Help! Getting better accuracy?

[JAbee]

HELP!!

I know weighing out each boolit and grouping them together will help with accuracy, but how much does the brass manufacture matter? I'm checking to make sure case length, COL, seating depth, and powder charges are all the same. I'm still getting shots all over the place. I've slugged my barrel, sized the bullets .001 more than barrel size.

I'm shooting the Springfield XD-M 40 S&W. 175Gn Cast boolit with lee 401-175-TC (Two Cav) using COWW+2% Tin. with 6.0 Gn Power Pistol and Winchester WSP primers. Putting a mid crimp on them using the Lee factory crimp. (Factory ammo shoots great in this gun)

[JWT]

If you are using mixed brass there will be pressure variations due to differing internal case volumes. I always segregate by headstamp for handgun. For some rifles I also weigh the brass.

[HeavyMetal]

I saw no mention of boolit lube, suspect Lee also?

Good suggestion to separate brass by head stamp, new or old factory crimp die? The old design will seat boollits new won't old one real easy to over crimp with.

[runfiverun]

I suspect a diameter and a speed problem.
try backing things down to the 850 fps area and trying again.

[Yodogsandman]

Try pulling a few boolits from finished rounds and measuring them to be sure that they're not being re-sized down by the crimp.

I don't load for 40 S&W yet but, because it's a high pressure round, I'd water quench the boolits from the mold for a little more hardness.

[243winxb]

Lee factory crimp. Post sizing the bullet smaller? [smilie=s:

[Shiloh]

I second reducing the velocity. As stated, and SOP for consistency, separate components by headstamp. Group boolits, by weight and see.
My crimp consists of closing the belled mouth only. Nothing at all on the boils. Plenty of tension to hold them in.

SHiloh

[Ed_Shot]

My 2 cents: I use a G22 w/LW barrel and I no longer use the Lee 175 gr. or 145 gr boolits because I get obviously (to me) better accuracy with Lyman 170 gr. and 150 gr. I size to .401 w/ WL 2500+ and use the Lee FCD. I have tested and find no difference in accuracy, that I can tell, using a single or mixed headstamp 40 SW brass. I personally don't see any difference over a chrony between single or mixed headstamp 40 SW brass either. Your alloy sounds fine. I don't use Power Pistol but 6.0 gr is obviously a mid-range load. I have tried several different powders for 40 SW and some powder/boolit combinations shoot a whole lot better than others IMHO.

What diameter are you sizing your boolits?
What is the diameter at the case mouth after you crimp?
What's your lube?
What's your COAL?
Are you getting any leading?

[country gent]

Also try experimenting with loads, some powders bullet primer combinations just arnt liked by a certain firearm for some reason or another. Star out around the starting load and work up let the pistol tell you what it likes.

[John Boy]

Help! Getting better accuracy?
Is it the handgun or is it the shooter?
What are your groups and at what distance: shooting modern or traditional, offhand or from rest?

[M-Tecs]

Most Springfield XD-M 40 S&W are not accurate enough to tell the difference in sorting brass. Same for weighing bullets. Bullet size, alloy, lub and velocity will have a much greater effect on accuracy.

Try a box of match ammo and work to equal the results.

[Recluse]

HELP!!

I know weighing out each boolit and grouping them together will help with accuracy, but how much does the brass manufacture matter? I'm checking to make sure case length, COL, seating depth, and powder charges are all the same. I'm still getting shots all over the place. I've slugged my barrel, sized the bullets .001 more than barrel size.

I'm shooting the Springfield XD-M 40 S&W. 175Gn Cast boolit with lee 401-175-TC (Two Cav) using COWW+2% Tin. with 6.0 Gn Power Pistol and Winchester WSP primers. Putting a mid crimp on them using the Lee factory crimp. (Factory ammo shoots great in this gun)

First off, accept the fact that the 40 S&W is not a tack-driver caliber in terms of accuracy. Second, understand that the combination of rate-of-burn for the powder combined with volume-of-powder can cause wild pressure swings, which will in turn result in wild variances in terms of accuracy.

I cast and reload that same bullet for my SIL and have found that a medium speed burning powder (I use AA#5) works better than a fast-burning powder like Titewad, with all else being equal.

Bear in mind that the entire birth and development of the 40 S&W was a compromise between the size of a 9mm and the velocity of a 45ACP--so naturally, load development will entail the same mindset of compromising and experimentation.

I didn't see any mention of a lube, and this too can have significant effects on accuracy. I use the Hi-Tek coating on all my cast stuff these days, including that Lee .401 boolit I load for the SIL. Accuracy is very good and consistent with the AA#5 powder, but we see a measurable drop-off with the Titewad. Changes (up/down) in the charge weights did little to change those results. This is a cartridge in which there is little wiggle room in terms of charge weight so any up/down is really insignificant so long as you stay within the published limits. Where the change comes from most is in the selection of which powder (burn rate) you use. There you will see significant differences.

:coffee:

[dverna]

Sorting brass and weighing bullets is a waste of time for your issue. Correct size, alloy, lube, and make sure you are not reducing bullet diameter when taper crimping.

Don Verna

[sutherpride59]

I second reducing the velocity. As stated, and SOP for consistency, separate components by headstamp. Group boolits, by weight and see.
My crimp consists of closing the belled mouth only. Nothing at all on the boils. Plenty of tension to hold them in.

SHiloh

i second that especially if you are tumble lubing the bullets, that stuffs so tacky it darn near holds the boolits in like glue.

Also powder selection is huge, ask around I'm sure there are plenty of fellows on here that can tell you what powder would work well for what you are trying to do. I loaded fmj's with power pistol for the wife back when she had a an fnp .40 and I could never get good accuracy out of it either. I found accurate#5 to be a better choice in powder for 175's but the were fmj's. Also #5 meters better too.

[M-Tecs]

Sorting brass and weighing bullets is a waste of time for your issue. Correct size, alloy, lube, and make sure you are not reducing bullet diameter when taper crimping.

Don Verna

I missed that in my reply. When I first started that was my biggest problem. I've been using Lyman M Dies so long I forgot about it.

[runfiverun]

HOLY COW!!
JD it is good to see you.

[dubber123]

Try 5.5 grains of Power Pistol. I use the same boolit in my Shield, and noticed accuracy noticeably decreased above 5.5 grains. A harder boolit might bring it back for me, but these are just practice rounds, and air cooled is easier for me. I use conventional lube, and can get groups in the 2.5" range at 25 yards, which I consider pretty good for this type of firearm.

[kungfustyle]

Factory crimp die for rifles ++++ Pistols bad ------- the crimp die for pistols sizes the boolit down inside the brass. Try seating then crimping with the reloading die just enough to get the round to chamber. Field strip the pistol and plop the rounds in. Once you get that plop crimp the rest and you should be good to go. Like most said drop the speed down, start at the beginning of the load and increase .2 grains till you get to the magic load. Should be good to go.

[Half Dog]

I had a simular problem. I was relaxing my grip as I was squeezing the trigger.

[John Boy]

Gentlemen ... there is no sense trying to guess what JAbee's issue(s) when you ask the BASICs - what his group accuracy is - he comes to the thread to check the responses and doesn't say a word what his existing group accuracy is
Accordingly - I say Let Him Figure His Own Issues Out because throwing suggestions at the thread is a pure waste of timenot knowing if or not there is an accuracy problem!

[GhostHawk]

Kind of agree with John boy.

Is it you? Or is it the gun?

Start by locking the gun into a vice, put 5 rounds of factory through it, see what it does. This will show you what the gun is capable of.

Then load 5 more and taking your own sweet time, concentrating on the FRONT sight, fire 5 slow aimed shots over a period up to a minute. This is in theory what you are capable of.

Ideally same variables for both. Range, ammo, lighting, all across the board.

If the gun will put them all into a 1.5" group but you put them into a 4 or 5 inch group I would not look at the gun or ammo, I would look at the shooter.

If both are reasonably close then you repeat with your ammo. Let it show you the problem.
Is it the gun or you? Muzzle blast/noise freaking you out and you lose control and concentration after the first shot? Happens to me. If it does, safe the gun, set it down, close your eyes, reach down deep inside, grab a double handful of intestinal fortitude and open your eyes and try again.

If it is a problem with the load shooting it from a vice or rest compared to factory will show you pretty darn quick. Then you just have to figure out the cause.

Step by step, change one thing at a time. Unless cases are sooty halfway back don't go up on power go down. Then try a different lube, then try sizing a couple thousandths bigger. Or differnt mold. IE .38 .358 boolit in a 9mm. If you have to you can size a boolit up a couple thousandths with a single swing of a rubber mallet with the boolit sitting on a vice or anvil. WHAP.

For every firearm, every caliber, finding the right load and learning how to shoot it is a journey. It is not a destination. There are no shortcuts. And if you do not want to take that journey that is fine, buy factory ammo.

But there is an art in learning to balance a load for a given firearm. And when it all comes together into that perfect fusion of firearm, load, shooter it can be magical.

[JAbee]

I saw no mention of boolit lube, suspect Lee also?

Good suggestion to separate brass by head stamp, new or old factory crimp die? The old design will seat boollits new won't old one real easy to over crimp with.

I'm using a new lee crimp die and powder coating my boolits with durable wet black from Powder by the Pound.

[JAbee]

My 2 cents: I use a G22 w/LW barrel and I no longer use the Lee 175 gr. or 145 gr boolits because I get obviously (to me) better accuracy with Lyman 170 gr. and 150 gr. I size to .401 w/ WL 2500+ and use the Lee FCD. I have tested and find no difference in accuracy, that I can tell, using a single or mixed headstamp 40 SW brass. I personally don't see any difference over a chrony between single or mixed headstamp 40 SW brass either. Your alloy sounds fine. I don't use Power Pistol but 6.0 gr is obviously a mid-range load. I have tried several different powders for 40 SW and some powder/boolit combinations shoot a whole lot better than others IMHO.

What diameter are you sizing your boolits?
What is the diameter at the case mouth after you crimp?
What's your lube?
What's your COAL?
Are you getting any leading?

Sizing to .401
dont know but will measure them
Powder Coating with Durable Wet Black from Powder by the Pound
COAL. 1.100 +/- .001
No leading

[JAbee]

Kind of agree with John boy.

Is it you? Or is it the gun?

Start by locking the gun into a vice, put 5 rounds of factory through it, see what it does. This will show you what the gun is capable of.

Then load 5 more and taking your own sweet time, concentrating on the FRONT sight, fire 5 slow aimed shots over a period up to a minute. This is in theory what you are capable of.

Ideally same variables for both. Range, ammo, lighting, all across the board.

If the gun will put them all into a 1.5" group but you put them into a 4 or 5 inch group I would not look at the gun or ammo, I would look at the shooter.

If both are reasonably close then you repeat with your ammo. Let it show you the problem.
Is it the gun or you? Muzzle blast/noise freaking you out and you lose control and concentration after the first shot? Happens to me. If it does, safe the gun, set it down, close your eyes, reach down deep inside, grab a double handful of intestinal fortitude and open your eyes and try again.

If it is a problem with the load shooting it from a vice or rest compared to factory will show you pretty darn quick. Then you just have to figure out the cause.

Step by step, change one thing at a time. Unless cases are sooty halfway back don't go up on power go down. Then try a different lube, then try sizing a couple thousandths bigger. Or differnt mold. IE .38 .358 boolit in a 9mm. If you have to you can size a boolit up a couple thousandths with a single swing of a rubber mallet with the boolit sitting on a vice or anvil. WHAP.

For every firearm, every caliber, finding the right load and learning how to shoot it is a journey. It is not a destination. There are no shortcuts. And if you do not want to take that journey that is fine, buy factory ammo.

But there is an art in learning to balance a load for a given firearm. And when it all comes together into that perfect fusion of firearm, load, shooter it can be magical.

I'm not asking for "magic" here. Just trying to get help or suggestions on what to try.

I'm shooting using a hand rest and the shots went all over the place using the cast boolit. I can post a pic of the target later today. I get really good groups with factory ammo all shooting at 25yrd.

[Ed_Shot]

Sizing to .401
dont know but will measure them
Powder Coating with Durable Wet Black from Powder by the Pound
COAL. 1.100 +/- .001
No leading

+1 for what GhostHawk said.

I have no experience with powder coat. After some thought I guess your crimp is OK or you'd have feeding issues. Understanding that every weapon/barrel is it's own wildcat....I will ask why you are using a COAL of 1.100 with the Lee 401-175 TC. Is 1.100 the max your chamber will take. I had best luck with the 401-175 TC with a COAL of 1.115 ~ 1.120 with the crimp at the case mouth of .421 and I consider that my Lone Wolf barrel has a tight chamber.

I'd recommend making some un-primed dummy rounds to determine the max COAL for the 401-175 TC in your chamber. If it is 1.100 I'd try a load of Power Pistol 5.6 gr for comparison. The beauty of handloading is SAFELY trying different things for improvement. There a a lot of different boolits and powders to try.

[popper]

I used the Lee 175 PCd in my XDM40, sized 401, no problems. I use the taper crimp of RCBS die. Close to COWW alloy, no tin. I don't sort brass or boolits. Best I can do is 2-3" @ 25 on a good day, resting gun on padded 4x4. Old eyes don't do well at 25. 4.5gr 231/hp38 is my standard load. I use an M die for 41 cal that I had cut for 40SW. NOE expander works great too, just wasn't available when I need one. Check ALL your loads in the (removed) barrel for plunk test. The Lee pistol FCD has a carbide sizing ring in the base that MAY resize loaded brass/boolits. It can be honed out to your chamber size - a lot of work. It's your choice to mark thick walled brass and scrap them or use for short range plinking.

[JAbee]

Thanks for all the suggestions to take back with me to the test bench.

[Digital Dan]

Best way to find the Holy Grail of accuracy involves a rifle?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/sofa_zps0e5c6086.gif (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/sofa_zps0e5c6086.gif.html)

[Blackwater]

JA, finding accuracy with a gun is always a search, NOT a destination one comes by. It calls for some experimentation. Places to look include what alloy you're using, are you getting consistent weights with the techniques you're using, fit of bullet to chamber and throat, OAL (always important in autos where it affects feeding), and the biggest factor, assuming your bullets and casting and gun are good, is the load you pick. Different guns shoot different loads differently.

Oftentimes, I've picked a powder I WANTED to work, but was disappointed in the results. When that happens, the smart money lies in trying another powder that has a good reputation for performance and accuracy in that caliber. Then, it's just a matter of repeating the tests, varying the lube, sizing, OAL and other variables until you've refined your load to be the best it can be in your gun.

I haven't loaded the .40 yet, though I have dies and a mold, so I'm not sure what powder and load to recommend, but something's not quite right somewhere. Good cast bullets and loads will generally beat factory loads, and if yours isn't doing that, you have work to do and some testing to perform.

Only when you see results on paper can you depend on the load and how you put them together. Lots of variables. Little time I know, and we all want instant results. Wanting ain't gettin', though, and the stuff we have to actually work for tend to be our best lessons over time. And our best teachers, if we'll just let them be. FWIW?

[Digital Dan]

Oftentimes, I've picked a powder I WANTED to work, but was disappointed in the results. When that happens, the smart money lies in trying another powder that has a good reputation for performance and accuracy in that caliber. Then, it's just a matter of repeating the tests, varying the lube, sizing, OAL and other variables until you've refined your load to be the best it can be in your gun.



And that is a fact. Two of my rifles are polar opposites with two loads in the same cartridge. One shoots one, the other shoots the other, only difference is the powder type.

[M-Tecs]

And that is a fact. Two of my rifles are polar opposites with two loads in the same cartridge. One shoots one, the other shoots the other, only difference is the powder type.

I agree with you on rifle cartridges, however, on handguns like the OP's powder is a much less significant factor. A MOA difference on a scoped rifle is huge. On a semi-auto handgun it's only 1/4" at 25 yards. The exception is the pressure of your powder is higher than your bullet/lub. can handle.

[Digital Dan]

Was talking iron sights, .30-30s. Both are capable of sub 2 MOA at 50 yds with their preferred load and 6+ MOA with the other. I shoot handguns at 50 also and have seen similar responses.

[wv109323]

Per a pistolsmith In Hawaii that built 1911's for competition, he claimed the number one factor in pistol accuracy was the base of the bullet. Next was fit to bore, which is pretty consistent in match barrels.
He claimed sorting brass and weighed charges were of no benefit. His pistols were most always under 2" at 50 Yards.
One thing I would look at immediately is the neck sizing operation. Most all die and machine manufacturers do not size the neck expander for cast boolits. So reloaders stuff an bullet in the brass that gets sized down due to an under sized neck. Thus the bullet is undersized for the bore. The same can happen with taper crimping. Dillon powder funnels are prime examples.
For 9MM their powder funnel is .353 to .354. My bore is .3565 and I use a .358 boolit. I had to have a larger powder funnel to get accurate results.

[Recluse]

HOLY COW!!
JD it is good to see you.

Thanks.

Been a while since I checked in.

:coffee:

[popper]

Recluse - good to see you back.