.54 cal inline patched RB powder load

[wyrmzr]

I took my muzzleloader out today to sight it in; starting out with 80 grains of powder, using cotton muslin for patches, and my own hand cast .535 RB.
It did great at 25 yards with 80 grains, but wasn't even on paper once I stepped beyond 25 yards. So, I started to slowly work the powder up, until I was at 140 grains of pyrodex with this 1:48 twist patched RB.
It finally gave me a group that was basically one jagged hole at 100 yards. This was with Triple 7 powder.
I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't a risky load, and load data for .54 RB is hard to come by. I know it's probably been posted in here before, but so far I can't find much for load data in the way of .54 PRB.

[Loudenboomer]

Most of my .54 round balls have been fired with real Goex Black. I base my advice upon that. The old timers said gently cup your hand and pour powder slowly on top of the ball when it's covered that's how much powder you use. It takes a small amount to cover a 36 cal. ball and much more to cover a 58 ect. I think 140 gr pyrodex is way to much powder for a patched round ball. It will Blow the patch. That's the other thing is proper patch fitment. You may need to experiment with patch thickness and Boolet size. .530 ball or .535 .Ten thousandths patch or 15 ect. collect a few patches after firing and let us know. Learn to read patches watch for blow threw. 90 grains of Goex FF is just about right in most 54's. Happy shootin.

[Loudenboomer]

Forgot to ask. Is this a side lock gun?

[wyrmzr]

No, a Traditions inline. I think the Buckstalker? I'll try stepping it back to 120, but obviously 80 wasn't working.
Oh, and the balls I cast are .535, averaging around 225 grains. The patch material is actually about .011 thickness, which seems to be a good fit; tight enough to need a ball starter, but not so tight I have to pound it down the barrel.
*edit*
I guess this would be a side lock; it's the Buck Hunter inline.

[wyrmzr]

And for the record, I should give some additional history on this gun; the other day I was trying 80 grains, which did well at 25 yards, placing the shots in the same hole. But, when I moved to 50 yards, I couldn't hit the target at all.
HOWEVER, I wasn't using the muslin cloth at that point; I was using t-shirt cotton, and decided to get away from that, since it is prone to stretching.
Today, I had basically the same results, but just slightly better with the muslin and 80 grains. This time, I moved from 25 yards to 100 yards, and wasn't on paper, but as I bumped the charge up, I began to get better results. For the record, the paper in this case was about 3 ft x 3 ft. With 90 grains, it was still more like patterning a shotgun than grouping a rifle, but it did hit the edges of the paper. The more powder I put behind it, the tighter the groups got.
I've tried other materials for patches, always cotton, ranging in thickness from .010 to .025, and even .015 has me pounding the ball down the barrel.

[rodwha]

From what I gather a fast twist inline can possibly shoot patched balls with fairly light charges. I have no idea if yours is a fast twist, but I've not heard of an inline that wasn't.

Is this just out of interest?

*EDIT*
Just checked out their site. It's an inline. A sidelock is offset and uses a percussion cap and not a primer. All of what I saw is .50 cal. Is this an older model? I've not seen an inline in anything but .50 cal.

[Loudenboomer]

Well you cant argue with success. Sounds like the heavier charges are shooting for you. 54's usually do well at 120 gr with sabot and conical bullets. 120 is usually where patches give up. 100 grains Geox worked for me but in my gun 90 was always more accurate. When shooting for groups I jag 1 damp patch (windex works great) after each round to keep things clean and consistent. For store bought patches I've had the best luck with T/C bore butter pillow tick patches. They seem a little tougher than most. Others will disagree but most guns shoot best with pure (or almost) soft lead. What do you use for a primer?

[wyrmzr]

Yeah, I got it used a few years ago. So it's older, but not ancient. 1:48 twist, not unusual for .54 cal, but not good for sabots, from what I've seen.

[wyrmzr]

This runs a 209 primer; just put a new integrated breech plug in that has both the primer nipple and breech plug as one unit; the original design was a 2 piece.
And of course my cast balls are pure lead, or very close.

[rodwha]

If it's a 1:48" twist it ought to do ok with a ball. That's what Lyman uses with a few of their sidelock guns. But then slower seems preferable.

Im guessing you don't have a manual. Have you looked to see what the max is? For the Lyman sidelocks it's 120 grns of 2F and 100 grns of 3F. But their .50 cal inline can handle three 50 grn pellets with a heavier projectile.

[rodwha]

Were I you I'd contact Traditions and see what they say.

[Loudenboomer]

Std. 209 shot shell primers work ok in most guns. It is possible for Std. primers to move the charge before ignition in some guns. Muzzle loader 209's seem a little softer and accuracy improves.

[Edward]

My 54 TC likes 90gr 2F ,535PRB with a linen mink oil lubed patch.The thing I found is 2 lubed wads under the PRB would give me 1686-1720 fps with a S.D.of 25 (6shot)ragged hole 50yds and2-3in at 100yd with a Leopold scope,yet if I used(forgot) just one wad I would get higher SDs and grouping at a different poi and a flyer every time .My accuracy improved using less powder and I can only assume that the patch is being protected and getting a better seal with 2 wads.You might want to try a couple of wads under your PRB .

[Loudenboomer]

wyrmzr I see your NE Iowa. I used to pheasant hunt in Clarmont and eat huge hamburgers in Gunder.
P.S. check out Farm Sermons by C.S.Lewis. Good Preaching.

[wyrmzr]

181942
For the record, this is what I ended up with this afternoon; the jagged hole has 3 PRBs through it, but at 140 grains of FFG equivalent. That nick on the right is from 90 grains, below that, you can see a hold that has 2 bullets that siamesed; one had 140 grains, the other 120, with scope adjustments between.

[wyrmzr]

Well, I'll get out here in the next few days and try some lower powder loads with the PRB again. I've got two weeks before the late season starts for muzzy anyway.
Only down side is I may have to cast up some more RB... As if that's really a problem. I can cast 80 of them in an hour, so that should give me plenty to play with.

[rodwha]

I've often read as a good starting load to use as many grains as caliber. Many say to increase 5 grns at a time, but I feel that's a bit tedious and would go by 10's until I found some real improvement followed by a decrease and work there.

Have you not tried conicals/sabots? I'm guessing you have shallow grooves meant for such.

My 1:48" .50 cal Lyman Deerstalker hasn't done so well with PRB, though I merely broke it in and didn't really try much (50, 70, and 100) and mostly just used 70 as it was a compromise between something worthwhile without using powder too quickly. I haven't tried various patches or lubes, nor 2F.

But I bought some cast 320 grn Lee REAL just to try as I was both curious about recoil as something useful for large game and used my typical 70 grn 3F load and found some nice nearly touching shots. I'm wondering if I should just use a bit of overkill and shoot our small TX deer with this heavy elk killing conical.

[mooman76]

Check your fired patches. If they aren't holding up you likely won't get good grouping. Reading your patches will tell you allot. They should or almost should look good enough to use again. Sometimes an over powder wad helps. You shouldn't have to use that heavy of a charge for that twist rate.

[archeryrob]

Id have to agree your charge seem awfully high. Shooting my hawken 1:48 with only 65 grains of GOEX on PRB and 80 grains on 240 grain sabots. My daughter uses my inline with 100 grains of Pyrodex with a 300 grain bullet and is very accurate.

People have always said the inline have too fast a twist, ie 1:28, and destroy the patch. Are you sure you have a 1:48 twist as google only turns up a 1:28 twist for the Buckstalker. I'd check the twist rate for sure and find patches to see if they are destroyed and letting gas past resulting in accuracy lost.

[archeryrob]

From their website and they recommend sabots


#37 What is the best type of projectile for my muzzleloader?The type of projectile will vary depending on the muzzleloader you own. If you own a fast twist barrel (1:28") such as our Pursuit, Evolution, Lightning Bolt, Tracker or Buchhunter, the best projectile is a saboted bullet. We recommend the Smackdown saboted bullet. Our 250 grain A1824 or A1826. For 300 grain A1825 or A1827. If you own a muzzleloader with a 1:48" twist barrel, we recommend that you shoot a conical lead bullet, such as our Ultimate Conical bullets A1265 or a saboted style bullet such as our Smackdown or the Hornady XTP Hunter bullets. If you own a muzzleloader with a 1:66" twist barrel, we recommend that you shoot a patched round ball, such as our Swaged Lead Round Ball (A1241, A1244, A1449, A1242, A1245, A1263, A1243). Choose the correct caliber for your firearm.

[wyrmzr]

Just got back a little bit ago from the range; tried powder charges from 70 grains to 125, and none of them are consistent.
The issue from here is that I'm hoping that I can get either some of the sabots or conical bullets before the season starts; work has been slow, and I'm on a long waiting list for a disability hearing, so money is tight.
That raises the question of whether I'm pushing the limits of the firearm by running 140 grains of Ffg equivalent down what is a modern inline. If I'm risking a kaboom, then I may wind up skipping the muzzy season altogether this year. I do recall seeing online that modern inlines should have no problem with 100-150 grains of Ffg, I think off of Chuck Hawks' site? If I'm not risking a kaboom, then I'll be using a lot of powder, but it will certainly do the job if I can't afford to pick up sabots or conicals to experiment with before the season starts in two weeks.

[Good Cheer]

Might try a card wad or something over the powder to take the place of the solids that are providing protection to the patch.

This might sound goofy but it might work with lighter charges. At 140 grains that large of a charge of powder might be at the point where the unburned mass is a shield (almost like cream of wheat) just long enough to make the difference it needs. Maybe with lighter charges you could achieve the shielding in another manner.
Not saying I'm right about this but just that it's worth looking at.

[Loudenboomer]

I think good cheer is right. With a round ball the weight of the total charge is so light that a full strength 209 is pushing the charge before ignition.
I think that's why consistency improves with such a heavy powder charge. But the tail is waging the dog. Some things I'd try. For prb I'd try a muzzle loader specific primer If that works that would be easiest. Conicals or sabbots May shoot best in your gun. I had 325 gr speer 50 AE bullet shooting good with 120 gr pyrodex. Lee REAL boolits have been OK. Buying this and that to give it a try could be expensive. Don't want to see any one skip Muzzle loader season because money is tight. I think I've still got a real mold I could lend you. I could send a hand full of bullets and sabbots to try. I bet others could too let us know if we can help.

[wyrmzr]

Right now I'll try just about anything. Last time I took a deer with this gun was a couple of years ago, he was only 30 yards away, and even then, I aimed for his chest but hit him in the neck. The kill was still good, since the ball went through his jugular and he bled out in seconds, but I think at that point I was dealing with not just the wrong powder load, but a broken scope.

[wyrmzr]

Just talked to one of my local FFLs, and he may have some leftover sabots for the .54. If he does, then I'll at least be able to test the thing out and see if I can get decent groups.
Hopefully I'll know for sure tonight if he has them, and try them out tomorrow.
He's also checking another local gun shop to see if they happen to have an 54 caliber supplies; it's kind of off the beaten path, but if they have what I need, it's certainly worth checking out.

[wyrmzr]

182167
Well, I think I got it fixed. Today I went out to the range with some thicker patches (.014 compressed rather than .011). I almost had to break into the range, as the front gate lock was iced over, but a run into town for some windshield washer fluid fixed the frozen lock.
At that point, I was running close to the end of allowed shooting hours, so I pulled one of the tables out at around 55-60 yards, and loaded the gun up with 100 grains of Pyrodex, along with my PRB, only difference being the patch thickness.
I trained my scope on the bullseye of a target that was left behind by someone else, and pulled the trigger. I had to actually walk up to the target to confirm that, yes, the ball had gone right through the bullseye without me having to make adjustments to the scope. Went back to the bench, loaded up another 100 grains of powder, and once again, hit the bullseye.
At that point, shooting time was over, but I'll say I'm impressed. Just a difference of .003 inches in patch thickness was enough to get consistency. I may even be able to use less than 100 grains of powder, but for now, I'm going to run with what works; I'm not going to have many deer beyond 50 yards anyway where I tend to hunt.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Always pick up your patches and inspect them for tears/holes. Its the gas seal and if its not sealed, accuracy isn't going to be that great.

1:48 twist is a great twist for patched round ball, 70-80-90gr Goex 2f or Olde Eynsford 2fg and Jim Shockeys Gold are my standard charges for target shooting and hunting.

Patch material is key. Normally in my CVA & Traditions sidehammers, .018 to .020" patch thickness is perfect with a .490 round ball.

[rodwha]

I've used 0.015-016" patches and these take a little effort to seat with a short starter. My bore is supposedly about 0.502", but I've not cared to check it.

[koger]

Most fast twist ML rifles, will only shoot PRB's at low charges. The heavier charges causes stripping/jetting of gases by the patch, and bad accuracy follows. Usually about 40-50 grains should make it shoot good.