8x57 Mauser 165g Lyman 323470

[Scorpius]

Looking for load data around the following powders from I guess circa 90's.

Accurate 2700, 2460 or xmr2495

Can't find it in any of my load books or load data website. Figured maybe I could pick more experienced brains on how would I even begin to figure out a starting load.


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[Scorpius]

Wow.....no input yet?


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[runfiverun]

2700 is like 4350 I save it for my 7.7 and 311 savage rounds with jacketed loads.
the 2495 is Accurate's version of 4895.
I don't use 2460 cause I use 2230, and 2460 is just one step slower. [but one step faster than 2495]
it is close to 3031 in burn rate.

of the three 2495 would be the most versatile [my 223 loves it] but the 2460 would see some use in cast loads if I had it.
2700 is at it's best when it is in a case full situation and does even better with about 5-6% compression.

[Buckshot]

.............Accurate doesn't show any cast data on their website for the 8x57 Mauser. The only Accurate powder I've ever used with cast was with 2495, which if I'm not mistaken is kind of like their version of 4895? The only other Accurate powder I've ever used was surplus AA2200, and also AA2700, but never used it in the 8mm with cast.

Hodgdons Burn rate chart is here: http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Burn%20Rates%20-%202015-2016.pdf

However I've used a considerable amount of surplus powders since the early 90's, starting out with the retailers' "Use Like" info, and then backing off an additional 10%. In most all instances I used a filler material, either Dacron or on occasion Grex (which is a Winchester shot buffer NLA as a component to reloaders). The Grex which was a granulated plastic was generally used with slower powders.

If I had a 8 pounder of say A2460 and wanted to use it with cast boolits, I'd look at a couple burn rate charts to determine a common FASTER powder as a start point that is listed for cast or jacketed. So using the Hodgdon chart I see that IMR3031 is about 6 numbers faster. The Lee manual shows 32.5 grs under a 170gr JACKETED
slug giving 2105 fps @ 36100 CUP.

I'd start at 30.0 grs of A2460 and GREX (or another granulated shotshell buffer). Load 5 and shoot'em over your chronograph at a target and see what you get. A2495 shows as being slower then either H or IMR 4895, so your A2460 is the fastest of the 3 powders you list. Do NOT use a cereal filler, like Cream of Wheat as it isn't as compressible as the ground polly, plus it's heavier. Work your load up from there, being sure to use the filler.

Here's a loading workup I did back at the tail end of 2002. I'd commissioned Lee to produce a SC mould for a heavy 8mm boolit:

http://www.fototime.com/982F406A87D7DAC/standard.jpg

It weighed 238grs with the alloy I used. I had a ton of the surplus WC852, and this was a slower lot then the more recent 852. It was maybe a tad slower then 4831. Cases were headstamped 'MM44' (Canadian WW2 stuff) neck sized only WLR primers, and fired in a Turk M38/46 (24" bbl) Mauser. Charges were all scaled and dumped through a 18" drop tube, then the Grex was added to fill to the casemouth. I had a wild hair that said I really needed to get 2300 fps with this slug. This is the result:

46 grs ES 38, 2003 fps
47 grs ES 37, 2046
48 grs ES 11, 2077
49 grs ES 38, 2110
50 grs ES 37, 2129
51 grs ES 17, 2151
52 grs ES 54, 2195
53 grs ES 19, 2222
54 grs ES 25, 2258
55 grs ES 19, 2304

All the tests were 5 rounds fired at 50 yards (The rifle was 'as issued', stock, sights & trigger) All the groups were < 1.5" except for the 50.0, 53.0 & 55.0 gr loads which for some reason were about 3". Harmonics maybe? In addition I also ended up with a crack in the top of the wrist from the barreled action trying to walk back through the stock.

In any event part of your problem is that a 170 gr slug is somewhat light for cast in the 8mm, and then you have slower then desirable powders for that weight.

Maybe you can sell off a couple of those powders and get yourself some 2400, 4227, 4198 etc.

...............Buckshot

[swheeler]

Accurate manual #2 only shows 170 gr cast bullet loads for 4350,3100 and 8700 powders in the 8x57. I think you would be well served using a dacron filler with the 2495 and that light of a bullet to prove up ignition, 28 grs for starters should get you into the 1650 fps ball park, work up for accuracy.
Accurate does have cast bullet data using 2700 and 2495 but cartridges other than 8mm

[Shiloh]

I use the LEE 175. 19 gr IMR 4227 gives 1585 fps. To cold to work up loads. Gotta wait till spring.

Shiloh

[Scorpius]

wow.....4227.....go figure. I coulda have three pounds at the gun show for $15 each. Old stock but unopened. :-(. It called at me....and I thought...what the heck uses it?

anyhow....this information is EXACTLY what i'm looking for, though it sounds like I need to read and understand a bit more as I've not yet experimented with fillers (grex?)
I did write out to the manufacturer and here is what they said.

As long as the numeric/s is/are the same, i.e. examples, “A” or “AA” no9” or “A” or ‘AA” 4350” the burn rate and load data will be the same. The “XMR” and “XMP” prefixes, and/or “BR” post-fixes was eliminated ca 2003 and does not apply anymore.

Also since the Accurate Arms Company does not exist anymore (Since late2004/early 2005 when they sold out to Western powders Inc) the “AA” prefix is also not applicable anymore.

The powders are merely designated with an “A” prefix or the full name “Accurate”.



8x57mm JS Mauser












Barrel: 24" ¦ Twist: 1-10" ¦ Primer: WIN WLR ¦ Bullet Diameter: 0.323"





Case: REM ¦ Max Case Length: 2.244" ¦ Trim Length: 2.234"







Reduced Loads: -- (Cast Bullets/Target/Plinking Etc)
Powder: Accurate -- 5744®
Bullet weight: 150 grains
Low load: 26.0 grains (ca 2050 Fps)
Mid range load: 31.0 grains (ca 2325 Fps)
Maximum load: 36.0 grains (ca 2550 Fps)
Bullet weight: 170 grains
Low load: 24.0 grains (ca 1850 Fps)
Mid range load: 29.0 grains (ca 2100 Fps)
Maximum load: 34.0grains (ca 2325 Fps)
Bullet weight: 180-185 grains
Low load: 23.0 grains (ca 1775 Fps)
Mid range load: 28.0 grains (ca 2000 Fps)
Maximum load: 33.0 grains (ca 2325 Fps)
Bullet weight: 200grains
Low load: 22.0 grains (ca 1650 Fps)
Mid range load: 27.0 grains (ca 1850 Fps)
Maximum load: 32.0grains (ca 2125 Fps)
Bullet weight: 220 grains
Low load: 20.0 grains (ca 1550 Fps)
Mid range load: 25.5 grains (ca 1750 Fps)
Maximum load: 31.0grains (ca 2025 Fps)
Bullet weight: 235 grains
Low load: 18.3 grains (ca 1425 Fps)
Maximum load: 24.0 grains (ca 1752 Fps)
Bullet weight: 250 grains
Low load: 18.0 grains (ca 1387 Fps)
Maximum load: 23.5 grains (ca 1690 Fps)


Powder: Accurate – 2200®
Bullet weight: 125grains
Start load: 43.2 grains (2500-2600Fps)
Maximum load: 48.0 grains (3100-3200 Fps)
Bullet weight: 150grains
Start load: 39.6 grains (2500-2600Fps)
Maximum load: 44.0 grains (2725-2825 Fps)
Bullet weight: 175 grains
Start load: 38.2 grains (2400-2500Fps)
Maximum load: 42.5 grains (2600-2700Fps)

Powder: Accurate – 2230®.
Bullet weight: 170-175grains
Start load: 43.0grains (ca 2475 Fps)
Maximum load: 47.0grains (ca 2775 Fps)
Bullet weight: 180/185grains
Start load: 42.0grains (ca 2400 Fps)
Maximum load: 46.0grains (ca 2700 Fps)
Bullet weight: 200grains
Start load: 40.0grains (ca 2300 Fps)
Maximum load: 44.0grains (ca 2550 Fps)

Powder: Accurate – 2460® (2230-C®)
Bullet weight: 125 grains
Start load: 53.0grains (2900 – 3000 Fps)
Maximum load: 57.0 grains (3100-3200Fps)
Bullet weight: 150grains
Start load: 50.0grains (2700-2800Fps)
Maximum load: 54.0 grains (2900-3000Fps)
Bullet weight: 170 grains
Start load: 46.0grains (2450-2550Fps)
Maximum load: 50.5 grains (2700-2800Fps)
Bullet weight: 180grains
Start load: 45.0grains (2400-2500Fps)
Maximum load: 49.5grains (2650-2750Fps)
Bullet weight: 200grains
Start load: 43.0 grains (2300-2400Fps)
Maximum load: 47.0grains (2450-2550Fps)
Bullet weight: 220grains
Start load: 41.0 grains (2200-2300Ft/psec)
Maximum load: 45.5 grains (2350-2450Ft/psec)

Powder: Accurate -- 2495®.
Bullet weight: 150grains.
Start load: 45.0grains (ca 2750 Fps)
Maximum load: 50.0 grains (ca 2975 Fps).
Bullet weight: 170-175grains.
Start load: 44.0grains (ca 2600 Fps)
Maximum load: 48.0 grains (ca 2775 Fps).
Bullet weight: 180-185grains.
Start load: 43.0grains (ca 2500 Fps)
Maximum load: 47.0 grains (ca 2675 Fps).
Bullet weight: 200 grains.
Start load: 38.0 grains (ca 2325 Fps)
Maximum load: 42.0 grains (ca 2525 Fps)
Powder: Accurate -- 2520®
Bullet weight: 150grains
Start load: 48.6 grains (ca 2750Fps)
Maximum load: 54.0 grains (ca 3050 Fps)
Bullet weight: 170-175grains.
Start load: 47.7 grains (ca 2575 Fps)
Maximum load: 53.0 grains (ca 2825 Fps).
Bullet weight: 180-185grains
Start load: 47.3 grains (ca 2525Fps)
Maximum load: 52.0 grains (ca 2775 Fps)
Bullet weight: 200grains
Start load: 44.0 grains (ca 2425 Fps)
Maximum load: 48.0grains (ca 2650 Fps)
Bullet weight: 220grains
Start load: 43.0 grains (ca 2275 Fps)
Maximum load: 47.5 grains (2425 Fps)
Powder: Accurate -- 4064®
Bullet weight: 150grains
Start load: 48.0grains (ca 2600 Fps)
Maximum load: 52.0grains (ca 2900 Fps).
Bullet weight: 170-175grains
Start load: 46.4grains (ca 2525 Fps)
Maximum load: 51.5grains (ca 2750 Fps)
Bullet weight: 180grains
Start load: 46.0grains (ca 2375 Fps)
Maximum load: 51.0grains (ca 2675 Fps)
Bullet weight: 200 grains
Start load: 44.0grains (ca 2350 Fps)
Maximum load: 49.0grains (ca 2600 Fps)

Too slow powders:
Powder: Accurate -- 2700®
Bullet weight: 125 grains
Start load: 57.0 grains (2600 – 2700 Fps)
Maximum load: 63.0grains (3000 – 3100 Fps) Full case/compressed.
Bullet weight: 150 grains
Start load: 54.0 grains (2500 – 2600 Fps)
Maximum load: 60.0grains (2800 – 2900 Fps) Full case/compressed
Bullet weight: 180/185 grains
Start load: 51.0 grains (2400-2500 Fps)
Maximum load: 55.0grains (2650-2750 Fps) Full case/compressed.
Bullet weight: 200grains
Start load: 49.0 grains (2300-2400 Fps)
Maximum load: 53.0grains (2550-2650 Fps) Full case/compressed.
Bullet weight: 220grains
Start load: 47.0grains (2200-2300 Fps)
Maximum load: 51.5 grains (2450-2550 Fps) Full case/compressed.

Low pressure loads < 43700Psi/37000CUP.
Powder: Accurate -- 4350®
Bullet weight: 125 grains
Start load: 53.0 grains (2450 – 2550 Fps)
Maximum load: 59.0grains (2850 – 2950 Fps) LD ca 111%
Bullet weight: 150 grains
Start load: 47.7 grains (ca 2300 Fps)
Maximum load: 53.0 grains (ca 2625 Fps)
Bullet weight: 150 grains
Start load: 52.2 grains (2400 – 2500 Fps)
Maximum load: 58.0grains (2800 – 2900 Fps) LD ca 110%
Bullet weight: 170 grains
Start load: 51.3 grains (2300-2400 Fps)
Maximum load: 57.0grains (2650-2750 Fps) LD ca 107%
Bullet weight: 196grains
Start load: 49.0 grains (2300-2400 Fps)
Maximum load: 56.0grains (2475-2575 Fps) LD ca 104%
Bullet weight: 220grains
Start load: 47.0grains (2200-2300 Fps)
Maximum load: 52.0 grains (2450-2550 Fps) LD ca 102%
NOTES:
It’ important to note that SAFETY is our prime concern therefore we strongly recommend.
1. ALWAYS BEGIN LOADING AT THE RECOMMENDED MINIMUM “START” LOAD and develop loads in 2% increments towards the MAXIMUM load.
2. CAUTION: Beware of double charging if the loading density is below 50% of the available volume.

[swheeler]

With the three powders you asked about for a cast 165 gr bullet I think you may have trouble finding an accurate load using starting loads for jacketed bullets. 26-2700 fps seems a little fast to start out, use a large target backer.

[runfiverun]

that data is about useless.

[Scorpius]

that data is about useless.

Without more context to explain why, so is this response :-) care to elaborate?


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[Buckshot]

[QUOTE=Scorpius;3870857]Without more context to explain why, so is this response :-) care to elaborate?

..............Not to put in a reply for 'runfiverun', but you're asking for load data for a 170gr CAST LEAD boolit. All that data is not typical for cast lead except for the 5744, which you do not have on hand. You CAN push cast into the realm of some jacketed loads if you need that, but requires much more effort and refinement. That's why I showed the results I had obtained with a slow powder, and additionally I used a slug that was 60 some grains heavier.

If you had some 5744 you'd be in like Flynn. On the Hodgdon chart IMR 4227 is #66 and 5744 is #67. One of the other 'easy' CB powders is IMR4198 @ #72 and H4198 & #73.

If you had a heavier 8mm slug, like 190 - 210 grs you'd be in the realm of the faster 4227 - 4198 powders but would also be able to work up toward IMR 3031 #79 to 4895 #88 still producing realistic cast lead velocities without much voodoo.

A cast lead boolit requires much less effort (pressure) to start moving, and engraving into the rifling then a jacketed bullet. A fast powder like Unique is very easy to ignite, and generates quite of bit of pressure (for the charge) quickly. A very simplistic explanation is the slower powders require more heat and pressure to burn efficiently. Using those slow(er) powders while trying to stay below (say) 2000 fps, you'd probably end up with erratic velocities and a bore full of unburned powder.

Another example I have is using surplus WC872 powder in the 45-70. WC872 is a surplus 20mm cannon powder, and in the early '90's it was $3.50/lb delivered. It is waaaaaaaaaaaay slow. A full caseload under a 450gr lead slug out of my MAS36 conversion to 45-70 gave about 1350 fps, which is a fine velocity. But it left enough unburned powder in the barrel that if you saved it up, after 5 shots you'd have enough to load a 6th round. I really REALLY wanted to use this powder, but obviously it wasn't efficient. Even using a 500gr slug didn't improve things too much, and that was a 25% weight increase in the payload.

I needed a hotter primer, and going to a LR mag primer also made no noticeable difference in the unburned powder, although it did increase the velocity by about 10 fps. Had I been anal enough to try and weigh the unburned powder grains it might have showed a lighter leftover weight of a couple grains? So what I did was to make a mega magnum primer by adding 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 grains of IMR4198 powder against the primer with the load of WC872 on top. I wasn't looking for more velocity. What I wanted was to eliminate all the leftover trash in the barrel.

I'd loaded 5 rounds of each of the increasing 'Booster' loads. At 4.0 grs of 4198 ALL the unburned powder was gone :-)! Here's the data that was fired 5-97.

H-4198 + WC872, ES, Velocity, group at 100 yards, issue military sights:

1.0 + 69.0, 52, 1385, 6"H x 2"V . Noticeable decrease in unburned powder. A few left in case.
2.0 + 69.0, 15, 1437, 1.25H x 1.5V. Only a few unburned grains left in bbl.
3.0 + 69.0, 23, 1444, 2H x 1.5V. Maybe 4-5 grains left
4.0 + 67.0, 21, 1523, 1.5H x 1.5V. None in case, none in barrel.

I didn't bother firing the final load over the chronograph as the 4.0 gr load got me what I wanted. Conversely, a straight load of H4198 with the same slug and rifle yielded:

33.0 grs 1517 fps ES 33 fps.

I'm NOT suggesting you need a booster by ANY means. What I'm trying to show is that of those 3 powders you're showing, none are ideal for your 170gr cast boolit, velocity wise in full efficient caseloads. By REDUCING the charges with those powders you have you CAN attain desirable velocities, but NOT with those charges sloshing around in the case. Hence the need for a filler to allow them to burn efficiently.

This load shown:
Bullet weight: 170 grains
Start load: 46.0grains (2450-2550Fps)

If it were me I'd reduce this load to 30.0 grs and if it was a half case or more use a tuft of Dacron over the powder. Fire 5 at a target @ 50 yds over a chronograph. Then adjust your load up or down 2.0 grs and re-shoot. If the case was 75% full (which I seriously doubt) I'd use a ground poly filler.

The thing is, the powder is the fuel. At one extreme when the primer goes off, the slug would stick somewhere up the bbl. At the other end of the scale you have a bomb, which you don't want. Cartridges operate in a comparatively narrow range closer to the bomb end of the scale.

...................Buckshot

[swheeler]

Excellent advice Buckshot. I would like to add that I would start with the single base extruded powder first as the 2495 should be easier to ignite than the two ball powders listed when reduced. Maybe read up on dacron use on here and star low and work up until accuracy starts to diminish. If buying a different speed powder isn't an option the dacron will be the saving grace. .02 ymmv

[Scorpius]

I'll probably just use a different powder, I did recently grab some 4198 for it. But all this talk is definitely interesting and helpful as I want to learn more and advance my skills in reloading beyond having a book with listed powder and bullet. Here are two unknowns. Let's make them work based on burn charts.
First thing I did notice was even though I asked them about lead charts the fps was crazy fast and beyond what I would expect from lead.


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[swheeler]

Johan Loubster (sp?) at Western powder is/was their ballistician, a gentleman and scholar. I'm sure the liability lawyers have put an end to his helpful information. My how the world has changed and I don't like it much, just maybe Trump can reverse some of the damage done by the libtard do-gooders saving the world.

[runfiverun]

man...
you used to be able to call them or sierra and talk to someone that would discuss just about anything even if it was a bit out there.

[Shiloh]

AA 5744 was $36 a pound at Scheels yesterday. $30 for 4227. Have been out of 2400 for some time. I call at least twice a week.

Shiloh

[runfiverun]

if you can find some of their 4100 it is super close to 2400 on the burn charts and is usually within 1/2 grain in most loads.

[Shiloh]

if you can find some of their 4100 it is super close to 2400 on the burn charts and is usually within 1/2 grain in most loads.
I sent off an e-mail to Accurate about 4100 for cast in rifle. Ever done it yourself??

SHiloh

[Scorpius]

Anyone use these? Would be in my k98 or my hakim.
Guess finding load data might be a bear.
One is 215g the other the max, 225g

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/dept/reloading/lead-bullet-casting/special-order-moulds


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[bruce drake]

I bought the Max mold from a few years back. That bullet weight is heavily dependant on your alloy. My "225gr" mold drops them out at 240grs with use with lube and gascheck very regularly
I can use them in my 8mm-06 and my 8x57 chambered Mausers My best loads for the following powders and that boolit. 22.5gr of SR4759 gets my rifle 1850fps for the 8x57 rifles.
8mm-06 I've used 36.5gr of H4895 and 39.5gr of IMR4064 and both provide ~2100fps. EXTRA Heavy Lube on the bullets (Liquid Alox and Lar's 45 lube) to help prevent any leading from these loads..
Note of concern, That meplat is so wide that it occasionally doesn't feed nicely from the magazine unless you move the bolt smartly.

[runfiverun]

yeah.
I use both 4100 and the ramshot [enforcer-silhouette don't remember which one]
in cast loads.
2400 is not even on the order list in any of the gun shops within 100 miles of me so I started mucking about with the 4100 when Dick Casull gave me a bunch of it in trade for some unique.
it is a finer grain than 2400 is but it works quite the same, only in a place where you would normally use 17.5grs of 2400 you use @17.0-17.2.
in my 300 BO I used 2400 data to work my loads from the bottom up and found I was getting real world starting velocity's right near the book loads which told me it was burning just a tad [@4%] quicker in that instance also.