Pb wire extrusion

[Pilgrim]

I'm seriously thinking about getting back into swaging as I have a rifle I'm shooting that has a bore too rough for CBs (so far) and for which jacketed are spendy (least spendy bullets ~ $ 0.50 ea). Since cost reduction is the prime reason for this addition, I'm also interested in extruding lead wire rather than casting same. The extruded wire is more uniform than cast cores, so... I've seen where Dave Corbin has a program that will help you design your own extrusion setup re: presures, etc. but I think you have to buy access to it. Does anyone have a handle on what I can extrude with a 2" hydraullc cylinder? Alloy is not a real problem as I have around 400 pounds (maybe more) of pure lead. I would like to be able to alloy that with WW to extend the supply, if possible. TIA Pilgrim

PS - If anybody has a swaging press they would like to sell, contact me please. After I get the extrusion setup done, I will advertise on the Classified forum (here and elsewhere) for a swaging press. My fall back is to buy a new Sea Girt press from RCE Corbin.

[badgeredd]

pilgrim,
I recently talked to Dave @ c-h and asked him if I could swage any alloy into jackets. He said it may be possible with very minor amounts of added metals to the pure pb but he suggested I not try because alloys tend to plug the bleed hole in the swaging die. Hope this is of some use to you.
Edd

[Pilgrim]

Thanks for the input. More to think about! Duane

[legend]

pilgrum,
i believe i had my best luck with just a slight amount being bled off,say 1/8-1/4 inch.this was in 358 dia bullits.
hope thats what you were asking.

[Buckshot]

..............So how much pressure does, or can your 2" cylinder exert? What is it's stroke? Is it lying in the corner of the shop or attached to some kind of framework?

..................Buckshot

[Pilgrim]

Rick - It's currently lying in the back of my P/U. The cylinder can handle 3000 psi for sure (it's an old John Deere cylinder), so area x pressure indicates roughly 10,000 pounds total force. It has about a 12" stroke (I haven't measured it yet), with a 1" shaft. I have nothing invested in this cylinder, so "buying" another one of a larger diameter is no problem. The cylinder has been lying at a friends ranch for quite a while so I have to disassemble it, clean it, and make sure the internals are OK, or repair it. Assuing a 2" cylinder would provide enough force for a small extrusion setup (enough for a home oriented operation), then I could go ahead and design the framework to hold the whole shebang. If the 2" cylinder won't get it done, I'll start looking for a 4"" or some such. Once knowing more about the slug size, acceptable alloy(s), lubrication of the slug, preheating the slug, etc, then I could go ahead and design a frame to hold the cylinder and extrusion dies. Anyway, I've plenty of time to put the whole thing together before I have any bullets to make. I suspect that the force available with this cylinder will hold me to nearly pure lead. But, hopefully I can alloy pure lead with some WW and still keep it within the operating limits of the "press". If it gets too involved (expensive) I'll just hold off on the whole project until I can scrounge up enough of the equipment to make the cost acceptable. FWIW....Duane

[BrentD]

pilgrim,
I recently talked to Dave @ c-h and asked him if I could swage any alloy into jackets. He said it may be possible with very minor amounts of added metals to the pure pb but he suggested I not try because alloys tend to plug the bleed hole in the swaging die.

Huh? I swage 575 gr cores of 16:1 alloy down to 550 or even 530 gr slugs. No bleedhole ever plugs. Plugs with what? I'm using Corbin and RCE gear.

Brent

[badgeredd]

Huh? I swage 575 gr cores of 16:1 alloy down to 550 or even 530 gr slugs. No bleedhole ever plugs. Plugs with what? I'm using Corbin and RCE gear.

Brent

Brent,
I have C-H reloading press dies, therefore the reason I called them to inquire as to whether I could at least alloy some WW in the mix. Likely the limits (at least I think so) on the alloys is mainly due to the fact that these dies are used in a mechanical press.
Actually after reading some additional posts by Pilgrim, I think maybe I should have not said anything. Seems he is working on a hydraulic swaging machine of his own design and frankly I would think that modest addition to the alloy WOULD work, but I am far from an expert so it is only my opinion.
By the way are you swaging your slugs into a jacket?

[floodgate]

Dave Corbin says his extruder and forming dies will handle a few percent of antimony or tin, but not the "hard" alloys.

Fg

[Pilgrim]

Floodgate - That's what I remember re: Corbins web site. He never did say what his equipment would handle beyond "a few percent" IIRC. The ability to extrude harder alloys would also be dependent upon the starting billet temperature as well as the diameter of the wire to be formed. Since I am thinking primarily about 9.3mm (.366"), wire of about .330 or so would be about right I would think. I was planning on keeping the billets in an oven at 425 F or thereabouts as a pre-heat prior to loading it into the extruder. If the extruder was insulated fairly well, I would expect it to hold the temperature OK. WW alloy at that temperature should extrude fairly easy. But...what do I know? Duane

[Buckshot]

..............WW type alloy is pretty tough for a jacketed bullet core isn't it? I'm no engineer but I'd think your cylinder should handle WW equivilent alloy so long as it wasn't being asked to go through too small a hole.

http://www.fototime.com/820D61686DA0E42/standard.jpg

Not an extruder die. I made this die set to turn cast lead Minie's into a kind of SWC looking thing. At first it was to be hammer operated. Then I built a bench press frame and put a 6 ton bottle jack in it for power. I don't know how that relates to PSI, but just assume the ram is delivering 6 tons of 'lift', regardless if it's actually lifting or pushing down.

The above dieset was made as best as I could for fit and finish with the lathe I had at the time, which sure wasn't much I assure you. The base cavity forming plunger (headed tool on the right) actually would float down very slowly if you placed your thumb over the bottom hole in the die. The problem with the 6 ton jack was that you could not definatly feel the slug come up to almost solid, or fully formed. It would stiffen a bit but you could still work the handle.

What would happen was you'd begin to extrude lead down past the nose forming plug, and up past the base cavity punch. When that happened you were a screwed pooch, as no way were you going to get either one to come out. Had to heat the body to melt the lead and THEN you could get the ends out. This extruded lead was in really thin sections.

Even though this was (to my knowledge) pure lead, the fact that it so easily flowed up alongside the 2 punches in pieces almost thin enough to read the paper through, suggests you shouldn't have too much of an issue with your setup. WW alloy going through a more sizeable hole seems like it would be a lot easier? Maybe :-)?

To finish my story, I switched to a 2 ton jack for this bumping/swaging/sizing deal. It would come up to the point where all of a sudden I could barely pull the handle down. I knew at this point the job was done. Ejecting the slug you might have a tiny bit of flash around the edge, but that was it.

BTW, and old used hydraulic cylinder might make a good extruder die.

................Buckshot

[BrentD]

16:1 is 5.89% and I swage that with Dave Corbin and Richard Corbin mechanical presses. The bullets are about as hard and black powder rifle bullets get.

No, I do not put them in jackets - well, excuse me - I do put them in jackets ala Paul Matthews, but the jackets are of paper, not copper.

Brent