traditional MLs ?

[Fly]

On another post GoexBuckhorn mentioned traditional MLs are less & less in popularity. He is spot on.
Many of us on this form are the ole school crowd. We were the ones growing up with Davey Crocket,
Daniel Boon, watch shows like the Alamo, & mountain men movies.

Young people today do not seem to be into history as we were. Westerns were made on a daily basis.
I wish we could find away to replenish the love of our hobby. Heck many of the young today do not
even know why the civil war was fought. So sad!

Fly:(

[Half Dog]

It's sad to hear the progress that Russia is making, in a new type of arms race, and our future (college students) are needing a safe space. Hopefully, I will be watching the result from above.

[tdoyka]

its hard to find a person that uses the flint and steel. everybody uses a inline these days. heck i've had one. i shot a several deer with it but it was more like a single shot rifle. put in pellets, put in a sabot with bullet and then put a shotgun primer. then you can look at the scope and go bang.

i used to love when flintlock deer season began. i liked it so much i almost got a 36 cal flintlock so i could shoot grey squirrels. but like most things, i didn't.

[charlie b]

Heck, Davy Crockett's dad probably said the same thing. Why Davy didn't use a bow and arrow instead of the modern flintlock.

Or Teddy Roosevelt's dad telling him a flintlock was so much better than the "assault rifle" Teddy hunted with.

IMHO, the ONLY reason there is any popularity of muzzleloaders is the special hunting seasons. If not for that, then we who use the old smoke poles would be even fewer, and we'd have even fewer choices of guns to buy.

[NSB]

Well stated charlie b. If it weren't for the special seasons finding a side lock muzzle loader shooter would be like looking for hen's teeth. Let's just be happy we have those seasons and can get out and hunt with what ever type of muzzle loader we have. It's still about the sport of hunting and being outdoors.

[Fly]

Quote (It's still about the sport of hunting and being outdoors.) No it not about hunting my friend. I got
into muzzle loading in the mid 1970,s. I did not get into it for hunting. I got into it to experience what it
was like to shoot these ole guns.

There are many more here that feel as I. Do you think the guys with the 1858 remey revolvers bought them to hunt
with. You have your place here also. But this sport is a lot more than just hunting. Muzzle loader deer season was born
from the days of the sport of traditional muzzle loader. Yes I have hunted with mind. But I really hunted, & not like many
today. Feeders, Camera's & so on. I have a guy that lives near by that has all that. He has a feed to his computer from
his camera to monitor the dear behind his house in the woods.

He kill a huge buck we have been feeding for years around here. Then went bragging to his buddys with the pictures of his kill.
Oh well this post was not about the hunters out there. It was addressed to the ole traditional love of black powder guys as me.

Fly

[RogerDat]

I have to agree with Fly on this one... and yet....
I did grow up with hero's such as Davy Crockett, Daniel Boone and a host of mountain men in books and movies. Cowboys too. My first handgun was a cap & ball in 36 caliber, my second many years later was a Ruger Vaquero in 45 Colt. Don't forget the untouchable or Dragnet. Brother and myself received Kentucky rifle and pistol sets for Christmas one year, used caps to fire cork balls. Best damn Christmas as a kid, outside of the one when I got a Timex watch.

I think the two, inline and side lock, are totally different groups with different needs and motivations. There are some people who fit in both groups, but there are some that only fit in one or the other. People that only own an inline, and then only to hunt with. And probably some that only have an interest in the "real deal" and may not even have any interest in hunting, or only want to hunt in period fashion, with period tools.

Me I'm fine with that, not everyone with a shotgun wants to shoot skeet, or doves. Takes all sorts and I would have a tough time picking between and inline with a scope and a flintlock. The first is practical and state of the art, the second is really cool. I would probably lean toward the flintlock but then that is what I grew up coveting and playing with. Not much different than I'm not a big fan of autoloader pistols, my hero's had wheel guns. BUT if we are talking a 1911 in 45 ACP just like they had on rat patrol and all those movies when I was a kid? That be different, bring it! Heck bring two!

[johnson1942]

i like side locks and i even have 2 inlines but my side locks make me feel good. i built a nice hawken type with brass tacks and all. it would make a mountain man feel real good. however it is a sleeper.the barrel is 50 cal 1/28 twist. octagon 1 inch diam 36 inches long. it shoots a 540 grain paperpatched bullet with 80 grains of powder driving the bullet. it will drop a buffalo and such easily. i made it look 1840/s but it is a powerful as a 50/90 sharps. best of both worlds. may go elk hunting with it some day.

[Fly]

Your right on Roger. I have always loved guns, but history also. Most that know me here know I make
my own black powder. I don't use the new fake stuff. It just not the same. But I also have many WW11
military rifles. I could care less about the plastic black guns. We are all different cats.

Fly

[Lead pot]

Fly.

Today is a different world then what you and I grew up in. I don't know you or your age but I'm 76 and history is not being taught in School like it was when I was in School. I asked my older Grand Daughters once a question about the Revolution of 1776 and I got a blank look when I asked what year it started she said we haven't studied much about the wars.
Just lately My 7 year old Grand Daughter asked me if I had something for show and tell for her to take to School and I said yes I have. She has watched me knap flint arrow points in the past and starting a fire with flint and steel so I made her up a display of points and a fire starting kit to take to School for her show and tell. When she asked her teacher if she can have show and tell the next day and the teacher asked what about she was told you cant bring those weapons to School. I was floored when I heard this.
I went to a one room grade School house till 8'th grade and rode a bike or horse back and I had my .22 single shot over the handlebars or in my lap, I rode bareback in the winter, and the rifle went in the close closet during School and a few of us shot rats at the dump after school. This **** now days going on just didn't happen that I know of when I was a kid.

Later in life in my teens and twenty's we had turkey shoots with M/L rifles, cutting balls on ax heads, shooting balls at the V or X with out cutting the lines and driving nails through boards with the barrels on a log. Over the log shoots. A lot of the guys and gals dressed in early clothing some not and we had a big round cast iron hog butcher pot over a fire with beans and what ever in the beans and this lasted way past dark with guys playing hill music.
Now days that's all gone and most are looking up at the grass roots. Kids pilling the triggers as fast as they can kicking up dust down range. Sometimes some will come over to see what I'm shooting and I always ask if they would like to get behind my front stuffer or the suppository rifle, Sharps, or Stevens. I always have a lesser caliber for the young to shoot if Dad gives the OK.
Things just are not the same this day and age.
Kurt

[RogerDat]

Yep who would want to watch the bad guy guard at the ranch watching to ambush the hero get hit in the head with a piece of Tupperware? He would be like ouch! why did you do that, and then raise the alarm, rap him with a nice sized Colt and he won't be back in action until the closing credits roll. Crockett at the Alamo using his rifle like a club would be one short scene if he hit them with a plastic stock! Rut Roe Eroy! Time out?

Sorry it just had to be said :mrgreen:

I may be nuts but I want three 1863 New Army cap and balls (one in a shoulder rig) plus a pirate sword and a blunder buss and anything in 45-70 and.... boys and toys :-D

[rfd]

for me it's a nostalgic throwback to simpler but tougher times of self sufficiency, and i find trad ml's to be beautiful, but deadly, art.

getting the young glock/ar15 dudes of today interested isn't hard at all with a properly conducted hands on show 'n' tell, more than a few get the bug, and the onus is on us far older dudes to spark their imaginations and desires.

[charlie b]

I own a muzzle loader because it is fun to shoot. That's it. And yes, I almost got an inline cause they were cheaper but I found my great plains instead.

It's not about history or anything like that for me. It's just fun. Same reason I shoot my M1 Garand or my AK. Why an M1? Cause my father-in-law gave it to me. Otherwise I'd probably still have one of my old bolt actions or TC Contender.

Back when I hunted I usually used one of my bolt guns. But, then it got too crowded during regular gun season so I got out the ML. When I stopped hunting I got rid of a lot of guns. Now I only keep what I like to shoot.

And, yes, if not for ML hunting seasons our availability of ML's would be far less than it is today. FYI, my first ML was a Rem Army that I bought as a kit in 1972 in Germany.

[Squeeze]

I started muzzleloading with traditionals. But now I mostly shoot inlines and modern style. I also shoot recurves, and now lately, in late season, when I have to wear 4 inches of clothes, I also shoot a crossbow. In truth, I kind of drifted away from trad muzzleloading, with probably the biggest reason being the attitude of the "purists" and their whole better than thou attitude at anything not rocklock. even when I was shooting sidelocks, I never wanted to dress the part, or worry about everything being "period correct". I am a stubborn bull headed type, raised to figure things out for myself, and take directions from others with a grain of salt, akin to everyone has an opinion. I figured most things out on my own, through trial and error, and making all those mistakes on my own to learn the how and why of lifes lessons. Like that typical rebellious teen, the quickest way to make me NOT do something, is to tell me I HAVE to do it this way. ALL those monotone repeats of "that's not a real gun" and so and so.. Just pisses me off enough to think. Well if THAT makes you mad, just watch me now. I was raised by Scandinavian immigrants, from a long line of commercial fishermen. Much of their daily routine, was keeping secrets, even from family. where were you coming from with that big haul? what, how why... was many times a question taught NOT to even ask. There was a kind of theory, that the life lessons learned the hard way, are the ones best remembered. and telling you daily, go there, set this way, may get you to bring in the fish today, but it wont make you the fisherman you need to be for tomorrow. There are always variables, and everything does not always go by a set of black and white rules. The two best, "top dog" captains in port may have totally different styles, but on any given day, either is likely to be the king.. And just because something may work the best for one captain, It is not automatically THE way for everyone all the time.
For a while, the main thing that drove me away from trad ML style, WAS the talk of This is the only way, that powderhorn aint right, you cant wear/ do THAT... THAT pissed me off, so in my way, I had to rebel, and prove to you/me/him that there were other ways.. or just to piss you off back by doing it with an ultra modern custom...
Now I just grab whatever happens to suit my fancy or mood on a particular day. BUT I do carry an inline much more often.

[pietro]

.

I'm a long-time (55+ years) hunter, and moved from sidelock hammer guns to the first modern inlines, to the later inlines, then underhammers, but finally to rocklocks & capguns.

IOW, I eventually returned to the Dark Side..........

One good thing about the recent unpopularity of traditional frontstuffers is that most of the the guns I now prefer are relatively less expensive than they once were.


.

[JWFilips]

Very Sad In deed!

[Good Cheer]

Quote (It's still about the sport of hunting and being outdoors.) No it not about hunting my friend. I got
into muzzle loading in the mid 1970,s. I did not get into it for hunting. I got into it to experience what it
was like to shoot these ole guns.

There are many more here that feel as I. Do you think the guys with the 1858 remey revolvers bought them to hunt
with. You have your place here also. But this sport is a lot more than just hunting. Muzzle loader deer season was born
from the days of the sport of traditional muzzle loader. Yes I have hunted with mind. But I really hunted, & not like many
today. Feeders, Camera's & so on. I have a guy that lives near by that has all that. He has a feed to his computer from
his camera to monitor the dear behind his house in the woods.

He kill a huge buck we have been feeding for years around here. Then went bragging to his buddys with the pictures of his kill.
Oh well this post was not about the hunters out there. It was addressed to the ole traditional love of black powder guys as me.

Fly

Oh my gosh. In Texas people got all worked up about how I could shoot deer off the back porch and now it's the same in Indiana. In Texas I used to tell them "well yes, but they have names". It's done got to be about the same way up here on the corn tundra. I mean good grief, how many times do you walk out on the deck and yell at the ten point to get the *%$# out of the bird feeder? And leave the grape vines and blue berry bushes alone *&%$#@!!
The funniest one has been the yearling that came up to the living room window and kept nosing the shepherds hook where the bird feed cake was supposed to be. The better 2/3's gets a chuckle about it because they won't eat the store stock feed. Oh no, they want to empty the bird feeders.

[Good Cheer]

About people having value in shooting traditional muzzleloaders, work on it every chance you get.
There's a big segment of the populace that loves side locks once introduced.

[Lead pot]

Or have a yearling come up to the bay window and head but the little yearling looking back at him. LOL.

[wingspar]

I’m no young thing either. I have not heard the words “Davy Crocket” for years. Doubt that I ever missed an episode. As for muzzleloading. I got interested in it a couple of years ago from watching hickock45 videos and only took possession of my first ML last week. Weather has prevented me from shooting it, and may very well prevent shooting it for a few weeks. It’s a TC Renegade side lock. I like the looks of the side locks and have no interest in the modern inline’s. Doubt I’ll try a flintlock either. Can’t wait to shoot it. I am a late bloomer at the age of 70 when it comes to muzzleloaders. Sure, I own an AR, AK and tons of other modern firearms. Steel, plastic, but it seems to me that a muzzleloader will force me to slow down (I’m doing that anyway cause I’m not 20 something anymore) and enjoy it. I do not hunt and if I did, I’d probably use a bolt gun.

[NSB]

Quote (It's still about the sport of hunting and being outdoors.) No it not about hunting my friend. I got
into muzzle loading in the mid 1970,s. I did not get into it for hunting. I got into it to experience what it
was like to shoot these ole guns.

There are many more here that feel as I. Do you think the guys with the 1858 remey revolvers bought them to hunt
with. You have your place here also. But this sport is a lot more than just hunting. Muzzle loader deer season was born
from the days of the sport of traditional muzzle loader. Yes I have hunted with mind. But I really hunted, & not like many
today. Feeders, Camera's & so on. I have a guy that lives near by that has all that. He has a feed to his computer from
his camera to monitor the dear behind his house in the woods.

He kill a huge buck we have been feeding for years around here. Then went bragging to his buddys with the pictures of his kill.
Oh well this post was not about the hunters out there. It was addressed to the ole traditional love of black powder guys as me.

Fly
I didn't realize you were elected to speak for so many other people. It's amazing how someone can use the implied "we" to support their own opinion. The OP mentioned muzzle loaders and was clearly speaking about rifles, not handguns. Davy Crockett never had a cap and ball revolver. Speak for yourself and I'll respect your opinion but refrain from the literal "we" when you try to add leverage to your comments. I've been shooting ML rifles for around fifty years and started with a flint lock. I like the old front stuffers, but the fact of the matter is that there are ten or twenty times as many inlines sold as there are side locks. The reason is still the special seasons.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

More like finding an inline without a separate ML season would be like hen's teeth. The special season must surely be almost the only reason to own one of those - unless they dodge the background check for those who need to?

If you look at the section for hand-made new muzzle-loaders on www.trackofthewolf.com (http://www.trackofthewolf.com) , it seems plain that people aren't buying those just for an extra season. Plenty of people would shoot muzzle-loaders because they are historically evocative and a technical challenge, just as they do shotguns. Yes, it is possible to improve on performance of the commonest types of muzzle-loading rifles - with small calibre, faster twist shallow rifling, lube-grooved or paper-patched elongated bullets and aperture sights. Do that and you leave the entirely modern inline with scarcely any advantage in performance, and with a rifle that satisfies anyone's percussion rifle regulations.

[swathdiver]

Slowing down, you got it Wing Spar! These old antiques allow one to savor each aspect of the sport, chew slowly and take our time. Until my buddy went home to be with the Lord, we would go to the range and maybe shoot 60 rounds between us in 3-4 hours. All the while the pop gun crowd would show up, blast off 50-100 rounds in 15 minutes and be gone. We make our own boolits, wads, lubricants, loading stands and other nic nacs including the knives and their sheathes for cutting the patches on our rifles. We talk, laugh, load, shoot, laugh and talk some more. And when those AR boys showed up blasting brass all over the place and endeavoring to burst my eardrums, I'd take the Walker out of the crate and run them off to another, less smokey area!

Our society in general is teaching its children to be narcississtic sociopaths, the "it's all about me" crowd. Instant gratification they demand and care little for planting, watering and seeing the fruits of their labor grow.

[rfd]

for me, its all about Black Powder (http://www.bpgang.com) - gimme any firearm that was used in 18th and 19th centuries and i'm in over my head, lock, stock and barrel. it's all good if it makes ya smile, whatever the machine, i just gravitate more towards flintlock rifles and muskets, sharps and rolling blocks, and cap 'n' ball pistols. that can't be so bad a thing, can it? well, ok - ymmv. :cool:

[Hickory]

Things just are not the same this day and age.
Kurt

What you are witnessing is the end of a great civilization and nation. Controlled by people who want to remove all threats of danger or harm that could befall a person. This is probably the most detrimental and destructive thing that could happen to a society and it's people. Because, they will grow up with no concept of danger or harm. No one can survive living a life of blissful ignorance and become anything other than sheep, and sheep make poor leaders and less than second rate people.
Mature and clear thinking people are sure of themselves, cautious, and skeptical of things they don't initially understand and they know right from wrong.
I really feel sorry for future generations and what they will have to endure. But, this is the America we have due to lack of prudence and vigilance.

[dave951]

Personally, I have zero interest in modern inlines with sabots and 209s but if that's what trips yer trigger, then have at it.

While I enjoy shooting modern firearms like ARs, I've come to the opinion that the older guns, read traditional types of muzzleloaders, require a whole different level of skill to shoot accurately. With modern stuff, very few of us make our own bullets or powder. We have lightning fast lock times and velocities and optics to bring the target in close. Take those things away and shooting fundamentals become critical, along with an intimate understanding of how to make ammo. Range estimation skills become way more important as does the ability to use kentucky windage. In short, if you're good with a traditional muzzleloader, odds on you're deadly with a modern gun. Are the traditionals easy to shoot, nope, but that's part of the fun, learning to be a better shot.


What I've seen with the spray n pray crowd is usually an abysmal lack of shooting skill. Maybe its because of the times we live in. Growing up in my AO, pretty much every one of us had a bb gun of some type. We shot them all the time. Tranitioning to a bolt 22 or single shot shotgun, we just extended skills learned earlier. Most new shooters today just get that sexy black gun and lots of ammo and head for the range. On a similar vein, I've spoken with some very competitve rifle shooters who've admitted they can barely hit a barn from inside when shooting offhand.


So get a good quality traditional muzzle loader and learn to shoot it accurately and well. It can't help but make you a better shot and you'll have a blast along the way.

[mooman76]

I'll be honest. I got into it years ago for the hunting advantage. It didn't take long though for me to really start getting into it and learning to appreciate the simplicity of some of the old ways that went with it.

[ShooterAZ]

I like them both, sidelocks & inlines. They both fill a particular niche for me. And yes, I'm in it for hunting and very much appreciate the special seasons. I use my 54 sidelock with open sights to hunt Elk in the thick timber, and the inline to hunt Antelope and Deer out in the open country. I don't give a hoot what the "purists" say, I just do my own thing. To each his own.

[sharps4590]

There are those with an historic, romantic bent and a desire to experience, learn and know how the firearms our forebears used worked and the true capabilities of those firearms. Some of us hunt with those firearms while others collect and/or collect and shoot those firearms.

There is also those who want to kill another deer the easiest way legally allowed or thoroughly enjoy learning the capabilities of modern, in-line, low pressure firearms. I am reluctant to use the term "black powder rifle" because probably 95% have never had black powder fired in them. Mostly they are used with a chemical compound imitation of black powder that produce pressures near to black powder and usually with less fouling rather than a mechanical mixture with its attendant issues to deal with. At any rate nothing to do with them has a sense of history or romance and, that's fine, they are not so marketed and most users could probably care less.

Aesthetically there is no comparison. Ballistically, on paper, the advantage goes to the in-line. Within their range limitations and the operator the difference is moot on game.

Me? As far as muzzleloaders I'll stay where I am, completely comfortable with my flintlocks and the one cap lock I own. Truthfully, if it came out post WWII it usually bores me out of my skull. I simply like old things better. For those who like "new and improved" better, more power to you, enjoy it as I enjoy my toys. The only other thing I would offer is don't be surprised if the newest, latest, greatest thing to come out was already done in 1919.

[dondiego]

I still have the Hopkins and Allen (Numrich Arms) .45 cal underhammer muzzle loader that my father bought me in 1966. I learned everything I could about shooting black powder over the years and am still at it to this day. The history was very important to me.

[Squeeze]

There are VERY few that really understand both camps. These type posts, on any forum, or crowd, usually showcase how little either side knows about the other.

[45workhorse]

I still have my first muzzle loader. A *CVA* Kentucky pistol that my dad bought for me in the 70's. Had to take to my history teacher to finish drilling the ramrod hole. He made custom muzzle loaders. Fellow by the name of Gary Brock if I remember correctly. Wish I had picked his brain.

[KCSO]

We are the ones who GOT you that special season all predicated on the fallibility of a TRADITIONAL muzzleloader and not those of us who shoot the old ones are swept aside so folks with front loading scoped cartridge guns can hunt an extra season. Grrrr!!!!

[waksupi]

We are the ones who GOT you that special season all predicated on the fallibility of a TRADITIONAL muzzleloader and not those of us who shoot the old ones are swept aside so folks with front loading scoped cartridge guns can hunt an extra season. Grrrr!!!!

The old time ML shooters here in Montana lobbied long and loud against a ML season, because of that type of abuse. There are some areas that are ML and shotgun because of population, but aside from that, no separate season. An early season would have been absolute murder on the bull elk.

[charlie b]

We are the ones who GOT you that special season all predicated on the fallibility of a TRADITIONAL muzzleloader and not those of us who shoot the old ones are swept aside so folks with front loading scoped cartridge guns can hunt an extra season. Grrrr!!!!

Should have specified flintlocks and iron sights. Easy to put in the law. Some states have very specific rules about the projectiles too. I wish NM law was more restrictive.

OTOH it means "traditional" ML's cost less on the used rack. Good for me :)

[JeffinNZ]

If you look through the old shooting magazines you can see peaks and troughs of interest in certain things. MLing appears to have resurfaced in the 70's after a low patch. Cast bullets saw lots of write up in the 50-60's magazines but less in the 70-80s from what I have seen. Someone will rediscover traditional muzzleloaders in the future also. Just like archery is on the up with the interest in movies/books like 'The Hunger Games'.

[Hanshi]

I grew up in the 1940s & 50s and today is nothing like it was back then. History is no longer taught; and these schools with their "zero intelligence" policies forbid learning our past. This is why we are still 29th or so down the list on education. Even many third world countries are way ahead of us. And if any history at all is mentioned, it's "revised" - I always thought "history" was simply "what it is". Obviously history has changed; sorry about that, Dr. Einstein.

[sharps4590]

History used to be written by the victors....now it is revised by the politically correct.

[charlie b]

History is written by many people. Different versions are accepted as fact based on a lot of things. No one version is completely correct and from what I have learned over the years, the real story is not very pretty.

We can cry about education but grandparents have complained about new education as long as I can remember.

[OverMax]

They won't know what they missed and likely wouldn't care even if they did. As far a tutoring a young stranger all that I know. " I don't think so as I no longer have the ambition to try nor they to listen"

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I still have my first muzzle loader. A *CVA* Kentucky pistol that my dad bought for me in the 70's. Had to take to my history teacher to finish drilling the ramrod hole. He made custom muzzle loaders. Fellow by the name of Gary Brock if I remember correctly. Wish I had picked his brain.

182470


For those you have started wondering, did he tell you anything like this? The general rule with holes is that it is better to do the inside first, and then put the outside around it.

182469

This one doesn't have any hammers. But if I could afford to go back to the heirs of George Gibbs and say "Make me another, please," they would do it exactly the same way a hundred and twenty years later. For nothing inline gives you a safer or more durable gun, or a faster lock time. Is there something else?

[Squeeze]

everyone thinks the inline was invented in 1985. Allens inline action was available since the early 60's and there are many examples dating to the 1700's
182471 182472 from munich firearm museum, these and several more are pre 1800 inline actions

[sharps4590]

That's a fact squeeze. They also were never, even remotely, commonly used.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

The problem are traditional forums IMO. You get a group that are hardcore snobs and treat new members looking for help, like ****. Seen it done of 2 of the more well known traditional forums and then those new guys leave and find something else or get help elsewhere. Plenty of young shooters, especially on facebook. They need some guidance to help set them in the right, but at times, snobs can really ruin a new guy with poor treatment or IMO, knowledge overload where someone helping completely overloads a post and the guy goes...well, I can't exactly say lol.

[warboar_21]

My neighbor is responsible for my love of traditional muzzleloaders. He took me to a Rendezvous and while there let me shoot his T/C Hawken in 54 cal. I was hooked from then on.
I moved away from the area and when I was old enough to buy a muzzleloader I bought a .50 cal CVA Hawken since I couldn't afford the T/C at the time. I used it to hunt for 3 seasons in Indiana before I moved and joined the Army. Two small bucks fell to it with patched round balls and pyrodex.

When people talk about muzzleloaders the side lock is the only thing that comes to mind. Most are referring to the inlines but I have a hard time calling them muzzleloaders.

To each their own.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

[dtknowles]

More like finding an inline without a separate ML season would be like hen's teeth. The special season must surely be almost the only reason to own one of those - unless they dodge the background check for those who need to?

If you look at the section for hand-made new muzzle-loaders on www.trackofthewolf.com (http://www.trackofthewolf.com) , it seems plain that people aren't buying those just for an extra season. Plenty of people would shoot muzzle-loaders because they are historically evocative and a technical challenge, just as they do shotguns. Yes, it is possible to improve on performance of the commonest types of muzzle-loading rifles - with small calibre, faster twist shallow rifling, lube-grooved or paper-patched elongated bullets and aperture sights. Do that and you leave the entirely modern inline with scarcely any advantage in performance, and with a rifle that satisfies anyone's percussion rifle regulations.

I am sure my in-line was built because of the special seasons but I don't hunt but like shooting it and experimenting. I shoot smokeless with saboted cast bullets but I have shot REAL's in it too. Some people just like to shoot and this gun saves time at the reloading bench since you don't have to deal with brass, priming is easier, ramming the bullet home is a little more trouble than seating bullets. I don't have to size and lube the bullets.

I have a Hawken but it is hanging over the fire place and I have a New Englander and it get shot some but the 10ML doesn't need the black powder clean up.

In-lines side locks reasons, lots of reasons to shoot what ever you want.

Tim

[dtknowles]

We are the ones who GOT you that special season all predicated on the fallibility of a TRADITIONAL muzzleloader and not those of us who shoot the old ones are swept aside so folks with front loading scoped cartridge guns can hunt an extra season. Grrrr!!!!

Some states let you use a single shot cartridge rifle in the Primitive Season.

Tim

[Hickory]

Some states let you use a single shot cartridge rifle in the Primitive Season.

Tim
What states are those?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

everyone thinks the inline was invented in 1985. Allens inline action was available since the early 60's and there are many examples dating to the 1700's
182471 182472 from munich firearm museum, these and several more are pre 1800 inline actions


Yes, that type of inline flintlock probably dates from the early eighteenth century, though not as early as the breechloader. I have seen several pictures, and the one below may be the example which used to be in the Tower of London, and is probably now in the Royal Armouries in Leeds. A lot of high quality work went into some and even double-barrelled versions are known. The design appears to be of central European origin, and the only one I have seen named was by Wenceslas Morawek. There were various Moraveks in the Bohemian arms industry, and the patent system, if one existed, was so loose that names don't prove much.


182587

The great thing about this design was that it was supposed to be waterproof. With a little grease, or greased tissue if it didn't impede the frizzen too much, it may really have been. I am not sure how they made the barrel rigidly attached and yet permitted access to the ring frizzen spring, which would surely have needed to be grease-packed. It would have been difficult to clean the mechanism or sharpen up the flint. It is possible that it used shaped pyrites, like the wheel-lock.

The position of the flash would have been undesirable. A really efficient flintlock will work upside down, and if this one could be made really efficient, an upside down one would surely have been more comfortable to use.

If they had caught on, I doubt if they would have been more expensive to make than a conventional flintlock. Clearly there were cons and pros. To say they were common would be more than a fact squeeze. But they weren't by any means a freak which found no acceptance.

[dtknowles]

What states are those?

Mississippi "expanding the definition of primitive weapons. In the fall of 2005, a new class of firearms was deemed "primitive" that for the first time included single-shot, breech-loading rifles with exposed hammers that could utilize metallic cartridge, primer-driven, smokeless ammunition. They just had to be .38 caliber or larger."

Louisiana
"Single Shot Breechloading Rifles which are NOT Primitive Weapons:


Ruger Number 1 and Number 3 (no exposed hammer)
Thompson Center Contender or Encore Carbines (designed after 1900)
Mossberg SSi Single Shot Rifle (no exposed hammer and designed after 1900)

Single Shot Breechloading Rifles which are Primitive Weapons:


Sharps rifles or replicas
Remington Rollingblock rifles or replicas
Ballard rifles
Maynard rifles or carbines
Burnside carbines
Frank Wesson rifles
Farrow rifles
Remington Hepburn rifles
M1873 – 1888 Springfield (Trapdoor) Rifles and Carbines and replicas
Snider (British) rifles or replicas
Wesson & Harrington 1871 Rifles
New England Firearms or Harrington & Richardson Handi Rifles in caliber .38 or larger
Winchester M1885 Hi Wall or Lo Wall rifles or replicas (Also Browning B78 or 1885) .38 or larger
Knight KP-1 in caliber .38 or larger
CVA Optima Elite in caliber .38 or larger
Traditions Pursuit break-open single shot in .38 caliber or larger


I know about these because they are local to me but there might be others.

Tim

[rfd]

wow, i thought i'd seen it all ... a breech load metallic cartridge rifle considered a "primitive weapon". imagine comparing a classic trad .50 flintlock muzzleloading rifle to a '74 sharps .45-70 #1 sporter. wow. geez, i wonder if an exposed hammer RPG will be added to the "primitive" list next? ya think?

[charlie b]

It all depends on what the people in your state lobby for with the game and fish department. Some states still require flintlock and open sights (PA and WA?). Some states call it primitive, some just say muzzleloading.

If you want your state rules changed then go do it.

I don't hunt now days so don't care what it says. I still like all my guns though :)

[rfd]

as firearm owners and users, whether we gun hunt or not, maybe we should care what the state and fed hunting rules are all about. there always seems to be peripheral effects of most legislation ...

[FergusonTO35]

Mebbe this sounds weird, but when I went inline I still intentionally kept things on the low tech side. I shoot an NEF Huntsman .50. It wears sights, no scope. I use Triple 7 loose powder and Lee REAL boolits that I cast. Other than the T7 all of this could have been invented in the 1800's. Scopes, sabots, pellet powder, jacketed bullets I will not use. Not only because they are more high tech than I am willing to go, but because a .50 caliber rifle doesn't need them!

[Swamp Fox]

Guess I'm the young guy in the crowd. I'm not yet 40 but have been enjoying and hunting with traditional muzzleloader for about 10 years now. My grandfather was a real history and gun lover, and had a decent collection of original and reporduction stuff, mostly civil war but some earlier as well. It gave me an appreciation for them, but I never took off shooting them until I got a muzzleloader in a package gun deal from a coworker. I guess it brought back a lot of memories. I enjoy shooting them, and prefer to hunt with one, both for the challenge and the experience of learning what it was like for our ancestors. I aspire to get a flintlock someday, but haven't had the opportunity and money line up yet. Im about the only one my age I know that uses something other than an inline to extend their hunting season. I have shared it with several, maybe they will take it up later.

All that to say this: Don't give up on the young guys yet, muzzleoading is more of an interest that comes with age. I've always been interested in history, others still haven't discovered it. Or if I'm wrong I'm going to buy lots of really nice rifles for cheap.

[rfd]

get y'all some trad ml vintage stoke of yesteryear (with a bit o' bpcr in there as well :) )... www.bpgang.com/images.html 8-)

[slim1836]

Never had an inline but have a dozen side locks ranging from .45 to .58 cal. Some are cap locks, some are flinters, some pistols, some rifles. Love them all and will probably never own an inline. Still looking for a .32 cal. squirrel rifle at a bargain.

I still start fires with flint and steel when camping, throw hawks and knives, have long bows, and never owned a compound bow.

Guess I'm old school, each to their own.

Slim

[bignut]

Well said, I prefer some guns and styles over others, but don't tell me I have to have certain powders, cloths, etc.. . I love history and like to see period stuff, but have neither time, money, nor availability for all these gadgets and fuferaw. I'll do what pleases me, and others should do the same.

[sharps4590]

rfd I enjoyed the pictures of those paintings. In one the water looked almost as if I was standing next to a creek here in the Ozarks looking into it.

If you want to know of a really, really goofy season you should check into what Missouri Dept. of Conservation did to what used to be "muzzleloading season". With a method of reasoning yet to be determined by anyone with a lick of sense about firearms they decided to include handguns such as the Contender, scoped or not, firing rifle cartridges, revolvers and even those short things built on the AK are legal. Of course they had to change the name so it's now called "Alternative Season". Oddly black powder cartridge rifles are not allowed but you can use an in-line with sabot's that have identical ballistics....or a Contender in 45-70 loaded to the max. of the handgun. Soooo.....lemme see here.....I can use a smokeless powder cartridge in a modern handgun with a scope that generates greater ballistics than a 45-70 loaded with the standard 405 gr. bullet and between 60 and 65 grs. of black but I can't use the 45-70 so loaded? Ah well....no one has EVER accused MDC of having thimble full of sense about ballistics.

[Fly]

rfd I enjoyed the pictures of those paintings. In one the water looked almost as if I was standing next to a creek here in the Ozarks looking into it.

If you want to know of a really, really goofy season you should check into what Missouri Dept. of Conservation did to what used to be "muzzleloading season". With a method of reasoning yet to be determined by anyone with a lick of sense about firearms they decided to include handguns such as the Contender, scoped or not, firing rifle cartridges, revolvers and even those short things built on the AK are legal. Of course they had to change the name so it's now called "Alternative Season". Oddly black powder cartridge rifles are not allowed but you can use an in-line with sabot's that have identical ballistics....or a Contender in 45-70 loaded to the max. of the handgun. Soooo.....lemme see here.....I can use a smokeless powder cartridge in a modern handgun with a scope that generates greater ballistics than a 45-70 loaded with the standard 405 gr. bullet and between 60 and 65 grs. of black but I can't use the 45-70 so loaded? Ah well....no one has EVER accused MDC of having thimble full of sense about ballistics.

Wow now that makes no sense. Maybe use a modern rifle if you shoot a deer standing on your head, makes as much sense.

Geeeeezzzzzzzzzzz Fly