loading PC boolits data?

[georgerc]

I should probably ask this question here, how do you treat PC boolits? as cast, jacketed or somewhere in between?

I loaded jacketed and plated, never cast, read about flaring the case mouth a bit more to avoid shaving, size them .002 over the barrel etc.

How about powdercoated, the .002 oversize still applies? coating included? do you use cast powder charges, jacketed or somewhere in between like plated? size B4 coating? after? both?

any input much appreciated, haven't come across those details in other posts

[OptimusPanda]

I have found the velocity variance between powder coat and lubrisized cast bullets to almost totally overlap. I treat them as cast bullets (as far as load data and sizing). If anything in my testing the PC is just a hair faster than the normal boolits for the same load.

[Bzcraig]

I always use cast data

[georgerc]

how much does the PC add to the diameter? the .002 oversize still applies, does not shave the PC?

[OS OK]

I use 'cast data' and 'same or next heavier weight' and 'as close' to the profile as I can find (looking at the contact area of the drive bands) for load data.

I size then PC and size again hoping to end up with a uniform thickness of 'PC Jacket'.

In the 'autos' I size to bore and use softer than usual Pb. Revolvers are unique unto themselves.

[jcren]

Yes, .002 over is about right. Most size after pc, as the pc is so slick it makes sizing easier. As long as you don't have a sharp edge of burr on the did, it shouldn't shave pc.

[hometownhero]

I have just used regular jacketed data for mine. I am just starting to coat my own cast bullets now. I had previously bought cast powder coated and just used normal jacketed bullet data.

[Bama]

Best to start at cast bullet charges and work your way up. You will find that the alloy is normally your limit on velocity. There are some good threads on adding copper to make the bullet hold together at the higher velocities. In the upper end of velocities the powder will be the final variable. How the pressure ramps up upon ignition will have a major effect on accuracy. You will be looking for a powder that continues to more gently build pressure as bullet goes down barrel. Velocities may equal a hotter powder but it will be significantly more accurate. Keep good notes.

[georgerc]

I use 'cast data' and 'same or next heavier weight' and 'as close' to the profile as I can find (looking at the contact area of the drive bands) for load data.

I size then PC and size again hoping to end up with a uniform thickness of 'PC Jacket'.

In the 'autos' I size to bore and use softer than usual Pb. Revolvers are unique unto themselves.

can you elaborate a bit on this, for example one of my projects is loading for a 357 revolver, I slugged it right at 357, I have previously loaded plated bullets for it using cast data, for the most part it worked out good, light shooting 125 gr, accurate at 7-10 yards, however today I got a squib, good thing I knew about that and recognized it right away.

they were loaded with titegroup, which for a light 3.4-3.6 gr if memory serves, its hardly any powder at all in that case, likely what happened the powder was too far from the primer, I am not doing that again, with such a heavy low volume powder I would not load any below max cast charge.

now I do have win 231, 800x, and trailboss on hand, I bought the 800x because I noticed for some calibers it called for most powder in my data, trailboss I am told its popular in revolvers, not aware why exactly maybe you guys can elaborate, 231 I believe is on par with titegroup, I picked that one up just because, I think I have some other powder I have to look

[Bama]

You may want to look at 2400. I use it with Lyman 358156 gas checked and PC. It is more accurate than I can shoot. 1260 fps from a 2" Ruger. It speaks with authority.

[OS OK]

I don't have anything for you in those powders, haven't been able to get those in years except for the Trail Boss and it's OK. I'm not a TB fan, don't shoot cowboy style meets. I load my handguns to hit hard as designed and don't make plinking rounds of light charges.

I use a lot of TiteGroup and don't have any problems with the small weights...I make dang sure that my throw is throwing accurately then keep checking every 15 rounds or so until I develop some trust in throwing the charge as weighed.

In pistols and revolvers everything I do these days is PC'd...in pistols I size for bore size, in revolvers I size under the cylinder diameter by .0005 - .001".

[HeavyHev]

I personally load to cast specifications as they generally require less powder. I try to load on the lighter side for competitions so that is advantageous for my application. If all you have is jacket data, you can just take 10% off and you will be in the ballpark.

[248dm]

After Sandyhook, and the subsequent gun ownership scare, in desperation for some kind of powder I bought a big jug of Trailboss at scalper prices at a gun show.

It is a fluffy, doughnut shaped powder. It needs to settle in the powder hopper to dispense accurately. I'll load the hopper, tap the sides, come back the next day to load in my Dillon 550B. I'm using TB for .45 acp, 38 and 9mm. I load to max book value. a little bit of compression results. This is where ES and SD are best.

[OS OK]

After Sandyhook, and the subsequent gun ownership scare, in desperation for some kind of powder I bought a big jug of Trailboss at scalper prices at a gun show.

It is a fluffy, doughnut shaped powder. It needs to settle in the powder hopper to dispense accurately. I'll load the hopper, tap the sides, come back the next day to load in my Dillon 550B. I'm using TB for .45 acp, 38 and 9mm. I load to max book value. a little bit of compression results. This is where ES and SD are best.

If you wipe the hopper well with the anti-static dryer sheets you will draw off most of the static electricity that makes TB so fluffy and sticking all up and down in the hopper. It'll sorta relax down into the body of the fill.

It prolly depends on your plastic as the mfgrs. might use different standards but the plastic in my LnL is so staticky that the little donuts will fluff up and almost float like they were in space...when filling I've actually had them jumping completely out of the hopper...strange huh?

[waksupi]

I load them as cast, and generally have had to drop the charge weight slightly to achieve the same accuracy.

[georgerc]

for whatever reason I can't post a picture, may be something wrong on my end, anyways, I got my 358 sizing die, pushed some through and they came out to about 357-357.5, then I powdercoated them HF red, pretty straight forward, nothing fancy there, some imperfections but shootable, thing is the powdercoat added quite a bit the OD, after the coat they were consistently measuring .360-.361, I pounded one through my revolvers muzzle and not only it shaved the PC but chipped off a piece of the bottom driving band, it may have also gotten wider from the initial pounding, I than sized one and pounded it, better but the pc still shaved off, granted this was from the muzzle, backwards, I confirmed with these slugs and others the bore diameter on this gun is .357, not sure about that .002 over with these boolits, I am thinking for this gun I should run them through the sizer after the PC as well, that may explain the earlier post about sizing under the cylinder bore, maybe you can elaborate on that.

I'm thinking for the revolver I am set with this sizing die, .357 after the PC, any thoughts?

not sure how to go about the 9mm, the one barrel I slugged came out at .355, I am thinking I need another .356 die for it, seems to me that the PC boolits need to be about the size of the bore, but what do I know? hence I am out here looking for guidance.

[georgerc]

I don't have anything for you in those powders, haven't been able to get those in years except for the Trail Boss and it's OK. I'm not a TB fan, don't shoot cowboy style meets. I load my handguns to hit hard as designed and don't make plinking rounds of light charges.

I use a lot of TiteGroup and don't have any problems with the small weights...I make dang sure that my throw is throwing accurately then keep checking every 15 rounds or so until I develop some trust in throwing the charge as weighed.

In pistols and revolvers everything I do these days is PC'd...in pistols I size for bore size, in revolvers I size under the cylinder diameter by .0005 - .001".

I have lots of titegroup on hand, matter of fact it is all I used so far, I weigh all of my charges and make sure they are consistent to a tenth of a grain,I previously loaded some berrys plated 125 gr at 3.4gr and 3.6gr, middle of the road cast data, with this powder there was hardly any in that huge case, they worked fine for the most part but really light loads I noticed, so the next batch I loaded same plated bullets at middle of the road jacketed, about 4.4-4.5 gr, liked those better and they shot fine also,

the other day I had a chance to go out and I was going through some leftover 3.4 gr titegroup loaded and got a squib, my guess is that tiny bit of powder was too far from the primer, part of the reason I got some other powders was for those large cases, Acurate #2 I believe is the other powder I have on hand, don't know much about it, picked it up to try it at some point along with the trail boss, the 800x I picked up for the 25 acp, in my data it showed this powder as the largest charge by weight, for that little cartridge I loaded some before with titegroup a mere 1.2 gr

[sparky45]

You won't get any shaving of the PC if you properly expand the case neck, which you should already be doing with plain cast.



how much does the PC add to the diameter? the .002 oversize still applies, does not shave the PC?

[OS OK]

I have lots of titegroup on hand, matter of fact it is all I used so far, I weigh all of my charges and make sure they are consistent to a tenth of a grain,I previously loaded some berrys plated 125 gr at 3.4gr and 3.6gr, middle of the road cast data, with this powder there was hardly any in that huge case, they worked fine for the most part but really light loads I noticed, so the next batch I loaded same plated bullets at middle of the road jacketed, about 4.4-4.5 gr, liked those better and they shot fine also,

the other day I had a chance to go out and I was going through some leftover 3.4 gr titegroup loaded and got a squib, my guess is that tiny bit of powder was too far from the primer, part of the reason I got some other powders was for those large cases, Acurate #2 I believe is the other powder I have on hand, don't know much about it, picked it up to try it at some point along with the trail boss, the 800x I picked up for the 25 acp, in my data it showed this powder as the largest charge by weight, for that little cartridge I loaded some before with titegroup a mere 1.2 gr

3.4 grains of TiteGroup is not that small of a charge, I mean...if you look at it in a scale pan. When you drop that in a .357 case I know it kinda disappears in the bottom but that charge should ignite without any problems no matter where it is in the case. There is prolly a 45 FPS variation if you intentionally set it off at the extreme front or to the rear of the case but pistol shooting at a horizontally placed target that powder oughta be spread from front to rear. I can't offer an explanation for your squib other than you just somehow neglected to charge that particular case.
Are you having trust problems with the powder throw doing it's job?
I don't remember whether you described your press or throw so I'm just going to spitwad here but...I think I'd try to mount a press light where you can see into each case as you place the projectile and go to seat it. That won't confirm the exact weight of the charge but it will tell you if the charge is even there. Depending on the press you might have to get creative in lighting it. Need some pictures of your work space and press to come up with any useful suggestions...

[georgerc]

I use a single stage with a lee auto drum, I weigh the case first, zero it out and charge than weigh again using a cheap Hornady digital scale, if I am off by a tenth of a grain I dump it and throw another charge, I doubt it but I guess there is the possibility of having messed up my routine, I do visually check each case as I go, I set a projectile in and seat them a batch at a time.

as for the comment about shaving the PC, I experienced it while slugging my barrel using one of the PC boolits, the unsized one didn't look too pretty, granted I pounded the boolit backwards from the muzzle just wanted to try it see what happens, the question that rose is weather I should size them again after the PC as they turned out rather large. I went ahead and resized that batch. the second batch I checked a few and it would appear the PC may not be quite as thick, still I get a .3595 sometimes as a minimum, .360-.361 generally

so with this particular die lee 358 it sizes about .357-.3575 my revolver slugs at 357, Im thinking resized after the PC would be best, if I only size b4 the pc they turn out a tad too big, as for my 9mm not sure yet it slugs at 355, I know you guys suggest .002 over but with my slugging experiments, that did not look too good, granted I was more like .004 over, just working with what I got, I may need another 356 die for the 9mm

so what is different about seating cast boolits? I read about it a while back you have to flare the mouth a bit more than jacketed? these are lee 358-125, they do have a crimp groove so I guess that would determine the seating depth.

[OS OK]

Are you expanding and using the auto drum on the single stage both in the same pull?

When you were slugging from the muzzle, that cast was expanding wider with every blow.

Cast, size, PC, size...load.

In the revolver, size the cast to fit snug in the exit side of the cylinder...not where you have to shove them to get them to fit, .0005-.001" clearance.
The forcing cone will re-swage into the throat and into the rifling...its a swaging process from cylinder to throat to bore continually getting a weebit smaller each time.
That'll work fine as long as there are no unusual problems like a tight throat/bore at the barrel thread junction..
Pay attention to your cook time on the PC work, verify the oven temp. with a known good thermometer you calibrated in boiling water. Or, buy a trusted thermometer...

182569

[248dm]

I've had two squibs in 11 years of reloading. All were at a time when I was distracted or in a hurry or when setting up a load. At the time, I could not believe what I had done. It has now been something like 7 years since a squib. Part of my routine is to visualize the powder in the case twice. The last visualisation is when placing the bullet on the case with powder before seating.

There is nothing like a squib to get your juices flowing. Thankfully no double charges yet.

[georgerc]

I use the powderthru expanding die with the autodrum on top and yes I expand the case while throwing a charge at the same time, I weigh the case prior, zero out the scale and verify every charge after it has been thrown, if it is what I wanted I put a bullet on top, and it goes in a tray to be seated next, I doubt I had a low charge, or no charge, but it is a possibility, I read about light primers too, who knows? luckily I had read about this at some point, I could tell right away something did not sound right, I did not have my muffs on and I was shooting at some 4" square pieces of insulation, the different sound and the insulation not bouncing gave it away, it was the first round on a cyl of six, so luckily I stopped, emptied, looked down the bore and sure enough I'm done for the day.

and yes I do realize that slug got wider as I was pounding it, but just for comparison the one that had not been resized was harder to get started and probably expanded even more, made me want to resize one and try it again.

my revolver is machined pretty exact at 357, the cylinder throats and the bore are best I can tell 357, this 358 die works out more like 357.5, but than again there's that possible swaging down as the projectile gets seated, all I read about that points to a custom expander, not sure how my standard Lee will work out, I'd have to check.

I have previously mentioned I bought some factory PPU LRN, my first cast loads ever, and they are pretty much unshootable, I measured them as best as I could most are under 357, even some that measured 357+ just past the case I tried them and they lead bad after a couple shots, there's no telling where that boolit will go next, I tried to pull one but I don't have the hammer thingy, I only have a bullet pulling die and I tried it, wasn't expecting it to work and it didn't, I even tried grabbing the boolit with a pair of pliers all that did was destroy the slug, guess I shall add one impact puller next time I place an order. now that I have some LEE alox, I wonder if it is worth dipping the exposed part of the slug see if these will shoot without messing up my gun in a couple shots.

I am not sure what to do about the 9mm, that one slugs at 355, I have heard about going .002 over which would make this die just right, but than again with my experience slugging this bore with these slugs I am thinking going a little smaller for this one, maybe add a 356 die to my next order, thinking if it works stick with it if not make it larger. any thoughts on that?

[georgerc]

oh and about the baking, I got impatient I did not have a oven thermometer, I did the first batch at 400 they worked fine but I noticed the PC started melting a good while before the oven temp was reached, so the next batches I did them at 350 ( according to the oven), and the PC started melting just a little while before the set temp was reached, they worked fine too, no telling which one is which, neither scraped when sized, I tend to be a little different in my methods and this time I used the PC itself to set the temp just above the melting point.

my oven appears to have a problem, I did not see the fan move at all, not sure if that's why it ended up at the thrift store, but it has 2 elements below and 2 on top, the boolits turned out fine cant tell if there were cold spots or such so I did not even bothered yet to investigate the fan situation.

[OS OK]

Without the fan that oven will develop hot spots. You can see where they affect the boolits by watching what areas of a full tray start to melt before the others.
If you don't follow the PC mfgrs. instructions and cure it correctly then what you get is something less than optimum. When you start seeing long greyish streaks in the grooves of the barrel you will know that they did not cure properly.

[georgerc]

thanks for the tip, I have yet to load any of the ones I made but I will look for those streaks, is that pretty much an indication of PC fouling? any other signs?

I have been watching them as they start melting, 3 batches so far, they all melt at about the same rate, as for the temp, I done the first at 400 per oven display, it appeared that they darkened quite a bit, than again that was my first time, the next 2 I did at 350 honestly not a visible difference other than the oven reached set temp a short while after they were completely melted, I think the HF instructions also say to bake them for about 20 mins, I read on here that 10-15mins is about the norm and saw some examples of overbaked PC too, the thought process was too heat them up just enough to get them to flow, we'll see how they work and go from there, maybe I'll get a thermometer in the mean time and see about that fan.

on another note I had a chance to do some target practice this morning, if you can call it that, same light rounds I loaded a while back, never had a problem when they were fresh, the second cylinder first round, squib again, I had them stored in a plastic box, bullet down for a few months, I'm thinking that little bit of powder in that large of a case, 38 spl, may have settled up by the bullet or something, I doubted messing up the charge in the first place, now I am pretty sure I did not do that twice.

the only other thing I can thing of these are berrys plated 125, and I loaded them with cast data, I have another batch I made shortly after with middle of the road jacketed data, I'll see how those go for comparison, honestly these particular ones that are giving me grief feel really light, compared to factory, I don't have a chrono just seat of the pants, they aren't very loud and hardly any recoil, accurate thou, but it may have something to do with the profile of the straight walled plated bullet vs your typical lubed cast boolit

[OS OK]

Another squib huh? You have me scratching my head...no idea. Unless those are so marginal that the FPS variation is wide enough to include a minimal charge that just won't get them out of the barrel...I really dunnoh?

If you are going to fool around on the edges with low charges I suggest you get a chrony and read what the powder manufacturer says about using minimum loads of that particular brand. Some powders can only be used as suggested by the load data or else you'll get into areas of exponential increases in pressure. You don't want to go there.
I also suggest you start another thread asking for good proven light plinking loads and stick with their recomendations...these guys are more savy than I about reduced loads...I never, never use them.

[Kosh75287]

I have found the velocity variance between powder coat and lubrisized cast bullets to almost totally overlap. I treat them as cast bullets (as far as load data and sizing). If anything in my testing the PC is just a hair faster than the normal boolits for the same load. +1 this and sometimes reducing the charge for best accuracy.

[georgerc]

yeah I'm done with those rounds, I got 10 more, I'm just going to pull those, they were my first loads figured I'd start low and avoid blowing up, got some 42 more HP with a smidge more powder, I may try some of those next just to learn something from it. the biggest confusion was those plated bullets, I asked around but wasn't sure what data to use, hence this time I am doing my due diligence, that's the only reason I brought it up.

Good news is I got 20 empty cases, I have been out of brass for some time, too busy lately, loaded up everything I had but did not have a chance to shoot any, so I'll be loading some of those PC boolits soon

the Hodgdon data is a bit confusing, it would appear the bullet profile has quite a bit to do with it, generally the powder charge is less as the weight goes up, except for the 130gr load they have posted.

3.6gr for a 38 spl looks like a good starting point I'm a little leary starting with the 3.2 min, i'm thinking, but than again a +p or a 357 load with same boolit goes up to 5+gr of titegroup, I'm shooting those out of a 357 mag so I'm thinking I can go much higher, any thoughts?

[georgerc]

double post

[fredj338]

Coated is a cast bullet, so that is the data I use. With identical loads, just going from lubed to PC, my vel are about 20fps higher, within margin of error. I size my coated though.

[georgerc]

I understand thet just with the 38 caliber its an animal in itself, a 38 apecial 125 gr with titegroup for example, I believe it calls for 3.2-3.8 gr, same bullet +P calls for 5 gr, same bullet in a 357 mag case goes up to 5.4gr I believe, so that opens up quite a bit of a range for the same cast boolit, that guess I'll just do some plain 38spl for now

[georgerc]

well I had a chance to do a bit of target practice today, had 18 of those rounds, lee 358-125 rf, about 130gr actually, 3.6 gr of titegroup, pretty good combo, I like them, also had some of those lead PPU 158 gr with me, I had previously smudged some Lee Liquid Alox on the exposed part of the bullet, shot 6 and I did not see a sign of leading, so it must have helped, previously I'd get really bad leading after 2 rounds, and accuracy was out of the question after that.

these reloads were about as accurate as I will ever be, a little louder than the factory rounds, no sign of overpressure, actually I still got a bit of blowback, no more than expected, pretty much the same as the factory rounds, now I got 30 cases I just finished cleaning, time to do it again, I have some 000 buck, I'm thinking about some duplex loads next.

[pistol]

thanks for the tip, I have yet to load any of the ones I made but I will look for those streaks, is that pretty much an indication of PC fouling? any other signs?

I have been watching them as they start melting, 3 batches so far, they all melt at about the same rate, as for the temp, I done the first at 400 per oven display, it appeared that they darkened quite a bit, than again that was my first time, the next 2 I did at 350 honestly not a visible difference other than the oven reached set temp a short while after they were completely melted, I think the HF instructions also say to bake them for about 20 mins, I read on here that 10-15mins is about the norm and saw some examples of overbaked PC too, the thought process was too heat them up just enough to get them to flow, we'll see how they work and go from there, maybe I'll get a thermometer in the mean time and see about that fan.

on another note I had a chance to do some target practice this morning, if you can call it that, same light rounds I loaded a while back, never had a problem when they were fresh, the second cylinder first round, squib again, I had them stored in a plastic box, bullet down for a few months, I'm thinking that little bit of powder in that large of a case, 38 spl, may have settled up by the bullet or something, I doubted messing up the charge in the first place, now I am pretty sure I did not do that twice.

the only other thing I can thing of these are berrys plated 125, and I loaded them with cast data, I have another batch I made shortly after with middle of the road jacketed data, I'll see how those go for comparison, honestly these particular ones that are giving me grief feel really light, compared to factory, I don't have a chrono just seat of the pants, they aren't very loud and hardly any recoil, accurate thou, but it may have something to do with the profile of the straight walled plated bullet vs your typical lubed cast boolit
Not teaching anything, but you made me think of two things:
1. If the squibs you got were relatively old, I would suspect the bullet bases were contaminated with some lubricating grease/wax from the sizer. Authoritative writers suggest wiping the base of bullets before storing or seating them, as sizing grease will slowly but surely kill the powder (hence the squibs).
2. Powder Coating does not only need to melt but also to crosslink to become thoroughly solid (forgive the hi-faluting speech, I am a chemist). Temperature and exposure time control needs to be accurate. If they darken they are probably starting to char. My advice is not to trust the oven thermometer (a cheap kitchen oven thermometer will be better in any case) and above all DON'T use the grill/top heating element. Pre-heat your oven, checking the temperature on the accurate thermometer inside, then stick the boolits in for the time required by the PC, each powder might be different.

[georgerc]

the squibs were plated boolits, I think I am on to something there but every time I question published data I get **** for it, the hodgdon data I used appears to be a bit funky, same charge for a 125gr as the 158gr only shows about 8000 cup, about half the operating pressure for a 38spl, granted I should have loaded them hotter since they are plated , but I figured I'd start low and I am pretty sure that charge is not enough

[georgerc]

here's an odd discovery, today I done some casting, and threw those 3 squibs in there, and guess what, they floated, didn't melt, not sure what temp I had but my Lee 10 lbs was at about 4, all the COWW alloy was melted, first I thought the plating must keep them together, so I tried to squash one with my spoon and it was pretty much still solid, so I started skimming and sure enough all three were accounted for, pretty odd, haven't tried a wire cutter on them yet, I'll dig them out tomorrow and see how hard they are

[pistol]

Zinc?

[runfiverun]

titegroup will degrade powder coating and stick to the base of the P/C boolit.
you also need to bump the load with P/C about 4% to get it back to your normal cast data because of the slickness.

[fredj338]

here's an odd discovery, today I done some casting, and threw those 3 squibs in there, and guess what, they floated, didn't melt, not sure what temp I had but my Lee 10 lbs was at about 4, all the COWW alloy was melted, first I thought the plating must keep them together, so I tried to squash one with my spoon and it was pretty much still solid, so I started skimming and sure enough all three were accounted for, pretty odd, haven't tried a wire cutter on them yet, I'll dig them out tomorrow and see how hard they are
The plating pretty much protects the bullets from melting, especially at lower temps like position 4 on a lee pot. Either smash them to break the jacket or crank the heat up. An alloy will melt at a lower temp than pure lead, which is pretty much what the core is in a plated bullet.

[fredj338]

titegroup will degrade powder coating and stick to the base of the P/C boolit.
you also need to bump the load with P/C about 4% to get it back to your normal cast data because of the slickness.

I actually find my PC coated bullets are a tiny bit faster than uncoated, within the normal variation, about 20fps. COuld be powder specific, but that is my exp in several calibers using WST.