Need some reloading help for 25-35 ammo

[twobit]

Hi guys,
I am new here and know almost nothing about the fine art of reloading. But, I have a "Winchester friend" from France who has asked for some help. I will post his email here and the images he sent and ask for your input which I will then forward to him. Thanks so much
Michael
I have a Winchester 94 chambered in 25-35. This rifle was manufactured in 1912, and the bore of its 26 inches octagonal barrel is in pristine condition. If the 25-35 is an accurate ammunition, this particular rifle lives to its reputation.I first used factory SUPER X ammunition which gave extremely tight group. But those are hard to find on my side of the Atlantic, so I started reloading. I also thought this 100 year old barrel should be treated a bit more gently, hoping it would last an other 100 years or more.
My only choice was to use Sierra .257" 120 grains HPBT bullet, and the accuracy is awesome (I am using a marble tang sight). But it means single load directly in the chamber, because of their pointed shape and because the cartridge is too long to be fed from the tubular magazine up into the barrel. I have attached a picture of what this rifle can do with them Anything outside of the 1 inch white circle is always my fault.
I am now thinking of casting bullet to reduce cost and wear, and the choice is between RCBS .258 100 grains and RCBS .258 120 grains mould, both with gas check.
I like the 120 grains because it is the closest in shape and weight to the original Winchester bullet, and would produce a cartridge of the same length as the manufactured one so a good fit in the chamber and the barrel. It has a long nose for good centering and a long section to catch the groove. But first problem is it is a soft point not a flat nose, and second problem is it doesn't have a crimp groove. I have attached a good drawing of it.
The 100 grains is obviously shorter, and would produce a cartidge 0.1 inches shorter than the manufactured one (the length of the nose in front of the crimp groove is 0.4 inch). The shorter nose may not be well introduced inside the barrel when the cartidge is in the chamber. Advantage are it is flat point and it has a crimp groove. I have attached a picture of the mould.
I would very much apreciate your advise on the best choice of cast bullet for best accuracy with this 25-35. I need to take in consideration that cast bullet can't go as fast as the original 2200 ft/sec, so I worry that a lighter, shorter and slower bullet may not stabilize well in the barrel and its fast 1:8 twist rate.

181895181896 181897 181898 181899

[Outpost75]

Your friend can load the pointed Sierra bullets to an overall cartridge length which will feed from the magazine, no longer than 64mm, and use the rifle as a "Two Shooter", loading one round directly into the chamber, and inserting only one cartridge into the magazine at a time. That way he has a follow-up shot for game, but the point of the bullet in the magazine is not resting against a primer.

There may be a source of European-made .25-35 bullets for reloading, as the 6.5×52mmR is a close variant of the .25-35 Winchester. He must check and confirm diameter of component bullets! The 6.5x52R is not identical to the .25-35 Winchester and is not treated as such by the Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_Internationale_Permanente_pour_l%27Epre uve_des_Armes_%C3%A0_Feu_Portatives) (CIP), which has released separate specifications for each cartridge. The 6.5×52mmR has its origins in Germany and was introduced by RWS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RUAG) and is chambered in many drilling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combination_gun) and single-shot rifles. Any interchangeability between the two cartridges is solely dependent on individual chamber tolerances and bullet diameter should not be assumed without chamber cast and bore measurements! If his rifle has sufficient clearance in the chamber neck to enable safe bullet release, a jacketed bullet not more than 0.05mm (0.002") larger than groove diameter is not hazardous, but requires a 10-15% reduction in powder charge to maintain safe working pressures.

With cast bullets a diameter of .258-.259 works well in most .25-35s I have shot. In my experience loading for the .25-35, lighter weight, 6 gram, flat-nosed jacketed or cast bullets intended for the .25-20 Winchester shot well in the 8-inch twist barrel, but were overly destructive for use on edible game if driven over 2000 fps.

A better mold for the .25-25 would be this design from NOE
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=26_178&products_id=1074&osCsid=ksjhjobk4iubqdbgmdbclf3ai2
181900
This could be used in light loads below 400 m/s without the GC and with the GC can approach normal factory load velocity.

[Tom Myers]

Hi guys,
I am new here and know almost nothing about the fine art of reloading. But, I have a "Winchester friend" from France who has asked for some help. I will post his email here and the images he sent and ask for your input which I will then forward to him. Thanks so much
Michael
I have a Winchester 94 chambered in 25-35. This rifle was manufactured in 1912, and the bore of its 26 inches octagonal barrel is in pristine condition. If the 25-35 is an accurate ammunition, this particular rifle lives to its reputation.I first used factory SUPER X ammunition which gave extremely tight group. But those are hard to find on my side of the Atlantic, so I started reloading. I also thought this 100 year old barrel should be treated a bit more gently, hoping it would last an other 100 years or more.
My only choice was to use Sierra .257" 120 grains HPBT bullet, and the accuracy is awesome (I am using a marble tang sight). But it means single load directly in the chamber, because of their pointed shape and because the cartridge is too long to be fed from the tubular magazine up into the barrel. I have attached a picture of what this rifle can do with them Anything outside of the 1 inch white circle is always my fault.
I am now thinking of casting bullet to reduce cost and wear, and the choice is between RCBS .258 100 grains and RCBS .258 120 grains mould, both with gas check.
I like the 120 grains because it is the closest in shape and weight to the original Winchester bullet, and would produce a cartridge of the same length as the manufactured one so a good fit in the chamber and the barrel. It has a long nose for good centering and a long section to catch the groove. But first problem is it is a soft point not a flat nose, and second problem is it doesn't have a crimp groove. I have attached a good drawing of it.
The 100 grains is obviously shorter, and would produce a cartidge 0.1 inches shorter than the manufactured one (the length of the nose in front of the crimp groove is 0.4 inch). The shorter nose may not be well introduced inside the barrel when the cartidge is in the chamber. Advantage are it is flat point and it has a crimp groove. I have attached a picture of the mould.
I would very much apreciate your advise on the best choice of cast bullet for best accuracy with this 25-35. I need to take in consideration that cast bullet can't go as fast as the original 2200 ft/sec, so I worry that a lighter, shorter and slower bullet may not stabilize well in the barrel and its fast 1:8 twist rate.




The enclosed images are provided for insight into bullet fitment and design parameters that could influence the choice of a cast bullet design for the 25-35 Win based upon the SAAMI Chamber and Cartridge dimensions.

The RCBS 100 grain is the most obvious choice between the two above mentioned mold but still has some fit and support issues.

Night Owl Moulds has two designs, in stock and available. Either of the those two designs should work well.

A computer design from the Precision Bullet Design software (http://www.tmtpages.com/#advanced) fits OAL specs, neck length, groove and bore diameters, fills the throat well and could easily be replicated as a custom mold by someone such as Accurate Molds. Feel free to use the design sketch if needed.

Hope this helps.


RCBS Mold choices ************************************************** *****************

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/23-35%20Win/25-35_Win~~R.C.B.S._Mold_257-120-SP_80%25.Jpg

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/23-35%20Win/25-35_Win~~R.C.B.S._Mold_25-100-FN_80%25.Jpg

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/23-35%20Win/R.C.B.S._Mold_25-100-FN_101_gr_Sketch.Jpg

Precision Bullet Design ************************************************** *********

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/23-35%20Win/25-35_Win~~A_TMT_Design_261-250-111_80%25.Jpg

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/23-35%20Win/A_TMT_Design_261-250-111_116_gr_Sketch.Jpg

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/23-35%20Win/25-35_Win~A_TMT_Design_261-250-111.Jpg




N.O.E. Bullet Mould available selections**************************************** *****************************

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/23-35%20Win/25-35_Win~N.O.E._260-116-FN_(GC).Jpg

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/23-35%20Win/N.O.E._Bullet_Moulds_260-116-FN_(GC)__Sketch.Jpg



http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/23-35%20Win/25-35_Win~N.O.E-Bullet-Moulds_260-116-RN_(GC)_~1000-pi_Throat.Jpg

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/23-35%20Win/N.O.E._Bullet_Moulds_260-116-RN_(GC)__Sketch.Jpg

[Outpost75]

Tom, wonderful thorough response!

[DFrancois]

Thank you Tom,

Those drawing are really excellent information. I like the N.O.E. flat point. I just want to confirm with you that those drawing show the actual dimensions of the bullet as it comes out of the mould (I would resize it at 0.258").

From the drawing, I understand that the RN and FN have the same length from bottom to crimp groove (0.475") but the "seat" for the FN is longer than for the RN. How is that possible? My understanding was that the extra nose length of the RN accounted for the extra weight (117 gr vs 114 gr for the FN).

The N.O.E. bullet with gas check would be the perfect answer, but I just want to make sure the gas check will be properly held in the neck of the case.

I like the RN too, but am a bit weary of stacking them in the tubular magazine with the round nose resting on the primer of the cartridge in front.

Best regards.

Francois.

[Tom Myers]

Thank you Tom,

Those drawing are really excellent information. I like the N.O.E. flat point. I just want to confirm with you that those drawing show the actual dimensions of the bullet as it comes out of the mould (I would resize it at 0.258").

From the drawing, I understand that the RN and FN have the same length from bottom to crimp groove (0.475") but the "seat" for the FN is longer than for the RN. How is that possible? My understanding was that the extra nose length of the RN accounted for the extra weight (117 gr vs 114 gr for the FN).

The N.O.E. bullet with gas check would be the perfect answer, but I just want to make sure the gas check will be properly held in the neck of the case.

I like the RN too, but am a bit weary of stacking them in the tubular magazine with the round nose resting on the primer of the cartridge in front.

Best regards.

Francois.

Francois,

Although I do not have either of these two N.O.E. molds, all of my N.O.E. mold's as-cast diameters have been spot-on whith the specs when cast with wheel weight alloy.

You are correct. Both molds do have the same seating depth. When I used the software to create the drawings, I neglected to re-enter the correct bullet length when drawing the second bullet so the computer simply calculated with my values. (garbage in ~ garbage out)

Thank you for pointing out the oversight.The images have been re-drawn and uploaded. They should now show the correct dimensions.

I agree that the N.O.E. round nose version would be the ideal choice for the 23-35 Win.

Personally, I have no qualms when shooting a rimmed cartridge with a soft, round nose bullet from a rifle with a tubular magazine. I have fired many 30-30 round nose bullets from my Model 94 Winchester without a problem.

If you are concerned with the application of your tubular magazine and round nosed cartridges, locate a section of clear glass or vinyl tubing with approximately the same inner diameter as a tubular magazine, fill it with loaded, rimmed cartridges then observe the positioning of the bullet nose to the primer of the next cartridge. You may then make a personal, more informed choice between round or flat nosed bullets.

[square butte]

Sadly - I don't think Accurate Molds can do .25 cal. I have the NOE mold but have not used it yet

[DFrancois]

Tom,

Thank you for the clarification, it makes sense.

I understand that the cartridges are canted in the tubular magazine, but this is not true for the first one which is on the elevator inside the receiver when the lever is closed.

The flat nose of any 30-30 or 25-35 is actually smaller in diameter that the primer, but the idea of the soft nose was to create a larger area which, for a given force, will reduce the pressure exerted on the primer in front should it hit it.

I have been browsing through all the posts about RN and tubular magazine and yes it seems safe. Hornady's bullet are also soft round nose. On the other hand, the 25 is a small bullet so the round nose will have a tighter radius.

I do like the N.O.E. round nose best though. What would be your personal reason to favor it over the flat nose?

Best regards.

Francois.

[Tom Myers]

Tom,

**********************************
I do like the N.O.E. round nose best though. What would be your personal reason to favor it over the flat nose?

Best regards.

Francois.

No specific, demonstrable reason other than, over the years, for me, round nose bullets seem to have exhibited a little better accuracy than flat nose and, with the slightly higher ballistic coefficient, a flatter trajectory.

[DFrancois]

Thank you again Tom,

I agree with you about better ballistic with round nose..

I think I will use the Round Nose N.O.E. mould. I will then put together a fake cartridge with just primer, bullet and sand to make it heavy enough and use it as a test cartridge to see if the primer ever show any sign of impact when seating in the tubular magazine on top of an other round nose.

Best regards.

Francois.