I leave I'll just unsubscribe and not leave a comment.

[Down South]

I've always known that the Mods here have their hands full. I've often though how tough their job is.
It takes a lot of time out of their days & "Night" to keep up with current and new threads and posts to those threads.
Mentally, I've tried to put myself in their position. What would it take? Well, I'd have to be in a retired position because my busy day wouldn't allow me to watch over the territory assigned to me. You have to be pretty quick to catch some of the stuff that definitely goes against forum rules.
The arguments some of our members get into, I'd have to sit back and scratch my head wondering if and when I'd have to step in.
Our Mods do a great job and my hat is off to you.

[popper]

184528

[Blackwater]

Thanks, Popper! That's the funniest bit of wisdom I've seen in a long time! I'm LOL!

[flyer1]

Folks, you do a great job. Thank you.

[44man]

My opinion of Blackwater as a mod. Tough job my friend but I know you will be fair. I have come to know you even though long distance. You have my respect. All mods do to. Thank you all for keeping things so nice.
As to trolls, I am and have always been a target of them. A troll is someone that picks a person and waits for a chance to pounce. They never post any information to help, they are lost in the process of Cast Boolits. They are personal in attacks. I will always say about a process but never about a member. Wrong lube, wrong primer, etc. But the man is important. I have made mistakes of course and have apologized. My nature is to love all of you. You are family. I have said things I regret but there is also truth I will not give up.

[Blackwater]

Thanks, 44man, I feel the same way about you and just about all who post here. I can even appreciate at least some traits of the "trouble makers" here. I come from a world where folks used to be able to discuss stuff and get red in the face in the process, but it was always over when it was over - kind'a like what Yogi said. It seems to be in style now to hold grudges and pout and fume. I'm thankful I didn't have that modeled for me early on. But then, my Dad was an old Marine, and those men HAD to think their way through most of their lives. Mom was orphaned at 15, and there WAS nobody but her to do her thinking. I was SO lucky to grow up with the parents I did! I thank God for them all the time now.

"Modern" man seems to think all he has to do is think something, and it's ipso facto the way things are. Man has always had to struggle to survive, and it's come in all manner of forms and ways. But it's how we learn, IF we'll just think about it ourselves, and don't just mimic those around us. I may not be that bright, but I DO try to do my own thinking for myself. When I'm wrong, and it can be shown to me, I'm always thankful to those who've shown me. Who'd want to go through life in error??? I just don't understand "modern ethics." They just don't make sense to me!

[jonp]

Well, seems I've missed something. That thread/subject didn't interest me so I didn't read any of it, now I'm going to go there and read some but I already know how it's going to go.

I've been a forum owner, admin and mod. Sucks, you don't make friends and someone is always there that wants to push the limits and boundaries. The rules here are very lax and the mods do a good job of letting people go within reason. I post less in the other threads than in the pit because most on here know vastly more than I do about casting and reloading not to mention different firearms so reading is much more informative for me with a few questions to clear stuff up. In short, I think the mods do a pretty good job here.

[Green Ghost]

I just wanted to say thank you to the moderators for keeping this the best site on the internet. It's a hard job that every Mod I've had contact with has been more than up to the task.

Jerry

[Battis]

Some points...
1. Moderators should never participate in a discussion, especially when they have the power to pull the plug on that discussion, no more than a hockey ref should get involved in the game. Either play or referee but not both.
2. If there's the slightest hint that a thread is going wrong, and you realize that you might pull the plug on it at some point, pull it early. Again, a hockey ref should control the game before brawls break out.
3. A forum, like our country, should be governed by the rule of law, not by the majority. When the rules that are in place are violated, there should be penalties enacted. If the MJ thread had been stopped early, you might not have lost some otherwise vital, knowledgeable posters.

[6bg6ga]

Battis,Moderators should never articipate in a discussion? Really? They have just as much right to participate as any other member. This is what a forum is, does. You cannot compare a discussion to a hockey game. I believe a panel of mods figure out when to pull the plug on a thread. My opinion here... those that left the forum didn't have to leave. If they disagreed with the thread then all they needed to do is not visit the thread. I believe its more of a control ploy.... If you don't stop I'll leave. They left and life still goes on. Move on.

[Hickory]

I see nothing wrong with a lively discussion when it's civil. The bullying techniques (you better agree with me because I'll never stand down until you do) attitude of some here have become tiring and counterproductive to civil debate and discussion.
It's human nature to strike back against being bullied and being pushed around by someone who thinks themselves smarter and superior to others.
Everyone has an opinion whether they express themselves or not, but the 'I'm right and you are stupid because you don't know what you don't know' attitude has become more the problem as I see it.
I just wonder when bullying stops and trolling begins, there doesn't seem to be a line in the sand.

[Battis]

Moderators should never articipate in a discussion? Really?
Really. If they want to participate in a discussion then they must take off their Moderator Hat. Switch hockey ref for cop. Look back at the last presidential debates when the moderators injected their opinions into the debate - it's unfair and unbalanced.
That being said, I did give an "atta boy" to the moderators during the MJ debate for letting it go, but then they stopped it.

[6bg6ga]

I believe in calm discussions and I also don't believe in the word "Troll" In this forum lately if someone disagrees the word "troll" seems to popping up to many times. Certain threads here like the MJ thread should be closed because you have dopers on one side and those that will never partake on the other. Unstopped it will go on as long as there is space on the server to record such non-sense. Like I mentioned I have been a mod and I have also started two dfferent forums so I probably have a biased opinion. Tempers will always flare and for the most part they do a decent job here. Some in the past (past mods) have had attitudes that they are on a higher plane than the common posters. Note 2 strikes on my record.

[dragon813gt]

Certain threads here like the MJ thread should be closed because you have dopers on one side and those that will never partake on the other. Unstopped it will go on as long as there is space on the server to record such non-sense.

You do realize you just did the same thing. Replace doper w/ troll and you're calling someone w/ a differing opinion a name for no reason. I don't know how many times I can state that I don't use it. You're just as guilty as the people calling everyone a troll.

I do agree that the discussion will never end. To many people are set in their ways and not willing to accept when they may be wrong.

[sparky45]

This is by far the best response of ALL the posts in this thread, hands down! Very well thought out and pinpoint accurate, especially #1.



Some points...
1. Moderators should never participate in a discussion, especially when they have the power to pull the plug on that discussion, no more than a hockey ref should get involved in the game. Either play or referee but not both.
2. If there's the slightest hint that a thread is going wrong, and you realize that you might pull the plug on it at some point, pull it early. Again, a hockey ref should control the game before brawls break out.
3. A forum, like our country, should be governed by the rule of law, not by the majority. When the rules that are in place are violated, there should be penalties enacted. If the MJ thread had been stopped early, you might not have lost some otherwise vital, knowledgeable posters.

[Tackleberry41]

This is the current issue. If you don't agree w/ the majority(or maybe just the loudest) you're labeled a troll or liberal and it's suggested you should leave. Living in an echo chamber is no way to learn. All it does is strengthen your confirmation bias. We all have different experiences and live in different areas. Those in really rural areas would find it hard to live in a city and vice versa. Both would want to change things to make it more like where they came from. No matter how much you want things to stay the same it's an impossibility.

This seems to be a huge issue in gun forums, being somewhat conservative places, many are quick to throw out the L word. You walk lock step with what some believe or bang your 'just some stupid liberal'. Quickly put on ignore, and soon questions go unanswered. I have been in forums with even less tolerance, and the mods making things worse. I see way to many try to live in an echo chamber, no its not the way to go about things. Imagine if cast bullets was always the same, there was no innovation or new ideas. Powder coating was some liberal plot.

I watched the marijuana thread go down hill quick, instead of just moving on, they had to inject their personal dislike of drugs, all drugs. Tho somehow tobacco and alcohol are....different. Seen it in other forums, a little weed or alot your some lazy pot head. Oh I know some serious pot heads, people who never seem to get anywhere in life. People whos lives revolve around staying high. So we should just ignore any positive benefits of occasional use. Using the same logic we should try alcohol prohibition again since many abuse alcohol. My mother will actually ask me if I have what I need, she knows the VA is useless. So if a little weed in the evening is what it takes, than thats what it takes. But if we met at a gun store you would never know.

I see Christians talking compassion, but seem to be severely lacking in real life.

[Boaz]

Some points...
1. Moderators should never participate in a discussion, especially when they have the power to pull the plug on that discussion, no more than a hockey ref should get involved in the game. Either play or referee but not both.
2. If there's the slightest hint that a thread is going wrong, and you realize that you might pull the plug on it at some point, pull it early. Again, a hockey ref should control the game before brawls break out.
3. A forum, like our country, should be governed by the rule of law, not by the majority. When the rules that are in place are violated, there should be penalties enacted. If the MJ thread had been stopped early, you might not have lost some otherwise vital, knowledgeable posters.

Honestly don't understand the logic in your statement . Who better to keep things running than our peers ? Haven't seen a single mod chastise/torment anyone for not agreeing with them . Seems they are more than fair in their decisions . Mods are members along with the rest of us so why shouldn't they contribute to the threads .

[sparky45]

While what you say is semi correct, some mods are a bit heavy handed and argumentative.

[dragon813gt]

While what you say is semi correct, some mods are a bit heavy handed and argumentative.

Well they are human. And we all have opinions. Hopefully the mod realizes he's become emotionally invested. Moderating abilities are compromised when this happens. So it's in their best interest to not moderate that particular thread. Or they can remove themselves entirely. But this really doesn't serve any purpose. The mods here do a good job. I don't know why anyone would want to do it.

[sparky45]

On that we agree.

[Battis]

"Honestly don't understand the logic in your statement"
Think of a cop at a rally or protest - they are there to keep the peace, enforce laws, etc, but not to give their side of the protest, for or against. Like I said, think back to the presidential debates where the moderators gave their opinions - it doesn't work. The mods here are very good, but the potential exists that if you argue with a moderator and they don't like what you say, they can ban you from the forum. Take off the Moderator Hat and join in, but once a moderator joins in they should have no say on whether the thread continues or not.

[Boaz]

"Honestly don't understand the logic in your statement"
Think of a cop at a rally or protest - they are there to keep the peace, enforce laws, etc, but not to give their side of the protest, for or against. Like I said, think back to the presidential debates where the moderators gave their opinions - it doesn't work. The mods here are very good, but the potential exists that if you argue with a moderator and they don't like what you say, they can ban you from the forum. Take off the Moderator Hat and join in, but once a moderator joins in they should have no say on whether the thread continues or not.

Not here to debate ...simply made a statement from what I see and personal experience . I have disagreed on the board with a few mods in normal conversation and never had a problem . No personal vendettas to my knowledge as to a mod picking on anyone because of personal opinion .

[dverna]

Some points...
1. Moderators should never participate in a discussion, especially when they have the power to pull the plug on that discussion, no more than a hockey ref should get involved in the game. Either play or referee but not both.
2. If there's the slightest hint that a thread is going wrong, and you realize that you might pull the plug on it at some point, pull it early. Again, a hockey ref should control the game before brawls break out.
3. A forum, like our country, should be governed by the rule of law, not by the majority. When the rules that are in place are violated, there should be penalties enacted. If the MJ thread had been stopped early, you might not have lost some otherwise vital, knowledgeable posters.

Some excellent points...especially the first one.

Everyone is biased. Mods are no different. It is difficult to be "fair and balanced" when something important to a person is under attack. Religion and politics are two of the worst. All of us have seen it happen. Once a Mod weighs in, it "releases the hounds" so to speak. Other like minded folks get a little more confident, pile on, and test the line. Those on the other side of the issue feel more threatened. The playing field gets tilted.

I do not feel sorry for the Mods. If they did not want to do the job, they could step down. I fully understand they have a tough job to do...been there done that.

BTW, do you folks realize the PIT is the most active forum on this site? And it has NOTHING to do with our hobby. I suspect most of the issues the Mods deal with arise from the PIT. This speaks to another point that Battis makes. Losing people who are not like minded when it comes to politics, religion etc; and as R5R said on another thread "becoming a echo chamber for the good old boys" (sorry if I misquoted you R5R but it was close enough to that, and I cannot find the post) Just to clear, R5R did NOT say he would do that, or wanted to...but he could. What Battis and I are saying, is that process is going on whether it is intentional for not. Unintended consequences.

My hope is that the site does not devolve to a community of like minded (or should I say closed minded) folks when it comes to religion, politics, race, etc. That is the challenge our moderators face.

Not all liberals are trolls, not all Bitter Clingers are trolls, not all foreigners are trolls, not all atheists are trolls, not all Fundamentalists are trolls, not all gays are trolls, not all______ (fill in the blanks) are trolls.

One last observation. I have been monitoring our site stats. At any one time, we have 2-3 more guests than members on the site. It costs nothing to become a member so I am puzzled by it. It seems like a significant opportunity for growth/revenue. I understand guests cannot post in the PIT. But if they can view it, they should be blocked. We do not present well in the PIT.

Don Verna

[Boaz]

Some excellent points...especially the first one.

Everyone is biased. Mods are no different. It is difficult to be "fair and balanced" when something important to a person is under attack. Religion and politics are two of the worst. All of us have seen it happen. Once a Mod weighs in, it "releases the hounds" so to speak. Other like minded folks get a little more confident, pile on, and test the line. Those on the other side of the issue feel more threatened. The playing field gets tilted.

I do not feel sorry for the Mods. If they did not want to do the job, they could step down. I fully understand they have a tough job to do...been there done that.

BTW, do you folks realize the PIT is the most active forum on this site? And it has NOTHING to do with our hobby. I suspect most of the issues the Mods deal with arise from the PIT. This speaks to another point that Battis makes. Losing people who are not like minded when it comes to politics, religion etc; and as R5R said on another thread "becoming a echo chamber for the good old boys" (sorry if I misquoted you R5R but it was close enough to that, and I cannot find the post) Just to clear, R5R did NOT say he would do that, or wanted to...but he could. What Battis and I are saying, is that process is going on whether it is intentional for not. Unintended consequences.

My hope is that the site does not devolve to a community of like minded (or should I say closed minded) folks when it comes to religion, politics, race, etc. That is the challenge our moderators face.

Not all liberals are trolls, not all Bitter Clingers are trolls, not all foreigners are trolls, not all atheists are trolls, not all Fundamentalists are trolls, not all gays are trolls, not all______ (fill in the blanks) are trolls.

One last observation. I have been monitoring our site stats. At any one time, we have 2-3 more guests than members on the site. It costs nothing to become a member so I am puzzled by it. It seems like a significant opportunity for growth/revenue. I understand guests cannot post in the PIT. But if they can view it, they should be blocked. We do not present well in the PIT.

Don Verna


Visitors can't see the pit .

[44man]

My definition of a troll is someone that lurks and looks for something to bash.
Now even many here will get cross over something that is not offensive at all. But either person does not go over the line. It bothers me when I see it but it gets straitened out.
I see it a lot and wonder why anyone will even take offense.
Then remember a mod is a member and has a voice to post. He is one of us that just has control over conflict that gets personal. Cussing not allowed so most of us add stars or something to show meaning without the site catching it. I cuss at myself more anyway.
Should mods post? Yes, I would hate to lose their knowledge.
I do not go to the pit for any reason. My goal is shooters and politics gets in with states now and then.

[Blackwater]

Some points...
1. Moderators should never participate in a discussion, especially when they have the power to pull the plug on that discussion, no more than a hockey ref should get involved in the game. Either play or referee but not both.
2. If there's the slightest hint that a thread is going wrong, and you realize that you might pull the plug on it at some point, pull it early. Again, a hockey ref should control the game before brawls break out.
3. A forum, like our country, should be governed by the rule of law, not by the majority. When the rules that are in place are violated, there should be penalties enacted. If the MJ thread had been stopped early, you might not have lost some otherwise vital, knowledgeable posters.

Battis, you bring up some points that are frequently points of contention and disagreements. Let me attempt to address them from MY perspective.

First of, re #1, I was asked to help mod the site. I didn't ask for the job. And I have ZERO intentions of merely being a "policeman" for the site, and denying myself the right to post. If that makes me a "bad mod," then so be it. As I said, I didn't ask for the job, I was commissioned, and No. 1 is awfully hard to say no to. However, you and all should know that the mods have established a rule that if one of us is involved in a discussion that gets contentious, that mod CANNOT be involved in dealing with it. If I or any others were to be involved in a contentious discussion, we can take it to the OTHER mods, just like anyone else. There are some "super mods" that have "powers" that the rest don't, as well, and THEY make many final decisions, when there's much contention involved. So never think you can't argue with someone here, just because they've got that little green "mod" by their name. I and all the rest are just as kosher for your complaints and arguments as anyone, and we have no power to "hammer" anyone for simply disagreeing.

Also, I see no reason why someone's opinion should be hushed up, just for being a mod. Maybe you can explain that to me? We love this site as much or more than anyone, because we're willing to subject ourselves to the slings and arrows that are always attendant to being a mod. But hush us up and make us "policemen" with no right to post? I think not! It sounds like it'd be a good idea, but it'll never really fly, and is very, very rare on any forums I've been to. We're not referees. We're just guys like all of you, with a little added responsibility. When No. 1 asked me to be a mod, I was kind'a shocked, really, because I don't mind a good, spirited and straight up argument. But I also don't hold grudges, either. Life's WAY too short for that! And as a mod, one thing you quickly realize, is that folks have "bad days" once in a while. I mentioned one fellow who's always been a perfect model of a gentleman who recently went WAY outside his norm, and he's subsequently apologized, and really, no harm was done. That, my friends, is CHARACTER, and is what I spoke of previously in this thread. And most of us DO sometimes have a "bad day" for any number of reasons. But if you want a friend, you really have to BE a friend, and look over someone when they do something totally out of character. It's simple forgiveness and understanding in action. God help us if we ever lose THAT!!!

So while it might SEEM to be reasonable, it's just not here, in actual practice. I understand it completely, but don't be afraid of a mod. We're FAR from being arbitrary and capricious, just because of some argument over some point in contention. And we're very reluctant here to intervene, and I think it shows pretty clearly. Especially in the pit, where everyone is warned before clicking on the entry icon, that many posts may not be palatable to some. Add to that, the simple fact that most of us today have absorbed probably way too much cynicism and haughtiness over the past 30 years + due to the politics, and the idiotic changes that our "representatives" have given us, and .... well, you know how that goes, don't you? But look at all the real and good character that's displayed also! Only cynicism blinds us to all that, and to the great posts there. So jump in, but don't expect it to be easy to state an opinion or analysis without being countered by somebody there. We don't cull anyone there unless it's really, really necessary. I know many would like to hear only their opinions being affirmed, and it gets tedious sometimes when someone always seems to point out some little something that wasn't clear from one of your or our posts, but ... what do we really expect a place to discuss and argue varying opinions, and what subjects generate contention than politics and religion??? I think the pit is a great place. Not a "Perfect" place, but a very good one BECAUSE we allow everyone to have a say, whether it seems supportable or not. It's a place for folks to state what they TRULY think, even if it seems "wrong" or "foolish" or neglectful of ALL the facts. It's just a place where folks with a little bit of constitution within themselves can go to find out what folks think, and to enter their own opinions and analyses too. Very simple, really. And none of us mods, nor all of us together, can stop folks from wearing their feelings on their sleeves, and getting a bit too hot from time to time. And sometimes, we don't even send a PM to try to tone them down, for fear it'll just make them hotter. So a little "tolerance" is required there by all who post there, or even just read. Not too big a thing to ask, is it?

Second point: Not allowing real, bona fide discussion serves ONLY those who think that particular way, and it's just not how No. 1 and most others have chosen to conduct this forum. Those with sentiments so sensitive that they can't tolerate some disagreement might need to go where the water's a little warmer and more pleasant. But though I'm the jr. mod in the crowd, I don't anticipate this changing. We DO close or lock or delete a thread from time to time, but we keep it to a bare minimum, and only when it seems to offer nothing in return for the dissension it creates. Folks who can't stand being countered probably shouldn't enter the pit, and I think we've made that pretty clear at the doorway to it.

Third point: That also sounds at first like a great idea, but suppression is a far cry from any type of "freedom" or "liberty." Winston Churchill once said that "democracy is the absolute WORST form of gov't .... except for all the others." There's an awful lot of Truth in that, and therein lies the reason we allow what we do here. Don't like a thread? Join the club!!! We ALL, members and mods alike, find that from time to time. But that's just a reflection of life itself. Does YOUR life always go the way you want it to? I didn't think so. Why expect that here? No. 1 and crew have established a good, very open forum, where just about anyone can come in and learn, help others, and see if their opinions really hold water when tested against others' that run counter to their own thoughts. What's so wrong with that???

So you make some good points, and these are just the reasons and thoughts that have come to guide this place. Its success seems to indicate that most folks appreciate this, even if it sometimes results in an emotion being piqued here and there. I like the freedom and sincerity and helpfulness that reigns here. I think most do also, even though there's always some contentious member who wants to think it's all about them, or that thinks only THEY know the REAL truth about things. But in today's world, if someone can come up with a suggestion to eliminate those, on a fair and unbiased grounds, and still have this place be what it is, we're sitting here waiting to hear about it. I mean that, too. We often hear about what we should or shouldn't do as mods. And occasionally, we find someone is right, but at least sometimes, we'd already come to that conclusion already. Mostly, those are when we realize "We ought'a stopped this back when (fill in the blank)." But we do the best we can. The rest is up to all of you folks, and I for one am very proud the vast majority conduct themselves as they do so often. YOU make this place what it is. All we can do is offer you a playground. You decide whether it's used to play or fight. Thanks for all you guys do to make this a very good place. Without you, it wouldn't be here, and we'd all be the poorer for it. I have cast for well over 40 years, and STILL learn from the folks here! I consider that enough to warrant the occasional "problem" encountered here. It seems most here do as well, I think.

Folks, we can't make it perfect, or keep you from being offended at times, but we DO try to keep it as "clean" as we think we rightfully can and should. I don't know anything more we really CAN do. Thanks for all your understanding in this.

[Battis]

This is one of the best forums I've found, which reflects on the Moderators. But, like it or not, a moderator does have "police" power - you can pull the plug on me right now, but I can't do it to you. If one out of 100 or 1000 moderators abuses their powers because of conflicting views just once, that backs up my point. It's the same with cops. For me or anyone to say that you should have stopped it sooner, or that you should have let it go longer, or you shouldn't have been involved, is wrong, but, as you probably know, it's to be expected with the job.
Contentious threads are like car wrecks - sometimes it's hard to turn away from them, even when you know you should. And no good usually comes from them. What was accomplished from that MJ thread? In regards to the original post - nothing.

[Omega]

I look at it this way, a mod has his right to an opinion as much as anyone. But once a mod decides to post in a contentious thread, then they should take the mod hat off and allow another to moderate the posts in that thread, as it seems the rule is. I neither envy nor do I feel sorry for the mods, they chose to accept the responsibility and should carry it out until they can no longer tolerate it. I have been a mod, and have had to shut-up about certain subjects, not because I did not have an opinion, but because I had to be a mod first and my opinion did not matter in the large scheme of things. Mods do not always have to add their 2 pence, not that they can't of course, but when there are enough on each side keeping the thread going does an extra voice really help?.
Threads like the MJ thread do some good, not because it answers any question in particular, or even changes anyone's mind, but because discussion is always good, and lets us know what others think. I hate that anyone leaves because of any thread, but it seems like it can be just about any subject which could bring out the worst, or best, in people. As a guest, I try and abide by the established rules, whether I agree with them or not, and if I know certain people get worked up about certain things, then I stay away from them. I don't want to be the cause of someone getting points, time out or banned, it's just not worth it. There are a few here that have voiced positions that have been bigoted, and some down right insulting and seem to have quite a following and support. But I have a thick skin and until it is directed at me, I don't let it bother me enough to report it. I figure if the mods let it slide, then maybe it is officially supported, or may just be being handled behind the scenes, who knows.

[runfiverun]

close enough Don.

even if a Moderator pulls out the hammer it can be reversed.
we have a system in place to try and keep things from getting out of hand.
first a PM to the member.
this sometimes leads to other problems between the receiver and the sender.
if you feel wronged by the first PM, send one to another moderator to discuss your side of things.
if your response is *****8 and **** your horse, dog, and mom.
you probably don't want to send it.

second is points.
this gets things across a little bit clearer to the member.
most of us hate giving points.
you gotta be really pushing things or be clearly over the line to get them.

third is a 10 day vacation.
and then a Ban.
sometimes number 3 is skipped depending on where the problem occurred, and what it was.
dropping 6 starred out words in a thread in our town will get you some time off if you have a previous issue.

so you can see there is some latitude in the system and each case is looked at as something different.
if a mistake is made we can reverse it.

[sparky45]

Can you tell me if a mod, ANY mod has had an infraction as a mod? If not, then that would certainly give the appearance of preference or special treatment. Not saying that's the case, I'm just curious. I've had a mod be EXTREMELY RUDE in his remarks to me in the past and I was just curious as to how those matters are discussed or treated. You don't even have to answer if you don't want to, I'll understand.
As far as the "Ignore tab", it's fruitless most of the time especially when the "ignored" is quoted in a thread.
Thanks



Battis, you bring up some points that are frequently points of contention and disagreements. Let me attempt to address them from MY perspective.

First of, re #1, I was asked to help mod the site. I didn't ask for the job. And I have ZERO intentions of merely being a "policeman" for the site, and denying myself the right to post. If that makes me a "bad mod," then so be it. As I said, I didn't ask for the job, I was commissioned, and No. 1 is awfully hard to say no to. However, you and all should know that the mods have established a rule that if one of us is involved in a discussion that gets contentious, that mod CANNOT be involved in dealing with it. If I or any others were to be involved in a contentious discussion, we can take it to the OTHER mods, just like anyone else. There are some "super mods" that have "powers" that the rest don't, as well, and THEY make many final decisions, when there's much contention involved. So never think you can't argue with someone here, just because they've got that little green "mod" by their name. I and all the rest are just as kosher for your complaints and arguments as anyone, and we have no power to "hammer" anyone for simply disagreeing.

Also, I see no reason why someone's opinion should be hushed up, just for being a mod. Maybe you can explain that to me? We love this site as much or more than anyone, because we're willing to subject ourselves to the slings and arrows that are always attendant to being a mod. But hush us up and make us "policemen" with no right to post? I think not! It sounds like it'd be a good idea, but it'll never really fly, and is very, very rare on any forums I've been to. We're not referees. We're just guys like all of you, with a little added responsibility. When No. 1 asked me to be a mod, I was kind'a shocked, really, because I don't mind a good, spirited and straight up argument. But I also don't hold grudges, either. Life's WAY too short for that! And as a mod, one thing you quickly realize, is that folks have "bad days" once in a while. I mentioned one fellow who's always been a perfect model of a gentleman who recently went WAY outside his norm, and he's subsequently apologized, and really, no harm was done. That, my friends, is CHARACTER, and is what I spoke of previously in this thread. And most of us DO sometimes have a "bad day" for any number of reasons. But if you want a friend, you really have to BE a friend, and look over someone when they do something totally out of character. It's simple forgiveness and understanding in action. God help us if we ever lose THAT!!!

So while it might SEEM to be reasonable, it's just not here, in actual practice. I understand it completely, but don't be afraid of a mod. We're FAR from being arbitrary and capricious, just because of some argument over some point in contention. And we're very reluctant here to intervene, and I think it shows pretty clearly. Especially in the pit, where everyone is warned before clicking on the entry icon, that many posts may not be palatable to some. Add to that, the simple fact that most of us today have absorbed probably way too much cynicism and haughtiness over the past 30 years + due to the politics, and the idiotic changes that our "representatives" have given us, and .... well, you know how that goes, don't you? But look at all the real and good character that's displayed also! Only cynicism blinds us to all that, and to the great posts there. So jump in, but don't expect it to be easy to state an opinion or analysis without being countered by somebody there. We don't cull anyone there unless it's really, really necessary. I know many would like to hear only their opinions being affirmed, and it gets tedious sometimes when someone always seems to point out some little something that wasn't clear from one of your or our posts, but ... what do we really expect a place to discuss and argue varying opinions, and what subjects generate contention than politics and religion??? I think the pit is a great place. Not a "Perfect" place, but a very good one BECAUSE we allow everyone to have a say, whether it seems supportable or not. It's a place for folks to state what they TRULY think, even if it seems "wrong" or "foolish" or neglectful of ALL the facts. It's just a place where folks with a little bit of constitution within themselves can go to find out what folks think, and to enter their own opinions and analyses too. Very simple, really. And none of us mods, nor all of us together, can stop folks from wearing their feelings on their sleeves, and getting a bit too hot from time to time. And sometimes, we don't even send a PM to try to tone them down, for fear it'll just make them hotter. So a little "tolerance" is required there by all who post there, or even just read. Not too big a thing to ask, is it?

Second point: Not allowing real, bona fide discussion serves ONLY those who think that particular way, and it's just not how No. 1 and most others have chosen to conduct this forum. Those with sentiments so sensitive that they can't tolerate some disagreement might need to go where the water's a little warmer and more pleasant. But though I'm the jr. mod in the crowd, I don't anticipate this changing. We DO close or lock or delete a thread from time to time, but we keep it to a bare minimum, and only when it seems to offer nothing in return for the dissension it creates. Folks who can't stand being countered probably shouldn't enter the pit, and I think we've made that pretty clear at the doorway to it.

Third point: That also sounds at first like a great idea, but suppression is a far cry from any type of "freedom" or "liberty." Winston Churchill once said that "democracy is the absolute WORST form of gov't .... except for all the others." There's an awful lot of Truth in that, and therein lies the reason we allow what we do here. Don't like a thread? Join the club!!! We ALL, members and mods alike, find that from time to time. But that's just a reflection of life itself. Does YOUR life always go the way you want it to? I didn't think so. Why expect that here? No. 1 and crew have established a good, very open forum, where just about anyone can come in and learn, help others, and see if their opinions really hold water when tested against others' that run counter to their own thoughts. What's so wrong with that???

So you make some good points, and these are just the reasons and thoughts that have come to guide this place. Its success seems to indicate that most folks appreciate this, even if it sometimes results in an emotion being piqued here and there. I like the freedom and sincerity and helpfulness that reigns here. I think most do also, even though there's always some contentious member who wants to think it's all about them, or that thinks only THEY know the REAL truth about things. But in today's world, if someone can come up with a suggestion to eliminate those, on a fair and unbiased grounds, and still have this place be what it is, we're sitting here waiting to hear about it. I mean that, too. We often hear about what we should or shouldn't do as mods. And occasionally, we find someone is right, but at least sometimes, we'd already come to that conclusion already. Mostly, those are when we realize "We ought'a stopped this back when (fill in the blank)." But we do the best we can. The rest is up to all of you folks, and I for one am very proud the vast majority conduct themselves as they do so often. YOU make this place what it is. All we can do is offer you a playground. You decide whether it's used to play or fight. Thanks for all you guys do to make this a very good place. Without you, it wouldn't be here, and we'd all be the poorer for it. I have cast for well over 40 years, and STILL learn from the folks here! I consider that enough to warrant the occasional "problem" encountered here. It seems most here do as well, I think.

Folks, we can't make it perfect, or keep you from being offended at times, but we DO try to keep it as "clean" as we think we rightfully can and should. I don't know anything more we really CAN do. Thanks for all your understanding in this.

[runfiverun]

actually several of them have.
a couple have been removed as mods and eventually banned from the site.

[sparky45]

Thanks R5R; good to know.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

While what you say is semi correct, some mods are a bit heavy handed and argumentative.


Can you tell me if a mod, ANY mod has had an infraction as a mod? If not, then that would certainly give the appearance of preference or special treatment. Not saying that's the case, I'm just curious. I've had a mod be EXTREMELY RUDE in his remarks to me in the past and I was just curious as to how those matters are discussed or treated. You don't even have to answer if you don't want to, I'll understand.
As far as the "Ignore tab", it's fruitless most of the time especially when the "ignored" is quoted in a thread.
Thanks

I imagine you are talkin' about me.

FYI, I have never received an infraction. But before I was a Mod, one time, I was gently warned via PM, by R5R.

If you felt I was rude or extremely rude to you in our lengthy PM conversation (last month) about the PIT infraction that I gave you, then you should report that PM, as that is the "only way" anything would ever get done about it.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

close enough Don.

even if a Moderator pulls out the hammer it can be reversed.
we have a system in place to try and keep things from getting out of hand.
first a PM to the member.
this sometimes leads to other problems between the receiver and the sender.
if you feel wronged by the first PM, send one to another moderator to discuss your side of things.
if your response is *****8 and **** your horse, dog, and mom.
you probably don't want to send it.

second is points.
this gets things across a little bit clearer to the member.
most of us hate giving points.
you gotta be really pushing things or be clearly over the line to get them.

third is a 10 day vacation.
and then a Ban.
sometimes number 3 is skipped depending on where the problem occurred, and what it was.
dropping 6 starred out words in a thread in our town will get you some time off if you have a previous issue.

so you can see there is some latitude in the system and each case is looked at as something different.
if a mistake is made we can reverse it.
That ^^^ is all correct.

I would add that we (mods) generally are less strict in the PIT, meaning if the conversation is HOT and people are getting real close to the LINE, but not crossing the LINE, we generally let it go...let the Players hash it out, so to speak. Some Mods may make a short post, just to show the Players that a mod is watching, I rarely do that, but I know others do. As for comparison, if discussions get HOT in the other parts of the forum, we will be more strict and send a PM warning or even give out a warning without points...to cool things down. (BTW, that's what I got a warning for, on the topic of casting for AR).

I would like to add, I strongly dislike the PIT, I try to avoid the PIT, I don't post there very often, and generally when I do, it's one of the FUN threads.

So, when someone reports a post in the PIT, and I am forced to go there, and there is a infraction (even if it's a mild one), especially if the offender is a PIT regular, I will "always" give an infraction with points. Some may take that as heavy handed.

There you go...

[DCP]

If they would stop counting post, that go to your post count, that are in the pit. It might help

[dragon813gt]

What would that accomplish?

[DCP]

What would that accomplish?

Folks will not be able to pad post count. on non firearms issues (like this)

[Omega]

If they would stop counting post, that go to your post count, that are in the pit. It might helpI like it, but it should include all non firearm related forums as well, to include Our Town (Hunting-with-CB-s should be moved to Guns & Shooting).

[DCP]

I like it, but it should include all non firearm related forums as well, to include Our Town (Hunting-with-CB-s should be moved to Guns & Shooting).

Yes thats the point, lots of ways to modify it

[sparky45]

Wish I would have been extended the courtesy of a warning, after all the post I commented on was path****.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Wish I would have been extended the courtesy of a warning, after all the post I commented on was path****.


This is by far the best response of ALL the posts in this thread, hands down! Very well thought out and pinpoint accurate, especially #1.

Some points...
1. Moderators should never participate in a discussion, especially when they have the power to pull the plug on that discussion, no more than a hockey ref should get involved in the game. Either play or referee but not both.
2. If there's the slightest hint that a thread is going wrong, and you realize that you might pull the plug on it at some point, pull it early. Again, a hockey ref should control the game before brawls break out.
3. A forum, like our country, should be governed by the rule of law, not by the majority. When the rules that are in place are violated, there should be penalties enacted. If the MJ thread had been stopped early, you might not have lost some otherwise vital, knowledgeable posters.

http://images.zaazu.com/img/scratch-head03-idea-animated-animation-smiley-emoticon-000416-facebook.gif

[sparky45]

And I do agree with Battis's statement. I contend I didn't violate the "rules", certainly not a rule that required an infraction. Is the word "pathetic" a word that the PC police consider an egregious "expletive"? And if it is, where is the list of words considered taboo? A little help in this area would be appreciated.
BTW, I consider your use of the emoticon above as an example of your attempt to be confrontational without saying a word. Are you allowed to do that? Why didn't you relate that to me in a PM, it would have been less embarrassing for both of us.

[white eagle]

if a person does not agree with a thread or topic
it simple just don't open it

[sparky45]

Actually Jon, you're actually making Battis's point for him.

[Electric88]

He did confront you, in post #79... It went largely ignored...

[runfiverun]

sparky your doing it again.
we have a whole section for the TOS here.
it's right up there on a little bar to the left of the search function.

look at TOS number-4.
it covers just being a general pain in the ***..

[ShooterAZ]

I think that there should be infraction points issued for annoying the Mods.:coffeecom

[DCP]

And I do agree with Battis's statement. I contend I didn't violate the "rules", certainly not a rule that required an infraction. Is the word "pathetic" a word that the PC police consider an egregious "expletive"? And if it is, where is the list of words considered taboo? A little help in this area would be appreciated.
BTW, I consider your use of the emoticon above as an example of your attempt to be confrontational without saying a word. Are you allowed to do that? Why didn't you relate that to me in a PM, it would have been less embarrassing for both of us.

In my humble opinion, the discussion between you and the mods should be taken to PMs

[Omega]

And I do agree with Battis's statement. I contend I didn't violate the "rules", certainly not a rule that required an infraction. Is the word "pathetic" a word that the PC police consider an egregious "expletive"? And if it is, where is the list of words considered taboo? A little help in this area would be appreciated.
BTW, I consider your use of the emoticon above as an example of your attempt to be confrontational without saying a word. Are you allowed to do that? Why didn't you relate that to me in a PM, it would have been less embarrassing for both of us.


In my humble opinion, the discussion between you and the mods should be taken to PMs
IMHO this should just stop before someone gets their undies in a bunch. It's not that serious, Sparky45, you now know you will get points by JonB for any infraction in the PIT, JonB, maybe you should let the other mods handle the PIT.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

"pathetic"

So here's the story:
someone reported a personal insult post in the PIT.
I go to that post, I see that you directly insulted another member by calling them "pathetic".
That surely is a personal insult and is adversarial...a breach of our rules.
I look at your profile, and you have a previous infraction for the same thing given to you by another Mod, it was over a year old, so the points have expired, but in the context of the current violation, it's your second offense. So I gave you a 2nd offense infraction which carries twice as many points of a first offense.

You and I have had about 10 PMs about this infraction, I have explained it to you countless times and you refuse to take accountability for your action. I am posting this here, not for you, as I suspect you will NOT be convinced by any of my words here, I am posting this for the other readers so they have a clue as to the back story about you posting this the following yesterday...


Can you tell me if a mod, ANY mod has had an infraction as a mod? If not, then that would certainly give the appearance of preference or special treatment. Not saying that's the case, I'm just curious. I've had a mod be EXTREMELY RUDE in his remarks to me in the past and I was just curious as to how those matters are discussed or treated. You don't even have to answer if you don't want to, I'll understand.
As far as the "Ignore tab", it's fruitless most of the time especially when the "ignored" is quoted in a thread.
Thanks

[dverna]

I think that there should be infraction points issued for annoying the Mods.:coffeecom

There are...it gets you banned. I doubt many get banned for what they write here....it is how they cope with it that gets them in trouble.

BTW, JonB be gave me my only points on my first error in judgment about a year ago. I screwed up, and deserved it. I have NO ill feelings towards him or how he handled it. He did his JOB!

Get on with life and behave. Simple.

Don Verna

[sparky45]

I refer you to post #88 wherein I specifically asked that the mod(s) address me via PM. That went largely ignored as well. The lesson I learned is not to use the "Path****" word, that's the only word that initiated the action.


In my humble opinion, the discussion between you and the mods should be taken to PMs

[sparky45]

Omega; I agree completely.



IMHO this should just stop before someone gets their undies in a bunch. It's not that serious, Sparky45, you now know you will get points by JonB for any infraction in the PIT, JonB, maybe you should let the other mods handle the PIT.

[Electric88]

Restricting a moderator from issuing infractions in a certain area of the forum is setting a dangerous precedent, and demonstrates a lack of respect for any moderator in that circumstance unless they have demonstrated extreme prejudice against a member. The moderators have been more than fair in any interaction I've ever seen in the forums.

[Omega]

Restricting a moderator from issuing infractions in a certain area of the forum is setting a dangerous precedent, and demonstrates a lack of respect for any moderator in that circumstance unless they have demonstrated extreme prejudice against a member. The moderators have been more than fair in any interaction I've ever seen in the forums.
No disrespect intended, it's not like it has been an issue that needs correction. But if a mod does not like an area, and will issue points just because it's an area they don't like, then maybe it's a good idea to let the other mods handle that area, not an official restriction really, just self restraint. That is why I have also said that if a mod has a vested interest in the discussion, then its best to let another mod handle the mod duties. Apparently the mod squad has already seen the value of that one as it seems that is their rule, written or unwritten. Just like if a mod was real religious, or an devout atheist, then maybe moderating the chapel would be best left to someone who could be impartial, to both sides. The only problem I see with that is that the PIT is probably in the high 90 percentiles of reported posts and there is more than enough so all mods have to take turns, in that case then it is the luck of the draw whether you get a warning, points or the hammer.

[Boaz]

Then....Lets just try to get along ? Live...let live ?

[paul h]

I swear some people are only happy if they have something to complain about.

And no, that's not aimed at the mods.

It's pretty simple, be civilized. I know I'm not the most civilized person but somehow I've managed to never be warned, censured or banned from a hunting/shooting/fishing forum in over 20 years and likely a dozen forums. I think the same holds for most members of most forums.

[shoot-n-lead]

Can't we all just get along... (https://youtu.be/1sONfxPCTU0)

[sparky45]

You do realize a sociopath coined that phrase, right?

[Battis]

Back to the moderator/cop analogy...
A cop driving down the street hears a loud stereo, loud party, etc. That cop cannot tell the people to turn down the music based on the concept of disturbing the peace because a cop's peace cannot be disturbed. But, if someone complains about the noise, the cop can act.
So...can a moderator step in to a thread and tell someone to "knock it off" and even impose penalties if no one has complained about a particular post?

[Boaz]

..............................................lol !!

[Blackwater]

This is one of the best forums I've found, which reflects on the Moderators. But, like it or not, a moderator does have "police" power - you can pull the plug on me right now, but I can't do it to you. If one out of 100 or 1000 moderators abuses their powers because of conflicting views just once, that backs up my point. It's the same with cops. For me or anyone to say that you should have stopped it sooner, or that you should have let it go longer, or you shouldn't have been involved, is wrong, but, as you probably know, it's to be expected with the job.
Contentious threads are like car wrecks - sometimes it's hard to turn away from them, even when you know you should. And no good usually comes from them. What was accomplished from that MJ thread? In regards to the original post - nothing.

Certainly good and valid points. I just quit worrying about being perfect some while ago, and now, just try to be as good and fair and valid as I know how to be. In the end, that's all any of us can do, which is why we mods don't jump at first impulse. We've never claimed to be perfect. So we just try to be as understanding as we know how to be, and as lenient as we feel we can. Life'll never be quite "right" to any of us. Why should anything in it, including this board, be any different? How can we imperfect humans ever make something that's "perfect?" If you find an answer to that one, we mods would love to know! Until then, we just amble along and do the best we know how to do. I just hope we don't ever make any grievous mistakes. So far, I haven't seen any. And sometimes, when we discuss things in the Staff area, things are revealed that not everyone may know about. So .... we just do what we can, and leave the rest to posterity. It's all we CAN do, really. But thanks for the thoughtful input. We're not unmindful that we're not perfect, and good, honest opinions are always welcome, even if they're not full of lauding and praise. We're VERY aware that we aren't perfect, and that some situations have no real good solution. It's like in golf. Sometimes we just have to swing and see if we can still hit the ball somewhere that's not too terribly deep in the rough. And if needs be, we can always go find it in the woods, take a drop, and try again. Not much we do here is very permanent. So we have that much solace when we think of the variables we may not know about. Thanks for all the understanding and support you all give, even the criticisms. It matters.

[shoot-n-lead]

You do realize a sociopath coined that phrase, right?

You do realize that was posted in jest...right?


runfiverun

it covers just being a general pain in the ***..

Yep.

[Blackwater]

And to the other questions presented, there's really no way to answer them, because just as Run5 said, each instance is treated as unique, and any obviously due considerations taken into the whole of the debate and decision as to what to do. So ... sorry, but there's really no way to accurately answer, because any answer we give would NOT necessarily apply to other "nominally similar" situations, for the simple reason that each situation has differing variables. I'd think that would be apparent, but maybe not always.

One source we have of complaints about what we do, is simply folks comparing one action to another, when the specifics involved in each were very different. This makes them not really equatable one with the other, but folks aren't always considerate of that factor. The hardes part about modding, really, is the whining. The TOS are about as clear as we can make them, and we STILL try to be tolerant, when we feel we can. It's the intolerance of others that seems to crystalize a great deal of the contentions that occur on any part of this board. But .... folks DO have bad days. I once got a PM warning. And I admitted I was wrong, because I was. Just basically having a bad day, really. And I apologized, and promised not to do that again. And I haven't. So it's not like being a mod gives one an armor to protect them. It's more like a job, and it tends to make us more circumspect ALMOST all the time. We all have our limits, and the whining really gets hard to take past a certain point. But it's so darn common these days, it just seems to go along with the job. But again, thanks to the vast bulk of you whose character and knowledge and senses of humor make this place what it is. To YOU goes all the credit, really. So thanks to each one of you. You really matter here.

[slownsteady22]

It's like going to a bar,if you want to start a fight or argument talk about religion politics or MJ. I'm here for the cast boolits and a little light reading.

Sent from my SM-G925R4 using Tapatalk

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Back to the moderator/cop analogy...
A cop driving down the street hears a loud stereo, loud party, etc. That cop cannot tell the people to turn down the music based on the concept of disturbing the peace because a cop's peace cannot be disturbed. But, if someone complains about the noise, the cop can act.
So...can a moderator step in to a thread and tell someone to "knock it off" and even impose penalties if no one has complained about a particular post?
Yes.

There are 500 to 1000 new posts each day. I don't read them all. I suspect the other Mods don't read them all. If I were a bettin' man, and I am, I'd bet the majority of infractions have been due to a 'report'. Sometimes a post is reported and no action is taken for days, the next time it happens within minutes, as Blackwater mentions, lots of variables.

FYI, IHMO your Cop/Loud noise anecdote is incorrect.

[Battis]

Why is it incorrect?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Why is it incorrect?
because a cop can tell the people to turn down the music based on the concept of disturbing the peace or public nuisance or another grey law.

[RogerDat]

Let me see if I have this correct....

The overpaid moderators are doing it all wrong.
There should be a different process in place for (your pet peeve here) because I think that it is wrong the way the overpaid & underworked moderators handle it. Why? Well because I would do it differently...

Well this is your lucky day! Go online to GoDaddy, and sign up for a host name and web space, then install PHP BB forum software, then sit there and play in your own little sandbox with all the most perfect rules. But I'll bet if you get two additional members they will complain to each other about how you run the site. If one of them is a graphic artist they will complain about how it looks in addition to how you run it. Web designer will ding you for missing features. But they will both agree you are arbitrary and unfair. Heck could be a Bernie and Trump supporter as your only members and they would still agree that you are wrong....

Then we have people leave because:
The moderators allow (my own personal bugaboo here) or won't allow (my own personal passion).

The Pit is a turn off and drives people to stop reloading, stop casting, dispose of all equipment, recycle their lead stash and beat their firearms into plowshares. Hard for the Glock owners but they do it through sheer persistence. Amuses the wheel gun folks a bunch to watch them do all that work for a plow point made of plastic.

I don't really think I have seen a moderator who took advantage of their authority to run rough shod over the other people posting. Even in the pit. I got dinged for a S&S posting that violated the rules. I looked at the rules more carefully, sent a PM to clarify why it was a violation. Thank you have a nice day. I can think of at least a mod or two that I recall being disagreed with and not coming down on the post or member. Might even have been me doing the disagreeing.

If we can't disagree without being disagreeable, rude, or vulgar we either lack the social skills for public interaction or maybe should appreciate someone telling us we are over the line. It is a given some folks are going to rant, some will have strong opinions that they won't change. But when folks won't even listen to each other or themselves it's time to take a break or at least a few deep breaths.

How hard is it really? Most of us do it on a fairly regular basis, or did when we worked. We made some effort to get along with people, not like us. Here is the kicker, these people we disagree with ARE like us. They cast, reload, shoot, repeat. Which only a small percentage of all gun owners do.

I don't smoke pot, I'm not planning on smoking pot, I think it should be regulated and legal. Saying you "Pot heads" to dismiss a point of view or argument I express ignores reality. Don't agree? Fine, just say so. Not going to agree, no matter what? Oh well, lead to water can't make em drink. Not willing to consider anyone else's points or perspective? Then why are you there in that thread? If all you want to do is tell people they are wrong write each member of Congress one at a time. Do that once a day it will keep you busy for a year.

The country is divided, the shooting community is a segment of that same divided perspective. And since this site is lucky enough to have international membership (how cool is that!) we are sure to have widely different ideas, world views or experiences.

If we could all moderate ourselves their wouldn't be anything for the highly paid professional moderator to do to make a living. Fortunately it doesn't look like their is much chance that is going to happen and the moderators can continue to make a good living and have indoor plumbing.

It ain't the herding that is so hard, it's that the cats don't always appreciate the hard work herding them can be that breaks a cat wranglers heart.

184897

Much of that was tongue in cheek, especially anything that offended anyone, especially any Inuit members.

I am plus 1 on not counting the pit in post counts, nothing against the pit but participation there does not indicate being helpful or productive, so the post count from that showing in the profile misleads in terms of actual participation in technical aspects.

[Battis]

because a cop can tell the people to turn down the music based on the concept of disturbing the peace or public nuisance or another grey law.

Well, I'm going back to the academy I attended in 1987 and tell them they were wrong.
Google it.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I have no desire to google noise law.
I used IHMO...
and neither of us used the terms charged or ticketed...it was "a cop can tell the people to turn down the music"

[sparky45]

Of course I realize it was stated in jest, I looked at where you're located.8-)



You do realize that was posted in jest...right?



Yep.

[bruce drake]

I offered to be an Moderator on a proposed Modern Sporting Rifle sub-forum a year or so back and in 2nd sight, I'm almost happy the Mods at the time chose not to expand the forum threads or put me to the wall on my offer and saddle me with job of volunteer moderator (none of our Mods get paid for any of the time they invest in ensuring our forums run cleanly and without major issues (you want issues, go log in and follow www.ar15.com for a while...and then return here and see which is better)).

Bruce

[Battis]

I have no desire to google noise law.
Then don't tell me I'm wrong.
A cop cannot tell someone to turn down loud music unless there's a complaint about that music. The cop's peace cannot be disturbed.
I used the analogy to see if a moderator can be "disturbed" or annoyed without a complaint from another member, or can they just pick and choose what posts should be flagged, censored, etc.

If I were a moderator, I'd tell me that the moderators on this forum do not abuse their power or discretion, and they're doing a good job, and I'd have to agree with myself.

[goodolejim]

On this general subject a year or so ago I made a post which had a reply to which bent my nose way out joint. Wanting to respond I sat about thing all sides of the subject and came to the conclusion that the other person had responded not on a personal level but on his deeply held convections. By the way this is a person whom I have much respect for both his skills and the valid information he shares. I always try to see another persons views. Heavens, I might actually learn something! I still believe my position was the correct one for that instance but there is room for everyone on this board when we show respect to each other. And my nose is no longer out of joint!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Battis, thank you for the clarification, I guess I misunderstood your point.
I recant the blanket answer of yes. I shall re-answer that with probably, depending on what the disturbance or annoyance is.

[runfiverun]

it's a noise ordinance.
covered by the same law loud mufflers are.
been there had it tested and paid the ticket afterwards on both accounts.

[MaryB]

A follow up comment to this, most of us moderators stay out of the pit unless there is something major going on politically or some other event that can cause issues(like the banning of the Confederate flag). So we only act in there on complaints and let that forum run itself as much as we possibly can.

[Blackwater]

Mary's right, generally. Personally, I mostly like the pit, simply because we as a people in the US today, have become so fragmented and willful, that it's edifying to know what others are thinking, and maybe a little of why they're thinking as they do. A nation always reflects the thinking of its populace, its real values and behavior. And also its willfulness. We're human, in other words, but that word "human" covers a VERY broad spectrum of behavior, from the most touching and noble, to the most pitiful and lame. And if there's anyone here who's never been at both ends of that spectrum, I'd really like to meet them. So ... it looks like some tolerance, one for the other, is clearly called for. And who knows? If we exercise that tolerance, along with some attempt to really understand the divisions present between any of us, we just MIGHT learn something worth knowing.

The biggest complaints and points of contention in the pit seem to come more from folks' repeating the same things over and over, and never listening or even inquiring "Why?" to those who think differently. This always leads to whizzing contests, and those always go downhill very rapidly. But what are we mods to do with these? If we enter early and cut them off, we get complaints. If we don't ... guess what? We get complaints!

Have you ever been between a rock and a very hard place? If so, you understand modding a lot better than maybe you thought you do. But again, I say to you, thanks for all the wisdom and decency you show, and for all the character you display. It truly matters, and makes this place so much of what it is, and has become. As we've grown bigger here, more members means more friction, inevitably, but you guys do a great job, in human terms at least, of keeping it as "clean" as it is. Even in the most heated discussions, you still show a lot of character, usually. That ain't no small thing, folks! No small thing indeed! And I thought we mods ought to let you know how very much we appreciate it from you. Like I said before, it's you who make this site the valuable, and often fun, resource that it has become .... even with the occasional heated disagreements.

I don't recall anywhere where I've seen more heated disagreements be handled any better than they usually are in the pit, too. Even there, much character and wisdom and willingness to be understanding is frequently shown. Maybe we're not as willful as our cynicism has led us to think??? :-D:drinks: Praise for all who so willingly participate, and especially those who keep their heads when it gets kind'a hard to do so! It matters.

[No_1]

Good question.

I received an infraction from an administrator when I was a moderator. I had issues with a member who was a former mod retired due mod/member conduct issues. The action was swift and I was told that if it ever happened again I would be a regular member once again post haste. I learned fast and promised it would not happen again. Once I became the person in charge the first thing I did was put guidelines in place to help prevent abuse of power. It didn't take long for some mods to resign or become "retired". Now I try to pick mods based on the quality of their post, their knowledge of casting, member interaction and average daily attitude. Not all picks are perfect and some are quite surprising.

Take care,
Robert



Can you tell me if a mod, ANY mod has had an infraction as a mod? If not, then that would certainly give the appearance of preference or special treatment. Not saying that's the case, I'm just curious. I've had a mod be EXTREMELY RUDE in his remarks to me in the past and I was just curious as to how those matters are discussed or treated. You don't even have to answer if you don't want to, I'll understand.
As far as the "Ignore tab", it's fruitless most of the time especially when the "ignored" is quoted in a thread.
Thanks