Water Dropping After PC'ing Results

[RedRiver]

UPDATES AT THE BOTTOM



Cast up a few boolits today.

Alloy was 50/50 Clip on/Pure with 3% tin added for fillout. These were water dropped after casting then powder coated at 400 degrees then put into the bucket of water again.

My alloy gets about 10-12 air dropping before powder coating. After powder coating I checked it on my Lee tester and it gave 14 bhn. Who knows what it will rise up to within a couple weeks.

I will be doing more experiments using air cooling after casting then water dropped after powder coating. Second test will be water dropped after casting then air cooled after powder coating.


I will keep all you guys updated with my results over the next couple weeks.


-----------------------

Hardness was done with my Lee tester under a 4x mag and Starret dial calipers, these may not seem right all the time, but it's what I got.


Alloy #1 50% Clip on WW / 50% soft (xray, pipe, stick on) 3% tin added ----- 95.1%Pb/1.4%Sb/3.2%Sn/.05%As

Alloy #4 1:2 Alloy #1 / Clip on WW ----- 95.7%Pb/2.4%Sb/1.5%Sn/.4%As


..............................12/31 ---------1/9

Alloy #1
As cast, air cooled - 9 bhn-----13.0 bhn

WD after casting/ WD after PC'ing - 11.2 bhn-----12.1 bhn

WD after casting/ AC after PC'ing - 10.4 bhn-----12.1 bhn

Alloy #4
As cast, air cooled - 10 bhn-----13.4 bhn

As cast, water dropped - 11.4 bhn-----24 bhn

WD after casting/ WD after PC'ing - 11.0 bhn-----12.5 bhn

WD after casting/ AC after PC'ing - 11.0 bhn-----13.4 bhn

AC after casting/ AC after PC'ing - 10.7 bhn-----13.4 bhn

AC after casting/ WD after PC'ing - 12.5 bhn-----13 bhn

[RedRiver]

They are 9mm and 40 cal in the picture.

[Bzcraig]

Please do keep us in the loop.

[RedRiver]

Got a pm from a guy saying the tin may cause age softening since there is more tin than antimony. I will dilute my alloy 1:2 with more wheel weight lead. 2.2 lbs of clip on added to 4.4 lbs of alloy

[RedRiver]

Or....I could alloy something else with what I have sitting around:

95.7% Pb
2.4% Sb
1.5% Sn
.4% As

This would be basically wheel weight with a touch more tin and a touch less antimony. I'm thinking it should be a good overall alloy for what I need. .45acp, .40 cal, .38 special, .357 mag and 9mm. With the higher pressure loads, I could just water drop them.

Doing way too much thinking today.

[OS OK]

Whatever you decide on try to get an accurate number for what you are dropping on the same day. Then if you can manage test again after 48 hours.
Of course many readings over extended periods would be helpful but we don't always have the time and inclination to do that, much less keep records, but it's interesting though.
I have COWW's in ingots that tested as ingots 11.2 to 12.4 on the smelting day (different batches), then 2 to 3 months later I tested just to see what they were and they have come up anywhere from 14.2 to 16.0 BHN...just sitting in ingot form under the casting table...whoada thunk?

[Taterhead]

This will be interesting. Thanks for bringing us along.

[Gohon]

tin may cause age softening since there is more tin than antimony

My understanding is the age softening takes place over a very long time...maybe counted in years. Nevertheless the alloy cannot soften below what the original BHN air cooled would have been.

A little off topic but I've discovered with PC bullets I don't need oversized casts. What I use to require for the 45 Colt was .454 to control leading and accuracy. Now I can shoot .452 powder coated with the same results in accuracy and no leading of the barrel. Anyone else noticed this?

[Lloyd Smale]

why water drop twice? why not just after coating in the oven?

[RedRiver]

Just a test. Going to get every possibility documented.

[OS OK]

183996
Here's a little tip I discovered accidentally using the Lee BHN tester...use a red Marks-A-Lot to color the spot you intend to indent. The red tends to 'subtle the shine' and makes it easy to see the edge of the crater under magnification.

[Phlier]

Great thread, Red River, looking forward to the updates.

[TXCOONDOG]

I found that dropping powder coated boolits (COWW+ 2% Tin ) out of the oven in ice water tested at BHN 20.9 24hrs later

[RedRiver]

Just tested some month old straight air cooled clip on weights. 14.9 bhn. Verified by 3 separate checks. Glad to see that.

Updates to original post to come tonight.

[Lloyd Smale]

seems a bit on the high side compared to what I usually get out of ww. I usually am closer to 12bhn and as high as 13.
Just tested some month old straight air cooled clip on weights. 14.9 bhn. Verified by 3 separate checks. Glad to see that.

Updates to original post to come tonight.

[RedRiver]

Updated

[DrewSeeg]

any updates?

[popper]

3% tin added totally un-needed, way too much. Cook for 1 hr without the high tin and try again, drop in ice water. Check out http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?324199-Adding-Copper-Sulphate #34, targets. Alloy I could scratch with the back of my fingernail XD40SW. Completely changed my attitude of cast for pistol.

[OS OK]

Just tested some month old straight air cooled clip on weights. 14.9 bhn. Verified by 3 separate checks. Glad to see that.

Updates to original post to come tonight.

UPPER LEFT . . . (C WW) clip-on WW and Pb [roofers flashing], ingots made 5-13-15, 62# lot, tested twice, once at 7.7 and the other @ 8.0 BHN..........tested again in 10-16, this time with that much age hardening they are @ 11.8 . "I wanted soft Pb for a .45 HP mold but with the age hardening they're not applicable now in low-pressure pistol or revolver... (good for a carbine? sure, this would be fine, it'll need at least 1,100 FPS velocity to perform as a HP."

UPPER RIGHT . . . clip-on WW and added Sn in Pewter form, ingots made around 5-25-15 and tested @ 14.0 BHN have increased hardness to 18.0 in 4-16. "Here I wanted to sweeten up some C WW-Pb with a little Sn so I could get some pretty and shinny pistol/magnum velocity cast to post a picture in the castboolits picture thread . . . after age hardening I now have a blend that is more appropriate for hi-vel/hi-pressure 2,000 FPS work if lube-sized and prolly 2,400+ FPS if they get PC'd."

186610
BOTTOM LEFT . . . (C MWW) clip-on Modified (pewter) WW and Pb tested twice @ 8.2 BHN on ingot day 5-25-15 then twice tested once more in 10-16 where I now have 15.4 BHN. "Again Im after HP material and end up with a hi-vel hi-pressure material, go figure? I must have missed the conversation about having Cu in the blend at an unspecified quality & quantity...pewter!"

BOTTOM RIGHT . . . (PB + L) roofers flashing mixed with Linotype in 2-16 on test day was 15.4 BHN then tested again in 10-16 they are up to 17.9 BHN. "Here again blending up some middle of the road general casting Pb good for a magnum P or R and end up with the lower end rifle quality Pb blend...."

"We could talk all day about percentages, formulae blends, testing methods and equipment...prolly get into a pretty good 'spitting contest' but...I can tell you this with a well qualified experimenters testament...in a few short words...​Unless you know 'exactly' the Pb, Sn, Sb, Cu and arsenic content of the ingredients and those 'foreign contents' that only an 'XRF' testing would provide...you might just end up with numbers all across the board when it comes to blending metals and time spans of hardening.
I have been very lucky and all my stash is good for something. Granted I can use a new set of steel stamps of the 1/4" variety and a more clear method to abbreviate the contents but at least I can go back to Pb blends I've done some time ago and identify my 'lots' and find something workable and useful for one or more of the platforms in the stable. I think with time and an eye for detail I will get even better at making what I want and have it still good for what I want after a year or so.
With the exception of HP metals, plain old C WW will will go a long way to suffice for bullet metal and since they will increase hardness with 'water dropping' along with age...they work pretty good for a variety of applications all by themselves."

[KenH]

OS, you're just too organized for me with those ingot stamped with info - I'm lucky to get a Sharpie pen to mark stuff with.

I do have a question about testing hardness after PC'ing. Have you tested the same alloy mix with exactly the same treatment with and without PC to see if PC'ing alters the hardness test? I use the pencil test to "guesstamate" hardness and it seems pretty good with bare lead. Smoke's clear PC is too hard for my pencils to break thru to test. I see you're using a penetrating test so the PC coat might not affect much.

Ken H>

[KenH]

............... A little off topic but I've discovered with PC bullets I don't need oversized casts. What I use to require for the 45 Colt was .454 to control leading and accuracy. Now I can shoot .452 powder coated with the same results in accuracy and no leading of the barrel. Anyone else noticed this?

Yes, I've seen that same thing - I've done no real controlled tests, but it seems like a PC'd bullet that's at groove diameter (.308"/.309" for 30 cal) seems to shoot as well as .310" does when it's PC'd. Hardness of alloy mix doesn't seem near as critical either.

Ken H>

[OS OK]

If I understand the question right...(Have I tested a known hardness of cast boolit after I PC'd it (air cooled), and did it come out the same?)

Yes...I made a batch of soft Pb for that photo of the .45 HP in post #11. Cast them on the same day I blended the Pb in my 20# pot. I think I was after a '7. something' BHN but in reality it was 8.4, close enough I thought.
I PC'd them on the same day of the cast and filed them off on the side to test the BHN...need a flat surface with the Lee tester...they tested the same after PC'ing and air cooling them.
NOW...there's a caveat to the story...In my haste I casted up a couple hundred while I was at the job of blending a pot of HP metal...only problem was, that after about a month or two...guess what?
Those 8.4's were up to 11.8 or so...
"Oh Spit! That ain't HP (low-vel material any more unless you speed it up to 1,100 FPS or more now! They could still be HP casts if used in a Ruger .45 Colt hand cannon or a carbine...neither of which I have, so they will likely get sweetened down again in the pot for another batch of 'hopefully softer Pb' intended again for HP metal.

Hope this long winded explanation answered the question.

PS...I don't test for BHN 'through the PC coating'...as far as I'm concerned that PC coating is a jacket and lube substitute.

[KenH]

Thanks for the response OS, and yes you answered the question. One thing I had missed before was you filing thru the PC for a flat spot allowing to test direct to lead so the PC coat would not affect the results.

I LOVE PC'd bullets much better than lubed bullets. It's easier for me, and less hassle.

Ken H>