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sutherpride59
12-03-2016, 02:21 AM
So I will admit that I have totally neglected and abused my CMP M1 Garand. I haven't started casting for it yet or reloading for the poor old thing. Since my recent move I've been doing a lot of 45acp casting and reloading because the Local range only allows pistols and .223, plus it's only a 25 yard range. My question is 2 fold really, what is yalls favorite mold for 30-06 loads and what are some of the best powders out the for the 30-06. I don't have a specific weight I'm aiming for I really just want a good accurate cast load for my CMP Garand.

I do have some molds my father in law left me. I have a Lyman 311644cv which is 190grain, a Lee 90370 which is 200grain, and a Lyman 311291 which is 170grain.

The rifle powders I do have on hand are IMR 4831, Hogdon H335, H4198 and Alliant reloader 22.

Kosh75287
12-03-2016, 03:57 AM
H335 MIGHT be okay in your Garand, but I think your best bet would be to buy a pound of Hodgdon 4895, IMR-4895, or IMR-4064. Those three powders were more or less formulated specifically for use in the Garand, and it's difficult to find a powder that works better in that rifle. I'm not in mind of a particular powder/projectile combination for the three, but there are plenty of them about. I'D recommend that you keep bullet weights in the 147-175 grain range.

The use of faster-burning powders for cast projectiles in the Garand may expose the operating rod to higher port pressures and bend it. What MIGHT work for cast projectiles is to use data for H4895 with the same weight j-word bullet, but apply the "60% rule", and multiply the charge weight for j-word bullets, multiplied by 0.6. Cast bullet loads assembled in this manner may not operate the action of your Garand, but they shouldn't wreck the operating rod, either.

labradigger1
12-03-2016, 06:03 AM
When casting for the garand, slow powders and heavy boolits are your friend.

Tatume
12-03-2016, 09:27 AM
When casting for the garand, slow powders and heavy boolits are your friend.

Slow powders, IMR 4350 and slower, will cause bent operating rods in M1 Garands. Powders such as IMR 4895 and IMR 4064 are ideal, but any slower is asking for trouble. Faster powders such as IMR 3031 are fine. Avoid the slow powders.

labradigger1
12-03-2016, 10:08 AM
Slow powders, IMR 4350 and slower, will cause bent operating rods in M1 Garands. Powders such as IMR 4895 and IMR 4064 are ideal, but any slower is asking for trouble. Faster powders such as IMR 3031 are fine. Avoid the slow powders.

4895 and 202 grain boolits is all I use for cast. No bent op rods yet but I also don't got rod it either.

sutherpride59
12-03-2016, 10:48 AM
H4895 is starting to sound like the powder I'm after but wouldn't H335 work pretty well also? It's right between 4895 and 3031 on the burn rate chart

Tatume
12-03-2016, 10:52 AM
H335 might work, but why? People have been shooting Garands in competition for decades. IMR 4895 and IMR 4064 are ideal.

sutherpride59
12-03-2016, 11:35 AM
Your right, do you have a pet load by chance? I know what's best for your rifle isn't going to be best for mine but it would give me a good place to start.

Tatume
12-03-2016, 11:46 AM
You're right, do you have a pet load by chance? I know what's best for your rifle isn't going to be best for mine but it would give me a good place to start.

The Sierra 168 grain Match King bullet is the place to start. If you plan to hunt with the Garand, the Sierra 165 grain Game King is an excellent bullet also.

I am always reluctant to share load data on Internet forums. For example, the starting load for IMR 4895 with the Sierra 168 grain Match King is an overload with the same bullet and H4895. I suggest go to

https://www.hodgdon.com/

and select the starting load for IMR 4895. This has been an accurate and reliable load in every Garand I've tried.

Take care, Tom

fatelvis
12-03-2016, 02:35 PM
I agree with Po's 175 grn load....
http://masterpostemple.bravepages.com/M1load.htm

W.R.Buchanan
12-03-2016, 04:10 PM
IMR 4895, is the correct place to start.

IMR 4895, NOT H4895,,, has been the goto powder for the .30-06 in Garands since WWII. Most M2 Ball with 150 gr bullets was loaded with it.

For Cast Boolits I have only used 16 gr of 2400 with Lyman 311299 but that won't cycle the action,,, which doesn't bother me a bit as these rounds are always used for slow fire. I normally close down my gas system for those anyway and run the action by hand even with full power loads, so I don't have to chase my brass.

Our local National Match/CMP guy is very good about showing people how to run one of these guns. He's an Ex Marine LC and knows his stuff. There is a lot of little tricks to Single Loading one or charging a Enbloc Clip with only two rounds etc. and various little fine points of running these guns that is not obvious. Lots to learn here.

The best thing about shooting a Garand in a National Match shoot is learning how to really run the gun and how to operate the sights.

What this does for you is make you a better rifleman as everything you learn directly translates to every other rifle you have.

I personally am partial to Iron Sights and particularly Lyman or Redfield Receiver Sights. Everything about the Garand Sight translates directly to those sights.

Also Everything about shooting with these sights translates directly to Scopes so if you know what your elevation offsets are for a given load out to say 600 yards, those same offsets in MOA work exactly the same in either a receiver sight or scope. The Garand Sight is a little simpler to use due to it's construction but it is every bit as accurate as a Lyman or Redfield Receiver sight or any scope.

You just gotta learn how to use them,,, and a trip thru a CMP class will teach you that.

Whatever you do, don't waste time searching for the "Ultimate Load for your Garand." The ultimate load for these guns has been known for 60+ years. If you simply buy a Hodgdons Reloading Manual there is a section on loading for Garands with every load that works for them. There is no need to waste time hunting for it,,, just pick one and be done with it.

Then go to the range and sight your gun in using that 150 gr Jacketed Bullet load, or ideally some factory M2 Ball ammo, which will be your fastest and flattest shooting load and thus become your "Mechanical Zero" for that rifle. All other loads a bullet combos will be slower and only require positive elevation changes.

Make sure you write that Load and Setting down in a note pad or book. The sight is also calibrated for that load and the trajectory of the bullet will follow the marks on the sight knob as long as the Velocity of the load is close to what the book says. Approximately 2700-2800 fps. When the rifle is zeroed at 200 yards the sight knob should be adjusted to the "2" on the knob. Then verified at "3" for 300 and "6" for 600 yards.

As I said above every other load you choose to shoot thru that gun with heavier bullets will be slower and only need a positive elevation change, and you will write those elevation offsets down in your little dope book as well. That way when you go out to shoot with any load you've shot in the past, as long as you have written down the Elevation Offsets for that load you can dial the sight back in and have the confidence that the shots will be on target.

Windage should be zeroed on a zero wind day and only under extreme conditions would you change that during a shoot and obviously return the sight to the windage zero at the end of the day as well so you start fresh each time out.

When you are done shooting for the day you ALWAYS return the rear sight to your "Mechanical Zero" and thus you always know where that gun is sighted in at, and you have a fixed starting point everytime you shoot no matter what you choose to shoot for ammo.

If you don't take the time to do these steps you will invariably "chase the sights around" each time you shoot and simply waste a bunch of ammo. I learned about this stuff about 10 years ago, and it changed the way I shoot for the better and I urge all of you to attend a CMP class and learn how to actually operate this weapon. There is more to it than simply loading it and pulling the trigger, and it will make you a better shooter.

Randy

osteodoc08
12-03-2016, 04:18 PM
IMR 4895 is the powder you seek. Like Coke, it's the original and the best for the Garand IME. I haven't done cast but have shot plenty of 150hr class FMJ plinker a with 46-47gr gives plenty of accuracy and doesn't hammer on the gun. As always,double check load data against my memory.

fatelvis
12-03-2016, 04:20 PM
If you are looking for a good cast bullet load, I have found that 38 grns H4895 under a 311299 operates the action on a Garand reliably, and is accurate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Kosh75287
12-03-2016, 04:27 PM
H4895 is starting to sound like the powder I'm after but wouldn't H335 work pretty well also? Yes, H335 would probably work at least "okay", but I think you'll end up wanting to go to H4895 eventually. Rather than reinventing the wheel with H335, I think you'll probably get better results faster with H4895. While you are waiting for H4895 to make it to your reloading bench, you COULD work up loads with H335, and keep THAT close by, so if H4895 becomes scarce, you'll have an alternative powder and data for it, standing by. The other reason I'm suggesting H4895 is because of the "60% rule" that can generally be applied with it, when you wish to work up reduced velocity using cast projectiles. You can load the 168gr. BTHP full-power service ammunition with the same propellant you use for lower-velocity cast projectile loads. It is POSSIBLE that you could also do this with H335, but I'm not sure (Check with Hodgdon). If memory serves, H335 was the propellant designed originally for use in the AR15/M16 platform, so it would hardly surprise me if it didn't work PRETTY well in an older platform. I know people who SWEAR by it in other rifles, and they're gathering trophies and winner's money faster than I'LL ever do. But if you can go with (one of) the powder(s) originally designed for the M1, wouldn't that be the better strategy?

sutherpride59
12-03-2016, 08:34 PM
Well I'm thinking that H4895 is a better choice than IMR4895 mostly because in the Lee modern reloading second edition there is a section for cast bullets and under 30-06 there are plenty of recipes for H4895 but none for IMR4895. Comparing the two it looks like H has a lower pressure than IMR plus it has a slightly faster burn rate which should make it better for cast loads and again I'm only lookin for cast loads. I have plenty of the copper stuff But what's the fun in that.

Shiloh
12-03-2016, 09:04 PM
Will vary from gun to gun, boolit style, and wt. of different boolit styles. Just like every other model.

SHiloh

Shiloh
12-03-2016, 09:22 PM
Will vary from gun to gun, boolit style, and wt. of different boolit styles. Just like every other model.

SHiloh

Hick
12-03-2016, 10:33 PM
If you want to experiment more, and protect the op rod, buy a second gas plug (or an adjustable one). I have a second gas plug with the valve removed-- making it open permanently. When testing unusual loads I use that plug. It completely prevents the rifle from cycling-- you have to pull back on the bolt to reload. However, that's not any trouble and actually better at some ranges where the flying brass can get away from you.

sutherpride59
12-03-2016, 10:59 PM
If you want to experiment more, and protect the op rod, buy a second gas plug (or an adjustable one). I have a second gas plug with the valve removed-- making it open permanently. When testing unusual loads I use that plug. It completely prevents the rifle from cycling-- you have to pull back on the bolt to reload. However, that's not any trouble and actually better at some ranges where the flying brass can get away from you.

good info I had no idea. I'll be looking into this for sure. On a side note everyone keeps expressing a serious concern for bending the operating rod, with cast bullets I should get excessive leading way before the op rod is in danger or am I totally wrong here? Also with copper jacketed bullets wouldn't you have signs of high pressure on your casings before you get to the point that you cause damage to the op rod?

Outpost75
12-04-2016, 07:22 AM
DO NOT USE H335 in the Garand!

When there is too much airspace in the case, H335 is VERY erratic. I ringed the chamber of an M1 using H335 in attempting full-charge loads approximating Ball M2, I sure as heck would not to attempt to use it in reduced cast bullet loads. Like many have said. IMR4895 is the powder of choice. IMR4064, Rl15 or Varget also work well with either cast or full charges.

181974

Scharfschuetze
12-04-2016, 01:07 PM
I load for several Garands with both cast and jacketed bullets. Either of the 4895 powders are the best in all of 'em with lead or jacketed although IMR 4064 has proven to be useful too.

I've never had a lot of success with ball powders (H335 or Winchester 748) and cast boolits in the 30/06. With cast boolits you are operating at lower pressures than the rifle ball powders are really meant to operate. Given that, their recalcitrant ignition properties due to a heavy deterrent coating that slows their burn rate can mean inconsistent ballistics and less than optimum accuracy at longer ranges.

My favorite cast projectiles in the Garand are the Lyman 311334, 311332 and the 311299. All three of these designs will weigh between 195 and 210 grains which seems to be the right weight for function and accuracy in the old war horse. I size 'em to .310 and my sweet spot for both function and accuracy will happen between 33 and 35 grains of 4895 for about 1850 fps on average. They'll hold well way out there to several hundred yards if you do your part.


If you want to experiment more, and protect the op rod, buy a second gas plug (or an adjustable one). I have a second gas plug with the valve removed-- making it open permanently. When testing unusual loads I use that plug. It completely prevents the rifle from cycling-- you have to pull back on the bolt to reload. However, that's not any trouble and actually better at some ranges where the flying brass can get away from you.

This is good advice, particularly if you are shooting 190 grain jacketed bullets for long range matches. I have two versions and both work well. If your Garand is match conditioned and has tight barrel and gas cylinder splines, get a barrel-cylinder unitizer to prevent damage to the splines when tightening down or removing the gas cylinder plug. If it's rack grade, don't worry about it.

Here is the tool (it's the blue dohicky) along with some other accouterments for the Garand.

sutherpride59
12-04-2016, 04:37 PM
I load for several Garands with both cast and jacketed bullets. Either of the 4895 powders are the best in all of 'em with lead or jacketed although IMR 4064 has proven to be useful too.

I've never had a lot of success with ball powders (H335 or Winchester 748) and cast boolits in the 30/06. With cast boolits you are operating at lower pressures than the rifle ball powders are really meant to operate at so their recalcitrant ignition properties due to a heavy deterrent coating that slows their burn rate. That can mean less than uniform ballistics (proven over a chronograph) and less than stellar accuracy at longer ranges with the lower pressures generated in a cast boolit load.

My favorite cast projectiles in the Garand are the Lyman 311334, 311332 and the 311299. All three of these designs will weigh between 195 and 210 grains which seems to be the right weight for function and accuracy in the old war horse. I size 'em to .310 and my sweet spot for both function and accuracy will happen between 33 and 35 grains of 4895 for about 1850 fps on average. They'll hold well way out there if you do your part.

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This is good advice, particularly if you are shooting 190 grain jacketed bullets for long range matches. I have two versions and both work well. If your Garand is match conditioned and has tight barrel and gas cylinder splines, get a barrel-cylinder unitizer to prevent damage to the splines when tightening down or removing the gas cylinder plug. If it's rack grade, don't worry about it.

Here is the tool (it's the blue dohicky) along with some other accouterments for the Garand.

I think I'll end up using the H4985 like you said, the Lee book has a nice table for cast bullets with it and it's at my local reload shop. I'll get some IMR4895 when I can find it. I think I'll try setting up some loads with Lyman 311644 and Lee 200 grain sometime this week. If I lick out I might get a chance to go shoot them this month lol.

My my garand is just a standard CMP Garand I haven't made any upgrades to it YET. As time goes by and I sell off a couple other rifles I really don't want anymore I'll use those to fun a new barrel and some other upgrades like the unitizer.

Scharfschuetze
12-04-2016, 05:00 PM
Southernpride,

How is that tour in Georgia going? I'll be in Savannah in the middle of April and hope to shoot some skeet at Hunter Army Airfield with my son between other goings on in that most quintessential southern city.

sutherpride59
12-04-2016, 08:29 PM
Things in Kings Bay are good, they would be better if had a range closer by but it's good to be in the south again. I missed Waffle House and Chick-fil-A more than I realized lol. Maybe the next time your in Savannah I'll have to make a trip up to meet for coffee and pick your brain some more.

zomby woof
12-04-2016, 10:37 PM
My best load was 311284 with 33.0 Varget

S.B.
12-04-2016, 10:56 PM
If you are looking for a good cast bullet load, I have found that 38 grns H4895 under a 311299 operates the action on a Garand reliably, and is accurate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just how good do cast bullets hold up at 600 in the National Match course?
Steve

Scharfschuetze
12-05-2016, 03:10 AM
Just how good do cast bullets hold up at 600 in the National Match course?
Steve

That's probably pushing a good thing too far Steve. While I do shoot 30 cal cast boolits out that far at steel and other targets of opportunity, competing with them against the latest VLD and Match King bullets would be an exercise in frustration. I've shot Larry Gibson's rifles (very slow twist and long barrels) with cast boolits at jacketed velocities at 300 yards with perfect success and near MOA accuracy; but I'm afraid that by 600 yards, a cast bullet's inefficient ballistic coefficient would just pale in comparison to modern jacketed designs. Atmospheric conditions (wind, humidity, etc.) would take a serious toll on them. My most accurate cast load with the M1 Garand uses the Lyman 311299 of 210 grains. It only has a velocity of 1850 fps and that just isn't fast enough for good performance at 600 yards.

Now shooting the reduced National Match courses at 100 and 200 yards is perfectly doable with cast boolits. I often practice my off hand, sitting and prone positions with cast boolits at 200 yards and my scores at that range are similar to my jacketed bullet scores. Truth be known, I find such shooting much more interesting and fun with cast boolits than most other types of rifle shooting.

W.R.Buchanan
12-05-2016, 04:04 PM
I find such shooting much more interesting and fun with cast boolits than most other types of rifle shooting.

This is why I prefer shooting with Iron Sights in the Cowboy Silhouette Matches or Long Range Silhouette Matches. You are shooting guns which are not normally known as "Target Rifles" but perform well enough for the game. Add to that the fact that you made the Boolits and ammo, and the level of satisfaction goes up dramatically.

Also hitting a Ram at 500 meters, off hand, with an Enfield with Iron Sights is pretty satisfying. I may only hit 5-6 out of 40 targets, but I know that everyone was 5 times harder to accomplish than anything hit with a scoped rifle.

Also my .45-70 knocks Rams at 200 meters down with authority! I mean BAM! very satisfying. Also a real Crowd pleaser.

My blurb above on Sighting and Recording Settings is where this all pays off, and the same holds true for National Match. If you are sure where the gun is going to shoot , it just becomes a matter of pulling the trigger at the right time. Really simplifies things.

If you don't know where the gun is shooting, then you are guessing every time you pull the trigger, and your scores will reflect that fact.

Randy

Scharfschuetze
12-07-2016, 12:49 AM
My blurb above on Sighting and Recording Settings is where this all pays off, and the same holds true for National Match. If you are sure where the gun is going to shoot , it just becomes a matter of pulling the trigger at the right time. Really simplifies things.

If you don't know where the gun is shooting, then you are guessing every time you pull the trigger, and your scores will reflect that fact.

Excellent advice Randy.

I keep a dedicated score book with all sight settings, loads and other minutia for each match rifle of mine. Makes life easier when it's 95 in the shade and you're at the 600 yard line facing a gusting 12 to 15 knot wind from 3:00 O'Clock, heavy mirage flowing and with sweat in your eyes.