Lead particles

[hpdrifter]

Was shooting some 38-55 loads today. They were new loads.

Boollits were .378 in my JES rebore.

Wasn't getting any long streaks of leading or even any short streaks/buildup of lead.

I was getting some "flecks" of lead when cleaning. Tiny little pieces.

Any one have any idea of the condition/causes of this. Doesn't really seem to be a problem, just curious.

[Hick]

Don't know the cause but I'll be watching this thread. I have gotten the same thing with my two Winchesters. Looking at my loads, it looks to me like leading goes in three steps. (1) none at all (2) beginning to find flecks of lead when I clean-- but still shooting OK (3) Leading! I suspect it means we are right at the ragged edge of starting to get serious leading, but I'm not certain. Hopefully an expert will chime in on this.

[44man]

Most leading is caused by the boolit not taking the twist, skidding wider grooves in the boolit base so gas pressure can blast off lead. I liken it to cutting metal with high pressure water jets.
With less skid you can have the little pieces. If not ironed into the rifling, the next boolit will push it out when a good lube is used. Once the gas path gets too large the gases will melt lead and every boolit lube is an excellent flux to tin steel.
I did a test with a soldering iron with all lubes and all worked to tin metal.
The best secret is to stop skid and keep a seal. I have recovered and studied thousands of boolits.
I found wider marks on the front does no harm as long as the base band grooves show no skid.
A gas check is a good skid stop. But too soft a boolit will overcome the check, seen with checks tinned with lead and grooves wider then rifling.

[rond]

Here's my theory: When the boolit engages the rifling, lead is displaced in a furrow. As the boolit travels down the bore that furrow is flattened and stripped off, leaving flakes of lead.

[Soundguy]

what hardness of boolits are you casting?

[hpdrifter]

straight coww w/ 2% sn. 1500 fps. Seems accurate

[Soundguy]

that sounds ok.. I was just wondering if there were extremely soft, or extremely hard and brittle. COWW+ should be fine.

[daloper]

Are you sure that what you have is not unburned powder and not lead?

[hpdrifter]

Are you sure that what you have is not unburned powder and not lead?

pretty sure. it's bright and shiney, looks a lot like lead. Most powder residue looks kinda black to me.

[44man]

Are you sure that what you have is not unburned powder and not lead?
Not hardly. Lead is sure different.

[Digital Dan]

My experience says this is common and not something to worry about. I've seen it in virtually every gun I've shot cast thru, .22 Hornet, .30-30, .25-20 and more, all with a variety of alloys from 30:1 up to a Lyman #2 equivalent, with velocities from subsonic to 2300 fps, gas checked and plain base. What I refer to are very small lead particles perhaps something just on the north side of dust size. It has had no adverse influence on accuracy. The single thing that separates them what does and them that don't, is the lube. I see this exclusively with Alox lube, never with more typical styles.

[.22-10-45]

I have two moulds from Fred Leeth 52gr. .22cal. One is G.C., the other plain base..other than one being G.C., both are identical in shape & weight. Shooting the plain-base, I always find very tiny specks of lead on patch..only about 2 or 3. With G.C., I find none. I believe the check is scraping off any small specks on it's way out bore.

[44man]

I have two moulds from Fred Leeth 52gr. .22cal. One is G.C., the other plain base..other than one being G.C., both are identical in shape & weight. Shooting the plain-base, I always find very tiny specks of lead on patch..only about 2 or 3. With G.C., I find none. I believe the check is scraping off any small specks on it's way out bore.
Not a scraper. Just a better seal. See the name--GAS CHECK not lead scraper.

[Bookworm]

There are a great many theories of what exactly happens inside a gun barrel when the projectile is traveling the length. And that is what they are - theories.

The pressures and temperatures are just too high to actually "see" (with instruments, of course) exactly what is happening. All we know for sure, is what went in the breech end, and what comes out the business end.

All the rest is interpolation. Theories.
Opinion, backed by experience and hunches, but opinion none the less.

Does a gas check seal the bore, or scrape it clean ? Nobody can prove either way.

Not that the end result is any different. It would just be nice to know.

[hpdrifter]

just loaded a few more rounds,,,,,a little less powder; hoping for 1350 fps to see what they do.

[beagle]

I'm assuming you're using a PB bullet. In the normal sequence of things, the primer will ignite and blow any powder against the base of the bullet. We know this as we can see powder indentations on recovered bullet bases. Next, the powder starts to ignite and form pressure. Since the bullet hasn't started to move yet, the case expands and some propellant gas escapes past the base of the bullet and up the barrel past the bullet. We know this as you see a small jet of smoke before the bullet exits the barrel and you get a big blast of muzzle blast. The first is usually whiter in color. Initially, as the powder starts to burn and blow-by the bullet, it erodes the sharp corners of a plain base bullet and melts the "wire edge" off the bullet base. This is where the particles come from. When the bullet hits the rifling, it "stops" and pressure behind the bullet bumps the bullet base and seals the bore and the firing process continues normally. These lead particles are laid down in melted lube and "ironed" down into the rifling by the bullet. Good lube and a good bullet fit eliminate most of the leading but some is always present. It just gets worse with time and rounds fired.

Felix and I discussed this many times and agreed on the sequence and causes but Felix is gone and lessons get forgotten.


The use of a gas check protects the corners of the flat base and eliminates this part of the problem.


I know this sounds like a complicated process and I've slowed it down in time when actually, it takes place in micro seconds./beagle

[hpdrifter]

so, any PB boolit will get at least a little gas cutting, no matter how good your casting/reloading/barrel fitting is?

[Bookworm]

.....Next, the powder starts to ignite and form pressure. Since the bullet hasn't started to move yet, the case expands and some propellant gas escapes past the base of the bullet and up the barrel past the bullet. We know this as you see a small jet of smoke before the bullet exits the barrel and you get a big blast of muzzle blast. The first is usually whiter in color. Initially, as the powder starts to burn and blow-by the bullet, it erodes the sharp corners of a plain base bullet and melts the "wire edge" off the bullet base. This is where the particles come from.....

Felix and I discussed this many times and agreed on the sequence and causes but Felix is gone and lessons get forgotten.
/beagle

With respect, sir, you (we) don't know this. You are surmising.

The jet of white smoke exiting the barrel ahead of the projectile could just as easily be the air that was in the barrel being pushed out by the bullet. The "puff" could be light-colored because it is actually super-heated air (heated from the velocity to which it is being pushed) and the humidity in the super-heated barrel-air is turned into steam. That would also explain why the "puff" in front of the bullet is "white", and everything behind the bullet is dark.

What you have here is a working theory. Nothing wrong with that, a working theory is how science is supposed to be conducted. You have a set of findings, and attempt to explain those findings. Then, after additional testing, something comes up that doesn't fit the explanation. The explanation (theory) is then changed, to fit the new circumstances.

Just because several researchers agree (albeit very experienced researchers) that something COULD be happening, that doesn't mean it is happening. That requires proof, which nobody, to my knowledge, has yet come up with. We just cannot "see" into the barrel or breech when all this is happening.

That being said, and none of this is said with any malice intended, I do like the theory about the powder slamming into the base of the bullet. It makes sense. I need to go get some of my captured boolits and examine them more closely.


Second point -
Keep in mind that, at some point in the projectiles' travel from the cartridge case to the rifling, the nose of the projectile hits the rifling and starts to rotate. The base of the projectile is yet not rotating. The projectile is being twisted from one end.
This could very easily shave minute particles from the nose of the boolit (the small flecks of lead) and deposit said particles in the bore.

Just an alternative point of view. It is, however, a logical explanation for what it going on.
An explanation (theory) that is markedly different from yours, but no less valid, because neither of us has any proof.

[44man]

so, any PB boolit will get at least a little gas cutting, no matter how good your casting/reloading/barrel fitting is?
No, I started making all of mine PB and made molds to fit each gun. My .475 and .500 JRH are PB too and I get no leading and haven't cleaned bores up to 5 years. Fit, alloy and lube still works. I only keep the cylinders clean so new STP can be applied to the pin and ratchet. I actually don't have to clean chambers either but do for the heck of it.
Maybe the secret is I don't actually size a boolit since they fit. I use mostly Lee push through's to remove excess lube so I don't push lead. I lap dies to what I need. I don't extrude lead at the base. I also use lead much, much harder then most do. I don't believe in bump up.
My .500 with a PB still does this for 4 shots at 100 yards and I have never cleaned the bore.183261 2 different aim points. Ignore the BP gun, I am shooting the same boolit from it with no luck yet. Twist is too fast for BP. Just why did they put a 1 in 20" twist in the gun? The JRH is 1 in 15" and needs 1350+ fps. Not to be in that pistol.

[44man]

I have a problem with the case expanding before the boolit leaves. Boolit movement opens the crimp and pressure behind expands the brass. Necks do not jump open.
Then the wrong primer and lube can move a boolit out before ignition. In a revolver you create the dreaded SEE event and the gap saves your butt. The best is to hold the boolit until ignition is going. Then a steady movement of the boolit with no "STOP."
Maybe my imagination gets carried away but it has held me in good stead for years.

[.22-10-45]

I think it was Merril Martin who proved with high speed photos in Precision shooting magazine article that jacketed bullets don't even seal 100%.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Use a patched round ball for your ML pistol. 180 gr at 1000+ ain't nothing to sneeze at. I shot a deer with my .50 ML pistol at about 50 yards and it went clean through, side to side. RB over 50 gr FFg.

As for the small lead looking flakes, they might even be what they call antimonial wash. I get that with some guns/loads. For me it always just stays about the same level. Must get blown out the barrel with each shot. If it does not build up and cause problems, just keep shooting!

[44man]

Use a patched round ball for your ML pistol. 180 gr at 1000+ ain't nothing to sneeze at. I shot a deer with my .50 ML pistol at about 50 yards and it went clean through, side to side. RB over 50 gr FFg

As for the small lead looking flakes, they might even be what they call antimonial wash. I get that with some guns/loads. For me it always just stays about the same level. Must get blown out the barrel with each shot. If it does not build up and cause problems, just keep shooting!
Doesn't work with this pistol. I would do better with a handful of gravel. No deer is big enough to hit at 50.

[masscaster]

A 38-55 is a .379 bore in most cases. I would suggest a .379 - .382 sized and lubed boolit. The boolits are being sheared, then dragging the flecks down the barrel.
These rifles can vary in bore diameter, so slugging is really a must.
COWW will be fine with a larger diameter boolit. I use White Label 2500+ as a Lube for nearly everything.

Jeff

[hpdrifter]

A 38-55 is a .379 bore in most cases. I would suggest a .379 - .382 sized and lubed boolit. The boolits are being sheared, then dragging the flecks down the barrel.
These rifles can vary in bore diameter, so slugging is really a must.
COWW will be fine with a larger diameter boolit. I use White Label 2500+ as a Lube for nearly everything.

Jeff

JES rebore .3758. .377 is what he suggested.

I'm not get any leading that really builds up. Just the small flecks.

Using Alox/Beeswax