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Overalls87
12-28-2016, 10:19 PM
183713
Is this too much crimp?

rhemcla
12-28-2016, 10:35 PM
That's about as heavy a crimp as you would ever need.
What caliber is it? You only need to crimp if you have a special need like a heavy charge of spherical powder or loading for a gun with tubular magazine.

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NC_JEFF
12-28-2016, 10:54 PM
It's plenty heavy, it looks as if you've bottlenecked the case a 16th or so. If I go any further than a simple rolling in on the bullet I back off the crimp.

Overalls87
12-28-2016, 10:57 PM
It's for 38 special. The load is 158 grain lswc. The charge is 3 grains of bullseye. I just recently purchased RCBS dies. So I was hoping I did this right. I'm used to loading with a loader.

Overalls87
12-28-2016, 10:58 PM
Will this crimp make pressures soar with this load???

Overalls87
12-28-2016, 11:08 PM
The bullet is a remington 158 grain lswc by the way.

runfiverun
12-29-2016, 12:16 AM
it won't jump the pressures up.
it might scrape at the boolit though.

I don't even crimp many of my target loads and some I just taper crimp [yes they make a 38 special taper crimp]
but a light-firm roll crimp hurts nothing.

rhemcla
12-29-2016, 01:00 AM
You can crimp any round you want, some people crimp everything and some others, like me, only crimp when needed.

Examples of crimp needed:
1- rounds for a tubular magazines so recoil doesn't push bullets in.
2- Rounds for a heavy recoiling revolver so recoil doesn' pull bullets out.
3- loads using certain spherical powders that need the extra pressure to burn more efficiently.

In your case, your load doesn't need crimping at all.
Richard

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RogerDat
12-29-2016, 01:21 AM
For 38 special my guideline is remove the case flare applied to allow the bullet to fit into the case without scraping. Plus just a tiny amount more so I have a barely noticeable turning in at the top. 45 colt same thing. 357 magnum also.

With a roll crimp if the case isn't the same length it won't crimp the same amount. Most don't bother to trim length of straight walled brass. For range pickup brass I do trim so they all are the same length, and then I keep them together so the stretch will be same across all of the brass. For new I try to keep brass together.

JonB_in_Glencoe
12-29-2016, 01:28 AM
I crimp my 38spl, well at least I say I crimp my 38 spl.
I 'am' using a crimp die, but really I am just removing the "flare" from the case mouth and (ever so slightly) rolling the case mouth into the crimp groove, But I'm not crimping the case into the boolit where lead alloy is being displaced.

Overalls87
12-29-2016, 02:03 AM
Thanks for all the help guys. But with this crimp that I'm doing will it increase pressures enough to damage the gun I'm shooting them out of? The gun is a smith and wesson model 67.

Overalls87
12-29-2016, 02:06 AM
Like I said. It's only 3 grains of bullseye. And a 158 grain lswc. Oh and a winchester small pistol primer. I don't want to blow this gun up. I like it very much. And by the way. Leading is not an issue at all. This gun shoots them very well.

Overalls87
12-29-2016, 02:10 AM
If you say I don't need to crimp at all. Can I back the seater die which is the crimp die back up. Set the lock ring and just seat the bullet??? It's rcbs set 18212.

Overalls87
12-29-2016, 02:12 AM
That's what's strange too. After I remove a case I can get lead and brass slivers off the case if I use a toothpick to scrape it.

JonB_in_Glencoe
12-29-2016, 02:13 AM
Thanks for all the help guys. But with this crimp that I'm doing will it increase pressures enough to damage the gun I'm shooting them out of? The gun is a smith and wesson model 67.
you will be fine with the 3gr load.


If you say I don't need to crimp at all. Can I back the seater die which is the crimp die back up. Set the lock ring and just seat the bullet??? It's rcbs set 18212.
depending on how much you flare the case?
You will need to de-flare the case enough for the completed round to chamber.

JonB_in_Glencoe
12-29-2016, 02:14 AM
That's what's strange too. After I remove a case I can get lead and brass slivers off the case if I use a toothpick to scrape it.
remove it from what?
from the crimp die?
or from the chamber after it's been fired?

runfiverun
12-29-2016, 02:24 AM
probably the case.
when seating and crimping at the same time a little sliver of lead and sometimes a shave of brass is common.
if your gonna crimp do it as a separate step.

but your seeing the reason why most of us don't crimp.

adding the crimp will not increase your pressures enough to even notice with the load you are using.

Overalls87
12-29-2016, 02:25 AM
From the die itself after I complete the loaded round Sir.

Overalls87
12-29-2016, 02:28 AM
Should I get a factory crimp die? And just use the 3rd rcbs die for seating the bullet?

tazman
12-29-2016, 07:04 AM
Should I get a factory crimp die? And just use the 3rd rcbs die for seating the bullet?

The procedure you just described is exactly what I do with mine.

44man
12-29-2016, 08:35 AM
I don't crimp that heavy with the .475 and .500 JRH. Those soft boolits just get ruined.
The boolit pushes the crimp open, not pressure behind the boolit.

6bg6ga
12-29-2016, 09:31 AM
You probably do not need a crimp at all. There is no need to over work the brass and shorten its life.

Half Dog
12-29-2016, 09:38 AM
I use a factory crimp die on mine. It helps to make each case the same.

Hickory
12-29-2016, 09:48 AM
You don't need much of a crimp, if any, on a light load.
Heavy crimp is most needed with slow powders and a heavy boolit.
The crimp holds the boolit in place long enough to give powder a more complete and uniform burn, that, in most cases will improve accuracy.

JimB..
12-29-2016, 10:04 AM
Is this too much crimp?

"Too much" is hard to define, let's say that you have far more crimp than your application requires.

Reducing the amount of crimp will lengthen the life of your brass. It may or may not affect the accuracy of the rounds in your pistol, but in my very limited experience less crimp it is more likely to improve accuracy in your application.

You would have to try really hard to crimp hard enough to hurt your gun, I would stop worrying about that.

I believe that the brass and lead shavings are being produced by your heavy crimp, but the lead could be produced by not flaring the brass enough when you seat the bullet. I will often seat the bullet and crimp the bullet in two steps. This sometimes makes for a better bullet in my opinion, but it also allows me to look easily to see if I'm shaving lead while seating; if I am then I increase the amount of flare.

Having said all that I suggest that you try seating and crimping as separate operations to see where the shavings are coming from and also when you crimp try backing your crimp die off a half turn and see what that looks like. With your load the critical issue is getting rid of the flare so the cartridge will chamber in the gun, any additional crimp is likely just wasted effort and wear on your brass.

Echo
12-29-2016, 11:13 AM
Should I get a factory crimp die? And just use the 3rd rcbs die for seating the bullet?
That's what I do, and I'll bet most on this forum do the same...
And that's the way my Dillon works, too - separate crimp die for all (pistol) calibers - I don't do rifle on the Dillon.

dverna
12-29-2016, 11:46 AM
I would not recommend the Lee Factory Crimp die for cast bullets. There is absolutely no need for it. But I have only reloaded about 100,000 .38 Spl. On the Star, the seating and crimp are done on one die; so it is not necessary to do it in separate operations; but it is a tad more difficult to set up. On the Dillon, I use a separate seating and crimping die.

The standard roll crimp is easy to set up and does the job. For the ultimate in accuracy (50 yard Bullseye), there is the rationale that a taper crimp (this is NOT a Lee FCD) has advantages, especially if one does not trim cases to uniform length.

Adjust your RCBS die to iron out the flare and give a wee bit of crimp and go have fun. BTW, an easy test is to take a round, place the bullet against the side of the bench and try to push the bullet into the case using arm strength. If it slides in, you need more crimp.

Don Verna

Overalls87
12-29-2016, 01:18 PM
Thank you for all the help guys. As always this bunch is very knowledgeable and I can depend on all of you for good advice.

Kosh75287
12-29-2016, 01:29 PM
I've used almost that much crimp, when trying to get Unique to burn cleanly. With 3.0/Bull'sEye/158, you'll get very clean burning, crimp or no crimp, so I'D say you have much more crimp than you really need. Try backing off the crimp by 1/4 turn (up/out) of your crimping die and see how the ammo performs. It may shoot to a slightly different point of impact, but perhaps not.

The other thing that concerns me is that it looks like the case mouth is gripping the projectile somewhat below the top of the crimping groove. Ideally, you'd like the case mouth just under the top of the crimping groove. Try turning the seating plug down/in, by 1/2 turn, after you have adjusted the crimp out by 1/4 turn. Once the bullet is seated so that the case mouth contacts the top of the crimping groove, you are pretty much home and will not need to apply so much crimp.

Another possibility is to buy a separate taper crimp die for .38/.357, and crimp the rounds after seating, in a separate step. It's slightly more work, but I've noticed tighter groups when I have expended the extra effort. I recommend Redding, for the taper-crimp die.

Moonie
12-29-2016, 01:51 PM
You can crimp any round you want, some people crimp everything and some others, like me, only crimp when needed.

Examples of crimp needed:
1- rounds for a tubular magazines so recoil doesn't push bullets in.
2- Rounds for a heavy recoiling revolver so recoil doesn' pull bullets out.
3- loads using certain spherical powders that need the extra pressure to burn more efficiently.

In your case, your load doesn't need crimping at all.
Richard

You also need a good crimp to prevent boolit setback in some semi-auto's. Setback can and will cause pressures to spike dangerously

W.R.Buchanan
12-29-2016, 01:52 PM
Bunch of different opinions here so I'll add my .02. I crimp everything. All factory ammo is crimped.

You can vary the amount of Crimp to suit the individual round, more for heavier loads, and less for light loads.

It is easiest to Seat and Crimp in two separate operations because it is easier to adjust the two dies independently, you set the seating die first and then the crimping die after. Obviously a single die will do it, you just have to play with it a bit more to get it exactly right.

The amount you roll crimp is up to you. I do the same Roll Crimp level for light or heavy rounds on my .44's and .45-70's. I Taper Crimp to a specific dimension for Auto Pistol rounds, and I use a Lee Collet Style Factory Crimp Die to crimp Jacketed Bullets that have a cannelure, like .223's .308's .30-06 etc.

Any Round that needs to feed thru a magazine needs to be crimped simply because the only thing holding it in place is neck tension and in an auto pistol a bullet that is jammed back into the case can cause big problems. Same goes for rifles. If it is a Single Shot gun then you can easily get away with no crimp. But for all others it is just a good practice to do it.

Like I said in the beginning of my .02,,,, All Factory Loaded Ammo is Crimped . You can bet that if an ammo company could eliminate that one operation over Millions of Rounds it would save them a bunch of money,,,, but they don't seem to want to do that.

Maybe it does matter.

Randy

JWT
12-29-2016, 01:57 PM
I use the RCBS dies to seat and roll crimp in one step for my 38. For the 38 a slight roll crimp is all you need. Shoot what you have and then readjust your die.

JimB..
12-29-2016, 02:25 PM
Forgot to mention, I like the RCBS dies, and I haven't found a good use for the Lee FCD.

paul h
12-29-2016, 02:43 PM
For soft bullet low pressure loads you should use the minimum crimp that will allow your ammo to chamber in your gun. Too much crimp can size a soft bullet down as it leaves the case and that will have a negative effect on accuracy. Too much crimp will also cause case mouths to crack prematurely, so bell just enough to seat bullets w/o scraping and crimp just enough to get rounds to chamber for max brass life.

Now if you're loading magnum handgun rounds using H-110/W-296 you want a fairly heavy crimp as the extra bullet pull from a heavy crimp helps that slow powder get burning and build pressure, and it also keeps recoil from pulling bullets and tying up the cylinder.

fredj338
12-29-2016, 02:43 PM
Should I get a factory crimp die? And just use the 3rd rcbs die for seating the bullet?
Yes too much crimp. If you want to seat & crimp in separate steps, just buy another seating die & remove the stem. I am not a fan of the LFCD for pistol.

Overalls87
12-29-2016, 03:11 PM
Kosh. It is crimped in the middle of the second cannalure. I used a factory remington to judge where to crimp mine at. The factory remington round is crimped in the middle of the cannalure too. Am I wrong for doing this? Will there be negative side affects?

44man
12-29-2016, 05:28 PM
I've used almost that much crimp, when trying to get Unique to burn cleanly. With 3.0/Bull'sEye/158, you'll get very clean burning, crimp or no crimp, so I'D say you have much more crimp than you really need. Try backing off the crimp by 1/4 turn (up/out) of your crimping die and see how the ammo performs. It may shoot to a slightly different point of impact, but perhaps not.

The other thing that concerns me is that it looks like the case mouth is gripping the projectile somewhat below the top of the crimping groove. Ideally, you'd like the case mouth just under the top of the crimping groove. Try turning the seating plug down/in, by 1/2 turn, after you have adjusted the crimp out by 1/4 turn. Once the bullet is seated so that the case mouth contacts the top of the crimping groove, you are pretty much home and will not need to apply so much crimp.

Another possibility is to buy a separate taper crimp die for .38/.357, and crimp the rounds after seating, in a separate step. It's slightly more work, but I've noticed tighter groups when I have expended the extra effort. I recommend Redding, for the taper-crimp die.
Exactly, good advice.

JWT
12-29-2016, 06:53 PM
Forgot to mention, I like the RCBS dies, and I haven't found a good use for the Lee FCD.

I bought the FCD for heavy recoiling 444 in the tube magazine. I don't want setback.

Kosh75287
12-29-2016, 07:11 PM
Kosh. It is crimped in the middle of the second cannalure. I used a factory remington to judge where to crimp mine at. The factory remington round is crimped in the middle of the cannalure too. Am I wrong for doing this? Will there be negative side affects? If you can get the crimp closer up against the crimp groove, it's probably best to do so. If you can't make it happen, it's probably not critical. I doubt that any noticeable adverse side effects will show themselves, given the modest ballistics of the load you are shooting. IF you can make the changes I mentioned, I think it would be prudent to do so. If not, then probably the only danger you are in is getting a lot of split case mouths a bit sooner in the life of the cases than might occur otherwise. I don't see anything about the round you pictured that makes me want to yell "STOP!".

As you do more reloading, and work up a particular load from "mild" to "hot", adverse effects (if any) MAY start to show themselves, at which point you can decide what to do about them. Usually, the fix is an easy one. The reason that every reloading manual in the world fire-brands it into the neophyte reloader's brain to start below maximum and work up gradually is because problems that are tolerable or even absent at lower pressure loads may begin to show themselves in a troublesome way, as the charge weight increases. If you go straight to max charges and something is not right, it could be troublesome or even hazardous from the outset, leaving you no opportunity to iron out the problem early on.

Soundguy
12-29-2016, 07:11 PM
Should I get a factory crimp die? And just use the 3rd rcbs die for seating the bullet?

You are over thinking this 10,000%

Most rimmed cases get a light roll crimp, most rimless or rebated get a taper.

A little dab will do ya. Too much crimp leads to shortened case life due to case mouth cracks.

Rimmed cases like 38spl are among the easiest to load.

No problem with seat and crimp in one stage, just figure out what you are doing. Many that seat and crimp in separate stages never learned how to do it good in one stage.

You dont need a fcd.

Using the correct level and type of crimp makes for good, uniform, duplicatable ammo.

Overalls87
12-29-2016, 10:22 PM
Thanks gentleman. I've learned quite much from this post. I'll back off the seater/crimp die a quarter turn or two. I'll also seat my bullet slightly deeper and crimp closer to the top of the cannalure grove. Either way I'd be lost without all of you helpful people. Thank you again. Thank you much.

44man
12-30-2016, 04:14 PM
You are over thinking this 10,000%

Most rimmed cases get a light roll crimp, most rimless or rebated get a taper.

A little dab will do ya. Too much crimp leads to shortened case life due to case mouth cracks.

Rimmed cases like 38spl are among the easiest to load.

No problem with seat and crimp in one stage, just figure out what you are doing. Many that seat and crimp in separate stages never learned how to do it good in one stage.

You dont need a fcd.

Using the correct level and type of crimp makes for good, uniform, duplicatable ammo.
Very good, I have done seat and crimp all my life. Just the adjustment is all. Another die to crimp might kill a deer if I can throw it hard enough.