Just some questions to ponder

[USMC87]

#1 Who was it that predicted the birth of Christ?
#2 How many wise men attended the birth of Christ?

[rl69]

#1 God first foretold of the birth of Jesus but the old testement is full of prophecy of the birth of Christ

#2 without cheating I'm going to say that thay weren't there for His birth

[Ickisrulz]

#1 God first foretold of the birth of Jesus but the old testement is full of prophecy of the birth of Christ

#2 without cheating I'm going to say that thay weren't there for His birth

I agree. What do you suppose they did with the gifts the Magi brought? I assume the family used the monetary value to travel to and get started in Egypt.

[Blackwater]

The ones traditionally identified as the "wise men" were three in number, IIRC. But with my memory .... well, let's just say I might be in error.

[rl69]

They brought 3 gifts the number of wise me is not given

[Boaz]

Been holding back ....love to hear talk . Traditionally there were three 'wise' men , also described as 'kings' . There were three gifts given of great value , simplest reasoning was...three givers . In some text or opinion there were up to 12 'wise' men . Gifts were gold , frankincense and myrrh . Highly valuable and very portable in small quantity .

[Boaz]

No record I know of but I agree with Ickisurlz that they used the gifts to finance their exodus to Egypt to let things settle down in Judea .

[USMC87]

How about the Magi? Who were they and what was their trade or profession?

[Boaz]

Dang it ! lol , I would have to 'restudy' One was considered to be Babylonian as to my recollection . I admit my failing of memory . Tell us sir . I would thank you .

[wv109323]

The Bible says they came from the East. That infers they were from the present day Iraq or Iran. The Bible does not give an exact location but the "east" refers to the northeast of Jersalem..
Magi comes from our word magic. They were regarded as well educated and described as scientist, astrologist or mathematicians. They are also referred to as Kings or Wise Men.

[wv109323]

The old joke is they were Firemen as the Bible says "they came from afar".

[Boaz]

You are correct ....they came from where the sun rises , pretty indefinite . But they had insight , understanding of a great event happening . Seeking enlightenment ?

[Blackwater]

This is an interesting thread. I suspect many of us, if not most, are so blown away by the central theme, that we forget the details, simply because we can't take our "eyes off the prize." But details DO matter, and things CAN be revealed in them. Somewhere along the line in the misty past, I heard it was 3 wise men, representing one each for the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. I'm not sure I buy that totally, but it sounds good, at least. However many there were, it was enough. That much I know. And it was SO appropriate that they paid homage to the Christ child. What else could mankind, represented by those 3 or however many there were, really do upon the birth of the Savior of all mankind from that day forward?

And as Boaz said, that they came from the east, the direction of the rising sun, is also symbolic, I believe. For a new Day on Earth was truly dawning with Christ's birth, one we'll never, even at out tip top best, be able to repay in the slightest. Christ was the greatest Gift we could ever have been given. And it's still that way, and always will be. Blessed be the name of the Lord.

[Ickisrulz]

How many people traveled with Mary and Joseph on their way to Bethlehem? Did some of Mary's female relatives accompany her so they could help deliver the baby? The Bible doesn't say.

It is very easy for us to imagine the couple traveling alone since that is the way we do it in modern America. The wife goes into labor and we drive her to the hospital. But it wasn't so back then. It is doubtful Mary and Joseph traveled alone because their loved ones would not permit it. They needed help.

[TXGunNut]

The Bible speaks of the wise men but since they travelled "from afar" it was likely months or even years before they arrived. I don't feel they attended Christ's birth. And yes, the Old Testament foretold the birth of Christ for many years. I'll be beginning my study of the Gospels' account of Christmas in the next few days. Every time I do this I find something new!

[Blackwater]

You're right, Ick, about how many there were travelling to Bethlehem. But the Bible has never puported to give us ALL the info and details we might be curious about. Only what we really need. With the Bible being as big and long a book as it already is, I think God knew what He was doing when he caused it to be created for us. People commit their whole lives toward understanding it, and not one yet, has truly "mastered" it all. Maybe that's to simply keep us humble, and searching to show ourselves approved? I'm sure they travelled in a group, though. There WERE bandits and thieves and murderers about in those days, and in that area. Even the blessed human carriers of the greatest Gift mankind will ever receive may have needed some protection and dissuasion to keep bad guys at bay? Very interesting to speculate about, even though as you say, none of us really knows.

And TxGun, the question I've always wondered about with respect to what you say, is how long was that Star of Bethlehem really there, and how long did Joseph and Mary and the Christ child have to stay there. To my knowledge, the Bible doesn't tell us that, which I've always inferred was to keep us focused more on the Christmas story, and less on our own wills, which so often seems to get us in trouble and bring us to sorrow.

So much to study and wonder about and ponder, lightly and seriously! Next to the Christ himself, I think the next greatest gift we've ever been given is the Bible. The more I learn, the more humbled I become. I think it's designed from the outset to work like that. And there's no more appropriate time than the Christmas season for us TO be humble. And it's also interesting to see how being humble and joyous seem to so often coincide. Again, was it planned that way? I tend to think so. We miss SO much in our perfunctory perusals of the Bible! Only with real study and questioning do we really, truly learn the big lessons within it. Sure wish I could do the last 60 or so years over again! "Too soon old, too late smart!" That's me to a "T."

[mozeppa]

read isaiah 53 the whole chapter describes the life of jesus....600 years before his birth.

[Ickisrulz]

People commit their whole lives toward understanding it, and not one yet, has truly "mastered" it all.

I guess that depends on what you mean by "master it." There are scholars and teachers that have a handle on the entire Bible the way other craftsmen master their crafts. This doesn't mean they are 100% correct on everything. It doesn't mean they still don't have things they are not sure on (but they can make educated guesses). It doesn't mean they have mastered becoming like Jesus. But when it comes to understanding the big picture, the important details and the purpose and intent of Scripture, they are masters.

I knew a teacher decades ago that if you quoted a Bible verse he could tell you where it was found and what came before and after it. He could tell you the historical context and what the author's purpose for writing was all from memory. He knew his way through the Bible and was a most excellent teacher. He was a master.

[Boaz]

In Luke it says ;

15 And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another, Let us now go even unto Bethlehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us.
16 And they came with haste, and found Mary, and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger.
17 And when they had seen it, they made known abroad the saying which was told them concerning this child.
18 And all they that heard it wondered at those things which were told them by the shepherds.
19 But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart.
20 And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things that they had heard and seen, as it was told unto them.
21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb


The shepherds came with haste , what is given of WHEN the wise men came ?

[Ickisrulz]

The shepherds came with haste , what is given of WHEN the wise men came ?

It would seem the wise men saw the star two years before they arrived in Jerusalem based on the information they gave to Herod. So at the very most it took them two years to get there from the time Jesus was born. We don't know if the star appeared at Jesus' birth or before it. Jesus and his family had located to Jerusalem by this time and were living in a house.

It would seem that the "star" was something other than what we think it is. It moved, was followed and then stopped over the house. The wise men rejoiced when they saw it. Maybe the star was an angel.

[Boaz]

They were in a ...'house' not a stable . Good observation . Thoughts on the 'star' are wide open , astronomers and science have tracked and advanced many theory's about the 'star', none hold true to the 'born in the stable' traditional thought . Personally (Boaz interpretation) the wise men came when Jesus was a toddler , not just born . The 'star' may have been an unrecorded event and only evident to the chosen of GOD to whom would have played a role . Many ways to rationalize the 'star' , I consider the 'star' a beacon . Exactly when ? Exactly where ? It's interesting but impossible to say the exact sequence of events in actual time .

[Blackwater]

Lots of good thoughts. I know I, like most I think, WANT to know "it all," but really, I think the Book has more meaning and value when there's a certain amount of mystery involved. And I doubt we, with our mortal minds, COULD understand the true nature of the star, even if an angel came and explained it to us. I suspect most of us (me in particular!) would simply become MORE confused, and that would turn us from the real and original purpose of the star, which IMO, was simply to mark the birth as something truly supernatural. Other than that, I've quit speculating or trying to understand it beyond that. At least mostly. Sometimes?

[Boaz]

Lol . questions should be sought . We will know soon enough . Show thy self approved . Means not understanding all . Means seeking .

[USMC87]

Ok I want to give a little of what I have studied this week so we can have more to ponder and talk about.The wise men are Magi as the bible calls them, This is the common name the Babylonians gave to those who practiced witchcraft. The songs that you here about 'We three kings' is nothing more than Roman Mythology, There is nowhere in the bible that three kings are mentioned. Here is an example of those calling on sorcerers to help them out, Remember in Numbers ch 22 Israel after coming out of Egypt was camped on the steeps of Moab and Balak was afraid of the number of people? He sent for the very best Sorcerer of his time- Balaam. Balak wanted Balaam to curse Israel so they would be easier to overrun, Instead of cursing all that came out of Balaam's mouth was blessing for Israel. Later on Balaam told them to send prostitutes to Israel because once they become morally defiled they would be easier to overrun. Guess what happened to Balaam and the Moabites later on? God ordered them all killed by the sword. When the Astrologers and sorcerers of Babylon saw a brand new star in the heavens they knew prophecy of a brand new King was being fulfilled. This new star or "His star" as scripture calls it made them travel a long distance and for a long time that only God knows.

Verse 2 says they came and worshipped Him, There is no indication of true Christian worship. Herod was scared of the 'New King' and wanted to kill Him, Why? Because all pagan Gods own ambitions can not stand with the demands of Christ.The prophecy of Christ being born in Bethlehem, The Magi confirmed that they saw His star all the way from Babylon comes to fulfillment right in front of Herod. All the clear evidence of Christ's coming in front of Herod and he does not repent, But instead plots to kill God's only Son. Is this not what all fallen, Depraved humans do? You present clear scripture to them and they turn the truth into a lie. Herod was totally depraved or in the 'spiritual graveyard' All Herod saw was his ability to be self sufficient. This is the exact scenario going on in the world today.

People celebrate Christmas but not in honor toward God, But instead they use Christmas as a way to show defiance toward God. Verse 7 says Herod wanted to know when the star appeared. Why did'nt Herod see the star and go to Christ? God only revealed Christ to whom he would, It is only those who God allowed to see the star. This all happens at a time when Caeser wanted a census of the people, So ther would be thousands of people in and around Jerusalem and Bethlehem registering to be taxed.

The people are "sent" to Bethlehem, This shows just how dead the Nation of Israel is at the time of Jesus's birth. The Magi came asking where the new king was and nobody knew, They was clueless about Christ.

I want to give a few contrast's before I close up here.
#1 Christ was born King of the Jews but was not born in a place of splendor.
#2 Though Jesus was born King of the Jews it was not fellow Jews who attended His coming, It was Gentiles.
#3 The high priests and leaders would not bother to worship Jesus, It was those who practiced witchcraft and sorcerers who did.
#4 God's word was ignored by the people it was gave to, But Astrologers followed a new star to come to Christ.
#5 The rulers from Jesus's own nation ignored Him, But representatives from other Countries were there.
#6 Jerusalem rejected it's Messiah but Babylon sent representatives.

I am so thankful to see all the comments and time all my Brethren put forth in God's word, Thank you all for taking part in this thread about our Lord and Saviors birth. God Bless and Amen!

[Boaz]

Thank you . much to digest and figure . Though ....thought is open . Go figure . Thought .

[Blackwater]

I love this kind of "trivia" test. Sure keeps things interesging! Especially now that my forgetter has become the only thing I have that's getting stronger. There's so much in the Bible that it's impossible NOT to miss so many, many of the finer points, that can give us greater and deeper insights into its true, full meaning. And a little arguing about the fine points is, if we'll let it be, edifying as well. Hearing others' views and the reasons for them, can only make us more understanding, even when we stick with our original view. At least we CAN see further than we did before these discussions.

Only modern man has ever accepted the theory that simple debates were "disrespectful" of others' views! Even when I might disagree with someone's views, I'm still edified by knowing more why I see things the way I do. And it also keeps me humble enough to consider opposing views, and if we didn't do that, how COULD we learn, really?

Anybody got more of this type of thing to offer?