New trapdoor- .461 instead of .458 has unique challenges-help me out?

[Radarsonwheels]

Howdy!

I have a few gun projects going on and all moving slowly like paper patching for a sharps and finding a great projectile and load for a colt series 80 38 super. Life keeps getting in the way but my kid'll only be 4 once so slow is just fine.

Of course I have to make things difficult for myself! An 1873 trapdoor rifle (1874 manufacture) followed me home and I just gotta go shoot it! Black powder cartridges will happen eventually and I ordered a cheap hollow base mold to try later too. In the meantime I cast some lee 500 grain pointy boolits in 30:1 and hand smeared em with nasa lube, then slipped them into some re-primed unsized fired cases over 42 grains of varget because I have some, and gave them a light crimp.

I just made 60 boolits and only loaded 8 to see if they shoot ok. They chamber fine! I have questions about how to do this- the trapdoor load has a few challenges!

-I'm decapping with a spike and a small hammer- I don't want to resize because then the nice fat .461" boolits won't fit in the cases. Is there a better on press option? I am set up to do 45-70 for regular .458 boolits but the .462 are throwing me for a loop.

-I'm smearing the lube by hand after working it a little under hot tap water. When I push the boolit in the cases it scrapes off any excess which is messy, but I didn't want to make a cookie cutter out of a fired case & do a lube cookie because it seemed too tight to easily get the boolit in and out? I am wiping them clean before crimping but it's a lot of work. Maybe (well for sure) I should slug my barrel and just buy a die for my lube-sizer.

Does anybody have advise for how to deal with these oversized 45-70s? It's possible that I'll be able to just load the hollow base at 458 if I cast it nice and soft, which would allow me to decap with my resizing die, lube with my 458 die, and load like I'm used to with other calibers.

Thanks for reading!
radar in bucks county pa

[44man]

I lapped out Lee push through dies with the purpose of removing excess lube. I also smear lube on by hand and it is messy. I use Felix for smokeless and BPCR lube for BP. No need to warm either.
You are OK not sizing for the single shot rifle.
Varget should work well and 3031.
Make a decapper, life gets easier.183362 I have made 2 and they sure are better then a nail. I also have punches with pins that fit the cases so I don't have to hunt for the holes. Slip the case on and squeeze the handle. I like the little aluminum one best. Takes minutes to deprime 50 cases.
You can buy one too, ask the BPCR guys. I never buy if I can make it.

[runfiverun]

I'm pretty sure lee makes a universal de-cap die.
you probably want to look into pain lubing and a push through die to get the 460 you want.
I would spend a little time on the noe site looking at his sizers and case mouth spuds.

[Scharfschuetze]

You are experiencing a very common problem with the military 3 groove barrels on the Trapdoors. There are lots of ways to skin this cat. Usually a larger than normal 45 calibre boolit is the solution which you have already ascertained.

Because I load for several original Trapdoors, I just follow the following procedure. I decap using a Lyman universal deprimer and then I just neck size the case. After sizing, I expandthe internal diameter to .458 and then I load cast boolits sized to .460" with Alox formula lube for smokeless or SPG for smokeless or black powder. They are cast soft and I usually use the Lee 405 grain hollow base boolit that is similar to the Frankford Arsenal boolits used in the original 1873 45/55 and 45/70 loads. I've also had good luck with the Lyman 457193 design. Both designs get a good roll crimp as the final step.

I get pretty good accuracy this way in several original Trapdoors. I've shot these loads to 900 yards and farther with perfect success. Perhaps your TD has a larger bore than mine... hope not. With the TD's odd numbered and non-opposed grooves and lands, they are hard to get an accurate measurement of the goove and land diameters.

At any rate, cast soft with the diameter of your choosing and go for about 1,300 fps with a fairly fast rifle powder such as 4227, 4759 or 4198. That way you'll duplicate the original infantry load which shoots pretty well in these old war horses. Slower powders like 4895 or Varget will work fine also but you may loose some obturation of a soft cast boolit due to the lower overall pressure or longer time to peak pressure. Remember that Trapdoors were developed with soft lead projectiles and black powder. The closer you get to that formula, the higher the likelihood of success.

[44man]

I cast soft for the old ones, usually 20 to 1. But still get fit. 4198 beat my cheek. 3031 was half the recoil and cut groups way down. Seems to be as close to BP as you can get. BP does not ignite all at once. Too much BP will reduce velocity. It adds to boolit weight. BP favors a longer barrel. BP does NOT explode and has a progressive rate about like medium powders.

[Piedmont]

My trapdoor is .464". I bought two oversized molds from LBT ages ago and bought a .464" lubrisizer die. You can still use a .45-70 full length sizer die by backing it out to just size your case the amount you need while still knocking out primers. This all worked well. You are lucky with all the mold makers now who will make exactly the size, weight, and shape you want.

[Radarsonwheels]

Wow thanks fellas lotsa great responses! Merry Christmas to all and thanks for your time!

I made enough the slow way to test out- an educated stab in the dark. If they don't lead then I'll grab a new lube size die to match these as cast. I'll check out the costs on decappers and decide whether to make or buy one.

[44man]

Like any caliber, it is hard to get stability if boolits are too heavy and long. Even 1 to 20 twist is slow and BP has a limit. You can do better with smokeless but the gun is old and has a limit but you will still feel it at the shoulder.
I have made more molds for the 45-70 than any other, some crazy weights and up to .464" but the Rapine 500 gr Gov't still works, I got it in .460".
The 1 in 14" of my BFR was eye opening and the only problem was finding a powder that works in the 10" barrel. SR 4759 was the best, I bought a bunch before it was gone. 3031 did not all burn and 4198 gave me excursions from 1600 to over 1800 fps and stuck brass. I don't even need to clean brass with 4759. I have not tried the 500 gr, 350 to 360 gr boolits gave me 3/16" groups at 50 yards. Getting the revolver to work with the huge case was a chore and I imagine a .450 Marlin cylinder would be worse.
You will not have much problem with a rifle. I feel the old guns and sights were regulated for the 500 gr Gov't, still a great boolit. Don't look for speed, it will only skid you across the ground.

[Scharfschuetze]

I feel the old guns and sights were regulated for the 500 gr Gov't

With the advent of the 500 grain infantry and Gatling gun load, the 45/70/500; the 1884 and 1888 rifles used the Buffington sight calibrated for the 500 grain bullet. Colonel Buffington actually test and confirmed the settings at the various ranges on the sight along a long beach.

The previous 1873, 1878 and 1879 Trapdoor sights to my knowledge were all graduated for the 45/70/405 grain load.

[Radarsonwheels]

Here's the first dozen shots out of it- offhand at 50 yards with the sights set wonky just like I bought it. I didn't bring a spotting scope because usually I'm alone at my club's ranges on a cold wet weekday afternoon. I guess people are still off from the holiday and wanted to shoot their new xmas guns!

Anyway, I thought the sights might have been set that way for a reason by the previous owner but I was wrong. The group shows promise and the barrel didn't lead up at all so my cartridge is a great start. It was funny that I was thinking it felt like a 12g trap load to shoot- it is 1 1/4oz of lead at 1100ish fps so of course it does! I could shoot this thing all day!

I anticipated a poa/poi difference so I hung a lot of paper. My holes are all in a ring at 1:00 half on half off my 11"x17" sheets.

[Scharfschuetze]

Looks like you are on the way Radar. Nice report of your success.