PDA

View Full Version : 7mm Soup Can Update:



Oldfeller
11-01-2005, 04:58 PM
7mm Soup Can checks rec'd to date:

28311
97754
37179
20111
71479
48415
62801
30736
72065
83706
82604
56477
68504 half-way point exceeded !!! On the downhill side ....
29407


(don't forget, you can click on a drawing once then once again to blow it up 3x)

35remington
11-02-2005, 09:09 PM
Oldfeller, I got my check off today, so you should see it Saturday or Monday. Thanks again.

Oldfeller
11-09-2005, 10:00 PM
Update on the 7mm Soup Can checks rec'd to date:

28311
97754
37179
20111
71479
48415
62801
30736
72065
83706
82604
56477
68504 half-way point exceeded !!! On the downhill side now ....
29407

Oldfeller
11-17-2005, 07:44 PM
$37 Honcho price and six bucks shipping totals $43 bucks.

Early order guys, I owe you a $13 rebate check (it will be shipped with your mold).

All you fence sitters, pay attention -- the bullet will weight closer to 130 grains than previously thought (feedback from LEE).

This is durn near perfect as an eastern deer bullet weight in 7mm modern type guns as you can get both speed AND mass in this bullet.

Bullet spins out very nicely, indicating that higher fps may be possible than with some other longer for the diameter cast bullets (most all 30 cals, all 8mm cals, and certainly all the 6.5 cals INCLUDING the Kurtz).

This is a nice little bullet at a real nice six banger mold price. I'd hate to miss the Dec. 15 broker order because we didn't have the 25 orders pulled together, that would be a durn shame.

And Bob, I will still make you a "super-sized" neck swelling mold as I promised. I'll have to lap it out from standard since I won't be the one talking directly to Doug when the order is placed --- but that's OK, it's only six holes to lap after all. Maybe I'll picture document the steps and add it to the Mold Modification sticky as it would be a real controlled-roll-lapped sizer-upper type modification.

Won't that be fun? There will be lots of slugs cast off it during the fine tuning of course, so I could ship Joe some with his $43 mold, Buckshot some, Maven some -- good confirmation of your new loading/shooting neck swelling technique in other words, direct apples to apples comparison shooting -- same exact bullet as a matter of fact.

That is if the jokers ever place an order for a mold that is.

<g>

Oldfeller

Oldfeller
11-26-2005, 12:45 PM
-- THIS IS A 130 GRAIN BULLET THAT FITS A 7MM REMINGTON MAGNUM --
(shouldn't you shoot that big boomer gun some in the off season?)
... trigger's gonna rust up on you if you don't shoot it some ...
================================================== ===


We need 10 more molds to be ordered or ....... perhaps we might have to punt ????

I'm holding enough money to pay the programming fee for the order but I wouldn't do that without consulting the group first. Just chime in down below on this thread, I don't think we need a sticky poll for only this small a group.

Eight constitutes a majority and the question is "go ahead & pay $100 program fee using our excess money" or "wait for the next quarterly buy and see if we get some more orders". (hey, at least because of the price break we now have this extra option available at the original $56 price point -- and so does everyone else who can't get a full 25 count group buy together)

It would be helpful if you guys would talk up the mold on the other lists where you also go. We still have 15 days to pull togther just 10 more orders.

Also, the oversized "supersized" guys need to understand (once again) that their oversized molds are going to have to be hand lapped now. Since we are dealing through a middle man no detailed communications can take place with LEE (and LEE is likely going to be hacked off at having to make the molds for cheap anyway). So I will be making up precision laps and lapping out the very few oversized molds that have been requested so far.

Update on the 7mm Soup Can checks rec'd to date:

28311
97754
37179
20111
71479
48415
62801
30736
72065
83706
82604
56477
68504 half-way point exceeded !!! On the downhill side now ....
29407
33170

Oldfeller

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/7mmsoupcanhighvelocitydesign_1.jpg

Dutch4122
11-26-2005, 01:24 PM
I have no problem with using the excess monies collected to pay the programming fee.

45 2.1
11-26-2005, 01:55 PM
I'll send money for a second one if you'll lap it to.

old goat
11-26-2005, 02:14 PM
...Go ahead. You already have the money.

...old goat

Oldfeller
11-26-2005, 05:32 PM
Bob, send the money and I'll lap your two molds.

Kelly

TCLouis
11-26-2005, 10:00 PM
PM or email me the snail mail and I will get you a check for 30 bucks. 13 dollar savings from the original dun makes this worthwhile!!

LouisB

DanWalker
11-26-2005, 10:09 PM
go ahead. The money is spent as far as I'm concerned.

35remington
11-26-2005, 10:41 PM
Same here. It's already spent. Go for it. I'm tickled I have the option of getting the mould in the first place, and a good friend has gone 50/50 with me. He had given up on the thought of ever finding a bullet that would work properly in his lever 7-30 Waters until this idea came along.

Oldfeller
11-27-2005, 08:25 PM
Counting Bob twice and me once, that's the required 8 votes to go ahead and make the 7mm Soup Can order (irregardless of the 25 requirement).

Waksupi, we got us another steamboat pulling up at the dock -- you got any 7mm guns? Hate for you to be shopping around for a mold after they actually come in and get shot and do good -- nobody wants to let one go then.

Starmetal Joe is waffling on us, he wants a 150 grain bullet. Surprise, a 130 grainer six banger mold in the hand is worth 10 molds off in the "I wanna 150 grainer" bushes ....

(you can't fit a 150 grainer into a six-pack mold anyway)

Besides, don't you think a 130 grain meplatted slug at your Sako's top end speeds isn't going to go "splat" just fine on a small-bodied Tennessee mountain deer, killing it deader than dead? Just not as all fired "bloody chunks dismemberment style" as the Boxcar will do, but how much deader than dead is "killed" enough anyway?

Folks with the 7mm Remington Magnums may have an interesting experimental quandry on their hands. This bullet fits their magnum's like a glove. They can put a lot of WC872 behind this little bullet and they generally have 26" barrels on their guns to soak up all the mild circa 35,000 psi pressure that such a large amount of WC872 can generate coming up behind a light cast bullet.

Bass, how fast can a 7 mag slow boost a 130 grain bullet at 35,000 psi in a 26" barrel? Can you even GET to 35,000 psi with WC 872 powder?

Hmmmm ... would this be considered a 150 yard cast varmint round? Or if you shot a deer with it, what would it be considered then -- a lung blow up bullet like a Nosler Ballistic Tip? You wouldn't really expect it to exit, not unless it was cast hard and then it might exit, maybe .... who knows?

Now, how many of you ever PLAN to buy a 7mm gun in the near future .....

8 more molds to go to the full 25 order.


Whoooooooeeeeeee !!!!!!! Whoooooooeeeeeee !!!!!!!


(steam whistle is blowing -- 15 days & counting)


Oldfeller

StarMetal
11-27-2005, 08:36 PM
Oldfeller,

No that's not it, what you said about a 130 grainer in my Sako. Fact is the my Sako shoots that Lee 130 gr like a match jacketed, so why mess with success. You say the new bullet might beat it? Wow! If it did Felix would be driving over this way to see the world's first truely 5 bullets in one bullet caliber hole. Yeah, that's just about how much better it would have to shoot in the Sako to beat the two cavity Lee 130 grainer.

I want the 150 grainer for my 7x57 Mauser carbine I'm currently building. I don't really hunt anymore so I don't need the weight for that.

Joe

waksupi
11-27-2005, 08:42 PM
Kelly, there are no 7mm's in the stable. And actually, I have been trying to work on weeding out some calibers and bore sizes. I'm wanting to sell off some of my lesser guns, and invest the money in one or two top end type firearms. The place I'm working at, offers an employees discount, so I may get something built there. Still haven't figured out what chambering though. Probably some weird, off bore size critter. Maybe something in a 9mm? Hmmmm....

Oldfeller
11-27-2005, 09:01 PM
Ric, smells like a long-barreled heavy bullet 35 Whelen to me

(9mm, my foot --- oops, I mean my pedo-mickymeter).

Naw, I hate wasting people's money so I am trying to find a just a few more 7mm buyers out there in fence-sitter land. It would be a shame to be this close to a 25 order and still not make it.

Oldfeller

Oldfeller
11-27-2005, 09:04 PM
Joe, where/how the heck did you get a two-cavity LEE 7mm mold?

?????????????????????

Kelly

StarMetal
11-27-2005, 09:14 PM
Kelly,

Ooops, sorry, meant single cavity. Sure got your attention though didn't it?

Folks Kelly twisted my arm to get one of the 7mm moulds. Said he would wax my truck five times, clean my rifles for six months, and rotate my tires several times if I got one, so I couldn't pass that up. Thanks Kelly, you're a real pardner.

Joe

Oldfeller
11-27-2005, 11:26 PM
Joe, no, I thought you HAD gotten one and it opened up all sorts of possibilities because Doug HAS cut longer than standard pistol mold blocks before (did one for Jumptrap as a matter of fact). LEE Jr. disallowed any "custom overlength blocks" about a year back, so I was hunting to see if the LEE wind had changed again.

Fact: LEE has cut .50 BMG molds at 750 grains, so they CAN cut sine mold blocks longer if they wish to. To them it is just a 10 ft long piece of extrusion, they can cut it any length they want (if they would want to).

No wax car, no rotate tires -- just nice moldy bullets.

Kelly

armexman
11-28-2005, 02:19 PM
Oldfeller, I'm sort of confused, how much do I have to send to get a 6-banger mold?

Pepe Ray
11-29-2005, 02:34 AM
Oldfeller, There's an E-mail on the way for responding/payment details.
This is so the others can keep talley of customers.
Great site. Looking forward to our association. Pepe Ray

Oldfeller
11-29-2005, 06:19 PM
Only 5 more molds to go .......

that is one mold order every three days. This is doable.


Now, I got Joe and Bob (the original "it won't fit" duet) to order over 1.3 molds each between the pair of them. Hee hee, that'll teach them to criticise a sexy little Loverin bullet, now won't it?

Now that only leaves Buckshot .....

I know all his money is getting spent on lathe stuff and he doesn't shoot his guns like he used to, but he WAS one of the orginal designers of the El Longo version of this same bullet and he did actually try to hawk that bullet for a 25 mold count too, so we know he likes it well enough to buy one now that they are actually going to be ordered.

And Buckshot certainly knows the accuracy benefits of shorter bullets -- he wrote the 6.5mm book on "short is sweet" as he does his very best shooting with them short stubby bullets.

And we KNOW he likes them six banger molds. And we also know he would buy a mold and resell it to somebody later once he got tired of it (lordy knows he's kept old Bob supplied with slightly used molds over the years).

Now Buckshot really wanted a "supersized diameter" mold orginally -- but they are available now on this shorter sweeter design -- so fat and sweet Bob is buying two of them and Joe is actually going to buy one for himself.

Aha! That's the ticket .... a Christmas present for Bucky Boy from his sweet wife Donna.

===========================


Oh Donna .........

He works his nubbies to the bone all the time and he's trying to save some money and he's gonna miss his mold if you don't get it for him for Christmas. He's too THRIFTY and RESPONSIBLE to get it for himself, but you love him enough to get it for him, don't you? Just say "supersized" when you order it 'cause that's the way he wants it.

We gotta take care of him, all of us.

Kelly

(P.S. there is an automatic rebate on this mold, and since you bought it you get the rebate)

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/7mmsoupcanhighvelocitydesign_1.jpg

Oldfeller
11-29-2005, 06:28 PM
Now, how many of you rascals have got a wife that's been telling you to not spend so much money on stuff around Christmas time?

Just give me a name and I'll speak to her gently. You get a Santy Claus too, you know. Them women loves your cranky old self -- and they will do things for you (if they know *what* to do for you).

Any of you dudes got any adult daughters (or daugthers-in-law) out there what are going to buy you an odd looking sweater for Christmas if I don't intervene and save you the trouble of having to return it?

Just gimme a name, boys ...... just gimme a name.

Oldfeller

45 2.1
11-29-2005, 07:02 PM
Just gimme a name, boys ...... just gimme a name.Oldfeller

Mrs. Oldfeller. Tell her he needs a second supersize mold!!!

SharpsShooter
11-29-2005, 07:02 PM
Now, how many of you rascals have got a wife that's been telling you to not spend so much money on stuff around Christmas time?

Just give me a name and I'll speak to her gently. You get a Santy Claus too, you know. Them women loves your cranky old self -- and they will do things for you (if they know *what* to do for you).

Any of you dudes got any adult daughters (or daugthers-in-law) out there what are going to buy you an odd looking sweater for Christmas if I don't intervene and save you the trouble of having to return it?

Just gimme a name, boys ...... just gimme a name.

Oldfeller


Bless you sir! We need more like you. :lol:

C1PNR
11-29-2005, 09:43 PM
You silver tongued devil you!:shock:

I just put another check in the mail for mould #2. I guess I've been good this year and deserve to treat myself.

btr-cj
11-29-2005, 10:12 PM
I’m in.
PM sent to OldFeller.


I do not have a 7mm yet but am looking for a takeoff barrel for a Turk I have in 7mm-08.

Thanks,

C.J.

Buckshot
11-30-2005, 04:01 AM
..............Kelly, I was thinking about going ahead and ordering one of the moulds, but I just bought 30,000 large rifle primers. That took a big hunk out of the unaccounted funds. Had it been 175grs I'd have been in on the deal from the gitgo. The short one required some thought as to if I was really going to be able to use it.

Lets see what happens in the next couple weeks. I think there is about that long left before you cut it off and send in the paperwork.

BTW, telling Donna how hard I work isn't going to fly. You'll look like a liar and an idiot. She knows all I do at work is hand out coffee and tiolet paper, and tell the drivers to go away and quit bothering me.

............Buckshot

Oldfeller
11-30-2005, 07:33 AM
Sounds like you got a workable plan there Buckshot -- just remember the checks will have to be cashed around the 15th and lumped together to be transferred to the middle man to start the order process. There won't be a long delay period where the checks sit idle.

Ok, that makes close enough to the 25 for me to quit worrying about it. I always order at least one unattached mold in case something goes wrong with lapping or mailing or whatever. It is cheap insurance.

Plus, there are always a cowboy or two who rides up to the dock after the boat pulls away, generally we just call them "Waksupi" and offer them sympathy and some lender bullets ....

Will this 7mm bullet set speed records? Yep, if it spins like the programs predict it will go faster than our normal light caliber bullets before going crazy. Plus you got a passel of 7 rem mags out there with LOTS of unused WC 872 capacity ...... I got a 7 mag son-in-law who has no plinker rounds, so I'll have to work him up something to plink with.

Will it shoot good? Soup cans generally do shoot very good, that's why we like them so much.

Oldfeller

StarMetal
11-30-2005, 11:42 AM
Kelly,

Can we call them Campbell Bullets??

Joe

Oldfeller
11-30-2005, 07:59 PM
Yup, your guns will anyway.....

Mmmmmm Mmmmmmm good !

Mmmmmm Mmmmmmm good !!

That's what 7mm soup can is .....

Mmmmmm Mmmmmmm good !!

===========================================

"Soup is good food ...."

===========================================

2,639 fps is a particular speed number, Joe -- what does it mean for this bullet??

40 grains of IMR 4064 or IMR 4895 will get up to that that speed in 7mm-08

IMR 5010 or WC 872 will slow boost to that speed very easily in a 7mm Rem Mag.

It is why this bore wall hugging bullet was created in the first place .....

<g>

Oldfeller

StarMetal
11-30-2005, 08:16 PM
2639 fps I think is 200,000 rpms in a 9 twist. IMR4350 works better in the 7mm-08 to get to that speed as it's not as hard on the bullet. I tell ya, there was no difference in shooting the 139 Hornady and the Lee cast 130 out of my Sako 7mm-08. Being the rifle is sighted in one inch high at 100 yards with the 139 Hornady, that's exactly where the cast bullets hit too. I love that. Also the groups are the same size too.

Joe

btr-cj
12-01-2005, 09:07 AM
Dropped the check in the box about an hour ago.

Thanks,
C.J.

rikkit
12-02-2005, 02:13 PM
Oldfeller check placed in mail early this AM, thanks for your efforts. 85308

Oldfeller
12-02-2005, 06:18 PM
Ah, but the question is -- will Dan remember his contest?

I will have two guns working at it, 7mm and 6.5. Eventually, I will make up a winner round & bullet, or you will, or Buckshot will.

Oldfeller


================================================


7mm Soup Can Update:

28311
97754
37179
20111
71479
48415
62801
30736
72065
83706
82604
56477
68504 half-way point exceeded !!! On the downhill side now ....
29407
33170
62801

I'm gonna have to start pluggin' it again -- still got 9 open molds and we are only 2 weeks out. Some folks posted a "yes" and didn't get around to sending a check yet, obviously.

Hey, all you group members, post again on the other lists where you go and ask them over there if they have any daughters or daughters in law that are going to be buying them dumb stuff for Christmas if not told differently? Remind them that nobody knows how fast a 7mm Rem Mag can slow boost this bullet -- and that if they don't shoot those 7 Mags occasionally the triggers do rust up on them.

And Dear Donna -- we need you darlin' -- we got some no shows and we have to fill in the holes or we won't get the full discount and we will have to pay the programming fee .....

.... and that will SUCK real bad for everybody involved.

Dear Sundog -- do you still have the slush fund money that you used to bail out one of the earlier BD 45 caliber bullets???

Did you ever get rid of all the molds you were holding ?????

Kelly

StarMetal
12-02-2005, 06:40 PM
Kelly,

As far as I'm concerned I beat Dan's contest. By that I mean had I mounted that target scope that resides atop my varmint rifle I firmly believe I would have gone on to do it.

Joe

felix
12-02-2005, 06:42 PM
Kelly, the 200K rpm grouping should be consistent and be statistically equivalent to a usual low speed group for Dan to pay off. That was the intent of his contest, I'm sure. ... felix

Oldfeller
12-02-2005, 06:59 PM
Felix,

Dan's contest (once he finished changing the rules that is) was very clear cut, 100 yards, one minute of angle (1") maximum group size repeated 3 times with 10 shot groups on a target, 3 sequential targets required for submission, with fps caliber and twist rate data required showing at least 200,000 rpm was achieved.

That's 30 perfect shots in a row.

Tough contest, and if Joe has won it already then, by Jolly Jumptrap -- post the targets and claim the prize !!

It is vaugely doable, you know ....

Oldfeller

Oldfeller
12-02-2005, 07:07 PM
Why did Rudolf the Red-Nosed Reindeer crash into the Chimmney?

Answer:

Joe shot him in the head with a 7mm Soup can out of his Sako rifle as Rudolf sped through the cold Christmas eve night air heading for Paduka, Kentucky. Santa was right pissed at his sudden freezer food, but Joe was able to give him some oversized Soup Cans to fit Santa's old "original issued" Boer South African military 7x57 Mauser (which made Santa go "Ho Ho Ho" again).

StarMetal
12-02-2005, 07:25 PM
Kelly,

You forgot rule #47, page 13, paragraph 4: You're not alllowed to clean the rifle during those 30 shots.

Joe

Pepe Ray
12-03-2005, 01:57 PM
Old Feller;
My check went out a couple of days ago. Have you received it?
BTW. What does the column of 5 diget numbers represent? I'll
catch up in time---maybe.
BD is a summer time shooting krony of mine. He's a great guy but lives too far from me to be very neighborly. He gave me some of his 45 BD's to test but I've had so much turmoil in my life this past year that I've done no H/G
shooting and only took the time to set up a rifle for my grandson to moose hunt with in Sept.
Pepe Ray

waksupi
12-03-2005, 05:02 PM
Pepe, the five digit series, are buyers zip codes.

Oldfeller
12-03-2005, 06:23 PM
7mm Soup Can Update: Six orders still needed

28311
97754
37179
20111
71479
48415
62801
30736
72065
83706
82604
56477
68504 half-way point exceeded !!! On the downhill side now ....
29407
33170
62801
04463
83706
02860

Yeah, and that no-cleaning rule means you have to use a non-buildup fouling powder, which lets out IMR 5010 for certain. You'd cake your bore badly before you got in all the 30 shots.

Pepe Ray, you see your zip code yet?

Actually I hope not, we need six more checks to make the 25 order quantity. Time to plug it some more boys, we need more 6 checks sent by this upcoming Wednesday so they will arrive by the 15th.

Bug
12-03-2005, 08:32 PM
I've decided I need one of these. If you'll send me an address, I'll post a check. I tried an email, but didn't get a reply. Email snail-mail addy to:
dujay(at)academicplanet.com
Thanks,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Bug.

Oldfeller
12-05-2005, 10:19 PM
7mm Soup Can Update: 4 orders still needed (supposedly in the mail)

28311
97754
37179
20111
71479
48415
62801
30736
72065
83706
82604
56477
68504 half-way point exceeded !!! On the downhill side now ....
29407
33170
62801
04463
83706
02860
85308
70726

Let's see, supposedly we have enough checks in the mail to make the full 25 so I think we are 100% good for the lower price now. Since we are full up on the 25 count, I'm going to start charging $10 for the oversized lapping since it takes me a awful long time to do six cavities correctly. This does not apply to the original people who requested it inside the 25 count, of course.

As a technical exercise, I'm going to post a fresh CAD drawing that is .001" removed on any of the very very few items that actually survived from El Longo, these are the meplat size, nose radius to 4 digits and width of lube groove and bands. Also, Bob had a good idea concerning LEE being totally out of control on the Linotype metal that they insist on using to fit the molds with lately, so I may raise the diameter of the sized bands a thousandth on that new trial balloon drawing as well. That way if LEE is .002" undersized (the way they have been recently running) they will still hit the original planned band diameter.

The little tiny BR nose, that is at some mild risk to be .001" undersized potentially to the original print. The bad side there is if it goes fat (over .284") and that isn't very likely the way LEE has been going lately. Small, yes, fat no.

But it's LEE ..... and they can do anything when they try real hard.

This new drawing isn't really required and we don't have to use the new CAD drawing at all, as Buckshot so subtly pointed out he used a modified open-list bit graphic just like this one to order the 6.5 Kurtz and he sees nothing wrong with doing it that way whatsoever. But having a new CAD drawing on hand isn't a bad place to be, either.

Since we aren't holding up for the new CAD drawing (which we will have next week anyway) I don't know if we will be asked to wait for the 30 Soup can guys or not. Our moderators will "suggest" accordingly next week, I guess.

armexman
12-06-2005, 10:29 PM
Oldfeller, hopefully By now you've received my MO,80516. The last few posts have gotten me nervous. Let me know as soon as possible as I do not want to miss out on this mold order.

Bug
12-07-2005, 05:48 PM
Oldfeller,
Been kinda foot draggin'. Really, I had to work, and just couldn't get to the P.O. My M.O. went out today via Priority Mail. so you should have it Friday, latest. Good on ya', mate! Thanks for your trouble.......................Bug.

Oldfeller
12-07-2005, 07:57 PM
7mm Soup Can Update: 3 orders still needed (supposedly in the mail)

28311
97754
37179
20111
71479
48415
62801
30736
72065
83706
82604
56477
68504 half-way point exceeded !!! On the downhill side now ....
29407
33170
62801
04463
83706
02860
85308
70726
80516

Oldfeller
12-08-2005, 12:05 AM
..... but is nice to have on hand if needed.

Some interesting items that came up while I watched my daughter draw it was the nose ogive and the meplat didn't look the same as before when they were drawn to scale -- to look more feedable and proportional a slightly smaller meplat was apparently needed.

This .010" smaller meplat may help the 7mm TCU guys get a better feed from their staggered magazines as the original .170" meplat was pretty large for the body diameter for so short of a cartridge.

Or do all you 7mm TCU guys shoot break-open Thompson Center pistols anyway ??? Please give that feedback as to if you are dealing with a box magazine fed gun or not with your 7mm TCU.

Also note the driver band diameter does go up a thousandth (.002" larger than the original diameter on the first drawing). Hopefully this provides enough LEE protection without going too far into the heavy sizing effects.

The BR nose is still at risk for a LEE error, but if they go undersize it isn't nearly as big a problem compared to it going oversize (potential loading difficulties and set-back into the case neck if they go oversize). Oversize on the nose is clearly out of print on a marked critical dimension with a + 0.000" tolerance, so print protection is available to the group member should it be needed.

Please remember, this new drawing IS NOT REQUIRED and is optional only. It was mainly a technical exercise to see what it actually took to get a clean unencumbered public domain drawing. This drawing has no shared dimensions with the original El Longo 7mm bullet (other than maybe the 4 main driver band diameters, but that really can't be helped if you want to have a little LEE undersized cutting insurance).

This drawing can be clicked on to expand it so you can see more clearly.
(you left mouse click on it, then click on it again, then click on it again)

DanWalker
12-08-2005, 10:43 AM
my tcu is a contender.
I'm hoping for as wide a meplat as possible. I hope to use this bullet cast soft ,on coyotes, and cast hard, on rabbits.

StarMetal
12-08-2005, 11:27 AM
Oldfeller

Let's just leave the bullet as originally designed. There's no need to be talking this or that on as all that does is gets a feel folks going such as DanWalker. It'll be fine, if one is concerned about feeding us smart ones always single finger load the first bullet and only have to worry about the second one feed and hopefully by the second your deer is down, or you at least put a bullet in him in a half decent spot.

Let's go as designed.

Joe

45 2.1
12-08-2005, 11:28 AM
Oldfeller-
Your daughter needs to check her nose radius, it doesn't work as drawn. It bulges past the tangency point on the front band. The correct nose radius to just tangent is 0.6146" or a little larger if you want a distinct separation. Check it as I want a correct mold.

Tom Myers
12-08-2005, 06:15 PM
Oldfeller

Pepe Ray beat me to it. The Ogive Radius shown on the drawing is not correct for a tangential ogive, given the listed length, base diameter and tip diameter.

I have posted a page on my website that contains the functions and algorithms that can be used to calculate any of the four aspects of a tangential ogive if any three of the other aspects are known.

http://www.tmtpages.com

Click on the "NEW Tangent Ogive Calculations" link under the "Online Technical Items" heading to open the Tangent Ogive page.

When I get more time, I will set up four data entry windows and the calculations can then be performed automatically on line. But for now, a hand calculator with a sqare root function will get the job done.

Hope this helps,
Tom Myers

bart55
12-08-2005, 09:30 PM
well I guess I need one of these too, if its not too late send me an amount and an addess and I willl have it in the mail asap, My computer has been down for a couple of days and I could not post M cooper m4bart@msn.com

45 2.1
12-08-2005, 09:30 PM
Pepe Ray beat me to it.


Pepe Ray did what???

Oldfeller
12-08-2005, 10:05 PM
Tom and Bob, taking the BR nose at it's .284" maximum print diameter (print max on the 0.030" long BR nose area) and extending that line how far does the ogive go past that extended line at the max ogive bulge point (on just one side)?

She's out of pocket tonight or I would ask her to check it out, give me the bulge numbers & to fix it.

(she got back to me -- and I quote
"it's .000202". wow, I'm amazed I didn't see that. :P")

I'm also curious if all 3 CAD packages see the same bulge numbers on this item (they should to several significant digits, but if they don't -- that's good to know too).

Bob's using Autocad, Katie's using Pro-E and Tom, which one are you using?

45 2.1
12-08-2005, 10:07 PM
I gave you the exact tangential radius figure above, use it as geometry doesn't change with what you use.

Oldfeller
12-08-2005, 10:30 PM
Yes, you did indeed. But it doesn't answer the question I asked, which was how much real radius effect (or 2x it for effective diameter) was added by the bulge situation you found. But that's OK, either Tom or Katie will answer that question.

As far as different CAD programs calculating radii slightly differently when you go out enough significant digits, you've never bumped into this before? Especially when you are connecting feature points to get to that radius?

Bob, I will always be nice to you and I will thank you for taking the time to review the drawing and for pointing out the error -- and it was indeed an error -- and I will also thank you for helping the group make the design better by doing so. This is possible when the detailed design and the tolerances are out on the table for folks to see and comment upon.

And please don't get cranked at Tom, Tom simply misspoke himself --- you ain't Pepe Ray. You are and always will be Bob.

45 2.1
12-08-2005, 10:43 PM
Yes, you did indeed. But it doesn't answer the question I asked, which was how much real radius effect (or 2x it for effective diameter) was added by the bulge situation you found. But that's OK, either Tom or Katie will answer that question.

As far as different CAD programs calculating radii slightly differently when you go out enough significant digits, you've never bumped into this before? Especially when you are connecting feature points to get to that radius?

Bob, I will always be nice to you and I will thank you for taking the time to review the drawing and for pointing out the error -- and it was indeed an error -- and I will also thank you for helping the group make the design better by doing so. This is possible when the detailed design and the tolerances are out on the table for folks to see and comment upon.

And please don't get cranked at Tom, Tom simply misspoke himself --- you ain't Pepe Ray. You are and always will be Bob.

You were supposed to be the checker. I check mine before I write or post something, it would be nice if others would do the same. CAD isn't geometry, on which CAD is based. Quite a difference in the names, i would say.

Oldfeller
12-08-2005, 10:47 PM
Guys, check this out .....

http://www.uslink.net/~tom1/Tech/Tangent_Ogive.htm

Tom, now that is an answer. And I appreciate you taking the time to make up that web page which answers this question to a T (because it is the example used on the web page).

Tom Myers
12-08-2005, 11:55 PM
45 2.1 Mia Culpa, I knew it was you that beat me to it, but I had just left the top of the page and Pepe Ray was the last name I saw, so it was the name I wrote. Please forgive.

Oldfeller, in order to have a secant ogive of 0.55 in radius, 0.269 length and 0.284 base, the tip would need to be 0.143 inches in diameter.
The software I use is of my own conception and design. The drawing module is just about to the stage of writing a companion help file. It instantly draws either a scale image or dimensioned sketch from measurements and data stored in a database and can either print the sketches and images or save them to a bitmap file.

When the help file is finished the software module will be placed for on-line distribution from my website.

Click the following link to check out the particulars of the program.

http://www.tmtpages.com/draw/draw.htm

I tried to attach two sketches of the 7mm SoupCan. One with the 0.160" Me plate and and the other with the 0.143" meplate that produces a 0.55" ogive radius, but they were to large. Instead, they are now posted on the website at the bottom of the Drawing module page. The images are identical except for the different ogive radii and tip size.

Tom Myers

Oldfeller
12-10-2005, 07:12 AM
Both sketches look good, but the one with the wider meplat looks better. Of course personally I have always been a sucker for a bigger meplat -- to the point I have learned to question the feeding aspects of what looks good rather than go with the instant gut feel choice (which to me is always bigger).

To get yourself a feeding concern, you need a OAL that fills a magazine and you need to have a cartridge that has a body diameter relatively closer to the bullet diameter so that the meplat is a big percent of diameter issue as it swings out of the box magazine and tilts up into the chamber.

From feedback gotten so far it seems we have nobody actually saying they are feeding a box magazine gun with the 7mm TCU cartridge, so my feeding concern really isn't so large any more. Thomson Center pistols really don't care all that much about how big a meplat is ....

And I really don't have a hard-on about using the old bitmap drawing, just so everyone takes a look at one of the new "to scale" drawings so they won't get surprised at what the bullet will actually look like when it arrives. And I do think it is a smart thing to bump the driver band diameter up to .288" to protect against just plain undersized stuff.

Now Joe, since you went and exercised your group rights in voting in the final design discussion, are you going to be sending in a check before we hit the deadline? Since the 30 Soup Can is going to be later on (next year, first quarter) I'm asking Waksupi if he thinks we ought to go ahead and order the things before the first of the year BEFORE good ol' Pat gets his yearly chance to "adjust things".

Lastly, anybody who fluttered up during the last greatest not quite a flame war and wanted out of the group buy on any of the bullets -- they need to PM their honcho and tell them that all "up front" right quick-like. There was so much fuss on so many threads nobody could keep up with all of it. Then the hand of God moved in and some of it has disappeared. If you have a check out with a honcho that you don't feel comfy with, tell us again -- please.

45 2.1
12-10-2005, 09:03 AM
Oldfeller-
You are being held to your word, so do a good job else everybody will here about it.

Tom--
Everything is OK.

Oldfeller
12-10-2005, 12:02 PM
Bob, folks way back then when I stared this custom mold ordering stuff back up again after Jumptrap's second group got LEE'd so badly and the list had given up on it as a bad deal -- some folks really thought I was kidding when I said you'd get a Zeiss report for your individual mold, a statistical analysis of all 100 molds measured "as-cut" with a coordinate measuring machine, a sizer die (if they ordered one) remade to size their bullet to the size they wanted within about 5 tenths, and a mold that cast the correct size for sizing in that die with no more than .001" out of round. And I also promised them mold blocks that were perfectly aligned with the mold handle motion (not slopping around) and if the mold met my standards I'd stamp it with the Oldfeller cartouche.

But that is exactly what they got, all of it.

And the lapped bullets shot minute-of-angle groups for those that could master the needed techniques (Sundog, Buckshot, Bruce B., you, Joe, and somebody else have all whupped my butt mercilessly with my own lapjobs).

Let's see, comments beforehand at the time said I was full of it and that none of this stuff was going to really happen. Some thought I was ripping people off somehow, mainly because I sold the molds so cheap (cheaper than they could be bought & shipped).

Now what went wrong then was that I got a lot more molds ordered than I figured would take place. It physically took too long to do all that and the last of the mold orders trickled out over several months, what with sending stuff back to LEE then having to fix the recuts anyway when they got sent back to me. But we all knew what was going on and folks were patient because of that.

The only outbound thing I screwed up in the whole deal was Mike in Co's sizer die size, I sent him the wrong one (because I couldn't read my own handwriting mainly) so I sent him mine and for the jollies I sent him a short lapper bar in case I didn't totally park it on the number for him (I did) but the bar was an earlier attempt anyway and I had a better longer one made up by then. Mike must have been happy, because he lent me his bolt bending blocks & stuff so we could earn some money for the Root's Roost shoot.

(which is still on, if anybody ever actually wanted to go to it -- his house is all built now BTW, he has finished the range and he has indoor plumbing too)

Now that was a good 'n. Folks told me I was full of it all over again -- I warn't no gunsmith and I was going to screw up somebody's bolt and ruin their gun. Not so, everbody who bit was happy with it. Mike still has the money (in the form of the range that he built I suspect).

================================================
end of past history section -- and down to current promises because I
don't promise to do all that stuff above this time around.
================================================



Let's see, this time around as 7mm Soup Can Honcho I have promised a clear published detailed drawing on the 7mm Soup Can for folks to discuss and thrash about ahead of time, tolerancing ranges (as discussed) that protect the group buyer from LEE screw ups, a copy of the order drawing and participation in a volume based discounted group buy. I promised rebate checks in the package with the mold for those who paid $56 early on. I promised to lap you out 2 molds to size down to .289" and one cavity for Joe (but he never sent in a check, so that's getting kinda doubtful at this stage) plus one other person who's name doesn't jump to mind, but he wrote it on his check so it will come out in the wash. I will be casting one cavity off each set of blocks, simply so I will know pretty much what part of the run that mold represents as far as the every changing LEE boring bar nose section variation goes. I will offer to let folks cherry pick what they want out of what we do get on a first communicated, first taken, first shipped basis.

As far as lapping a lot of stuff to fix it this time around, I may opt to let LEE recut a lot more stuff as they got off real light lately -- and somebody needs to point out our prints are to be followed, not ignored. This will likely delay things about as much as me trying to lap fix them all (but it will be alot easier on my poor wife's kitchen).

Once Waksupi comes back to me with his "recommendation" as to when to let it all fly, I'll cash my checks, combine my order with anyone else's that wants to ride along for the discount and go to dickering hard with the master distributors again (which is why I keep saying we need to do this before the first of the year as LEE WILL change the discounting structure somewhat -- remember Pat's little note back to us saying LEE Jr. "mispoke" himself?)

Now, folks who don't feel comfy with this arrangement can opt out -- and they need to go ahead and do it pretty soon by direct communication with their group buy Honcho. He likely needs the mold group's feedback pretty quick about taking part in the big group buy or not.

There ARE SIGNIFICANT RISKS for going through a master distributor discount chain -- mainly the drawing has to tell the tale completely and LEE has to be willing to follow the drawings in fine detail and to eat their errors through their own customer service. Snix Snax NO Takebacks from the distributor is a real risk with our folks individually having to go back to LEE customer service (or directly back to Doug, that would work better as it short-cuts Pat's nonsense completely) referencing back to the print itself.

Now, I really don't make any promises for anyone else's mold run (I can't) but I will say if some poor lost soul PMs me for a copy of a group buy drawing so he can go fight it out with LEE because he got a non-conforming mold -- he'll likely get sent the exact same drawing we used to order the stuff with.

Any questions? Don't forget you can left click on this drawing multiple times to expand it several times. The bullet is anticipated to come in near 130 grains based on LEE comments.

please note: driver bands went up to .288" as discussed earlier

StarMetal
12-10-2005, 12:33 PM
Kelly,

My check is in the mail today. Being you're right over the mountain from me you should get it Mon or Tue.

Joe

porkchop bob
12-10-2005, 11:35 PM
... I will be casting one cavity off each set of blocks, simply so I will know pretty much what part of the run that mold represents as far as the every changing LEE boring bar nose section variation goes. I will offer to let folks cherry pick what they want out of what we do get on a first communicated, first taken, first shipped basis. ...
Good evening, Oldfeller.
I expect a 7mm-08 will find a home here some day, but I do not anything at the moment in 7mm. So when the molds are available for distribution, I will take whatever you send and say Thanks.
Bob

Oldfeller
12-12-2005, 06:17 PM
7mm Soup Can Update: 25+ orders

28311
97754
37179
20111
71479
48415
62801
30736
72065
83706
82604
56477
68504 half-way point exceeded !!! On the downhill side now ....
29407
33170
62801
04463
83706
02860
03554
37319
85308
70726
80516
37179 and that's 25 mold orders in hand .....
18509
75831

130 grains thereabouts, latest and greatest drawing based on comments about not wanting to change the nose, double click on the drawing path below to see it magnified.

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=699

C1PNR
12-13-2005, 08:14 PM
That looks like a nifty boolit! Only three questions:

1) Is the drawing in post #64 the final?

2) What is our target weight again, I forget?

3) Can I get a better copy of the final drawing? The "hosted by" stuff at the bottom of the drawing obscured some of your wonderful prose.;)

Oops, I guess four questions - Are we there yet?:bigsmyl2:

Oldfeller
12-18-2005, 09:47 PM
No drawing can be finalized until LEE accepts the tolerancing and agrees to cut the bullet. As Chargar will tell you, Pat has recently refused to cut a bullet Doug has already agreed to cut .... he's done this several times (mulitiple times, different people).

Since we will be all COLD in everyone's mind after a month and a half of extra delay and we will be working through a distribution chain I would be crazy to try to tell you there aren't going to be any issues with the drawing per se -- especially since distributors always send their stuff to Pat instead of to Doug.

Just rest easy that we are talking about the same bit map that we always have been and the only recent change that was acceptable to everyone was increasing the driver band as cast diameter to .288". If we hit any snags the 15th of next month you will be told about it as soon as it is known.

DanWalker
12-19-2005, 10:08 PM
So, when will the order be placed? Any timeframe as to when we can expect delivery? I'm not getting imapatient, I just like being kept informed.

Oldfeller
12-21-2005, 06:47 PM
The 15th of January has been suggested as group order date.

This means all the preliminary work done last month with the distributors has gone under the bridge and over the dam and also the new 2006 LEE pricing structure will be in place when we strike up the conversations with the distributors shortly before the middle of January, so I fully expect some minor changes due to the delay. What exactly, I can't tell you -- we will all have to wait and see.

Another wrinkle is that my new job has decided to send me off to a week of out of town corporate training starting Jan 22, so I hope the honcho's listen when I say "send me in your drawing and your best guess on your mold count in advance so I can try to do some of the legwork with the distributors in advance". We need to actually place the order on the 15th, not just be starting collecting it all together.

I would have preferred to lock down 2005 pricing by placing the order before the first of the year, but that is not what was recommended by the group leadership.

So we roll with the circumstances.

Oldfeller

old goat
12-21-2005, 08:34 PM
...Oldfeller,
...You have a PM

...old goat

Oldfeller
12-21-2005, 11:26 PM
7mm Soup Can Update: 25+ orders

28311
97754
20111
71479
48415
62801
28311
72065
83706
82604
56477
68504
29407 half-way point exceeded. On the downhill side now ....
33170
62801
28311
04463
83706
02860
28311
37319
85308
70726
80516
37179 and that's 25 mold orders in hand .....
18509
75831


130 grains thereabouts, latest and greatest drawing based on comments about not wanting to change the nose, double click on the drawing path below to see it magnified.

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com...ttachmentid=699

scrapcan
12-27-2005, 11:45 AM
Just trying to get a current status on this thread. Are you done with taking orders? What is the expected order date? Pricing?

It gets difficult to trace after about four pages. Sometimes Ihave to pritn off the thread and carefully read and highlight on the hard copy. I thought by asking maybe it would help others aswell.

Thanks

Oldfeller
12-30-2005, 12:22 PM
28311
97754
20111
71479
48415
62801
72065
83706
82604
56477
68504
29407
33170 half-way point exceeded. On the downhill side now ....
62801
04463
83706
02860
37319
85308
70726
80516
37179
18509
75831

Update is that the requested delay to Jan 15 has cost us 4 participants and we no longer have the required 25 orders to place a mold order.

Yes, we are still taking orders.

PM me or email me for an address to send a check. Since there are no possible additional orders to group with (except maybe the 30 caliber soup can guys) I do not see much of a discount that is powered by larger order quantities. Send all new checks for $56 and I will rebate whatever discount is finally achieved.

Also, please note tolerancing change on the nose area that was requested by LEE. They do NOT claim to be able to cut molds any better than .003" total tolerance (and in fact over an entire mold run they may struggle and fail to do that). They will agree to TRY to hold a .002" tolerance -- that is all.

Now, delays and new tolerances -- not the best things to be giving people as a Christmas present. Hopefully the new year will bring better things.

Oldfeller

(remember to click on the drawing several times to expand it so you can read all the numbers)

Oldfeller
01-02-2006, 03:15 PM
I will be cashing all the group's checks on Wednesday, January 4th in the afternoon. If anyone has any reservations or questions about anything, now is the time to PM me with those concerns or questions.

Please don't go past the check cashing point with your questions unanswered, that is a bad thing for everyone concerned.

We are going to go past "the point of no return" on this upcoming Wednesday, January 4th when those checks get cashed.

Thanks,

Kelly

Oldfeller
01-05-2006, 01:59 AM
Well, I actually got three (3) questions. The answers are:

1) Is the cost of the molds going to go up?

Answer: We are going to negotiate like hell to keep to the original price line as lots of checks were taken in at that amount from not only the 7mm Soup Can group but by the 30 Caliber Soup Can group as well. Neither of us plan to lose money out of pocket.

However, between us we only (possibly) tally 50 molds, having the 60 molds from the other group drop out of the picture hurt our negotiating position quite a bit as we originally negotiated pricing at the 75-100 mold range.

If real pricing goes beyond the price point we took checks in at, obviously we will be talking to our members at that point. This has not happened yet as we are still pulling the checks together to find out which ones will clear, etc. Also remember, neither of us technically have enough orders to even place a real order right now when you get right down to it. I for one will be buying the extra molds required out of my pocket as I am tired of waiting.

2) When will the molds actually get there?

Answer: Generally, it has taken LEE a month to a month and a half to manufacture and ship molds when they are busy. This clock starts after the order gets to LEE. Obviously we lack a volume postition to be asking for any "rapid response" favors right now from either the distributor or from LEE.

I would expect the distributor to clump our order in with his next order (more possible delay). However, we will ride with his regular order, which will cut down on the LEE delay since we normally have to wait around for holes in their "regular business" to get our molds cut -- and it would tickle the **** out of me if that happened this time (hee hee) as this order will be "regular business" from a large distributor.

3) How do you feel about all this?

Answer: I don't have any feelings right now -- I got my game face on and I am dealing with the changing variables just like I have to do every month at work with situations much more stressful than this.

Guys, every distributor based LEE group buy is a endless chain of unexpected fun right up until a month after the thing is over when the last of the "oh by the way" miscellanious charges show up and are paid. LEE will stick it to the distributor with little miscellanious ******** charges associated with the mold runs and they pass it on to us weeks after the fact. You pay them as they are part of doing business through LEE's distribution chain.

Oldfeller
01-16-2006, 03:58 PM
We have a provider who will hit the $43 price -- if our drawings adhere to LEE's standard custom cut .003" tolerance ranges (ie. the distributor has no risk due to tolerancing issues).

This means both honchos will need to alter their drawings slightly.

For example, on the 7mm soup can I will lower the nose section print minimum .001" and raise the print maximum on the driver bands by .001" -- this makes the total tolerance range on both items fit LEE standard .003" tolerancing at no risk to bullet function (nose will still engrave and driver bands will still lubricise).

Whether this is acceptable to both groups is yet to be decided.

Oldfeller

PS In dealing with LEE, we have gotten a lot of "we'll try to hit .xxx" or "we'll do the best we can to hold that" then we got undersized bullets and wide tolerance swings compared to our tiny tolerances.

What we didn't get was fixed bullet molds when we were "out of print" as we were non-conforming to LEE's offical mold cutting tolerances in the first place. Perhaps we are actually just now getting in line with the realities of dealing with LEE (being forced to use LEE .003" tolerancing to get the discount through the distribution chain).

C1PNR
01-16-2006, 10:56 PM
Well, in an abundance of optimism I've saved that drawing as "7mm Soup Can Final maybe" and hope we may now proceed with the order.

Thanks again for doing this, I wouldn't have the patience.:veryconfu

Oldfeller
01-21-2006, 02:14 AM
Here is an example of a marked up order drawing. This drawing will be placed through a distributor for $37 for 25 molds tomorrow around 11:00 AM when the post man comes to pick up the mail.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/asordered7soup.jpg