.41 magnum help

[41MagShooter]

I loaded up a bunch of .41 magnum loads of 210 grain Lee tumble lube bullets. I coated them with Lee Liquid Allox. I shot 100 of them loaded over 8.5 grains of unique through my Ruger Blackhawk. I wouldn't say the leading was excessive (it came out with a few scrubs from a chore boy wrapped around a nylon brush) but it's still annoying. The gun is still plenty accurate with the light leading. Should I worry about it or is this just par for the course? They measure .410 on my cheapie electronic caliper. Should I consider lapping a bit? I'm considering powder coating to see if that improves things. Meanwhile, I've got a bunch of 210 grain plated for plinking and 100 JHPs and some lil gun. I'd like to plink off some deer next year! [smilie=1:

[DougGuy]

Might not be sized big enough to seal in the bore. Your boolits could be sized smaller than the bore, or your cylinder throats could be undersized which will act like a sizing die and swage the boolits down when they are fired. Usually this is the first culprit to look for when leading occurs.

For 41 magnum most will size to .411" or .412" when I ream cylinder throats for these, I ream them to .4125" ~ .4128" for .412" boolits. Will your boolits slide into the cylinder throats from the front?

Another thing you could check is where the barrel meets the frame is often tightened so hard into the frame it will actually choke the inside diameter down a couple of thousandths, we call this "thread choke" which if that's the issue, you can find it by patching a cleaning jag tightly into a clean dry bore with paper towel, and push it down the bore. If it gets tighter or harder to push where the barrel meets the frame, this is the choke you are feeling with the jag. If it doesn't get harder to push and it drops on out, then I would look to your boolit fitment and/or cylinder throat diameters for a solution.

[41MagShooter]

Seems you're right Doug. Even the jacketed bullets I bought will not drop down through the throats. What can I do about this?

[DougGuy]

The first step would be opening up cylinder throats to an acceptable diameter, usually .0005" to .001" over boolit diameter so that your boolits are deliivered to the bore as sized and assembled, not swaged down by firing through tight throats. PM sent sir...

[leadman]

I shoot a Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter in 41 mag. You might try dropping your load down a grain or so. Also try to get your boolits up to .411".
Make sure there is no leading in the chamber throats then push a boolit thru them and measure them. Measure the barrel also and best case is throats .411", barrel .410".
A gas check can be installed in the case upside down and pushed into the case when the boolit is seated. This works for stopping most leading. Make sure it fits tight in the case.

[runfiverun]

I happen to have both guns mentioned above.
the black hawk will lead a little bit when the boolits are hard and undersized.
411 fixed that issue for me, but that extra.001 lead to them being hard to chamber in the hunter model. [but upped the accuracy]
the 8.5grs of unique is also my main load.

Doug's PM should be able to help you walk through the numbers, and he can fix the cylinder part if that is necessary.

[Scharfschuetze]

While it sounds like you've found the issue with large throats in your chambers, but you might also consider the following:

I didn't see what your allow was in your post. Too hard an alloy can sometimes cause leading while a softer allow doesn't. While counter intuitive, softer alloys often shoot better with mid power loads like the one you are loading (8.5 of Unique).

Some members here will double coat with the LLA to prevent the leading that they get with a single coat. Might try that before sending your revolver off.

While my experience with my old service S&W Model 58 is of no value to you I'll post it anyway. I use the RCBS 210 grain SWC sized to 410." I cast them from older COWW and don't bother with any water quenching. I lube with ALOX and seat them over 8.0 grains of Unique to duplicate the old issue ".41 Police Load" that my department issued for the .41. It really shoots well and there is not a hint of leading.

By the way, a 210 grain SWC over 8 grains of Unique will pole ax injured livestock like the Hammer of Thor if you hit 'em right.

I hope you can sort your leading out without too much frustration.

[41MagShooter]

Scharf I have to laugh at your description of the effect on livestock. I have no doubt you're correct. My uncle owned a butcher shop when I was a kid, and the .22 rifle he had for the shop probably killed more cows than most hunters shoot deer in 100 lifetimes. Its chamber was worn so bad the shells would bulge. I'm not sure where we got this idea that you need a .500 s&w mag to kill deer and nothing else will do.

The alloy I have was sold to me as WW. Going by thumb test on the bullets versus the ones on my car, I'd say they weren't lying. I water dropped them which might have been a mistake. I used one light coat of LLA. I was shooting at a box at 25 yards and found round cutouts in the snow from the bullets exactly the size of the meplat on the bullet. I guess wad cutter is an apt term. I know they're not tumbling. I could put them all in a small (probably 2/3 the size of a sheet of paper) box regularly at 25 yards. That was offhand and it was windy so I probably can't blame the gun for group size. I shot 100 rounds and used a brush and a little chore boy and had the barrel 100% clean in no time flat. That was after 100 rounds. I guess that's the question I'm asking, is the little leading worth bothering with or should I shoot it as is? I also wonder if powder coat would be tough enough to make the problem go away all together?

[41MagShooter]

I happen to have both guns mentioned above.
the black hawk will lead a little bit when the boolits are hard and undersized.
411 fixed that issue for me, but that extra.001 lead to them being hard to chamber in the hunter model. [but upped the accuracy]
the 8.5grs of unique is also my main load.

Doug's PM should be able to help you walk through the numbers, and he can fix the cylinder part if that is necessary.

Would you mind putting a caliper in your cylinder throats and see what you wind up with?

[Scharfschuetze]

I also wonder if powder coat would be tough enough to make the problem go away all together?

41MagShooter,

I've only recently been playing with powder coating in the 9mm and the 357 Magnum. I can't say if it really works, as the PCd bullets that I'm using didn't lead as normally sized and lubed. I'll bet though, that if you PC unsized bullets from your mould, that the diameter would be larger than the diameter of your bullet sizing die. That should fill up a larger than normal throat thinks I.

Speaking of slaughtering cattle, I've often heard of others with the same experience as your Dad with the .22 RF.

[bearcove]

My mom has a crackshot that was the family gun to put down whatever was gonna be butchered. Since the 30's I believe.

But on topic, Try powder coating, I run mine through a.411 sizer. Same boolet same gun. Real solution is fixing the cylinder throats, DougGuy is the solution if you don't do it yourself.

[41MagShooter]

My mom has a crackshot that was the family gun to put down whatever was gonna be butchered. Since the 30's I believe.

But on topic, Try powder coating, I run mine through a.411 sizer. Same boolet same gun. Real solution is fixing the cylinder throats, DougGuy is the solution if you don't do it yourself.

Have you had your cylinders worked by Doug? If not what size are yours? Mine measured .410 on the nose. Can you drop a bullet through your throats? Doug's prices do seem reasonable enough. I just want to make sure that's the only problem before I go getting it done. Is there any way to get just one lead ball to slug the bore? I don't want a whole pack of the things.

[runfiverun]

I could put one in there but I know the shaky rattley black hawk would scare me if I knew it's measurements.
try not water dropping, and adding a second coat of the alox.

I was shooting lead into my barrel with some lazer cast bullets then cleaning it out with the lyman 210gr gas check boolit without the gas check on top of 4 grs of titegroup.


the 41 is also my favorite cow shooting revolver.

[41MagShooter]

I could put one in there but I know the shaky rattley black hawk would scare me if I knew it's measurements.
try not water dropping, and adding a second coat of the alox.

I was shooting lead into my barrel with some lazer cast bullets then cleaning it out with the lyman 210gr gas check boolit without the gas check on top of 4 grs of titegroup.


the 41 is also my favorite cow shooting revolver.

I agree with you on the shaky rattley bit. I have a colt thats 60+ years old that is bank vault tight. My ruger isn't even 15 years old and has more slop. Initially that worried me so I went and picked up a few new ones at a gun shop and checked if the tolerances were any better. They weren't.

[DougGuy]

Rugers are made loose so they don't shoot loose. They will maintain the same amount of tolerance between parts for decades of steady shooting. You can't wear one out in one lifetime.

As far as lead balls I go to walmart and get the egg sinkers in packages of 5 or 6 in the fishing section, they are soft enough lead to use for slugging. If the one you need is just a tad small, put it on the anvil section of a common bench vise and smack it with a hammer it will fatten up quickly. If they are too big and seems like too much effort to get one started, lay them on a piece of steel and roll another piece of steel back and forth on top of them, they will stretch out and become smaller fairly quickly.

One of my FAVORITE tools is a Mitutoyo 193-211 0-1" .0001 Mechanical Digital Micrometer that I got from ebay for about $40 or $45 bucks, and another $12 bucks spent on a stand that holds it so you have hands free to handle the object being measured and the thimble. For the cost, these are indispensable as they remove all guesswork induced by calipers that only get close and can sometimes cause more headaches than they are worth.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/Mitutoyo%20193-211%20Mechanical%20Digital%20Micrometer_zpsyd4lopu q.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/Mitutoyo%20193-211%20Mechanical%20Digital%20Micrometer_zpsyd4lopu q.jpg.html)

[41MagShooter]

Got a couple of 50 cal round balls from a guy at work. I should be able to roll them between a file and the anvil on my vise to get them skinnier then slug it this weekend. They have a mic at work that I should be able to borrow to get my slug measured.

[Good Cheer]

A small diameter rod with tape wrapped around it and the tape securing lapping cloth (wrapping around up to the point that it barely fits in the chamber throat) and powered by a drill is all the tooling that a DIY home guy needs to adjust the .41.
But you have to change abrasive frequently and check the diameters continually using as precise of a method as you can get.
If all you have is the gas check on the base of a bullet sized .411, it'll do if you are careful and do your part.

And did I say you have to be careful and check often?

[41MagShooter]

Dougguy thanks for the suggestion. Rolling the ball flat with a file against the anvil of my vice was just the ticket. I then pounded it into the rear of one of the cylinder chamber. This sized a starter slug down to .436 if memory serves. With a little oil this should be easy to pound through the barrel. I can do that this weekend. Then next week I go on a business trip. The following Monday I should be able to snag the mic at work for a few minutes to get a measurement. As far as doing it myself, I don't have the time or the desire. I'll send it off to Doug and let him have at it. Money well spent. My guess is I'll need to lap my mold a bit too. Fingers crossed, all this will make the gun a cast boolit shooter.

[Lloyd Smale]

I consider a gun a leader if it leads to the point accuracy suffers in a shooting session so that would be between a 100-200 rounds. If it leads to the point accuracy suffers I don't usually even fool with it. It gets a ride to the gunshop and something new comes home. Some get a bit anal about it and worry that theres a gray wash in there barrel. Most any gun will do that with lead bullets if you shoot it enough. that I don't even bother cleaning out.

[44man]

After Doug does the magic, my suggestion is to shed the mule snot and use real lube. It might be OK for mouse loads.
One of my big revolvers has not had the bore touched in near 5 years now. I keep the cylinder clean for new STP to lube the pin and ends. My others have been going 3 years.

[MSD MIke]

I have also found that my guns are less prone to leading with a slower powder. If you can find it try some 2400, I think it give the bullet a more gentle start into the rifling.

Mike

[41MagShooter]

I've got some H110 on the way. The problem with buying a new gun is two-fold. One since I started my account, I moved to a much less gun friendly state. Popping down to the store (or to the Walmart parking lot more often to buy something off armslist) isn't an option any more. Getting a handgun purchase permit approved can take months. Second, I got this gun for really cheap off a guy that needed money. I think I paid $250 for it. It came with a box of shells. I did have a question hopefully one of you guys won't mind answering even though it involves sort of j-word bullets. This weekend I loaded 100 rounds with Berry's plated bullets over 9 grains of unique. Berrys says to load light to midrange jacketed data or lead data that keeps the bullets under 1250 fps. I would think with the data published by Alliant (max of 9.7) this should be safe and in my 4-5/8" barrel should keep me under 1250. I pulled one bullet, and it was essentially unmarred. I could push them as hard as I wanted on the bench and not move the bullet. OAL is 1/100th over spec. Thoughts? My engineer mind tells me they build LARGE safety factor into these loads and I should be just fine. I compared my Berrys to some Speer jhps I had and loaded to them at the same depth from the base as the cannelure would be on the speers.

[41MagShooter]

I did wind up buying H110 instead of lil gun. It wound up being a little cheaper.

[41MagShooter]

I consider a gun a leader if it leads to the point accuracy suffers in a shooting session so that would be between a 100-200 rounds. If it leads to the point accuracy suffers I don't usually even fool with it. It gets a ride to the gunshop and something new comes home. Some get a bit anal about it and worry that theres a gray wash in there barrel. Most any gun will do that with lead bullets if you shoot it enough. that I don't even bother cleaning out.

It wasn't to that point, but for what Doug is charging it seems worth it. I think my cylinder throats are too tight.

[runfiverun]

the load is safe.
the berrys might not like it though.
they are just plated lead, and the copper is cut pretty easily if you try pushing them too hard.
you can often see little splatters on the target from the cut copper flying off.

having said that I have pushed some plated rifle bullets pretty quick in my 308 [36grs of 4895]

[41MagShooter]

the load is safe.
the berrys might not like it though.
they are just plated lead, and the copper is cut pretty easily if you try pushing them too hard.
you can often see little splatters on the target from the cut copper flying off.

having said that I have pushed some plated rifle bullets pretty quick in my 308 [36grs of 4895]

Thanks for the response. I guess like you say in your signature, all an educated guess until you touch 'er off. Clearly, I can deal with a few messy rounds. I've shot about 500 cast so far. Cleaning isn't really that much worse with a little lead in the bore. If they're a little hot, I'll load them lighter the next time. Once I shoot them, I'll report back.

[41MagShooter]

I shot 100 Berrys loaded over 9 grains of unique. The load seemed safe and shot very well. I also added some more LLA to the bullets I cast previously and loaded another hundred. This time over 7.5 grains of unique. They seemed to do better. As an aside, I'm now thoroughly convinced that we worry too much about our bullets being hard as rocks. I shot some of the rounds today into a piece of frozen pine log 8 inches or so deep. The bullet stopped as it exited and laid on the ground. It is nearly unblemished except for the rifling marks. The .38s I loaded over 4.2 grains of unique that weren't water dropped expanded slightly. I shot them through a piece of 2x6.

[Doggonekid]

My experience with Berrys is they don't like powerhouse loads. I PC my cast and when I'm board I also lube them through a RCBS lubamatic. I have very little leading in my barrel. I use a 210 grain boolit and size my them to .410. I use 8.7 grains of Unique. This load is accurate for my gun, easy to control and fun to shoot.