Long range drop

[44man]

I shot the RD .44 boolit at 200 yd's yesterday and figure a drop of around 32 to 34" from a 50 yd setting. I shot my .475, 420 gr WFN also and figure the drop at about 18" and it took 2 shots to hit a tin can at 200. I had to guess at the drop. I also knocked the pig down with one shot.
I took my 330 gr WLNGC down today and tried 5 shots. I heard steel with the second shot. It hit the very bottom of my target stand so the first went under it. I aimed higher for the last 3 and got them on paper. I was a little left at that range and the drop was 35".
The big .475 has only half the drop of the .44.
Anyway, how is a 1-5/16" group at 200 yd's from my old SBH?
Keep telling me the .475 WFN is unstable! :mrgreen:

[cohutt]

Nice shootin


Gotta scope one of my 44s one day

[BABore]

It's doubtful that your 475 has half the drop of your 44. More likely it's the recoil and muzzle climb. The bbl of your 475 is elevated more when the boolit exits.

Last year I pulled the scope from my 9.5" 480 SRH to work with OS for a while. I was using a 400 gr GC boolit at 1,250 fps. Sighted in at 50 yards I had to use the same hold for 100 yards. At 200 yards I had to aim 4 inches higher. That's 30-06 ballistics and it just ain't so. If you could lock in a gun so the recoil and bbl climb were eliminated, you would find that the external ballistics of the 44 and 480 are almost identical. The 475 would be just slightly better because of the 100-200 fps advantage over the 480.

[targetshootr]

Long range handgunning is fun. There's a ballistics calculator on Handloads that gives an idea of drop.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/


:Fire:

[Bass Ackward]

Recoil: a trajectory aid. Hmmmm.

1 and 5 /16ths 200 yard group from three shots. Hmmmm.


Personally, it seems that you shot at least 18 times. Let's see, you banged the pig twice, dented a can twice, and got on paper three times. Mathenmatically, that sounds like you plowed ground about 11 times. Can plant a corn field in those farrows! That's good shootin? :grin:

I was going to make a hat joke here, but decided I save that for a comeback in case you rip me. :grin:

[BOOM BOOM]

Hi,
You Make Me Fell Bad! Now I Am Depressed.
I Make Most Of The People I Shoot With Look Bad.
If I Can Get 70% Plus Hits On My Steel Plate At 200yds. I Feel Good.
44 Redhawk No Scope.

[44man]

I actually shot 3 shots at 200 with the .475 for two hits. I only shot 5 from the .44 with 2 shots low because I under estimated the drop. I did not adjust from my 50 yd settings.
The .475 has a red dot on it.
Babore, recoil does not enter into it at all because recoil is the same at 10 yd's or 500 yd's. Once sighted at 50 yd's considering recoil effect (My BFR does not have that much. Not a whole lot more then the .44) recoil will not make the shots hit higher at long range. The barrel is not jumping higher when shooting farther and the boolit left at the same barrel elevation.
I think it is because the heavy boolit does not run out of steam as fast as the .44 does.
My 45-70 BFR is the same with only a drop of 16" at 200 yd's and recoil is LESS then the .44.
Bass, please save the hat jokes! :mrgreen:

[Ricochet]

One thing to consider about the recoil-induced muzzle climb is that it not only angles the muzzle up for a higher angle of departure of the bullet at the moment of exit, but it's a dynamic process so the bullet is actually given an upward motion equal to the velocity of the rising muzzle at the moment of exit. That's a significant upward toss, and it's got to slow down to a stop before the bullet starts falling.

[44man]

Does it matter if it is a super light .357 or a heavy .500? NO, it is not going to sling the boolit up in the air. Once it leaves the bore it is going to have gravity work on it. All POI depends on is where the muzzle is when the boolit leaves. Machine rest, sandbags or offhand all have different POI's but once sighted, they stay the same for each type of shooting. Change the way the gun is held and you get vertical dispersion. That does not change as range changes.
Some of you say that if my gun recoils more it will hit higher at 200 yd's. But doesn't it also hit higher at 50 yd's? Seems to me the sights need to be adjusted for 50 yd's too.
Change the way it is held between distances and you don't know where it will hit.

[leftiye]

Well folks the velocity is known, the ballistic coefficient is known, the ballistic tables, and trajectory calculator programs are available. No need to guess, eh? Personally, my reaction is that the ballistic coefficient of the 44 magnum should compare, so all you have to know to know the truth is the velocity of the loads to know what shoots flattest.

[Ricochet]

Yes, the ballistic tables and calculators are widely available and well known. And all of us who've calculated trajectories and fired at targets know there are discrepancies between the predictions and the results. They arise from variables such as velocities and ballistic coefficients that don't match, and effects like the barrel movements from recoil and harmonic vibrations. Of course gravity starts acting on a bullet from the instant it leaves the muzzle. That's why that upward toss decays and the bullet starts back down. (Same with bullet rise due to muzzle elevation, of course.) The fact that the upward "toss" exists is also very simple high school physics. Quantifying it's not, though. It would require high speed cinematography to establish the exact muzzle rise from firing till bullet exit (which can't be accurately calculated due to the unknown variables of hand grip resistance and hand position), and calculating the tip velocity of the muzzle from displacement and time.

Ballistics tables are simplified cases reflecting the bullet's flight after it leaves the muzzle. They can't account for gun movements during firing.

[Larry Gibson]

Gotta agree with 44man; if it's zero'd at 50 yards then a change of range does not effect the rise of the barrel during recoil. Also agree with Bass; That's good shootin!

Larry Gibson

[Ricochet]

if it's zero'd at 50 yards then a change of range does not effect the rise of the barrel during recoil. Who said that it does? That's plumb silly.

[gon2shoot]

Yall are gitin way to techincal on this stuff, I just want to know if he's left or right handed :-D

[Larry Gibson]

Who said that it does? That's plumb silly.

BABore; "It's doubtful that your 475 has half the drop of your 44. More likely it's the recoil and muzzle climb. The bbl of your 475 is elevated more when the boolit exits."

You are correct, it is "plumb silly".

44man correctly replied with; "Babore, recoil does not enter into it at all because recoil is the same at 10 yd's or 500 yd's. Once sighted at 50 yd's considering recoil effect (My BFR does not have that much. Not a whole lot more then the .44) recoil will not make the shots hit higher at long range. The barrel is not jumping higher when shooting farther and the boolit left at the same barrel elevation.........Machine rest, sandbags or offhand all have different POI's but once sighted, they stay the same for each type of shooting. Change the way the gun is held and you get vertical dispersion. That does not change as range changes.
Some of you say that if my gun recoils more it will hit higher at 200 yd's. But doesn't it also hit higher at 50 yd's? Seems to me the sights need to be adjusted for 50 yd's too.
Change the way it is held between distances and you don't know where it will hit. "

Larry Gibson

[44man]

A boolit will not "sling" above the bore no matter how high it raises. It exits in line with the bore only.
You can watch the process when shooting an arrow while raising the bow fast before the release. The arrow is NOT thrown higher then the bow. The same thing happens with an arrow when swinging on a running animal. The arrow is NOT thrown ahead from the swing. 100% of the time the arrow goes behind the animal because the lead is not enough.
Even shot from a shotgun is not thrown ahead when swinging. It goes where the bore was in line when it left even when the swing is continued. You can't spread the pattern by swinging the gun.
Well, maybe you could if you swung at the shot velocity! :mrgreen: I can't swing at 1200 fps!
My revolvers don't rise at 1400 fps either.

[Bass Ackward]

A boolit will not "sling" above the bore no matter how high it raises. It exits in line with the bore only.
You can watch the process when shooting an arrow while raising the bow fast before the release. The arrow is NOT thrown higher then the bow. The same thing happens with an arrow when swinging on a running animal. The arrow is NOT thrown ahead from the swing. 100% of the time the arrow goes behind the animal because the lead is not enough.
Even shot from a shotgun is not thrown ahead when swinging. It goes where the bore was in line when it left even when the swing is continued. You can't spread the pattern by swinging the gun.
Well, maybe you could if you swung at the shot velocity! :mrgreen: I can't swing at 1200 fps!
My revolvers don't rise at 1400 fps either.


According to a movie coming out, you can actually curve a bullet around an object. And if Hollywood says it's so, danged it's going to be hard to fight it. :grin:

[45 2.1]

You can't spread the pattern by swinging the gun. Well, maybe you could if you swung at the shot velocity! :mrgreen: I can't swing at 1200 fps! My revolvers don't rise at 1400 fps either.

Hmmm... I tried this long ago from a bluff overlooking a big lake. Worked then as the pattern was a lot wider.

[SWIAFB]

Bass Ackward,It's true. I known I've shot alot of bullets that have curved , right out of a good group. The flinch did not counter out the wobble.

[44man]

I guess I can re-phrase the shotgun thing. If you have a long shot column, the first to exit goes where the barrel is pointed at that instant but the bottom of the column has not reached the muzzle yet but it will also go where the muzzle is pointed when it exits.
BUT IT WILL NOT JUMP AHEAD OF THE MUZZLE. You can't SLING the shot ahead. You can only delay the bottom of the columns exit by it's length. Now if you filled the whole barrel with shot you could get a nice spread because of the time it takes to leave.
Some posts suggest that if you shoot a LOOOONG boolit, it will bend as it comes out from barrel rise and the base will then go up over the nose! :-D Well, didn't the nose leave before the base? It HAS to flip because it was SLUNG! [smilie=w:

It must be magic so maybe if I shoot 500 meters with my 45-70 and keep increasing the charge to increase recoil I should reach the point where the rear sight no longer needs to be raised. Just ignore a flatter trajectory to picture it. :mrgreen:

[Larry Gibson]

44man

Not sure it would work with your 45-70 as it sure doesn't work with mine. I have to put on quite a bit of elevation for my looooong 500 gr bullets to hit at 500 meters! Maybe it is magic or witchcraft and I should sell the Lyman Mag-20 and get a cauldron.........

Larry Gibson

[Ricochet]

A boolit will not "sling" above the bore no matter how high it raises. It exits in line with the bore only.
Nope. You're in error. That's the same as saying that if you throw a ball straight out the side window of your moving car, it "exits in line with the window only." It still is moving at the same speed in the same direction the car was, in addition to the motion you gave it when you threw it. Have to work out the result as a vector.

[44man]

But does the ball move ahead of the car? The fact is that it rapidly loses the foreward motion and drops back very fast.
Does the boolit move higher then the barrel after it leaves the muzzle? That is the point I am making. Yes the recoil is raising the barrel but as soon as the boolit exits, that is as high as it will be. It will not pass the gun barrel or flatten the trajectory.
What you were saying is that with more recoil I would hit higher at 200 yd's then a gun with less recoil. But both guns are sighted at 50 yd's so recoil does not change the POI there or at 200. I have not added additional force to make the boolit climb above the sight in distance and have not changed the trajectory.
If you lock the gun in a vise and sight for 50, then get a drop at 200 of 20", then shoot with one hand it will hit higher at 200. But resight with one hand at 50, the drop is still 20" at 200. The fact is that if you DON'T resight at 50, the drop might appear to be less but you are also much higher at 50.

[Larry Gibson]

The point is exactly as 44man states; "But both guns are sighted at 50 yd's so recoil does not change the POI there or at 200".

Thus the rise of the revolver from recoil is already compensated for as both are zeroed at 50 yards. 44man was not firing from a moving car so there is no vector to factor in. It would appear just as 44man says; "The big .475 has only half the drop of the .44" and obviously is not unstable.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Larry, said easier then I could, thank you.
The POI in every handgun is totally dependent on the recoil. So how the gun is held or rested will effect the elevation. Anything you do to change barrel rise will give you vertical dispersion.
I shoot exactly the same at any range when testing loads but when hunting season gets close I will check sight settings both from Creedmore and from off hand.
My .44 is very touchy for a change from bags to off hand. However the bigger guns like my 45-70 and .475 seem to change POI less from bags to Creedmore to off hand. I was concerned that with the added recoil I would have to change settings a lot once I moved off the bags but it was unfounded. The difference is so small it can't be detected when shooting off hand.
The lack of sensitivity seems to also make it easier to get good groups from bags with the bigger guns and to hit smaller targets way out there.
Any change in a bag with the .44 will string shots up and down. But this is only from bags, from Creedmore I can alter my grip without changing POI.
The only other factor is the grips as to how forgiving a gun is. I can NOT get a Bisley grip to settle into consistant groups nor can I with a S&W frame. A model 29 for example, will move groups all over the backstop with a minute change in hold. But both shoot better off hand then even from Creedmore.
The hogleg is the least sensitive to hold changes.
Anyway, I might get off topic some.
What I have learned though is the WFN is more stable then reported here in many posts and the farther I shoot them and see what they do, the better I like them. Boolit fit to the gun is more important then nose shape. If you can't get one to shoot, it is something else. Which brings up the semi-wadcutter---NONE will equal a truncated cone nose. I gave up on them.

[45 2.1]

The first to exit goes where the barrel is pointed at that instant but the bottom of the column has not reached the muzzle yet but it will also go where the muzzle is pointed when it exits.

Still don't agree with you. The sideways barrel movement imparts an angular velocity component to the forward velocity component. This is a well understood in several fields, especially in vector analysis of force systems. The angular velocity is small in comparison, but it is there non the less.

[Ricochet]

44Man is looking at it from the wrong inertial frame, that of the barrel. From the reference frame containing the shooter and the target, yes, the bullet does continue to move upward at a right angle to the barrel's instantaneous axial line at the moment of the bullet's exit, as does the barrel.

[44man]

I DO understand the process but I am only disputing the effect at long range when the sighting has already compensated for the barrel rise and effect.
The effect is less the faster the projectile is too so is hardly worth messing with.
To measure and see any differences between any vector changes between the .44 and .475 as to the effect at the target is even beyond the scope of our ability to hold the gun still or even see the target clearly. Let's say a .475 barrel rises 1" more under recoil then the .44 before the boolit leaves. Does that 1" "toss" the boolit high enough to see?
My argument has been that any additional rise of the boolit will not raise the point of impact at long range because it is adjusted out already and is so slight to be moot to start with.
The short barrels and fast barrel time of our boolits makes it a non issue as far as the target goes. I doubt any toss of a boolit will amount to even 1/16" at 50 yd's, might only be measured in thousandths.
Someone can work it out on paper but will have to factor in for every boolit weight and length, caliber, velocity, powder amount and weight, sight in distance, gun weight and barrel length. Even powder burn rate.
Basically, we get no effect from it and the boolit can considered to leave the muzzle in a straight line. One click on a sight would over compensate for any boolit "toss."
The "angle of the dangle" goes away with a sight setting.
So if anyone can prove to me a boolit is tossed 18" or more from the point it left the muzzle due to an inch or so more recoil I will continue to look at it as the boolit going out in line with the bore with any vectoring far less then the grouping ability of any revolver or shooter. Spin precession, air resistance and drag has more effect at long range.
I can understand the importance to figure a vector for an old tank cannon or other old piece that shoots miles. They do not sight at 50 yd's but have to add in everything at the start. Even that vector is reduced or eliminated with recoil systems that let the barrel come straight back. Spin effects are also gone with the smooth bores and fin stabilized projectiles.
You can't make more out of it then it is! :drinks:

[BABore]

Then, explain to me how, when I sighted my 9 1/2", 480 Ruger in to hit dead on at 50 yards, that I was only hitting 4-6" low at 200 yards using an identical sight picture. This was with open sights from a bench. It was not with just a shot or two either. I was practicing up for an elk hunt and shot over 300 rounds this way over the course of several weeks.

Or when I mounted an UltraDot on the same gun and used the same load, again sighting it in at 50 yards. At 200 yards I had to aim about 12 inches over to connect. Handed the gun to 45 2.1 and he gave it a go. His 50 yard group was very close to mine, yet at 200 yards he had to aim several inches above where I needed to be. For me, the added weight of the sight and Ruger rings lessened the muzzle climb. For 45 2.1 it was the difference in grip which changed the recoil. Both of us bench shoot with the butt of the grip unsupported and a bag under our wrists.

The bullet is climbing to meet the sights and the height above the bore will dictate the degree of climb. Open sights, being lower, will have less of an angle and thus drop faster and farther at 200 yards. Yet I was seeing just the opposite. Kindly explain please.

[Larry Gibson]

Difference in sight pictures is the explanation.

The difference in POI that occurs due to such is commonly known and has been for a long, long time. You had the same zero at 50 yards with both the iron sights and the ultradot yet with iron sights the load hit 4-6" low and with the Ultradot it hit 12" low (your statements). You think this is caused by the barrel flipping the bullet up? Not hardly. You had different sight pictures is all. I'd guess the 12" drop with the ultra dot is closer to reality. The fact that 45 2.1 "had to aim several inches above where I needed to be" is further evidence of this. It is simply a case of different sight pictures.

You guys are trying to hypothisize too much into what is simple exterior ballistics. 44man is correct.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

You guys are trying to hypothisize too much into what is simple exterior ballistics. 44man is correct.
Larry Gibson

You can believe anything you want. Dynamic aspects of recoil influence many people to think they know what is going on. What you don't know and haven't observed is the manner of managing recoil that someone else uses that you haven't seen. A practical application of this is different sight settings on the same gun and ammo for different people to hit the same target. It all happens while the boolit is in the barrel, not after it has left it.

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

Hypothisize all you want to. You've no idea what I know or don't know. All you want to do is ignore facts and argue. You argue with ballistics all you want, you lose. I'm not going to argue with you.

Larry Gibson

[leftiye]

Oh! Goody, here we go again! As in other threads which we are all aware of, there are several points being made by different people here. The different people are all right. They are just not argueing the same point. And, as in those other threads, some of us are answering the others with totally separate points. It is not my habit to be political (I'll say what I think whether or not you like it), but I agree with almost all of what has been said.

[44man]

Larry, 45 2.1 is close to the truth. I agree that how the sights are seen does cause variations in POI but he is correct that no two people will hold the gun the same and have the same POI and no two will see the sights the same.
Then what someone does when touching off the gun in anticipation of heavy recoil REALLY effects POI, sometimes raising it and sometimes plowing tater furrows.
Sorry but if the gun is on at 50 and you are shooting very high at 200, YOU are causing it. Or the boolit is light and fast and has little drop. C'mon guys, if you are flipping a boolit up in the air, it will be too high at 50 too. It won't shoot flat at 50 and then RAISE!
Nobody has mentioned what the eye sees at 200 meters or yards with open sights! As you bring the sights to the bottom of a steel target ( or any black target.) there will be a line of light on top of the front sight. If you do not know what you are doing, the light line will NOT go away even if you raise the sight clear to the top of the steel. It is an optical illusion and will not go away. You have to look at the whole target and see where you are actually aiming. Never depend on the light line to go away when the lower edge of the target is reached, because it won't. Experienced IHMSA shooters know this and never worry about the light line, only how high the sight picture is. You have two eyes, use them!
My take is that Babore is trying to make the light line go away and is aiming too high.

[Larry Gibson]

44man

Yes that is what he said ("POI but he is correct that no two people will hold the gun the same and have the same POI and no two will see the sights the same.") But that is also what I said. Seeing the sights is sight alignement and seeing the sights and the target is sight picture. We all see them differently and that causes POI changes. However if the revolver is zeroed at 50 yards as BABore stated for the both of them then the trajectory is the same. If there is a a difference in POI at a longer range then it is is caused by the difference in the sight picture used at that longer range between the two of them. Now both BABore and 45 2.1 profess to be good shots and I have no cause to disagree. If they are now admitting to poor marksmanship (grip and hold of the weapon being a fundemental of marksmanship) and allowing the revolver to throw rounds then I will concede their poor marksmanship to be the probable cause.

Obviously you also are a very good shot. If both of your revolvers were zeroed at 50 yards and the .475 shot to a less POI at 200 yards then I will stand by the fact that the .475 shoots flatter as you are a good shot and would be using the same sight picture at both ranges.

I do not have to contend with 45 2.1's continual insults ("What you don't know and haven't observed") and his apparent know it all attitude. I was as leftiye points out; "The different people are all right". Revolver barrels do "fling" (not exactly the terminollogy I would have used but it is descriptive) up. That is why the front sights are higher above boreline than the rear sights. A vector does have to be considered when shooting from a moving platform and 44man is a good shot. The point is; if both revolvers are zeroed at 50 yards then shot at 200 yards using the same sight picture then the trajectories are what they are. That is a simple fact of exterior ballistics. If the .475 shoots flatter then thats what it is. If the the same revolver is zeroed at 50 yards for 2 shooters of ability and there is then a difference in trajectory at 200 yards then one of those 2 or perhaps both of them did something different for the 200 yard shooting. Almost always it is a different sight picture.

That is my point. I do not have to put up with 45 2.1's condescending and know it all attitude. Good day to you all.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

Lots and lots of assumptions. 44man, first of all we don't shoot black silohuettes, they were painted orange and were on another persons range. I shot BABores SRH 480 with his loads and the revovler had a red dot sight on it, the one you recommended, nice red dot BTW. I shot a 50 yd target to get the feel of the gun and find where it hit for me, then I shot it at a 200 yd gong, about 9 inch square. I made about a 3 1/4" group with it and had to aim over some. Gun ergonomics dictate what you have to do to make it shoot and they're not the same from gun to gun either. A high sight line above the bore does strange things to handgun boolit trajectory, even this occurs in rifles. A 4 MOA dot isn't the best thing for longer range shooting.

Larry, you should calm down and actually read what was posted.

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

With all sincerity intended you might take your own advise. Obviously 4 of us here understand what was said. 44man has it correct with;

"Sorry but if the gun is on at 50 and you are shooting very high at 200, YOU are causing it. Or the boolit is light and fast and has little drop. C'mon guys, if you are flipping a boolit up in the air, it will be too high at 50 too. It won't shoot flat at 50 and then RAISE!"

I will say that your last post is the type you normally post. It makes very good points of discussion. I do appreciate the good points of discussion you bring to the forum. 'Tis the other that is rather irritating to me. I suppose I do irritate you somewhat at times also. How about we just get on with a discussion?

Still good sgooting on 44man's part thoght and obviously those big .475s are indeed still stable out there!

Larry Gibson

[waksupi]

Don't you guys start up again.

[44man]

Everyone makes good points, some wrong, some right but 45 2.1 also talks about the red too and it's size at long range and this can be a big factor. It covers a LOT of area out there but you have to figure drop from the CENTER of that huge dot, not the lower edge. The easiest way to shoot it at range is to rest the dot on something so to make a measurement for drop you need to add the distance to the center of the dot. Very important when you use holdover. The best way is to use both eyes and see where the center is aimed. Measure from there.
That really gets nasty at 500 meters! :mrgreen:
When shooting IHMSA with open sights, the biggest problem with shooting over was using one eye and continuing to raise the sights trying to make the light line go away at the bottom of the target. It will go away when you pass the top of the target. Color of the target will not save you from doing this.
When you raise the gun to the bottom you will see the light line shrink to a very thin line. It will NOT go away as you raise into the target. This makes guys think they are aiming the same as they did at 50 yd's when they are actually way up, even at the very top of the target. That is where the line will blink on and off as you jiggle above and below the top edge. Looks good--shoot for a clean miss!
Sorry, but a .480 just does not shoot that flat. It's the shooter or from where the measurement was taken. You are not tossing the boolit so it rises after it passes 50 yd's. Kind of magic boolits I guess! [smilie=1:

[44man]

Another thing I forgot. Boolit impact will follow the sun. As the day goes on you will hit higher or lower depending on sun position.
If you want to see it for yourself, mount a scope solid, dead center on a 200 yd target in the morning and never touch it. Just go out every 15 minutes and look through it.
You will be amazed and wonder how you hit anything. The crosshairs will rise up above and circle the target as much as a foot to the side, then slowly move back towards center from the bottom.
If you can see a scope do it, what are the open sights doing? There are times you will not even be aiming at the actual target at all. The target is NOT where you see it. This is the reason you shoot better at some ranges then you do at others.
That is why my range is in the shade.

[Bass Ackward]

Spent my whole life and never realized the sun was doing me.

I had to spend some time thinkin on this and actually had to do this to be sure. What I find for handguns is that my body does different things for different reasons. At 50 yards my arms are very straight as I am trying to push that gun away to bring things into focus. Recoil is more controlled. Actually I could use longer, ape like arms. Evolution! :grin:

As I go on out, I don't need to do that to get good focus. In fact, just the opposite so I relax more to concentrate on the target. Thus I have more bend in my elbows allowing the gun to recoil freely and POI goes higher than it otherwise would. This also gives the impression that "my" handgun loads are doing more than what they are. This happens from a bench or freehand.

Can't get over the sun doing me like that. When I was young, my targets used to move. Real quick like so your eye couldn't catch the movement. When I understood this, made missing more tolerable. Now days, and it's damn insulting, they just sit there and camouflage over. So you put on one of them moon observation devises and they go back to that moving crap. Won't this game ever play fair?

My range is in the shade too. But for different reasons. I don't want to wear a hat. I don't wear a hat cause my rifles usually take it off. 378 Wby's will take your teeth out at the same time. Why oh why is that such a popular caliber for right handed custom guns?

[44man]

Bass, you are a card! :bigsmyl2: I wish we lived close together.

[44man]

Remember the can I shot at 200 yd's with my .475 brf? A friend brought his kids to shoot this afternoon so I put the can back on the rail. I took one shot at it OFF HAND at 100 yd's and hit it exactly where I was holding. This BFR is amazing to say the least.

[Bass Ackward]

Remember the can I shot at 200 yd's with my .475 brf? A friend brought his kids to shoot this afternoon so I put the can back on the rail. I took one shot at it OFF HAND at 100 yd's and hit it exactly where I was holding. This BFR is amazing to say the least.


I find other things that are amazing too. Like the fact that you keep your cans to shoot later! Now that's amazing! :grin:

One thing about getting old. If you have the cans long enough, you can forget where the holes were by the time you walk back. That hole was probably already there and the wind knocked it off. :grin:

There's a fine line between frugal and cheap. Appears you are clear over on the other hill. :grin:

[44man]

Bass, I am over the hill all right! :drinks: Notice how the posts stop when I put my pictures on? Notice no one else posts pictures?
But you always answer and that means a lot to me. You make fun of me and I love it. You are one hell of a man! Thank you.

[44man]

I was waiting for some more vecture responses with the picture! [smilie=1:
Since the gun was sighted and shot from bags to get drop and to hit small targets to 200 yd's I thought someone would catch the fact that shooting off hand with more recoil effect should have made me shoot way over the target but didn't.
I confess that it doesn't happen often off hand but I had the best sight picture ever on the can when the trigger broke. The POI is exactly the same as where it is when the gun is locked on bags.
I posted somewhere before about these crazy large bores that shoot the same no matter how I shoot them, something I can't do with the .44 or smaller. I need different sight settings with the smaller bores if I change shooting methods. (Yeah, I consider the .44 small!) :mrgreen:
Why the much stronger recoil from the 45-70 and .475 doesn't show POI changes with a change in hold is beyond my scope to explain.
I let my friend shoot the .475 at a target off hand and he clanged steel a lot----Trouble was the steel was my target frame! :neutral:
All he kept saying was "this thing is a BRUTE." [smilie=w:

[BABore]

Well, the original topic of this thread was the contention the 44Man's 475 had half the drop of his 44 Mag at 200 yards. I stated that this was not so. In reality the two rounds are nearly identical. I also stated that the higher POI of the 475 was caused by the more pronounced recoil. Fine! To each his own.

As most of you probably know, finding the ballistic coefficient of a cast bullet is not done by looking it up in a book. So I went the next best route. I looked up the appropriate jacketed bullets BC on the Hornady website. I picked the two best heavy-for caliber choices for the 44 mag and 475 Linebaugh that were available. They were;

Hornady .430 dia, 300 gr. XTP HP with a BC of 0.245
Hornady .475 dia, 400 gr XTP HP with a BC of 0.182

I then went to Hodgdon's website for the hottest load for each caliber.

44 Mag, Hornady 300 gr XTP HP, WW 296 @ 19.0 grs, 1,325 fps
475 Linebaugh, Hornady 400 gr XTP HP, Lil Gun @ 24.0 grs, 1,344 fps

I then plugged the numbers into a simple, freeware program called "Point Blank" to calculate the external ballistics and tragectory. The program didn't allow me to scale the trajectory graph, so 200 yard information was off the graph unless I extended the zero. I had to settle for 150 yards. Maybe someone with a more advanced program could help out here. I used a sight height above bore of 1.5 inches for the UltraDot sight. Here's what I got;

44Mag with a 50 and 100 yard zero's
50 Yards: 0.0, +2.2
100 Yards: -4.2, 0.0
150 Yards: -15.5, -8.6

475 LB with 50 and 100 yard zero's
50 Yards: 0.0, +2.2
100 Yards: -4.4, 0.0
150 Yards: -16.5, -9.1

Now I don't own a 475, but understand that you can usually coax a bit more steam out of them velocity-wise. So I upped the velocity to 1,500 fps.

475 LB with 50 and 100 yard zero's
50 Yards: 0.0, +1.7
100 Yards: -3.3, 0.0
150 Yards: -12.5, -7.5

I thought maybe the 475's BC looked a bit low so I used the 44 Mag's BC in place of it so they were now equal at 0.245. I also left the velocity at 1,500 fps.

475 LB with 50 and 100 yard zero's
50 Yards: 0.0, +1.5
100 Yards: -3.0, 0.0
150 Yards: -11.5, -6.8

I'm sure that these numbers can be tightened up with better software and bullet information, but I will stand by my original statements.

[44man]

Babore, I DO have the answer and have given it several times but nobody ever caught on. You are correct with trajectory. My last post explained it again! :kidding:
OK, OK, I will now crash the whole topic but it has been a super discussion none the less.
The entire reason is that the .44 does not shoot the same elevation when locked on sandbags with any change. Since I set the butt tighter at 200 then I do at close range it will not hit the same. Even with the 10" barrel it is very sensitive and any change in barrel rise needs a different sight setting and is the reason I have to sight it in off hand before deer season after shooting from bags all summer. A few ounces of different bag pressure will raise or lower the POI a LOT.
Can we now expand on it? I have shown it with pictures, have shown what a cast boolit will do from fairly cheap guns, have shown even my cheap home made molds work. I have made some of you think and we got some super responses back and forth---This was NOT a loss to any of us, I was not playing you---well, maybe a little! [smilie=1: I am kind of surprised nobody came up with the answer though. I use the same hold but failed to mention I set the butt a few ounces tighter at long range so the gun does not wiggle as much.
Now why doesn't the 7-1/2" .475 or 10" 45-70 act the same way? Why do they shoot the same place no matter how I hold them or how tight I set the butt? Why doesn't the fierce recoil make them worse then the .44? Or the .357 for that matter. Why do they shoot to the same POI with a proper 2 hand hold like they do from loose or tight bags? Why can I sight them from bags and just go hunting with them yet the .44 goes crazy?
Well, a limp wrist, one hand hold will make them shoot real high and a limp, relaxed 2 hand hold still goes high but it will do the same with any gun and affects all ranges the same so I want to leave that out.
Most answers here have said more barrel rise from hard recoil makes the gun shoot different at different ranges and the boolit "toss" can flatten trajectory????? I found that strange.
It appears that as I step up the recoil the LESS trouble I have hitting what I shoot at. I have never owned any revolvers that are so consistantly accurate at any range then my real hard kicking ones. I have to grit my teeth to make any .44 and under caliber to shoot the same day to day and will NEVER duplicate the 200 yd group I posted. Yet I can take the .475 or 45-70 down any day of the year, rest it or shoot it off hand and hit to the sights every time and call every shot with any boolit/bullet. And the .44, as accurate as it is and is the one I shot 79 out of 80 IHMSA with, changes day to day, rest to rest. But once adjusted, it is stable for the whole shooting session. How I hold the grip in my hand itself doesn't matter, only everything else.
So you see Babore, something else is at work because the BFR's and Rugers are same with the same grips too. The .44 uses a 330 WLN gr boolit at around 1320 fps. The .475 uses a 420 gr WFN at 1329 fps.

[BABore]

Never questioned your ability, loads or firearms. Your history on such things is already well documented on this here forum.

I rest my pistols with the butt unsupported except for my two hands. I do rest my wrists over bags to eliminate as much wobble as possible. Off hand groups impact very close to the same POA for me this way. I would hazard a guess that what you are seeing is real similar to resting your rifle bbl atop a fence post or against a tree. It's shooting away from a hard object. The different ballistics and pressure curves of the 44, 45-70, and 475 are probably the variable your seeing.

With a 7 1/2" 44 Mag, Ruger SBHH, 295 gr cast driven fast with WW 296, and a 9 1/2" 480 Ruger SRH , 400 gr cast loaded up, I'm seeing almost identical 200 yard drops. Both have optics mounted at similar heights.

I have tried resting the grip butt on a bag, but have never achieved consistency with a wheel gun. It does work for me with a Contender though.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Now why doesn't the 7-1/2" .475 or 10" 45-70 act the same way? Why do they shoot the same place no matter how I hold them or how tight I set the butt? Why doesn't the fierce recoil make them worse then the .44? Or the .357 for that matter. Why do they shoot to the same POI with a proper 2 hand hold like they do from loose or tight bags? Why can I sight them from bags and just go hunting with them yet the .44 goes crazy?

The recoil from your loudenboomers are much higer than your pipsqueak 44's (and they are heavier as well) - but the strength in your hands and arms remain the same. Therefore muzzle climb on those cannons are less influenced (percentagewise) by the way you grip them... I think.

Sorry for butting in like this, but I *really* need to raise my post count to get promoted from the lowly 'boolit mold' rank. [smilie=1:

[44man]

Yep, the butt is a problem. I just can't hold still enough by resting a part of the gun and my wrists though. I actually hold tighter from Creedmore then by doing that.
The smaller calibers are a mystery though and I can string shots up and down by just the feel of the bag under the butts.
Why my loudenboomers don't react like that is even stranger. I have experimented and stringing is only an inch or so. I have even whimped the .475 so it hits my hat brim and makes me jerk away but still hit the top of the group.
This .475 is something else if you poke it out with one hand and shoot at a deer though. You will overshoot one at 10 yd's. Add the other hand and it hits where aimed at all ranges.
Cap'n, please join in. I can tell you one thing about the hogleg grip though. When I shot IHMSA with the .44 I would vary my grip up and down depending on the target elevation and my head position without missing steel. Sometimes I cracked my big knuckle so I had to shift the grip and I still hit steel. I dared not do that with a Bisley or Smith.
But you can't change the pressure under the butt with a sandbag under it.
I have one theory and don't know if it holds water. The bigger guns raise your hand and wrists up off the bag so fast that the butt pressure is not a factor. They lose contact too fast, before the butt compresses the bag and impedes barrel rise.
I had to do some thinking before I answered Babore because it was also baffling me with the drop difference. Old age does that. Even though I knew what was going on, I still did not have the answer when it was staring me in the face all along. So I was not really pulling anyones leg. I just got a little giddy with the last few posts after the answer came. Thought I would have some fun! :mrgreen:
Naw, not really, just trying to act smarter then I am! [smilie=1:
Anyway, all of you have been great and there is a ton of information here now.
Even Bass never said anything about my hat! :-D

[theperfessor]

I think Cap'n Morgan has a good point. You can grip a gun with an a mount of force ranging from nearly zero (not recommended) to whatever your maximum strength allows. A milder kicking gun can therefore be free to recoil/rise a lot or a little. A much harder kicking gun will recoil a lot or a lot more. Your range of "dampening" ability is much smaller in this case. I think the idea of a percentage comparison of grip strength versus recoil is right on.

The smaller the ratio, the less grip strength variation effects changes in the point of impact.

This applies to offhand, not supported-off-sandbags shooting.

[leftiye]

I think BaBore's coverage of the 44 versus 475 was well done. I wouldn't bend over backwards however to try to give the .475 an advantage as he seems to do. I don't know how hot 44Man's loads are, however both guns can be loaded mild, standard, or wide eyed crazy and seem to have about the same velocity possibilities. That being said 1325 fps sounds like a standard load for both, and the 44 seems to have an advantage for ballistic coefficient. It might be a smidgin flatter?

I've rested the butt of a 454 on a fender of one a them cheap Chevrolets (so you know it wasn't some lightweight vehicle with tin foil fenders) and dented the fender with the recoil. There is definitely some downward kick delivered by the butt of a revolter! And there should therefore be reason to think that a revolter could "bounce" off of a rest taken on the butt. (it shot to point of aim in this case though.) I guess my guess is that we're trying to explore something almost as complex as the gun/ reloading/casting thang itself here. Might not be AN answer, but many possible issues here.

I do also think that the possibility that the .475 requires a "white knuckled" grip probly comes into play , and as has been said rules out a lot of variation that is possible in less buttkicking calibers.

[44man]

Very much so but I use the same grip unless I am experimenting. In this case it is only the pressure on the butt bag that changes POI.
With experience most of us hold with the right grip. Most everyone here except the rank beginner does very well. This site has a LOT of experience and smart shooters.
I took my 45-70 BFR down today when Jerry brought his kids to shoot again. I have a 378 gr WFN I made for deer but never shot at long range yet. I put that can up again and with Jerry spotting I put 3 shots in less then 3" just to the right and a little low, off hand. I aimed a little left and hit the can but was a little low yet. I need to work with this new boolit and the red dot settings but I am happy.
I have trouble believing I am shooting so good off hand---is it the right amount of booze? :confused:
No, just a light beer! I think I am half dead and turning to stone! :drinks: