Terrible groups from my Marlin 1895GS, using IMR4198...

[Walstr]

Greetings; Here's a summary of my latest 45-70-405 load tests using IMR4198. Don't know how to show a .docx Word document, scanned it as a .jpg, then had to reduce the 8.3Mb file to 30%. Hope you can zoom & read it, if you're interested.

I can't read it here...sorry. Maybe a moderator can help? p.s. how do I delete the "attached thumbnail"?

Wally

182198

[runfiverun]

you can click on the pic to make it larger.
then control+ a couple of times zooms it in enough to read everything.

[corbinace]

Thanks for the computer lesson, R5R. I love those shortcut keys, I just do not know them all.

[Buckshot]

............What kind of groups do you get with jacketed loads? What does your barrel slug? Marlin's website says it has Ballard rifling, yes? Can't read it if you listed, but what alloy BHN were you running, velocity, crimp?

............Buckshot

[odfairfaxsub]

I deff don't go that hot w mine and at 50 yard I get bullets touching...w out seeing what my load is as I don't keep track on my phone and write that stuff down in a notebook it's around the 35-36 gr mark or such. Seems to me I used the trap door load w same powder and same bullet weight.

[odfairfaxsub]

No such thing as killing them killer. My load deff kills

[Tatume]

I've had poor results using filler. Have you tried without the poly?

[white eagle]

another suggestion
have your boolits aged or do you cast and shoot
makes a difference

[44man]

I have never had any luck with 4198 myself. Vast pressure excursions along with velocities. 3031 should fix it.

[Walstr]

Copying my .docx verbage here from orig post, to see it better & explain my recent variables.

Brown paper “targets” for zero checking @ 50yds. Stopped adjusting scope with target #10 zero; remaining results using hold @ “Dead Center”. Paper plates @ 100yds, bench rest, 5 shot strings, ‘slow fire’ to allow barrel to cool. Last months’ test attempt failed because I was having too much fun & shot for an hour or so; bbl was HOT & impacts moved down & left substantially; chased my tail with scope adjustments! Bush league mistake. 33deg, 95% humidity, calm, snowing.

Bullet: My custom .45-70-405, hardcast CWW+2%Sn, water quenched & aged several months, Xlox lubed & sized to .461”, 405gr-406gr lubed & sized, firmly crimped in crimp groove. [Note: bullet nose lube not wiped clean.]

Loads: #10=35gr thru #14=38gr IMR4198, poly filled, W-W brass, Federal Magnum Large Rifle Primers.

Conclusion: Maybe loads are too hot? Some reportedly used 41gr IMR4198. My next tests will try 31gr-34gr powder.


Here's what I did 2 months ago, comparing filled vs not filled cases, same powder. Did not slow fire, so I'm sure bbl distortion was in play. Thanks for your interest. Wally
182220

[Maven]

Why not drop down to 27gr. IMR 4198? Try the lower charge without any crimp on those CB's as well.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Wally: I didn't get if your boolits are Plain Base or Gas Checked. If they are plain based you aren't going to get any accuracy past about 1450-1500fps. The back edge of the boolits gets too distorted during the firing process which throws the boolits willy nilly.

I know the gun will shoot, as pretty much all of the Marlins will shoot if fed the right combo of fodder.

My 1895 CB recently produced a 1 3/4" 3 shot group at 100 yards with Iron Sights using an RCBS .45-300FNGC which yields finished boolits of 340 gr.

I used 33 gr of 5744 powder and a WLR primer. Velocity is around 1550 fps. I can shoot 40 of these in one sitting in a Silhouette Match and not have any lasting after effects. IE: the Recoil is "tolerable."

The operative point here is that a Gas Checked boolit can be driven much faster than a plain based boolit simply because the base is protected from the fire.

4198 is not one of my stocked powders as I have never gotten good results in anything I tried it in. Too many others that work better.

For Cast Boolit Loads in big calibers 5744 seems to be the easiest to get good consistent results from, and that is why it is so popular.

Randy

[Walstr]

Copying my .docx verbage here from orig post, to see it better & explain my recent variables.

Brown paper “targets” for zero checking @ 50yds. Stopped adjusting scope with target #10 zero; remaining results using hold @ “Dead Center”. Paper plates @ 100yds, bench rest, 5 shot strings, ‘slow fire’ to allow barrel to cool. Last months’ test attempt failed because I was having too much fun & shot for an hour or so; bbl was HOT & impacts moved down & left substantially; chased my tail with scope adjustments! Bush league mistake. 33deg, 95% humidity, calm, snowing.

Bullet: My custom .45-70-405, hardcast CWW+2%Sn, water quenched & aged several months, Xlox lubed & sized to .461”, 405gr-406gr lubed & sized, firmly crimped in crimp groove. [Note: bullet nose lube not wiped clean.]

Loads: #10=35gr thru #14=38gr IMR4198, poly filled, W-W brass, Federal Magnum Large Rifle Primers.

Conclusion: Maybe loads are too hot? Some reportedly used 41gr IMR4198. My next tests will try 31gr-34gr powder.


Here's what I did 2 months ago, comparing filled vs not filled cases, same powder. Did not slow fire, so I'm sure bbl distortion was in play. Thanks for your interest. Wally
182228

[Walstr]

wr buchanan; Thanks for encouraging report. Without a chrony, and no leading, I felt I wasn't exceeding any 'speed limits' for my brew, however, the plain base factor gives me thought. Just because it's not leading, doesn't mean the base is square & clean, thus causing 'willy nilly' flight!

I cannot GC these, but next time out will bracket test lighter loads @ 31g-34gr of IMR4198, filled & naked. I'm trying to find a recipe for IMR4198 'cause I received 16# of new/old stock gratis, which is a lifetime supply for me. I also received 8# of BLC-2, which is slower; don't know if that's a good thang since your getting good results with a faster powder, albeit, with a boolit 25% lighter.

Regards, Wally

My custom Mountain Mold Bore riding nose & early .461" driving band

182274 182273

[Walstr]

Why not drop down to 27gr. IMR 4198? Try the lower charge without any crimp on those CB's as well.

Well, I'm striving for the fastest, most accurate recipe, hopefully using my 'lifetime' supply of IMR4198 or BLC-2 powders. Haven't tried the BLC-2 yet. Thanks.

[cold1]

I am using a 350gr NOE Ranch dog GC mold, COWW water quenched (I do not gas check these) over 35gr H4198 and I am getting 1380FPS. This is in a 1895GS with microgroove barrel.

I am still a "new caster", only been doing for 2 years. My 1895 did not really like Air cooled COWW with this load. The 35 gr has been my most accurate load with this powder so far. Hope this helps.

[Walstr]

............What kind of groups do you get with jacketed loads? What does your barrel slug? Marlin's website says it has Ballard rifling, yes? Can't read it if you listed, but what alloy BHN were you running, velocity, crimp?

............Buckshot

--Don't shoot J-Words, too $$
--It's that "Microgroove" rifling, shallow & needs larger boolit to fill it out; mine are sized to .461".
--I'm guessing BHN is 16+ based upon tables & aging time.
--No chrony; firm crimp in the nose groove

Thanks.

[Walstr]

I am using a 350gr NOE Ranch dog GC mold, COWW water quenched (I do not gas check these) over 35gr H4198 and I am getting 1380FPS. This is in a 1895GS with microgroove barrel.

I am still a "new caster", only been doing for 2 years. My 1895 did not really like Air cooled COWW with this load. The 35 gr has been my most accurate load with this powder so far. Hope this helps.

It helps. How do you think my 405 gr pill should work with 35gr IMR4198? I posted some target samples & I'm not liking them.

[JimB..]

182273

Can't zoom in, is that brass trimmed square?

[Buckshot]

Can't zoom in, is that brass trimmed square?

..............JimB, I zoomed in on it and the casemouth is square and the crimp is nice and even.

.............Buckshot

[cold1]

Have you tried that Boolit with other powders? What accuracy did you get if you did?

Have you tried different boolits in the rifle? What accuracy did you get?

I havent had a lot of time to play with my loads, but I have tried the Lee 458 HB and the NOE collar button out of mine. The rifle did not like the LEE HB as much as the Ranch dog. Now I did not try to find a powder and boolit combo that would be the best while doing this. I just loaded them up and shot to see what they would do. I think I put the Lee over 30gr of 4198. The collar button was just for plinking and used 10 gr Unique or a few grains of reddot. It could be that the rifle just doesnt like that boolit.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Wally; Wow that boolit should knock the stuffin' out of whatever it hits! You might also try Powder Coating those boolits which would eliminate any possibility of leading and provide some Lubricity, and you could probably drive them a little harder too boot.

As far as the BLC-2 goes I'd save that for loading my .223/5.56 or .308,.30-06 or other .30 cal rounds.

I looked at the Hodgdons website and they list one load for a 400 gr boolit with 4198 and it starts at 43 gr for 1868 fps and goes up to 46 gr at 1960 fps.

Obviously both of these are way too fast for that boolit.

I have never had any luck with 4198 and that's why I don't use it. Since you got a lifetime supply, I can only suggest buying more guns in calibers that will give decent results with that powder. A .30-06 bolt gun comes to mind.

Randy

[lotech]

I no longer have a Marlin .45-70, but had a Micro-Groove one purchased new about thirty years ago. It shot well with WW alloy bullets (Lyman 420 grain FN and comparable RCBS version) sized as large as possible, about .460" and 31 grs. IMR4198, standard CCI LR primer, no filler. Generally, I've found if you need a filler, you need a more suitable powder.

[NSB]

I'm not sure why 4198 is getting a bad rap from anyone here. I believe there are some who've had poor results with it, but I'm not one of them. That powder has worked very, very well for me in a number of rifles in 45-70 caliber. Fact of the matter is, a lot of powders have produced very good results in 45-70 for me. It's the least fussy caliber I've ever loaded for. I often use 4198, Rel7, and 5744. The vaunted 3031 has worked well and is considered by many to be THE powder for this caliber. I've had mediocre-fair results with it compared to the others listed. I drive almost all my loads at 1350-1500fps. No hot rodding for me. I actually enjoy a range session with most of my guns. I wouldn't be too quick to blame this powder for poor results. There are many, many more probable things that aren't right with your load. I'd look a little deeper than the powder.
Is this the only powder you've tried? What's the best groups you've gotten and with what powder?

[flint45]

I have been using IMR4198 in my 1895 Marlin for years with good results and a small tuft of dacron tried it with and without dacron better acc. with.Also IMR3031 is a good powder in my Marlin no issues with micro- groove either.Also get great results with xmp 5744.

[lotech]

NSB- I only tried 3031 with cast bullets once in the .45-70 and my results were similar to yours. The very best powder I found for my Marlin was 5744 with the Lyman #457193 bullet. As I recall, however, the difference in accuracy between it and IMR4198 was slight. Both powders were used for loads in the 1,300 fps muzzle velocity range.

[1Hawkeye]

Try it with out the case filler. Then if you don't like the group maybe try another powder such as imr 3031 .. 34 grs to 38 grs or maybe try varget but I don't know a load for that one yet. I tried 4198 when I was looking for a replacement for 4759 the groups were ok but there was a good bit more recoil with the same bullet going the same velocity. 4198 is great for a .221 fireball or a.222 Remington.

[elrotundamundo]

I, too, got poor groups with 4198 at first. Turns out it can be position sensitive. After getting a new 45-70 Henry and ordering some bullets from Cast Performance, I had to find some bullets locally when they couldn't deliver by hunting season. All I could find were some HSM 405 grain RNFP with a bevel base. My first try with 4198 yielded poor groups and velocities all over the place. I was aiming for an average velocity of 1400 FPS. After researching fillers on this forum and how to safely use them without danger of ringing your chamber, I used three 45 caliber felt wads over the 4198 and made sure the bullet compressed the wads slightly. The extreme spread in velocity went down to a reasonable amount and the groups tightened way up. I am not sure if the improved accuracy is a result of eliminating the empty space in the case and reducing velocity variation as a result, or if it came from the wads protecting the exposed lead of the bullet base. In any case, I have a decent hunting load. The only downside is that the guys near me at the range kept asking if anyone could smell burning hair.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Mango Chutney with Burnt Hair?

Randy

[44man]

Powders are crazy in what you use. I could NOT get light bullets to shoot from my 7BR and 7R pistols at all. I had Varget and called Hodgdon. I could hear laughter in the background and was told NO, not going to work. How about 1/2" at 50 yards and 2175 fps? A 120 gr SSP Hornady? Same with the 7R both 10" barrels. How in the world does a slow powder like Varget work?
But 4198 has not worked as good as claimed. It is like 4227 and caliber specific. Like 4320 where it worked in just a few.

[NSB]

Wished I'd have known 4198 wasn't a good choice. I wouldn't have wasted my time and only gotten results like this with it at 114yds.

[Tackleberry41]

I have not had issues with 4198. Use it all the time. I got rid of my marlin with a microgroove as it simply did not like cast bullets. Doesnt have to be micro groove. I have an old stevens 340 in 30-30, it shoots jacketed great, but have yet to find a cast bullet it likes. Know its not the bullets, as they shoot fine in other 30 cal.

[44man]

Wished I'd have known 4198 wasn't a good choice. I wouldn't have wasted my time and only gotten results like this with it at 114yds.
You did not say with what.

[NSB]

High Wall 45-70. Somehow this thread morphed into the "fact" that 4198 wasn't a good powder for that caliber....for some odd reason.

[Walstr]

High Wall 45-70. Somehow this thread morphed into the "fact" that 4198 wasn't a good powder for that caliber....for some odd reason.

NSB: Nah, it's not morphing [first time using this word...] , just a bunch of shooters preferring other stuff. By hearing how something didn't work I might learn sumthin'. Thanks for taking your time to help me.

I loaded 11 pkgs of 8 rnds ea. for next range day; 30gr-40gr IMR4198, NO filler. My last test [this OP] didn't do well with filler. I was sure, keeping the powder stacked up nicely would be advantageous. Oh well, shows ya how much a guy doesn't know about what he doesn't know!

Wally

[Walstr]

Dusty PM'd me re: boolit quality. I could not answer him via PM, 'cause I couldn't post a .jpg from "computer", only "URL", so I'll try to answer his thoughtful concerns here.
182614 rt > left; as cast, lubed & sized to .461", loaded w/nose wiped clean.

homogeneity: I can only assume it's concentricity is OK post sizing. I know nothing about their cast homogeneity, but can only hope all my cast boolits do not have voids. Since they seem to be shooting 5"-6" groups, I'm going to infer their lack of homogeneity is consistent enough to keep them somewhat together?!?

sheen/casting temperature: The above 'as cast' sample was kept 'cause it's pretty & shows the most detail. I strive to cast them a tiny bit cooler, to produce a slight matte sheen.
182615 182616 The [45LC] middle samples here are: "Not to hot & not too cold."

This is considered beneficial by others, for Tumble Lubing. As seen in my above 45-70 pill here, the grooves are NOT filled in 100%, mayhaps THAT'S the problem, causing imbalance in flight? "But Sensei, other lubing is so arduous!" If my next range day testing 30gr-40gr is disappointing, I'm taking Dusty's advice & "hand lubing" the next test victims. I've seen many recipes around many postings. Buut, I'd really like to make two things work: #1--IMR4198 & #2--Tumble lubing.

leade/barrel fit: My boolit nose is a 'bore rider' @ .450" dia., bore is .451" dia. at the chamber. The front driving band is .100" long. This early sample was shot into the [oiled] bbl w/2gr Unique, no boolit lube.
182617
Thanks again for everyone's interest & concern for my success.

[JimB..]

It seems unlikely that you'd have voids, but weigh each bullet as it's really really unlikely that they'd all have the same size void. If they weigh the same then they don't have voids.

[Dusty Bannister]

I am still going to guess the alloy or mold is just a little cold because of the rounded bands shown on the as cast bullet in the photo of the loaded round and as cast and as lubed. I also think you need to review tumble lube application because of the goobers as if the lube is not well mixed and applied too heavily. I suggested that you mic the bullets to see if you did have good fill out to the correct diameter but that is not addressed. You did attach a photo showing the range of a different bullet from casting cold to casting hot. That might lead you off the path because it is a significantly different bullet at probably half the weight of the problem bullet. And what is causing the ring on the nose of the bullet?

Does anyone else find it odd that a bullet with a .450" nose take an impression from a .451" bore?

I would still suggest you try a soft wax lube, applied with fingers to see if that will improve the groups. And check the muzzle to see if you get any lube star, or a silver star from your TL bullets. I think I would also not remove the TL from the nose if it is in contact with the lands as it seems to show with the bore slug bullet. I am sure others will have better ideas now that a few photos are available. Dusty

[fredj338]

I am sure every rifle/load is diff, but I have never gotten great results with 4198 in my GG or Browning 1886. I get better results, jacketed or lead, using 3031, no over powder wad needed. Many powders will work in the 45-70. Life is too short to try to beat a dead horse. Switch powders & move on.

[Walstr]

2016-12-30, Marlin 1895GS, 45-70 Load Development
My 2nd batch of results without fillers.

Adjusted scope Zero initially using 30gr @ 50yds; remaining results using hold @ “Dead Center”. Benchrested forearm & ‘slow fire’ shot strings to allow barrel to cool between groups. (Last months’ test attempt failed because I was having too much fun & shot for an hour or so; bbl was HOT & impacts moved down & left substantially; chased my tail with scope adjustments! Bush league mistake.) Weather: 30deg, Clear, Calm

Bullet: My custom Mountain Mold (MM) .45-70-405, hardcast CWW+2%Sn, water quenched & aged several months, Xlox lubed & sized to .461”, 405gr-406gr lubed & sized, firmly crimped in crimp groove.

Note: bullet bore riding nose lube not wiped clean, no filler, W-W brass, Federal Magnum Large Rifle Primers.

Conclusion: Don’t know why groups aren’t improving. I thought the 31gr IMR 4198 group was pretty good, except for the flyer @ 7:30.
--Maybe just laying the forearm on the “benchrest” & hugging the butt stock is allowing it to jump too much? Don’t know.
--Maybe I should be cradling the forearm firmly in my left palm?
--Maybe loads are still too hot?
--Maybe Xlox lube is too dry & throwing boolit off balance? Maybe I’ll hand lube some with beeswax to fill the grooves? Don’t know.
--Maybe it’s as good as it gets with an 18” Marlin barrel & MY boolit design? Don’t know.

183978 183979 183980 183981

[NSB]

Lever guns are notorious for being difficult to shoot off bags. Even minute changes to your cheek weld will move the POI all over the place. I can make my guns shoot great groups and simply by moving my face on the stock I can get "flyers". The height of the bench, pressure on stock, position of bags under gun, etc all have an effect on grouping with "bridge" guns (guns with two piece stocks). They simply aren't as forgiving as one piece stocks. I'm not sure as many shooters are fully aware of this as they think. A lot of trial and error at the bench will teach you a lot about how critical these effects are.

[Maven]

This was fired from a Marlin #336 .45-70, microgroove rifling with front & rear rests, NSB (got similar results from a #336 MG .30-30 with rests too).

[Gtek]

I have been fiddling with these Marlins for let's say a while and have more than I probably should. With that said, First thing I have used for many moons as far as accuracy testing and on bench. Stand up and hold the rifle as if shooting, where your forward hand hold is will be duplicated on front rest with back of hand on rest. Sit as close to 90 degrees as possible duplicating the standing position. This also allows the torso to roll up and out absorbing the big pill and big load rounds also and somewhat mirrors the standing shot. Second thing, all this talk about powder, boolit, etc., has the bore been checked for constrictions? I have found more than enough to check everyone I come in contact with. The culprit is usually found around the roll stamping and the rear dovetail cut for rear sight. There may have been a contest at Marlin who could do the most in one shift! I am by no means a Boolit Meister but I do understand what a flat sided unbalanced non sealing slug can do. Just for make you feel betters, find somebody that owns a pin gauge set and find the one that just slips in muzzle, take wooden dowel and push through to chamber. If it stops, mark dowel, remove and now you know where first one is. Some I have found slip right through, others have taken many tedious hours to carefully remove. Not saying that's it, but I would confirm all I could before condemning a powder/boolit.

[Walstr]

I have been fiddling with these Marlins for let's say a while and have more than I probably should. With that said, First thing I have used for many moons as far as accuracy testing and on bench. Stand up and hold the rifle as if shooting, where your forward hand hold is will be duplicated on front rest with back of hand on rest. Sit as close to 90 degrees as possible duplicating the standing position. This also allows the torso to roll up and out absorbing the big pill and big load rounds also and somewhat mirrors the standing shot. Second thing, all this talk about powder, boolit, etc., has the bore been checked for constrictions? I have found more than enough to check everyone I come in contact with. The culprit is usually found around the roll stamping and the rear dovetail cut for rear sight. There may have been a contest at Marlin who could do the most in one shift! I am by no means a Boolit Meister but I do understand what a flat sided unbalanced non sealing slug can do. Just for make you feel betters, find somebody that owns a pin gauge set and find the one that just slips in muzzle, take wooden dowel and push through to chamber. If it stops, mark dowel, remove and now you know where first one is. Some I have found slip right through, others have taken many tedious hours to carefully remove. Not saying that's it, but I would confirm all I could before condemning a powder/boolit.

Thanks. I do have an industrial tool vendor in town. I'll see what they have in the way of drill rod, say 7/16" (.4375"), upon which I could wrap increasing layers of tape, to find the constriction! Awesome idear.

Great site--great people!

[Walstr]

I no longer have a Marlin .45-70, but had a Micro-Groove one purchased new about thirty years ago. It shot well with WW alloy bullets (Lyman 420 grain FN and comparable RCBS version) sized as large as possible, about .460" and 31 grs. IMR4198, standard CCI LR primer, no filler. Generally, I've found if you need a filler, you need a more suitable powder.

Cool. What accuracy do you recall?

[Walstr]

Lever guns are notorious for being difficult to shoot off bags. Even minute changes to your cheek weld will move the POI all over the place. I can make my guns shoot great groups and simply by moving my face on the stock I can get "flyers". The height of the bench, pressure on stock, position of bags under gun, etc all have an effect on grouping with "bridge" guns (guns with two piece stocks). They simply aren't as forgiving as one piece stocks. I'm not sure as many shooters are fully aware of this as they think. A lot of trial and error at the bench will teach you a lot about how critical these effects are.

Obviously had no idea they were so "delicate". Based upon a recent PM to this blog, I was advised to try resting/holding the forearm close to the receiver, to avoid affecting bbl deflection/bias. The devil is in da details & I ain't found him yet, but I'm a gunna!

[Walstr]

This was fired from a Marlin #336 .45-70, microgroove rifling with front & rear rests, NSB (got similar results from a #336 MG .30-30 with rests too).

That's not nice to skip the mention of powder. Stop teasing....:)

[Gtek]

You are dealing with thousandths, tape maybe if it were REALLY bad. Pull lever, pull bolt, get a .375" wooden dowel and go find a pin gauge set for real deal. Also if you find access to gauge set of .250"-.500" you can back up on pins till one slides through and that will tell you how much it is if indeed found. Maybe find something, maybe not, but in this game sometimes .002" can change the world.

[Maven]

Walstr, The loading data is on the target, but not entirely on the cropped photo: I used 17gr. WC 820/AA #9

[Walstr]

Some have asked to see my "muzzle lube star" . Here's 2 pics from 60rnds range time 2 days ago; Xlox Tumble Lube.

184022 184023

[Walstr]

A PM yesterday suggested the prospect of my Clip On Wheel Weights + 2% tin being too soft. I found the Greenhill Barrel Twist formula & the calculation shows I should have a 1:31 barrel! So if my alloy is too soft, and the Marlin 1:20 twist is too fast, then I might be stripping the boolit right thru the bore & launching an unguided slug!!! Whew. Too much to comprehend tonight. Happy New Year.

[44man]

A PM yesterday suggested the prospect of my Clip On Wheel Weights + 2% tin being too soft. I found the Greenhill Barrel Twist formula & the calculation shows I should have a 1:31 barrel! So if my alloy is too soft, and the Marlin 1:20 twist is too fast, then I might be stripping the boolit right thru the bore & launching an unguided slug!!! Whew. Too much to comprehend tonight. Happy New Year.
NO, use Greenhill to start campfires. It is of no use. You will always show way too slow.

[Walstr]

RE: Clarification to my Response #51...

I misunderstood the 20:1, 40:1 ratios, etc. I realize (now) it means "Pure Lead: Tin" ratio. My bad. Sorry. In practice, I've been using "1/50 Tin: CWW", or 2% Tin added. I also "Quench" because it's a convenient way to "drop" the fresh new boolits into a gentle receptacle.

Based upon much reading in these related forums, I became convinced that a properly sized, hard lead boolit was "preferred" for high(er) velocity use. Still learning what "high velocity" really means in my case here, but it didn't scare me away from quenching in my casting process.

And I've leaned to use CWW to represent "Clip on Wheel Weights", which some abbreviate as COWW.

I was gunna hit the range today with 11 bags of 4rnds each, for another round of testing, with mag tube & forearm removed. Alas, it was -1 so I'll wait 'till tomorrow when it hits dbl digits. When I record any relevant data, it should be most useful for next deer hunting season. Thanks to all concerned.

[W.R.Buchanan]

You really need one of my Hand Presses so that you can load your ammo at the range. That way you don't have to pull down rounds that don't work out, You just take a bunch of pre-sized and primed cases with you and different powders and boolits if you want, and load as you go. That way you aren't chasing bad loads that obviously aren't working, and can try other things that might work better without having to go home to reload.

I know you have a ton of that powder, but why don't you try some others to see if you can get the gun to shoot. If you can then at least you know it's not you or the gun. 5744 or 3031 is a good place to start

The Minutia of Boolit Casting and Reloading really don't come into play until you are fine tuning a load. You should be able to get in the ball park with a load easily with simple stuff, long before the minutia becomes necessary to tweak it .

I use nothing but strait COWW's on everything except long skinny boolits which I add tin to, so they will fill out. The big fat ones fill out just fine and I don't age anything more than a few days and that's only because I didn't get around to dealing with the new boolits until then. IE Aging is not a big deal for me. (Well it is but that's my body not my Boolits!) What I'm telling you is that you should be able to cast boolits from wheel weights and lube with any normal lube, and size them and add gas checks and be done with it,,, and still get acceptable results.

There are people here who get "exceptional results" by combining all the minutia,,, but even their worst loads would be more than acceptable to most of us.

For my .45-70 boolits which are RCBS 45.300 FNGC which drop at 461-2 they get lubed with NRA Alox/Beeswax (because it's in the sizer) and a gas check installed when sized to .460. and end up being 340 gr.

Then they get loaded over 33.0 gr of 5744 and roll crimped in the groove for about 1550 fps.

The rifle is an 1895 CB which I have completely reworked inside and out, however none of this in any way affects the barrel.

This gun shoots Sub 2" at 100 yards consistently with this load.

I was told once that the fore end needs to float a little on these guns so that the mag tube doesn't affect the barrel, and mine is intentionally a little loose, but I don't know for sure if that makes any real difference.

Next: shooting at pie plates with crosshairs drawn on them not conducive of accurate sight indexing. You need to draw a 2" diamond for 50 yards and a 4" one for 100. That way you can accurately center the diamond on top of your front sight the same way every time. This alone will tighten your groups a lot and it works equally well with a scope.

That gun can't be that much fun to shoot with heavy boolits. It weighs about 6 lbs? So getting the ship beat out of you while trying to bench rest the gun might influence the size of your groups as well, and way more than the fine points of boolit casting. Maybe a "Lead Sled" would help you out.

This shouldn't be that hard. Try a different powder first and the shooting tips I gave above because I think that's where your problems lie. Not with the boolits themselves. I think they look very good. :mrgreen:

Randy

[Walstr]

Thanks http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/vs.gifW.R.Buchanan (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?18208-W-R-Buchanan). Really appreciate your feedback. It's Sunday now, but here's my results from a short range visit yesterday. I hope I can add the target pics.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2017-1-7, Marlin 1895GS, 45-70 Load Development

For this test I:
--made sure all loaded rnds had no imperfections, especially the bases
--all lube grooves were filled evenly
--all ‘noses’ were wiped clean
--removed Forearm stock & loosened magtube mounting screw ¼ turn (used Purple Locktite) to assure a slight gap (paper) to barrel; hopefully avoiding any undue influence. Work remains on the Forearm wood gap.
--no “zero’g”, just used scope as it was left last time; probably bump zero up a few inches for next time
-- White paper @ 100yds, bench rested my left hand as barrel support, rearward near receiver
--single shot ‘slow fire’, the one rnd of each load per target, then repeated 3 times; although it was 14 deg, the barrel barely got warm. Final evaluation: 3 shots with cold rifle, cold cartridges.

Bullet: My custom Mountain Mold .45-70-405, hardcast COWW+2%Sn, water quenched & aged several weeks, Xlox lubed & sized to .461”, firmly crimped in crimp groove.

Loads: 30gr -35gr IMR4198, not filled, W-W brass, Federal Magnum Large Rifle Primers.

Conclusion: I like the way 35gr is looking; curious about muzzle FPS. That’s a 3” group! Best yet. Even with a hvy jacket & gloves, my pulse was easily seen on the scope. I’m puzzled how “high” 33gr landed. The 34gr attempt went all wrong, so not included. Will try to head out again tomorrow (won’t miss Wildcard Division Playoff: Packers vs Jets @ 1540) and try 33gr-40gr.

Hmmm, still can't upload any pics...maybe my allotment is full, but I can't see where I can delete any previous pics. NOTE: I used Paint to 'correct' the year from
"6" to "7", and mayhaps that's why it's not loading? Here's the un-crop'd originals.

184727 184728

184729 184730

184731

[Bird]

It appears your second batch of filler less loads were not as accurate as your first batch of filler less loads. Looking at your posting dates it seems your groups are getting worse the colder it gets. Don't laugh, but are your jackets or clothing getting thicker the colder it gets.
You mention a thick jacket and gloves. You are likely getting large groups, because your rifle is recoiling differently with each shot. I tried shooting wearing a jacket, and everything went to pot.
Ditch the jacket for a thin sweater, as I guess a t-shirt is not suitable attire for this time of year in Wisconsin. Load the magazine full, and pull the butt stock hard into your shoulder like you mean it. You will get a better and a more repeatable feel. Stay with the 35 grain load, my load is just 1/2 grain less. Don't rest your torso against the bench, and it will lessen the effect of heartbeat through the scope.
Give it a try...nothing to lose. Unless you get frostbite:shock:

[44man]

Test primers, no need for magnum primers.

[lotech]

Walstr- As I recall, groups were around 2"-3" at 100 yards, using a Williams aperture sight. I never scoped the gun.

[Char-Gar]

Walstr.... I have been loading the 45-70 since 1961 in many and various firearms. It is a very accurate round and quite easy to find accurate cast bullet loads. Currently I have a Ruger #3 and a Marlin 1895 in that round and both give sterling cast bullet accuracy. By sterling, I mean 1 to 2 MOA.

Shooting a levergun off the bench, do not load rounds in the magazine, but singly in the chamber for best accuracy. Hold the rifle firm against your shoulder with the forend also held firmly in you other hand resting on the bag.

That said, I don't load ammo like you do. Here is what I do and you can take it from there.

1. I use gas checked bullets that weight from 350 to 500 grains.

2. I use alloy no harder than No. 2 and certainly do not water drop bullets. ACWW are plenty hard enough.

3. I keep velocities to no higher than 1,600 fps. Such loads will shoot through end to end on any animal found in North America. Any extra velocity goes into recoil, blast and damage to the ground the other side of the animal.

4. I use traditional lubes, feeling that the various tumble lubes don't stand up to my use in that rifle, at that velocity.

5. I use 2400 (23 - 25 grains) powder for most of my loads and 3031 or 4895 if I want to go top end, which I seldom do. I have also found 28-30 grains of 4795 to give first rate accuracy.

6. I use no fillers with any of the powders.

All of this is quite different from what you do, so I can't comment or anything you do, because I have never done it that way. I have killed quite a few deer over the years with the 45-70 and it does the job very well.

Best of luck....

[44man]

The 45-70 is a wonderful caliber and like the .45 Colt will live forever to take out aliens.
The lever gun can be touchy but I have owned many that give a varmint bolt gun a run for the money. Only bad one I met was the .44 mag. They did use Greenhill for the twist.

[bigboredad]

I'm curious why no one has brought this up as I believe could be one of your biggest issues. Recoil! You stated you wanted the fastest most accurate load you could find. Now think about what load nearly wiped out the Buffalo it wasn't fast even by Magnum handgun velocities. When I bought my first guide gun I started at trapdoor lowest charge for the powder and also used a past recoil pad that you wear. Also bullets coated with alox of xlox work better with frosted bullets. Your mold and or alloy appear to be to cold this the reason for round bands and base which looked to me to be almost a bevel base and to thin. My advice cast hotter lower your loads to trapdoor loads and work up. The 45/70 is my 2nd favorite caliber so when it goes to the range I want to shoot it and shoot it a lot. The above is what worked for me and is my opinion it is most likely wrong YMMV

[Walstr]

It appears your second batch of filler less loads were not as accurate as your first batch of filler less loads. Looking at your posting dates it seems your groups are getting worse the colder it gets. Don't laugh, but are your jackets or clothing getting thicker the colder it gets.
You mention a thick jacket and gloves. You are likely getting large groups, because your rifle is recoiling differently with each shot. I tried shooting wearing a jacket, and everything went to pot.
Ditch the jacket for a thin sweater, as I guess a t-shirt is not suitable attire for this time of year in Wisconsin. Load the magazine full, and pull the butt stock hard into your shoulder like you mean it. You will get a better and a more repeatable feel. Stay with the 35 grain load, my load is just 1/2 grain less. Don't rest your torso against the bench, and it will lessen the effect of heartbeat through the scope.
Give it a try...nothing to lose. Unless you get frostbite:shock:

BIRD: I'm not sure how your jacket cushion theory works, but I'll have to deal with this variable. Hunting here & North usually requires bulky clothes, so it's a simulation for sure. My gloved left hand was holding the magtube near the receiver & right elbow on the bench. Our RSO volunteer for today was a no-show; I'll have to wait 'till Friday, 14th.

In the meantime, I started collecting hardware to load .30-06 for my (and Nephews) M1917. I'll be using some 153gr GC'd, HP from a vendor. It's only seen 200 rnds of surplus Greek ammo, so I should start scrubbing copper I'm told.

[Walstr]

Test primers, no need for magnum primers.

Yea, but...a friend in need of $$ talked me into buying 1K of these Federal Mag Lrg Rifle primers, that he would never use. I read where they're useful w/IMR4198 in cold weather, soooo....I gots a lifetime supply of these buggars.

[JimB..]

Yea, but...a friend in need of $$ talked me into buying 1K of these Federal Mag Lrg Rifle primers, that he would never use. I read where they're useful w/IMR4198 in cold weather, soooo....I gots a lifetime supply of these buggars.

At the rate you're testing I don't think you have a lifetime supply of anything :-)

Please don't take this the wrong way, but are you able to produce the groups you want with a different rifle?

[44man]

I just don't like 4198, touted as the best for certain applications and even Ken Waters said it but I have not found it true. It is like the 4227's, I only found one caliber it works in.
The LR mag primer is too much for a 45-70 so even a supply will not improve things. Most loads do well with a LP mag or standard LR.
You must experiment even if you need to buy 100 primers.
The LR mag was developed for the Weatherby rounds with the HUGE powder charges and was unknown before then. Fed made the first at request from Weatherby.
Understand mag primer pressure will move the boolit and powder out of the case before good ignition. You could see 2000# more just from the primer.
Primers are tricky, look at shotgun loads once. Loads state the primer and if you change to other you can burst a shotgun.

[Walstr]

At the rate you're testing I don't think you have a lifetime supply of anything :-)

Please don't take this the wrong way, but are you able to produce the groups you want with a different rifle?

Don't know. It's this particular 'tool' I'm trying to learn at this time. When I get this 1895GS & IMR4198 & cast 405 dialed in, I look forward to the confidence of knowing where it delivers at various ranges & temperatures.

I'm reminded of the signature mantra I've seen here & elsewhere: "Beware the man who only owns one gun, he probably knows how to use it." When I pick it up, I'd like to be that man with this Marlin.
I may be more proficient throwing darts, but I wanna throw rocks! :killingpc

[JimB..]

Don't know. It's this particular 'tool' I'm trying to learn at this time. When I get this 1895GS & IMR4198 & cast 405 dialed in, I look forward to the confidence of knowing where it delivers at various ranges & temperatures.

I'm reminded of the signature mantra I've seen here & elsewhere: "Beware the man who only owns one gun, he probably knows how to use it." When I pick it up, I'd like to be that man with this Marlin.
I may be more proficient throwing darts, but I wanna throw rocks! :killingpc

Not a bad objective, but it brings into the calculus that you are learning to shoot. That's great, but it means that the size of your groups is at least as much a function of your current ability as it is an issue with the gun or the load. You're kinda worried about the brand of axle grease for your race car when you don't have a driver's license yet.

[dverna]

Start at the beginning.

Can you shoot a gun with some recoil accurately? Many people flinch.
Is the gun accurate with factory ammo? One box will not bankrupt you
Are your reloads with jacketed bullets bullets accurate?

Something to consider is to find a buddy to shoot with. Shoot a few rounds with his guns. Have him shoot your Marlin.

Don Verna

[Walstr]

dverna; Hmmm, good idear. Missed last Sunday as RSO didn't show. I was bringing a box of Fed along for the ride. I don't believe I'm flinching & the sight is steady 'till BOOM! Me & my 13yr old Gson have a good time lighting off my M1917 w/surplus ammo & gotta say neither of us seem to flinch. Oh well, the truth will reveal itself. Darn good thing nothing really important is depending on quick results.

I never reloaded anything but cast. I would like to see anyone's 100yd results w/home cast, 405gr boolits. Guess I'm unique---but don't think so. I offered my setup to 2 others to "try it for fun" & their groups were terribler than mine. Could be my 16" (effective length) 1:20 barrel is as good as it gets--but I doubt it. If the ice storm clears up, I'm makin' noise Friday--hmmm, my B-Day.

[JimB..]

You might make up a dummy round and let your Gson load the rifle randomly for you, that'll show if you're flinching. BTW, I'd load up a good number of 35gr round that gave you a 3" group and use/draw a more standard rifle target that includes a diamond. With a little practice I bet it gets down close to 2". Obviously, no scope adjustments during a group.

You might also try sizing to .460. Doubt that it'll help, but it seems to be what most folks shoot.

Oh, and happy b-day, if you were closer I'd give you some primers and powder. You anywhere near Elkhart Lake?

[44man]

I had the Lyman mold for the 405 and it was too small at .457" so I gave it to my friend. He has a Pedersoli Sharps and it fits his.
I got a sample pack of Laser Cast, darn nice boolits but still .457". I need at least .460" so I made my own molds.
The 1 in 20" rate will work, just need to shoot faster. My calculations show you need 2300 to 2400 fps.

[Walstr]

JIMB: LOL...but good idear having someone load a dummy in the mag tube! lol

[Walstr]

I had the Lyman mold for the 405 and it was too small at .457" so I gave it to my friend. He has a Pedersoli Sharps and it fits his.
I got a sample pack of Laser Cast, darn nice boolits but still .457". I need at least .460" so I made my own molds.
The 1 in 20" rate will work, just need to shoot faster. My calculations show you need 2300 to 2400 fps.

WHAAAT! 2300 fps? Don't think I can plan on that load. Just for :???:, how many ounces of IMR4198 would that be?

Do you know of anyone that cares to share their 100yd results with setup similar to mine, e.g. 405gr lead, Xlox lube, 18" Marlin carbine? I'm anxious to see how others have done.

2300fps? That's gotta be a mega thumper, eh.

[44man]

I based it on the spin I get from my BFR revolver, 1 in 14". Most accurate 45-70 I ever shot. It has done 2-1/2" at 500 yards. 1" targets at 100 are easy. It shoots best at 1630 fps. My spin is 83,829 rpm's, 317 gr.
A heavier boolit will not get as much. I have only gone to 448 gr boolits and it is stable.

[Nrut]

Walster,
People are shooting 405gr. bullets using 4198 in Marlins all the time!
I would pay no mind to those who say 4198 is the wrong powder or the Marlin twist rate is wrong..
My experience is with 2 GG going back to 2005 or 2006, 10 + years..
I started with a 400gr. Mt.Mold bullet and 30grs. of H4198 and worked my way up to 38grs. in one gr. increments..
"Three shot" groups @ 100m
The largest group was 2.37" and the smallest was 1.19"..
I retested the the powder charges that gave to best groups to confirm again using 3 shot groups..
Then I shot 5 shot groups and everything went to hell opening up to as large as 5.5" if I didn't let the barrel cool down..
Other load particulars:
>Starline case
>2 different primers, WLR & Fed210..
>OAL 2.43-2.55"
> Sized .459-.460"
>Lubes = LBT Blue, Speed Green, & Lyman Super Moly
>Alloy ACWW & WDWW
>I used a 4 & 6 power scope..

I can't recommend one alloy or component over another, but my best 5 shot group 1.58" was shot with a OAL of 2.43"
You might try a different OAL if you haven't already done so..

I have since gone on to other powders & bullets..
Can't say any of them shot any better or worse than the Mt. Mold/H4198 loads..

If you are going to shoot 5 shot or more groups let the barrel cool down completely after 3 shots..
If in the end you can't find sub 2 MOA then I would look at the rifle itself..
There are threads on the "Marlin Forum" on how to accurize these buggers..

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/336/86355-m-l-macpherson-accurizing-factory-rifle.html

[Walstr]

Walster,
People are shooting 405gr. bullets using 4198 in Marlins all the time!
I would pay no mind to those who say 4198 is the wrong powder or the Marlin twist rate is wrong..
My experience is with 2 GG going back to 2005 or 2006, 10 + years..
I started with a 400gr. Mt.Mold bullet and 30grs. of H4198 and worked my way up to 38grs. in one gr. increments..
"Three shot" groups @ 100m
The largest group was 2.37" and the smallest was 1.19"..
I retested the the powder charges that gave to best groups to confirm again using 3 shot groups..
Then I shot 5 shot groups and everything went to hell opening up to as large as 5.5" if I didn't let the barrel cool down..
Other load particulars:
>Starline case
>2 different primers, WLR & Fed210..
>OAL 2.43-2.55"
> Sized .459-.460"
>Lubes = LBT Blue, Speed Green, & Lyman Super Moly
>Alloy ACWW & WDWW
>I used a 4 & 6 power scope..

I can't recommend one alloy or component over another, but my best 5 shot group 1.58" was shot with a OAL of 2.43"
You might try a different OAL if you haven't already done so..

I have since gone on to other powders & bullets..
Can't say any of them shot any better or worse than the Mt. Mold/H4198 loads..

If you are going to shoot 5 shot or more groups let the barrel cool down completely after 3 shots..
If in the end you can't find sub 2 MOA then I would look at the rifle itself..
There are threads on the "Marlin Forum" on how to accurize these buggers..

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/336/86355-m-l-macpherson-accurizing-factory-rifle.html

Thanks Nrut;

My last session used 35gr IMR4198 max. before range closed down, see response #55 pics; now have to wait 'till 1-20, which is just as well, 'cause as 44MAN also suggests, I'm shootin' too slow. I'll load several batches of 35gr-40gr to be ready with 'faster' loads. I'm keeping the forearm off 'till I'm done; then put it back on & see what happens eh.

My COAL is about 2.55" & boolit is a "bore rider", sized to .461", COWW w/2% extra Tin, water quenched, Xlox lubed.
185391

I learned my lesson re: hot barrel syndrome...brought my shots down & left 6+" & was chasing my tail w/scope adjustments!! Guess I was having way too much fun that day & forgot about the science, eh. Now I'm shooting 3 shot groups in about 2 minutes; barrel stays barely warm after 30min. (course it was 14deg that day LOL)

I'm anxious: to get to the range, know Trump is sworn in, & the Packers are ready for Falcons! Brother, that Dallas game was a nail biter!!!

[44man]

I found even 50 fps makes a difference. Your boolit shows very good marks. It is long so a little more speed and a better lube should improve it. X Lox is like poop with X Lax. You don't know lube results yet. It is astounding.

[Walstr]

I found even 50 fps makes a difference. Your boolit shows very good marks. It is long so a little more speed and a better lube should improve it. X Lox is like poop with X Lax. You don't know lube results yet. It is astounding.
Don't understand "You don't know lube results yet. It is astounding." You use a "lubrisizer" & with what, 2500, Reds Lube?

[44man]

Don't understand "You don't know lube results yet. It is astounding." You use a "lubrisizer" & with what, 2500, Reds Lube?
Felix for all, revolver to rifles. Glen has great lubes too. It is something to test with each caliber. Glen makes the best lubes and he is a friend but realize he sells what guys want most. I don't blame him at all but some want lubes that should be tossed. If you want pig snot I would sell it. I can find deer pellets if you are hungry. Does it mean you will live?

[Silverboolit]

Did you check your scope?? May have gone bad.

[Walstr]

Did you check your scope?? May have gone bad.

Now it is...arrrgh. But I'll be posting 95% of todays range results.

[Walstr]

You fellas had the right idear, speed'em up! It was foggy, 36 deg. & calm. (3rd week in January! I like global warming whilst I reside at elev. 535') Components did not change from orig. posting, except tried #12 target using factory Remington, 405gr, soft point. I found my scope was max'd "UP", so used elevation Hash Marks as noted; adjusted Windage once, 8 x 1/4 minute clicks starting with target #3.

I see a nice range of loads that work for me. I can standardize @ maybe 36.5gr IMR4198 & probably not be too concerned about temperature effects on velocity. We'll see.

Some scope element got loose, so while it's in the mail for R&R I'll install my ladder sight & see what I can accomplish standing (leaning) against the shooting bench. Now the real practice ( & fun) can commence. I'm curious how I can ultimately do with a "2 quick follow-up shots" scenario. I must say 38gr+ is in thumper territory.

185698 185699 185700 185701

185702 185703 185704 185705

185696 185697

[Walstr]

It was suggested my home brew boolits may vary too much in weight & I should weigh & segregate them. Here's a sampling of my 405's after wiping Xlox from the nose.

[Walstr]

It was suggested my home brew boolits may vary too much in weight & I should weigh & segregate them. Here's a sampling of my 405's after wiping Xlox from the nose.

186131
Here's a tally of 32 I was handling: (while listening to the Steelers lose like the Packers just did...arrrgh)
401gr - 1 = 3.2%
402gr -10 = 31.2%
403gr - 9 = 28.1%
404gr - 9 = 28.1%
405gr - 3 = 9.4%
If I'm inclined to "load" only the 402gr-405gr castings, that's only a .5% variation in weight & 87% of 'production'. I have NO idea what .5% variance in weight means to you bench shooters, but seems most acceptable to me & my purposes. An interesting endeavor nonetheless.

Update:
I then weighed the 50 remaining pills I had, with results similar to above. Then I chucked the 405's into my bench top drill press & machined the bottom with edge of a chisel 'till it fell into 404gr territory. The light ones went into the "remelt" can.

Sent in my Vortex Crossfire II scope & should receive another by next Wed. This wkend I'll be calibrating my "M-95 LONG RANGE SIGHT, 3/8" Dovetail" ladder sight with another set of 'test loads' from 36.5gr-38.5gr IMR4198. Now to see what I can do without optics.

[44man]

NOT, you will not see anything at all.
Beware of max scope adjustments. The closer to center on a scope the better. Bases need changed or shimmed to prevent scope damage. Yes, you can kill a scope run to limits.
To shoot long range with my 45-70 rifle I machined a tapered base.