Finished (?) my PID control

[scotner]

I guess my wife is right. I am a control freak. Any way, when I saw the plans for this I had to build one. I had some of the components on hand and I thought this would be a cheap build. Turns out it will dollar you to death. You can't order one or two of anything and shipping will eat you up.

Most of the components are garden variety choices as shown in other posts here. I mounted the T/C on a small steel bracket and added a magnet to each end. Then powder coated the bracket to be sure that the magnets came off with the bracket instead of sticking to the lead pot.

One word of advice: Start with a larger enclosure. I used this one because I had it from a previous planned project. It was a very tight fit getting everything in there. That leads me to my second problem: Getting the cabinet closed after wiring it. Some of the wiring has to go to the bottom half. I had some 16 gauge hookup wire that I planned to use for the control wiring. It was way too stiff to fold over into place easily. A few more dollars and a few days later the super flexible 16 gauge wire showed up from Amazon and I completed the project. I haven't tried it out yet. Waiting on a mold to come in.

[Phlier]

Nicely done!

I just finished my PID build literally five minutes ago. Barely got done doing the ice water temperature check with it. And yeah, I agree, it'll nickel and dime you to death.

I really like your thermocouple holder idea. Think I might have to "borrow" it.

[RP]

Self control guys lol I too built my own not to save money but I wanted too, Added a few things then some more well you know how that goes. So I ended up with a duel PID with volt and amp meters and some led lights along with lighted switches. Cost twice what I could have one made and sent to me lol but I had fun, Still working on my brass annealing machine looks like that is going to cost me too.
Nice job BTW looks good.

[bstone5]

Built two so far, one is for my Master Caster and the other is for a stainless steel long tank for parkising gun parts. A stainless steel heating element for a water heater was used to heat the fluid, this heater was 220 volt and this PID will work on both 110 and 220 loads.
Not too cheap to build but both work very well. The PID for the tank was assembled in a 50 caliber ammo can with various electrical plugs installed on the sides of the ammo can.

[scotner]

<The PID for the tank was assembled in a 50 caliber ammo can with various electrical plugs installed on the sides of the ammo can.>


Ammo cans are tough to cut for components. Aluminum project boxes are much easier. The ammo cans make a nice build if you are willing to put the time and effort into them.

[scotner]

Nicely done!

I just finished my PID build literally five minutes ago. Barely got done doing the ice water temperature check with it. And yeah, I agree, it'll nickel and dime you to death.

I really like your thermocouple holder idea. Think I might have to "borrow" it.

Thanks. I think the T/C holder was an old piece of DIN rail that I found while rumaging around in the shop. I wanted to easily remove the T/C if necessary to get easier access to the pot.

[scotner]

Self control guys lol I too built my own not to save money but I wanted too, Added a few things then some more well you know how that goes. So I ended up with a duel PID with volt and amp meters and some led lights along with lighted switches. Cost twice what I could have one made and sent to me lol but I had fun, Still working on my brass annealing machine looks like that is going to cost me too.
Nice job BTW looks good.

Thanks. I like building projects like this. Since cooler weather is here it is time to find something indoors to keep me occupied. When my 300 BLK mold gets here I will heat up the shop and cast some bullets.

[lightman]

Thats a nice looking build. Its funny how those nickels and dimes add up so quickly!

[georgerkahn]

Congratulations on what indeed appears to be a stellar construction project! Hoping this to be a friendly question, I do not see a fuse -- I have 3AG Bus style fuses in my three PIDs?. Perhaps I'm a bit on the "OCD" (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) side -- but several years back I had a SCR-controlled battery charger I had assembled (for 12V boat trolling motor battery) start emitting FLAMES, and it was surely a blessing both that I was present when this began, and -- it was a very bright sunny day -- I actually saw the flames. As I wrote -- no smoke! (It turns out the pre-owned transformer I bought had failed -- shorted?) I replaced the transformer, SCR, a couple of resistors, and several wires who's insulation had burnt off -- installed a fuse (3amp) -- and kind of made the executive decision to never construct another electronic project without one.
Perhaps you have one or two (MY PIDs have TWO: one for the 110VAC input, and a second for the OUTPUT to pot) inside the enclosure.
Again, I hope to not be offensive here; I did not see fuse-holders, recalled my battery charger incident, and elected to write this....perhaps (I hope) a positive suggestions should fuses not be part of your circuitry.
BEST!
geo

[Phlier]

Congratulations on what indeed appears to be a stellar construction project! Hoping this to be a friendly question, I do not see a fuse -- I have 3AG Bus style fuses in my three PIDs?. Perhaps I'm a bit on the "OCD" (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) side -- but several years back I had a SCR-controlled battery charger I had assembled (for 12V boat trolling motor battery) start emitting FLAMES, and it was surely a blessing both that I was present when this began, and -- it was a very bright sunny day -- I actually saw the flames. As I wrote -- no smoke! (It turns out the pre-owned transformer I bought had failed -- shorted?) I replaced the transformer, SCR, a couple of resistors, and several wires who's insulation had burnt off -- installed a fuse (3amp) -- and kind of made the executive decision to never construct another electronic project without one.
Perhaps you have one or two (MY PIDs have TWO: one for the 110VAC input, and a second for the OUTPUT to pot) inside the enclosure.
Again, I hope to not be offensive here; I did not see fuse-holders, recalled my battery charger incident, and elected to write this....perhaps (I hope) a positive suggestions should fuses not be part of your circuitry.
BEST!
geo


....I'm going to use 16AWG wire for the load carrying lines. Are you guys using an inline fuse, and if so, what amperage (US 120V)?

I used #14 for mine. I wouldn't bother with the inline fuse either.

Looking around the 'net for PID info, one guy somewhere summed it up like this... the worst thing that can happen is your SSR fails, and fails to a "circuit closed" condition. If that happens, you are now in exactly the same situation as if you had the pot plugged directly into the wall; your PID is now nothing more than an expensive extension cord from the wall outlet.

[scotner]

I considered adding fuses to the build but I was concerned with the flimsy nature of the panel mount holders and did not want to get into splices inside the box. With all solid state components I tend to lean toward the reasoning expressed by Phlier above. For this reason the line voltage supplied to the SSR and out to the controlled device is a direct connection and does not go through the rocker switch. This is the way industrial machinery is built. Turning off the control circuit does not disconnect line voltage.

The reason for the (?) after "finished" in the title of my post is because I am waiting on a combination panel light/buzzer to come in. I plan to mount that where the rocker switch is and move the rocker switch underneath the box. I will use the alarm to alert me to high temperature. If the high temp alarm goes off and the white output light is still lit, then either the PID or the SSR has failed closed. In either event the control on the lead furnace will be set to a maximum safety cutoff level.

Thanks for the suggestions. Always interested in looking at alternatives.

[dragon813gt]

I would not hook up the buzzer. That would really annoy me. I have high and low alarms set on mine. They turn on a blue light for low and red light for high. That's all the warning I want. The pot is going to over/under shoot depending on how full it is.

[scotner]

Yes, i am still contemplating that feature. If I do install it there will certainly be a "silence" switch for it. I realize that the temp will overshoot but I think I could set the alarm high enough to avoid nuisance alarms. Thanks for the info.

[Phlier]

Yup, think I'm going to have to put a "temp to cold to cast" low temp light, and a "lead to hot" light as well. Darn it, I thought I was done messing around with it.

[Mike W1]

Like my toys as well as anyone and put a couple on the first one but realistically you're gonna be a couple of feet from the unit and there's this display of the temperature glaring at you. I don't bother setting the alarms anymore and sure as heck wouldn't care to have a buzzer go off.

[Yodogsandman]

Like my toys as well as anyone and put a couple on the first one but realistically you're gonna be a couple of feet from the unit and there's this display of the temperature glaring at you. I don't bother setting the alarms anymore and sure as heck wouldn't care to have a buzzer go off.

Ditto!

[scotner]

Like I said, it was just a thought. It is ready to use right now (after programming) so I will try it as is and see what it does. Right now I am waiting on the 300 BLK mold.

[georgerkahn]

I understand/respect your election to not have built in fuses -- diffrnt' strokes, eh? I know *I* wouldn't be without that extra margin of safety, based upon battery charger incident I mentioned. Re "lights & buzzers", I have an LED lamp in parallel with the PID output which lets me know when the pot's element is being supplied electricity to warm it without annoying me. Yes, I originally had/replaced a Mallory Sona-lert, finding the tone was...well...more annoying than beneficial. For me: the LED lamp works! I've hopefully uploaded a photo of my casting bench, and you can see it at right of the fans.
BEST!
geo182364

[scotner]

That is WAY too neat to be a casting outfit. You sure it is not a deep fryer of some kind? Nice looking outfit.

[georgerkahn]

(Truth is, this is what it looked like when I assembled it a couple of years ago. You should see it now -- MAYBE NOT! :-D -- Seriously, other than an inverted small pot over hot plate which makes an oven for mould warming -- I even have a thermometer in it to indicate air temp in this "oven" -- and quite a few spatters and stains, it is essentially the same. Thank you for compliments! I had all my stuff in Rubbermade boxes for too many years, and one day said to myself, "Why not put all on a wheeled cart?" I have an old oil-cloth table cloth I use as a cover in garage, and only other addition was been a surplus clamp-on lamp I didn't want to throw out, so fastened to this table. Bion, for cloudy days and evening dusk, that has been beneficial!
geo)

[Bob in St. Louis]

I love this thread.

[Mike W1]

I love this thread.

Me too! That casting area of mine keeps growing and growing. Just had to add 3 PID units, a hot plate, Puck lights that really light things up. Then it was TC's to read mold temperatures, and a cut-off propane tank "smelter". Funny thing is I don't seem to be any more shooting than before! One thing all 3 units have is a Neon showing when main power is on and also one showing power when it goes to the pots or hot plate. I cast inside but built a "insulated hut" for the mold on the hot plate but found no need or advantage of having it in the way. Maybe out in the breeze it'd help a bit.
Stocked the wood box with plans to cast a bit tomorrow. Might take a pix of the setup at present.

[dragon813gt]

Like my toys as well as anyone and put a couple on the first one but realistically you're gonna be a couple of feet from the unit and there's this display of the temperature glaring at you. I don't bother setting the alarms anymore and sure as heck wouldn't care to have a buzzer go off.

Mine sits to the side of the pot. When focusing on casting I don't turn my head from the pot. So I can't see the numbers. The lights, there is a green one for when it's at the correct temp, are easily visible. They aren't needed. But come in handy for me.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa39/dragon813gt/TimeToMakeAmmo/AE03B300-F766-46B4-A5EC-9E7E05F88A8D-3097-000002C2C72BABB5_zps00483a9d.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/dragon813gt/media/TimeToMakeAmmo/AE03B300-F766-46B4-A5EC-9E7E05F88A8D-3097-000002C2C72BABB5_zps00483a9d.jpg.html)

[Phlier]

I understand/respect your election to not have built in fuses -- diffrnt' strokes, eh? I know *I* wouldn't be without that extra margin of safety, based upon battery charger incident I mentioned. Re "lights & buzzers", I have an LED lamp in parallel with the PID output which lets me know when the pot's element is being supplied electricity to warm it without annoying me. Yes, I originally had/replaced a Mallory Sona-lert, finding the tone was...well...more annoying than beneficial. For me: the LED lamp works! I've hopefully uploaded a photo of my casting bench, and you can see it at right of the fans.
BEST!
geo182364

Very nice setup!

I can certainly understand wanting to take every precaution after having such an experience with the battery charger.

But comparing your experience with the battery charger to a PID is a bit apples/oranges...

If you were concerned that the load on the PID would exceed the max amount you're willing to put through it (in other words, if the SSR failed closed), then yes, a fuse would be important to have. But the PID itself is internally protected (overheat resettable breaker and current protections), and the analogy of having it be nothing more than an expensive extension cord if the very worst scenario actually happened (and the very worst scenario is, indeed, an SSR failed shut) is correct. If you would normally attach your melting furnace to an extension cord that had an inline fuse in it, then yes, a fuse would be suitable for your PID build.

Regardless, it never hurts to always err on the safe side, and if adding a fuse makes you more comfortable, then by all means add one.
But it's important to understand that for this build, this use, this situation in it's whole... it is not an absolute you-gotta-have-it to be safe thing to have.

[Phlier]

Mine sits to the side of the pot. When focusing on casting I don't turn my head from the pot. So I can't see the numbers. The lights, there is a green one for when it's at the correct temp, are easily visible. They aren't needed. But come in handy for me.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa39/dragon813gt/TimeToMakeAmmo/AE03B300-F766-46B4-A5EC-9E7E05F88A8D-3097-000002C2C72BABB5_zps00483a9d.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/dragon813gt/media/TimeToMakeAmmo/AE03B300-F766-46B4-A5EC-9E7E05F88A8D-3097-000002C2C72BABB5_zps00483a9d.jpg.html)

Love the way you've done your PID box. That's the exact light setup I'd like to do.

Your mold warmer is very well done, too. I'd really like to have that exact hot plate. Would you happen to know the make/model of it?

I'll be ordering the parts for a second PID to control the mold warmer (hot plate) on Monday, as well as the mold thermocouple parts from NOE. Just hope I can avoid pulling the trigger on a new mold while I'm ordering parts from NOE's web site. That place is like a candy store.

[dragon813gt]

I did not put the PID together. At the time a member who's now banned was making them for very little over the cost of components. It was worth the few extra bucks to have it show up at my house complete and ready to plug in. The PID was even tuned. After running AT it changed the values very little.

I don't know the make and model of the hot plate. I bought it at Walmart. They probably sell a newer version of it at this point.

[Phlier]

I did not put the PID together. At the time a member who's now banned was making them for very little over the cost of components. It was worth the few extra bucks to have it show up at my house complete and ready to plug in. The PID was even tuned. After running AT it changed the values very little.

I don't know the make and model of the hot plate. I bought it at Walmart. They probably sell a newer version of it at this point.

Ah, yes... the "he who shall not be named" situation. I'm a little familiar with it, as I've read darn near every PID related post on this forum... yeah... hours and hours of reading PID posts. Looks like he built a very nice unit.

I'll go check out Walmart's web site right now. Thanks!

[scotner]

Very nice setup!

I can certainly understand wanting to take every precaution after having such an experience with the battery charger.

But comparing your experience with the battery charger to a PID is a bit apples/oranges...

If you were concerned that the load on the PID would exceed the max amount you're willing to put through it (in other words, if the SSR failed closed), then yes, a fuse would be important to have. But the PID itself is internally protected (overheat resettable breaker and current protections), and the analogy of having it be nothing more than an expensive extension cord if the very worst scenario actually happened (and the very worst scenario is, indeed, an SSR failed shut) is correct. If you would normally attach your melting furnace to an extension cord that had an inline fuse in it, then yes, a fuse would be suitable for your PID build.

Regardless, it never hurts to always err on the safe side, and if adding a fuse makes you more comfortable, then by all means add one.
But it's important to understand that for this build, this use, this situation in it's whole... it is not an absolute you-gotta-have-it to be safe thing to have.

That pretty well sums up my thinking on the fuses. If adding a couple of fuses gives you a warm fuzzy feeling then go for it. I agree that having the SSR fail closed is probably the most likely failure here. That is why I expect to let the PID control the temp without my having to constantly monitor it. Setting the thermostat on the pot at say 50 to 100 degrees above the highest expected temp would prevent a runaway and an audible alarm would alert you to a malfunction. Just depends on what you want to do with it.

Thanks for everyone's input. These controllers are really pretty neat for the money and offer a lot of options.

[Mike W1]

This is how I'm presently setup. Pads for catching bullets to the left of pots. Never could figure out a good way to have them in front of the pots but actually there's hardly any twisting involved in dropping them there. 2 chutes so I can alternate molds if desired and removable boxes on front to catch the sprues. Have puck lights mounted both sides and above the pot and they really help. Had no luck trying to take photos to show the improvement though. 2 PID's on upper right for the pots and upper left has 1 for the hot plate. Wooden structure left of pots has a switched cooling fan and shelf to lay molds on
My hot plates a 1000w Elite brand with solid stop though I did cut a 1/4" alluminum circle for the op. Use an ingot with attached broomstick handle to ensure mold makes a good flat contact. 380° on the PID gets the mold to 300-310° in the time period to get the pots up to temperature. Think the hotplate I bid for on ebay and paid about $12.
http://i.imgur.com/IRbFhqa.jpg

[scotner]

Nice setup. The hot plate will be the next item I plan to add. I will watch eBay and the local Goodwill stores. I bought my P/C toaster oven at Goodwill for $7.

[Echo]

Reminds me of my 'Ham' days, when I built a Grounded Grid Linear for my HX-50 Exciter. Dual 811's in parallel, 2,000 V B+ - and the first time I turned it on, the plates blushed a little. Hmm, I thought, probably just needs a little drive to quiet things down. "Test", and Bonk, there went the fuse. I put a 2D21 thyratron tube wired up as a diode in the center tap of the filament transformer, putting 4.5 volts of regulated bias on the tubes, and it worked like a charm. Peaked @ 400 mils, and good bow-ties...

[Bob in St. Louis]

Nice set-up Mike, I'm envious!
Based on this thread, it looks like really need to step up my game.
Need to buy a PID or two (but first need to know what PID stands for, other than temp control).
Then I need to dedicate a corner of the basement with exhaust fans and build a bench.
After all that, I might just begin to see some of the savings I'll get from "rolling my own".

[Bob in St. Louis]

The power of Google.
Silly me, I was thinking a PID was like a POT in an audio system. haha
---------------------
A proportional–integral–derivative controller (PID controller) is a control loop feedback mechanism (controller) commonly used in industrial control systems.

[scotner]

Nice set-up Mike, I'm envious!
Based on this thread, it looks like really need to step up my game.
Need to buy a PID or two (but first need to know what PID stands for, other than temp control).
Then I need to dedicate a corner of the basement with exhaust fans and build a bench.
After all that, I might just begin to see some of the savings I'll get from "rolling my own".Yeah, well you don't want to know what came up the first time I typed PID into Google.

[Mike W1]

Nice set-up Mike, I'm envious!
Based on this thread, it looks like really need to step up my game.
Need to buy a PID or two (but first need to know what PID stands for, other than temp control).
Then I need to dedicate a corner of the basement with exhaust fans and build a bench.
After all that, I might just begin to see some of the savings I'll get from "rolling my own".

This hobby kind of reminds me when I bought my first computer thinking it'd save me time and money doing my taxes.
4 computers later I don't think I came out ahead.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Remember when they told us that computers would save paper?

[Glassman66]

Ah, yes... the "he who shall not be named" situation. I'm a little familiar with it, as I've read darn near every PID related post on this forum... yeah... hours and hours of reading PID posts. Looks like he built a very nice unit.

I'll go check out Walmart's web site right now. Thanks!



Could anyone point me to someone selling complete PID's? Would like one, just don't want to build it right now.






Randy

[Bob in St. Louis]

^^^^ Either that, or... a link to a good know "kit", or recipe for building one.
I've got time to build one, but lack the knowledge to design it myself.
(Would even to be willing to build one for somebody else in trade for labor/parts)

[Phlier]

Could anyone point me to someone selling complete PID's? Would like one, just don't want to build it right now.






Randy


^^^^ Either that, or... a link to a good know "kit", or recipe for building one.
I've got time to build one, but lack the knowledge to design it myself.
(Would even to be willing to build one for somebody else in trade for labor/parts)

Here ya go: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?257435-PID-Temperature-Controller-s Lot's of good reviews on his boxes.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Thank you!

[Glassman66]

Thanks, I looked through the vendor page, must have missed it.


Randy