Hunting the woods...what is a brush gun?

[OS OK]

NOTICE (EDITED AFTER THE FIRST 6 POSTINGS)...This video is NOT about shooting blindly through brush and not identifying your target.

It is NOT about purposely choosing a shot through the brush with an identified target.

IT IS ABOUT...which caliber has a CHANCE of staying on trajectory after hitting brush that you did not know was there.

Iraqveteran8888 is only trying to compare caliber, weight of projectiles, profiles and their speed...THAT IS ALL.

IF YOU ARE INTERESTED AFTER THIS, HAVE A LOOK...IF NOT, THEN I'M NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR COMMENTS.









We all have our choices for hunting our particular neck of the woods...as a youth in South Texas I preferred the old Marlin 336 in .444 .
But regardless what our preferences are...it leaves me wondering what's truly a best choice.
Iraqveteran8888 has a flick out that addresses this in a cursory sort of way but it's very interesting to see actual empirical results...
It's a short flick...but it's interesting, give it a look.

What is a Brush Gun? - Duration: 17:15. Iraqveteran8888 14,932 viewsNew (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5dve7vAY9I)

[jhalcott]

I have to worry about shooting at SOME THING Ican not positevely identify. My grand dad drilled tthat into me as a preschooler . If I can notsee the target I Do NOT shoot.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Indeed target identification is important. But we do identify targets most of the time, or we wouldn't be there. So assuming we can...

Many people consider a big, blunt bullet essential for use in undergrowth. But this can be a mistake. You can often identify a target clearly enough through a thin mesh of twigs, and a small calibre gives the best chance of getting through without touching anything. Also even woods hunting can require shots where the mid-range trajectory of a big, slow bullet is inches above the line of sight. A high velocity bullet may be less likely to hit branches you didn't even know were in the way.

[OS OK]

OMG...I knew this comment would land here eventually, just didn't anticipate it first! "Thank you for pointing out the obvious!"

What this is about is...the one single twig that causes an errant shot.

[Mica_Hiebert]

For me a brush gun is something light and short that doesn't get hung up while clawing my way through the thick stuff and is quick on target... caliber has little merit to me for this task as the idea of a "brush gun" is not a bullet that will shoot through brush/twigs/limbs to kill the critter on the other side.

[dragon813gt]

Short(relative) barrel, open sights in a larger caliber. The larger caliber is not to break through the brush to hit the target. It's to put more energy on target and anchor the animal. Last thing I want is for it to take off and have to track it through thick brush.

[jhalcott]

I have and use the .35 Remington, 358 JDJ and 45-70 in 14" TC Contender barrels. They ARE used as "brush" guns, BUT I still identify my target before shooting. I have seen where "hunters" have mistaken dogs and or people for deer in the woods. I have been mistaken for deer on occasion, fired at twice but they never hit me. In both cases I was over 6 feet tall and 225 +pounds. One case was on private property that I was the only one with permission to hunt , the other happened on public lands.

[tdoyka]

We all have our choices for hunting our particular neck of the woods...as a youth in South Texas I preferred the old Marlin 336 in .444 .
But regardless what our preferences are...it leaves me wondering what's truly a best choice.
Iraqveteran8888 has a flick out that addresses this in a cursory sort of way but it's very interesting to see actual empirical results...
It's a short flick...but it's interesting, give it a look.

What is a Brush Gun? - Duration: 17:15. Iraqveteran8888 14,932 viewsNew (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5dve7vAY9I)

yes, i watched it. he did kinda the same thing that john wooters did, expect wooters used dowel rods. (read it sometime ago when there wasn't a internet, for you youn'uns, it was a long time ago when we used stone tablets![smilie=1:, like the 1980's[smilie=l:)

i wonder if anyone does a cast boolit article, one that uses a wide meplat. i gave up on the gun rags(had to be the late 90's) and outdoors tv, which i rarely watch.

i've used lever, bolt and a single shot while going thru the brush. a jacketed bullet that uses a round nose or a flat point kills deer no matter what caliber is used(243-45-70). i have never missed one because of brush tho. i have taken deer when i use the nosler bt in brush, but i try to avoid the brush and little twigs when i'm taking my shot. i've only killed one deer with a cast boolit. it was 93 yards in the field, so brush wasn't a factor. i figure the boolit(165gr ranch dog in 30-40 krag) had to be going around 1600-1700fps(around 1800fps at the muzzle) when it smacked the deer. it was drt. my 444 marlin (tc encore with 23" MGM barrel) goes roughly 2000fps with a 275gr ranch dog and my 45-70 handi does roughly 1400fps with a 405gr fbfn. i expect both of them to work. i've never shot thru the brush because it looked like a deer, instead i try to make sure(100%+) it is a deer. quite a few have gotten away from me, but you can't shoot what you might see, esp if it turns out that "it" might be another hunter.

[UKShootist]

An interesting video. Thanks for posting the link. The more you know about shooting the better you can do what's right.

[44man]

For me a brush gun is something light and short that doesn't get hung up while clawing my way through the thick stuff and is quick on target... caliber has little merit to me for this task as the idea of a "brush gun" is not a bullet that will shoot through brush/twigs/limbs to kill the critter on the other side.
This is the actual answer.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Fast handling -distances are usually close (under 100 yards). Set-up for off-hand shooting - most shots will be taken off-hand though sometimes kneeling allows for a more clear and steady shot. An extremely crisp light trigger to support off-hand shooting and rapid target acquisition. A 'low-powered scope' 2.5 to 4 (I like 3 power - thats where I set the variables I use.) A low-powered scope allows one to pick a hole, again PICK A HOLE through the screen of brush - not chop wood with your bullet. Lots of power - a 100 yard run can make finding a dead critter difficult to impossible in tough terrain - a big exit hole helps tremendously when they don't fall down at the shot. A fast second, third,fourth shot - not because you missed, but because it DID NOT FALL DOWN. Rifle weight and length ? Whatever is fast handling to you. Lots of off-hand practice, taking rapid multiple shot. Shooting 1/2" groups from a rest means nothing. 2 shots in a 6" circle at 100 yards - from carrying position under 2 seconds is really good.

[Texas by God]

For me a brush gun is something light and short that doesn't get hung up while clawing my way through the thick stuff and is quick on target... caliber has little merit to me for this task as the idea of a "brush gun" is not a bullet that will shoot through brush/twigs/limbs to kill the critter on the other side.

This!

[Smoke4320]

not going to nitpick the errors but it does show that the speedy pointed bullet did deflect and the much larger /heavy bullets punched thru
so info is usable
all it takes is one branch to throw off a shot with the wiz bang super duper magnums

[adcoch1]

A brush gun to me is small/short enough to be easily maneuvered through brushy environments. I commonly use an sks as a brush gun when the shooting will be short due to line of sight limitations. Once though i met a deer at about 12 feet away and snapped a quick aimed shot at it. The bullet lodged in the vee of a scotch broom bush between me and the deer, and just below line of sight through the sights. Weird problem, so i stood a few inches taller and shot the deer that was standing there shaking the powder from the last shot off and down it went. I am glad the first bullet didn't shoot through the brush or i wouldn't have had a tasty deer to take home. Don't plan on ANY bullet effectively hitting a target after coming in contact with brush on it's flight path...

[JWT]

For me a brush gun is something light and short that doesn't get hung up while clawing my way through the thick stuff and is quick on target... caliber has little merit to me for this task as the idea of a "brush gun" is not a bullet that will shoot through brush/twigs/limbs to kill the critter on the other side.

Agreed. In Michigan use a Winchester 100 carbine in 308. Plenty of power and a quick follow up if necessary. I also bring along a Marlin 336 in 35 Remington in case something happens to the Winchester.

[M-Tecs]

In the mid 70's I did a much more detailed test. I built a rest and a holder for wooden dowels. This allowed me to compare different calibers (22-250, 243, 6mm Rem., 7mm Rem., 30/30, 308 30/06, 338 Win, 444, 45 Colt, 45/70 and 50 cal. muzzleloader) and the same hits on the dowel.

HV rounds with high bullet RPM deflected less than big and slow, however, the HV sometimes disintegrated whereas the big and slow would hold together.

In all cases the bullets would start a cork screw path to the target. None of the bullets could be depended to hit the target much behind the dowel but the higher the bullet RPM the less it deflected.

If I am doing a drive or stalking I use the traditional short handy type rifle. If hunting out of a stand in heavy brush I use a rifle with a higher power variable scope. Since the shot will be at a standing or slow walking animal I have the scope at 10 power. I can see ever twig and branch have no problem sneaking the bullet through. No more poke and hope shots. I have killed around a 100 deer in very heavy brush out of a stand using this method.

The reason big and slow have the reputation that they are brush busters is simple because the bullets hold together and they may bounce into the target but every bullet deflects greatly when it hits even a small twig.

[rodwha]

Thanks for the video! Very interesting.

I've seen it debated whether or not a blunt bullet busted through brush better. Guess this shows that it does.

For me a brush gun is short and light. For my first muzzleloader I decided on a Lyman Deerstalker as it has a 24" barrel and weighs 7.5 lbs.

I'd be curious how a .308 Win or .30-06 Sprg with a 180 grn RN does in comparison.

[M-Tecs]

IMHO that video shows and proves nothing since their is ZERO consistency in if and what type of brush is hit. In my test the dowel was about three feet in front of the muzzle. I could control how the dowel was hit. Nothing I tested would give dependable hits on a deer size target at 20 yards beyond the dowel. I did test 30 cal 150 grain, 165, 180 and 220 grain bullets. None did well and I don't remember if one was better than another but I do remember being surprised by the 220 grain blowing up more than the lighter bullets.

better tests here:

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/hunting/2014/05/how-much-does-brush-deflect-rifle-bullet?src=SOC&dom=fb

http://www.chuckhawks.com/brush_bucking_bullets.html

http://chuckhawks.com/woods_rifles.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-40-deflected-bullets-and-the-box-o-truth/ center punching the dowel or a side hit has a large effect on bullet deflection.

https://www.shootersforum.com/ballistics-internal-external/61743-bullet-deflection.html

The bottom line is none of the normal hunting calibers handle brush well.

I shoot a lot of prairie dogs from prone. Even a blade of grass will deflect bullets.

[44man]

Not even a big round ball from a ML will get through. Just can't hit anything between.

[KYCaster]

I did a similar test years ago and came to a completely different conclusion.

My target was similar to his, but I was aiming for a 8 in. dia. "vital zone" and didn't consider a hit anywhere on the target as a "humane kill". I also tried to find the limb/twig/brush that the bullet struck so I could try to evaluate what happened between twig and target.

The bullets I used were...358-180-WFN at ~1150fps. from a .357 mag handgun, a .358-200-FP(Lyman 35857) from the same handgun. A RCBS 35-200-FP and a Win 200RN PowerPoint, both at a hair over 2000 fps. in a Marlin 336 35Rem. A 44-240-SWC(Lyman 429421) and a .431-270-WFN, both from a Ruger SRH 44 mag., both of these at about 1150 fps.

The single biggest factor I found in my testing was....LUCK!

Was I lucky enough to get through the brush to the target without hitting anything between? Was I lucky enough to hit the twig dead center rather than on the edge?

I didn't bother to do any extensive testing because it was clear from the start that a bullet that hit brush would be affected. If I was lucky enough to hit the twig dead center then the hit on target could very well be somewhere near the POA, but would most likely tumble and may have been deformed, thereby changing the terminal effect.

Any hit other than centered on the twig resulted in various degrees of deflection. The most dramatic effect was a 35857 that hit a 3/8" dia. ironweed about 30" in front of the target. It left a perfect half bullet diameter notch on the left side of the stem and struck the target 19" left of POA.

So my conclusion is, pick your brush gun based on how well it handles in the heavy cover, not how well it shoots through brush.....because it doesn't!

Jerry

[M-Tecs]

I did a similar test years ago and came to a completely different conclusion.

My target was similar to his, but I was aiming for a 8 in. dia. "vital zone" and didn't consider a hit anywhere on the target as a "humane kill". I also tried to find the limb/twig/brush that the bullet struck so I could try to evaluate what happened between twig and target.

The bullets I used were...358-180-WFN at ~1150fps. from a .357 mag handgun, a .358-200-FP(Lyman 35857) from the same handgun. A RCBS 35-200-FP and a Win 200RN PowerPoint, both at a hair over 2000 fps. in a Marlin 336 35Rem. A 44-240-SWC(Lyman 429421) and a .431-270-WFN, both from a Ruger SRH 44 mag., both of these at about 1150 fps.

The single biggest factor I found in my testing was....LUCK!

Was I lucky enough to get through the brush to the target without hitting anything between? Was I lucky enough to hit the twig dead center rather than on the edge?

I didn't bother to do any extensive testing because it was clear from the start that a bullet that hit brush would be affected. If I was lucky enough to hit the twig dead center then the hit on target could very well be somewhere near the POA, but would most likely tumble and may have been deformed, thereby changing the terminal effect.

Any hit other than centered on the twig resulted in various degrees of deflection. The most dramatic effect was a 35857 that hit a 3/8" dia. ironweed about 30" in front of the target. It left a perfect half bullet diameter notch on the left side of the stem and struck the target 19" left of POA.

So my conclusion is, pick your brush gun based on how well it handles in the heavy cover, not how well it shoots through brush.....because it doesn't!

Jerry

Basically your results mirror my tests from the 70's. The video is not a test. Its just an idiot shooting at a target with no control over if and what brush he hits. It hard to pack that much BS in 17.14 minutes.

[GhostHawk]

I watched it, good enough video.

I thought the .223 was pretty instructive as was the .308.

Once he got up to the .35 rem I noticed there were no more wild shots, they were all within 8 inches, aimed for the breadbasket of a deer they would all have been fatal.

I think most misses after the .308 were the result of hard to see target not deflection.

I would liked to have seen what the .444 would have done with a load a bit slower, 310 gr cast lead boolit moving 1500-1600 fps. I think actually the last 3 were quite close.

I think you could add .44 mag and .45lc to that list and at 50 yards they would be just as effective.

I happened to get an education in what happens to a high velocity light weight bullet that hits a twig pencil sized or smaller. I was aiming at a crow in the tree's with my Rem 788 in .243.

Load was 30 grains of Dupont 3031 below a hornady 60 grain boat tailed hollow point jacketed bullet.

The crow died, but it was mostly wood that hit him. It looked like an explosion or a shotgun blast went off up in the tree's.

So I walked out there, judging by the shreds of wood and bark on the snow ititial impact of bullet on branch was about 15 feet in front of the crow.

Front of the crow had splinters of wood sticking out of its breast, and I saw a few shreds of copper gilding metal. Some part of the core may have gone into it, but nothing exited out the back side.

That was one dang fine varmint shooting gun, and man I loved busting crows 300 yards out and more. Especially if there was more than one.

But that was where my road started turning away from small and fast and headed down to big, slow and deadly country. It took me a lot of years to come to see that those big nasty recoil producing rifles could be downloaded, tamed, and still be deadly.

[rodwha]

Chuck seems to agree for the most part with the guy in the video. Look at what he recommends and why.

I'm not sure anyone is saying that larger heavier bullets aren't impacted, but that they are impacted less. And this is shown each time in each article you linked.

The guy's video may not have been scientific as no two shots could be the same. We can only assume the brush was quite thick as he stated. However despite going through branches they still hit the target. That says quite a bit actually. Now we have no idea where his POA was to compare the POI. However we can be fairly certain he was indeed aiming at the steel plate.

[rodwha]

To be clear I'm not advocating shooting through brush. I haven't as of yet but most of my medium game hunting has been from a blind where brush hasn't been an issue.

However it seems to me to be a bit prudent to use a heavy for caliber bullet in a brush gun, one carried in thick woods as unseen interference may happen.

[M-Tecs]

Some bullets/calibers fair better than others but none give any predicable for anything past ten yards beyond the deflection point. Common sense is that slow and heavy would be best. That didn't hold true in my tests but my methods were different.

Everything was fired from a bench rest with the dowel holder 3 feet in front of the muzzle. Dowels varied in size from 1/8" to 1" and I could control how the dowel was hit. Targets were placed from 10 feet behind the dowel to fifty yards. Targets were 4' x 8' cardboard that were placed in a line so I could see the cork screw bullet yaw effect.

When I first started the testing I just used a bunch of brush. One shot would not hit any brush and the next would hit 10 branch's. Nothing predictable so I switched to the dowel holder

The 45/70 with 385 grain Lyman 457124 faired very poorly compare to the HV fast spun bullets. The 405 Remington bullets did much better not nearly as well as the 7mm with 175 grain bullets.

After hundred of rounds tested nothing proved to be a reliable brush buster.

[SSGOldfart]

For me a brush gun is something light and short that doesn't get hung up while clawing my way through the thick stuff and is quick on target... caliber has little merit to me for this task as the idea of a "brush gun" is not a bullet that will shoot through brush/twigs/limbs to kill the critter on the other side.
My ideal of a Brush Gun is about the same as above,30-30 336 marlin fit that bill for many years,now I just pack a 44on my hip. My days of low crawling or over... to old and broken down these days.:drinks::castmine:

[rodwha]

Some bullets/calibers fair better than others but none give any predicable for anything past ten yards beyond the deflection point. Common sense is that slow and heavy would be best. That didn't hold true in my tests but my methods were different.

Everything was fired from a bench rest with the dowel holder 3 feet in front of the muzzle. Dowels varied in size from 1/8" to 1" and I could control how the dowel was hit. Targets were placed from 10 feet behind the dowel to fifty yards. Targets were 4' x 8' cardboard that were placed in a line so I could see the cork screw bullet yaw effect.

When I first started the testing I just used a bunch of brush. One shot would not hit any brush and the next would hit 10 branch's. Nothing predictable so I switched to the dowel holder

The 45/70 with 385 grain Lyman 457124 faired very poorly compare to the HV fast spun bullets. The 405 Remington bullets did much better not nearly as well as the 7mm with 175 grain bullets.

After hundred of rounds tested nothing proved to be a reliable brush buster.


It doesn't sound as though you could have been any more thorough. I like that you placed several sheets of cardboard so as to see the track. Slick!

I wouldn't purposely shoot through brush, but I wouldn't have thought grasses would do much of anything. This is a surprise to me. I could see being quite focused on a deer and not realizing something minimal in the way.

[M-Tecs]

I started gun hunting for deer in 1970. That was 4 years before a could by a license but mom bought one and came with me. Those were the only four years she went out hunting.

Dad had hunted deer since 1950 but that was in open areas. In 1969 a friend purchase a river bottom ranch that was deer rich but very heavy woods/brush. We started with 30/06's using 220 round nose cause that was recommend for heavy woods. In the first couple of years we poked and hoped a lot and got some bad hits.

Fur prices were high so when I got my drivers license at 15 (1975) I sold the 30/06 and purchased a Browning Sako barreled action in 243 for fox and coyote hunting. I put a 3.5 x 10 Leupold on it. From the tree stand I always had time to turn the scope up to 10 and pick a shot though the brush. I killed 40 or 50 deer with that rifle in very heavy brush. All but one was a one shot kill.

One of the jobs I had was I reloaded for a 7th Calvary re-enactment club. For the club I loaded 45 Colt and 45/70 however most of the members had me load for their hunting rifles. Same for my classmates so I got to play and test a large variety of rifles.

Shooting through grass is something that I have never tested. but, as I stated I shoot a lot of prairie dogs. When prone and shooting through grass I do get some wild shots. Calibers are 223, 22-250 AI, 220 Swift, 6mm BR, 6mm XC, 243 Win and 6.5 x 284. Grass in front of the muzzle will sometimes give shots way off call. It happens less than I would expect but it does happen.

It's been a long time since I did the test but nothing was predictable. With how I had the dowels setup I could test the same shot and hit over and over. Sometimes the bullet deflected very little yet the next shot they deflected greatly.

I have long since given up on looking for a magic brush busting caliber/bullet. Other than shooting prone at prairie dogs though grass if I can't pick a clear shooting lane I don't take the shot.

All I see in the OP's video is a clown trying to justify his beliefs without any repeatability or controls in his example. I won't call it a test because it is not.

His statement that if you can seeing it you can kill it is BS.

[dale2242]

My brush gun, open/clearcut area gun for that matter, is a 25-06.
Most shots at deer here are under 100 yards.
I just don`t shoot at game through brush.....dale

[Bigslug]

The answer is pretty simple if you stop and think about it:

Q. What bullet do we choose to deliver straight-line, tissue-damaging penetration in meat? A. One that's heavy-for-caliber, with a large meplat.

Q. What bullets take the lest pressure on their sides when passing through paper targets? A. Wadcutters.

Q. In tactical/defensive shooting, what's the best angle for getting through barriers like auto glass, car doors, etc...? A. As close to 90 degrees as you can get.

A long, tapering ogive is more likely to catch a twig on the curve than the tip of the nose. This is likely to divert the round. A large meplat is more likely to give you something like a 90 degree, straight-on impact, cutting through the obstacle rather than bouncing. Extra weight behind the nose will incline it to keep on truckin'. One of my fun guns is a .455 Webley in which I shoot the original profile, 265 grain MKII bullet, which is pretty similar in shape to a lot of rifle spitzers:

181849 181850 I cast them out of really soft @40-1 that I render down from fired shotgun slugs, but it probably wouldn't matter if I cast them out of Play Dough. When shooting cans or water bottles, they penetrate, hit the hard packed dirt behind, and very reliably skip up to be found on the berm at chest to head height 10 to 20 yards behind. The WC's, Keiths, LFN's and WFN's are much more inclined to burrow.

Hard vs. soft is going to be more of a consideration for the game in question and local hunting laws, but the bullet that doesn't smudge on impact with a twig is more likely to proceed on the original path.

[OS OK]

In the 60's in Texas we hunted right of ways that the Ranchers intentionally cut into their hill country ranches with elevated stands at intersections...that was great and my scoped 7mm Rem-mag was my choice.
When we would stalk into the woods, thick brushy woods, then find a clearing and sit there we carried a lever gun, didn't prefer a scope in the thicket. We didn't go thrashing around climbing through the bush and thicket so length of rifle was not of concern...we didn't relate 'brush gun' with thick woods in that respect as you would relate the length of a fishing rod to brush and trees.
Shots were clear and unmistakable but you never had any control over the bare twigs that lay in between.
For that reason we referred to them, as our elders did also as a brush gun...called that for the caliber and profile choice and because it had a better chance of defeating that twig you didn't see.

40 years later I was going to zero a .308W @ 200 yards after I had laddered and refined that load @ 100 yards.
I expected to see the first shot @ 200 to be about 4.5" low...instead I thought I saw several flies sitting on the target, small specks that looked like flies. I fired the second round after I didn't see the first and I got the hole exactly where I thought, low (didn't notice whether the flies took off or not). I go to fire a third and fourth before deciding on a scope adjustment and no hole...more flies on the target...WTH?

I walked to the target and discovered the flies were fragmentation of the rounds...10 yards in front of the backstop there was a skinny bare bush that I could not see in the 24X scope. Then it all came into perspective...
I was using 168 grain match HPBT's at 2650 FPS through a 1:12" stock barrel...nothing exotic but they were fast enough that they fragmented.
These twigs were about the size of a kitchen match some were almost twice the size...I went to break them off and they were tough little buggers, I had to get the pocket knife out and cut them. Don't know what the bush was named but it was tough enough to frag my rounds.

This is all Iraqveteran8888 was trying to point out, nothing more. It wasn't a science lab experiment...I had no idea this simple principal would rile the experts so...very amusing!

[Digital Dan]

Is not so amusing to spend the better half of a day looking for an injured but very much alive deer or hog. "Brush Gun" is a very general term which carries different meaning to every reader. The picture below is "open country" in my neighborhood.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/pig%20pen/DSCN1956_zpsc82cdd08.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/pig%20pen/DSCN1956_zpsc82cdd08.jpg.html)

This might be considered "brushy":

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/IMG_1423_zpsdbr1j7nk.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/IMG_1423_zpsdbr1j7nk.jpg.html)

Rifles make poor brush guns. Shotguns and buckshot are much more reliable. What's in your backyard probably maybe is different and you have a different perspective.

[kycrawler]

When Hunting kentucky this year I slipped crossing a creek and whacked my 30-06 pretty hard. Not wanting to shoot and confirm the scope. I switched to my 338 win mag that was in my rifle case from my alaska trip . 5 th day of the hunt from a tree stand I shot at an 8 pointer at 70 yards the 250 grain hornady interlock hit a twig about half way and Deflected hitting a doe about 10 feet away from the buck right at the head neck junction the bullet then hit another yearling doe beside her in the head. Bottom line is if you hit a stick built it's going off course. Just depends alot how far are that the stick was from the target I f you have a hit or not

[Blackwater]

The concept of a "Brush Gun" has been tossed around and argued for many years. The best analysis of what calibers "get through brush" best was one written by Jack O'Connor many years ago in Outdoor Life when he was shooting editor. He actually set up some targets and shot through hardwood dowels and measured and quantified the different results. The '06 and .270 and .30/30 didn't fare very well. Bullets, when driven fast, heat up CONSIDERABLY via simple friction with the air at Mach II plus. This softens the cores, and lets the bullets become misshapen when they strike any sort of real resistance, like even a blade of grass, broomsage, small limbs, etc. This throws the bullet out of balance, and at the RPM's it's rotating, inaccuracy results, and in direct proportion to how badly it's misshapenn. And how badly it's misshapen depends on how squarely or at an angle the bullet strikes its intervening brush.

The .375 H&H did better than the 3 above, and the .458 did fairly well. Can't recall whether he used solids or not, but IIRC, he did in the .458. The 12 ga. slug fared the best of them all (plain, Foster type slugs). IIRC, I believe he said he's heard from good, reliable sources that the Brenneke slugs were even better, but you'd need to check that due to my faulty memory.

The surprise of the lot was the 6.5 calibers with long 156 gr. bullets in fast twist barrels. They did the best of all the more common "deer caliibers," and it seems their stability after striking intervening obstructions wass due to their RPM rate, and their bullet length. That was the theory, anyway. I know my FIL who fought in the Pacific during WWII said the Japs created their 6.5, or ".25 as he called it," was so they could shoot through the palm trees on some of the island campaigns and get the American soldier hiding behind it. And he said it worked pretty darn good for the Japs, too, and bad for our GI's.

Mostly, though, I think of the "Brush Gun" as being a short, light, very quick handling rifle that you can bring to bear on your target BEFORE it disappears into the brush, which is always just a hop, skip or jump away in real brushy areas. If you're quick, you get to shoot at an unobstructed target. If you dawdle or fumble, all you can do is have a "brush shot," or shoot where he went, and THAT can be VERY dangerous! Other hunters have been killed by guys taking "brush shots!" DON'T DO IT!!! Deer just aren't that important to put someone else's life on the line to take one!

Guys who hunt from stands generally have the latitude of waiting for a good broadside or gently angling shot, if they simply control their impulses. And if they raise their rifles very slowly, it won't usually spook most deer. Big bucks are a law unto themselves, though, and generally notice ANY movement at other than a molasses in winter's pace. And like in turkey hunting, the best time to raise your gun is when they're looking away from you and focusing on something in that direction. You still need to move slowly, though. Experience will teach you HOW slowly in your area with your deer population. Those populations DO differ from area to area.

For my own use, I consider my .44 and .45/70 carbines to be my "best brush guns," but I still don't trust them to shoot straight after hitting intervening vegetation. I once had a deer at 65 yds. in front of me, and its whole chest was blocked by the tip of a pine limb. It was less than 6 ft. behind that limb, and I was using an '06 with 165 PSP's at good velocity. I figured it'd shoot straight enough after hitting that soft, white tip on that pine bough, that I could just aim for the center of the chest, and if it went left, it'd hit a shoulder, up and it'd hit the spine, down and it's hit the bottom of the heart, and right and it'd hit both lungs. Well .... I was WRONG! I held on the tip of the limb, steadied by a hasty sling, and squeezed one off. There was no reaction from the deer at all, except it cocked its ears badk and then forward, trying to locate the source of all that noise. It never moved even a fraction of an inch. It was about a 15" spread 8-pt. buck, and this surprised me. Being in plain sight of the buck, I was now faced with a problem. Work the bolt and he'd be gone before I could get another rd. chambered and get on him again. So I reasoned that the only thing I COULD try was to just do it so S-L-O-W-L-Y that it'd be quiet enough and slow enough to not draw his attention. A couple of times, it did look straight at me, and I just froze like I was part of the tree until he heard something else and turned his attention in that direction. Then I resumed the painfully slow process of extracting the spent rd. As i got the bolt open nearly the length of the spent case, I eased the middle finger of my left hand to catch the case and prevent the ejector from making it hit and ring as it hit the front action ring. That, thankfully, worked that time, and I eased the bolt back, keeping the left hand middle finger on it so it didn't make a "ding" sound on ejection, and reached in with left forefinger and thumb and picked it off the extractor, placed the empty in my breast coat pocket so it didn't fall and make a noise, and eased the bolt forward just as slowly as I'd pulled it back, and finally chambered another round. By that time, the buck has stepped forward @ 1 1/2 ft., and his chest was now a clean shot. That round put him down where he stood.

Have you ever gone "Whew!" in the woods, and felt like a huge weight had been lifted off of you? That's how I felt at that moment!

So IMO, it's more important that we think rationally in the woods, than that we try to buy some "Brush Buster" and shoot willy-nilly through brush at deer. They're magnificent creatures, and deserve better than that, and hunting is NOT an "ego trip." It's a very pleasant pursuit, and it's about "becoming one with the woods," and hoping for merited success, or an occasional episode of plain ol' good luck. Trying to dominate Nature ain't much of a path to success. We get a lot further a lot faster if we adapt ourselves to the woods, rather than depending on "brush busing" guns and ammo. That's been my own personal experience, at least. A "plains and beanfield rifle" like my old '06 in this instance isn't really a "brush gun" at all. However, it CAN be used to great effect, IF we accept the simple fact that pretty much ALL "deer calibers" are NOT good "brush buckers," INCLUDING those with a reputation as being "brush busters." Someone shooting through brush and hitting a deer is really luck, and does NOT a "brush bucker" make! Most shots through brush will NOT hit the deer, even when well placed, and those that do, will likely be wounding shots, and not good, sportsmanlike quick killing shots.

Deer deserve more respect than we sometimes give them. Accept when they win with a little grace, and learn from the experience so the NEXT time, you can kill it cleanly. That's just plain ol' good hunting ethics. I know we don't see that everywhere and in all instances in the woods, but it's still vital to a truly good outdoor experience. Let the other "slob hunters" do what they habitually tend to do. Just watch out that they don't shoot you. They generally aren't that observant, so you should be able to see them first. And be careful out there!

[JWT]

This is relatively open where I'm hunting.

181858

[Walkingwolf]

not going to nitpick the errors but it does show that the speedy pointed bullet did deflect and the much larger /heavy bullets punched thru
so info is usable
all it takes is one branch to throw off a shot with the wiz bang super duper magnums

This is what I came away with after watching the video, it is not a proponent of reckless hunting. It only takes a slight breeze to move a branch into the line when hunting in the woods. He used the heavy brush to make sure he encountered limbs in the flight path. Not something he endorsed.

[OS OK]

Nice write up Dennis.

One of the best ways I know of, to be excluded from the deer camp in following seasons was to make wild running shots or shoot into thickets where at best...and if you hit at all, then involved the entire camp tracking your wounded animal. The old timers considered this season a time of harvest not Jack and Coke and big bonfires at night or any thing else. Deer camp was quiet and so was all the individual blinds...if a shot rang through the woods there would be venison for dinner.
If you were a goof...well, you never returned.

[Walkingwolf]

In the 60's in Texas we hunted right of ways that the Ranchers intentionally cut into their hill country ranches with elevated stands at intersections...that was great and my scoped 7mm Rem-mag was my choice.
When we would stalk into the woods, thick brushy woods, then find a clearing and sit there we carried a lever gun, didn't prefer a scope in the thicket. We didn't go thrashing around climbing through the bush and thicket so length of rifle was not of concern...we didn't relate 'brush gun' with thick woods in that respect as you would relate the length of a fishing rod to brush and trees.
Shots were clear and unmistakable but you never had any control over the bare twigs that lay in between.
For that reason we referred to them, as our elders did also as a brush gun...called that for the caliber and profile choice and because it had a better chance of defeating that twig you didn't see.

40 years later I was going to zero a .308W @ 200 yards after I had laddered and refined that load @ 100 yards.
I expected to see the first shot @ 200 to be about 4.5" low...instead I thought I saw several flies sitting on the target, small specks that looked like flies. I fired the second round after I didn't see the first and I got the hole exactly where I thought, low (didn't notice whether the flies took off or not). I go to fire a third and fourth before deciding on a scope adjustment and no hole...more flies on the target...WTH?

I walked to the target and discovered the flies were fragmentation of the rounds...10 yards in front of the backstop there was a skinny bare bush that I could not see in the 24X scope. Then it all came into perspective...
I was using 168 grain match HPBT's at 2650 FPS through a 1:12" stock barrel...nothing exotic but they were fast enough that they fragmented.
These twigs were about the size of a kitchen match some were almost twice the size...I went to break them off and they were tough little buggers, I had to get the pocket knife out and cut them. Don't know what the bush was named but it was tough enough to frag my rounds.

This is all Iraqveteran8888 was trying to point out, nothing more. It wasn't a science lab experiment...I had no idea this simple principal would rile the experts so...very amusing!

It's the internet, you should have known. LOL

I sometimes catch myself being a internet Richard, it is easy, but I try to resist. Some don't have much resistance.

[M-Tecs]

This is what I came away with after watching the video, it is not a proponent of reckless hunting. It only takes a slight breeze to move a branch into the line when hunting in the woods. He used the heavy brush to make sure he encountered limbs in the flight path. Not something he endorsed.

You and I must have watched a different video. At around the 9 minute mark he clearly states with a rifle like this (35 Rem) if you can see it you can kill it. That and his later statements seems like an endorsement for reckless hunting.

[Digital Dan]

Dunno it's relevant but I have a suggestion for a "brush rifle" except it isn't a rifle in the classic sense. Straight up smoothbore it is and air conditioned to boot. Dunno if they still make beehive rounds for these things, but....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/rg117cc-vi_zps27c82844.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/rg117cc-vi_zps27c82844.jpg.html)

[white eagle]

never hunted brush
whats the best cal for killing them

[M-Tecs]

never hunted brush
whats the best cal for killing them

A Brush Hog really mows them down. http://brushhogmowers.com/

[Duckiller]

Years ago Pete Brown,Warren Page or Jack O'Conner did a test of shooting various calibers through brush. EVERYTHING that hit twigs was deflected. If an animal was close to the brush you might get a lethal hit. If the brush was half way between you and the target you would probably never know where the bullet went. Shot gun slugs and big heavy bullets all deflected like light fast pointy bullets. First deer I ever shot was with a 6.5x55 swede mt carbine with a Williams peep sight, 140 gr Norma soft point. Deer stopped behind a small shrub and I shot it. Broke both front legs. Second or third shot dropped it. Can't remember, it was a long time ago. Anyway a brush gun is a caliber with a reasonablely flat trajectory and a scope that lets you see brush and twigs and find hole to shoot through. The common sense that big heavy bullets go through brush is the same common sense that says the world is flat.

[OnHoPr]

It was not conclusive, even though some of his actual speech seem to wander to it, but he mention that it wasn't conclusive a number of times. It was a good vid. He has a Youtube channel and fills it with all kinds of info, issues, and general gun talk which is fairly decent. This vid is just at the hunting season when all are around the table or camp fire shootin the $h]t about all things deer hunting related. What was good is that he was using real brush. Most of real brush is on the green side and not kiln dried dowel rods placed in a particular fashion under a lab type setting. Any of these type of test are really un-conclusive as well. Just like water jugs and ballistic gel are really not conclusive to hitting a little bit of hair, maybe a green rib, then a couple of lungs which is mostly air (it is a pneumatic system if you haven't realized yet), then a green rib and some hair. The water and ballistic gel are used basically to catch pretty looking mushrooms of projectiles for the manufacturer or hunter mind.

To get back to the brush gun, depending on what you have is a brush gun. I knew a guy that used a 22-250 and would pick the holes to shoot through and then there is the buckshot hunter as well as the big and heavy like the 444 Marlin. It probably depends on if you are hunting your own 100 acres in your raised blind or traversing through multiple terrain and woods/bush types with intermittent clearings like on PL.

Seems strange or maybe hypocritical that probably 80% of the shooters on this site use irons in some type of fashion and a pretty good hunk of the percentage of deer taken are in the low light situation of morning and evening. BRUSH DISAPPEARS using irons and in lower light situations at brushy terrain scenarios no matter how good you think your eyes are. So, hitting brush is always the possibility. I have hit brush that I haven't seen using a scope. My all around weapon of choice was the 760 06 as my hunting scenarios consisted of PL and all of its terrain changes from so thick you can't see you dock to a 5 year old whole section clearcut.

Now, when it comes to the truly best brush gun I suppose that would depend upon the user and his/her decisions on making the shot. One might find a hole, where the other may try to carefully plow through the stuff. There are most likely successful and unsuccessful shooters in both categories. Lately since I have been hunting more brush using the shotgun and mzzldr it has brought questions on which would be the better projectile for each weapon. I cast up a few Lee 44 310s and WD them hard to test going through a lot of the elderberry thickets where I have been hunting lately. I have shot the 44 mag a bit and seen what those bullets do when they hit a sand berm, instant half a dollar shape which doesn't seem like it would be productive after hitting brush. But, in the vid you saw where the 444 was being used and factory loadings are usually with pistol bullets. Those bullets seem to soft or fragile at 444 speeds. I think the stouter the bullet up to the velocity of the firearm would be the better choice in that narrow spectrum of the brush shootin concepts debates.

The topic is a century old deer season camp fire discussion. All the brush I hit on the way to a deer still hit the deer and good. I would also shoot through the brush, or at least certain brushes, to shoot a deer. But, there is that in field decision like I probably wouldn't shoot through three clumps of elderberry, but would definitely shoot through a couple of flimsy white pine bows when the deer is just 10 on the other side of them. It all depends on what type of tag or tags that you have as well. If I have horn and bald tags with no point restrictions then all I need to see is a deeper chest and get the wrapping paper out.

[rickt300]

A "brush" gun is one that handles easily, you shoot well and will penetrate the animal hunted from any angle and leave a good blood trail. I never shoot through any intervening brush on purpose. Deer and hogs often don't give much time before they take off and sometimes the angle of the shot forces you to rely on penetration to get the job done. The brush hunting I do generally makes it impossible to see 75 yards and many of the shots I do get are at 30-50 yards.

[Digital Dan]

'Tis a debate for the millennia and it won't be settled here I think. M-Tecs and others have offered wisdom tempered by experience and testing that illustrate random variability in a bullet's flight. It mirrors much of what has been done many times and is perfectly reasonable. There is no sure thing when it comes to the outcome of a shot taken thru brush in that regard. Never will be with rifles or handguns.

I dunno what a brush gun is actually. I hunt local swamps and have history hunting river/creek bottoms in Georgia, Mississippi and Florida. I still hunt. Locally a long shot is measured more accurately in feet rather than yards, but 20-25 yards is fairly common. The following image is representative.

http://i.imgur.com/vTJEfmG.jpg

I could argue as others have that short, light, handy is the hallmark of a "brush gun", but won't do so. One of my favorite stalking rifles is a flintlock with a 42" barrel. It does not impede my movement in any regard.

If inclined to take a stand on what gun/load is most versatile in heavy cover I would probably fall back on a 20 ga Ithaca 37 that has been in the family for over 50 years loaded with #3 buckshot. Near 80 hogs, a 'yote and several deer have fallen to that combo with never a second shot required nor any tracking. It does right well on quail with #8 shot...

[MyFlatline]

Looks like you hunt where I do..

201265

[oldblinddog]

not going to nitpick the errors but it does show that the speedy pointed bullet did deflect and the much larger /heavy bullets punched thru
so info is usable
all it takes is one branch to throw off a shot with the wiz bang super duper magnums

I have seen the exact opposite results printed in an article by (I think, might be wrong) Jack O'Conner in Outdoor Life. Would have been 1969 or 70, so, memory could be faulty.

[oldblinddog]

Years ago Pete Brown,Warren Page or Jack O'Conner did a test of shooting various calibers through brush. EVERYTHING that hit twigs was deflected. If an animal was close to the brush you might get a lethal hit. If the brush was half way between you and the target you would probably never know where the bullet went. Shot gun slugs and big heavy bullets all deflected like light fast pointy bullets. First deer I ever shot was with a 6.5x55 swede mt carbine with a Williams peep sight, 140 gr Norma soft point. Deer stopped behind a small shrub and I shot it. Broke both front legs. Second or third shot dropped it. Can't remember, it was a long time ago. Anyway a brush gun is a caliber with a reasonablely flat trajectory and a scope that lets you see brush and twigs and find hole to shoot through. The common sense that big heavy bullets go through brush is the same common sense that says the world is flat.

Yes, that's the one, and the only correct answer to this question. Whether the bullet gets through has to do with the proximity of the brush to the deer. I remember it as the spitzer's were more likely to get through than the fat flatnose, but that neither were really any good.

[Digital Dan]

Looks like you hunt where I do..

201265

If per chance you refer to Gulf Hammock, that would be very near where the pic was taken. Hunt the Hammock now and then as well.

[Thundarstick]

Reminds me of a squirrel hunt I experienced. I shoot a subsonic 22lr suppressed from a long barreled bolt action, so it's about as silent as you can get! One day I spotted a fat fox squirrel cutting a hickory nut just hanging out at about 65 yards away my first thought is "this one's in the bag"! The scope was on 4x, I took a good rested aim, pift, the squirrel just went on cutting, I took better aim, repeat first shot, again, the same X3! I cranked up to 9x and then I saw I was shooting through a cluster of tiny twigs! I dropped to a knee to shoot under the twigs and took him home with the fourth round! I would have never believed that I could have 3 deflections in a row cause a miss each time, but those tiny twigs did just that! Funny thing is I didn't see twigs until I cranked up the magnification!

[Gray Fox]

About 20 years ago I was hunting deer at Ft. Benning, GA (I'm retired Army) with a Browning 1885 .45-70 with a 405 RNFP Boolit at about 1,500 fps. I was perched on top of a rusted out armored personnel carrier that had been shot up by troops learning to use 106mm recoiless rifles many years in the past. I had a very nice for the area 8 point pass within 25 yards and offer the perfect heart-lung shot, which I carefully took. At the shot the deer did the whitetail crouch and sprung up almost vertically and took off, never to be seen again. I searched the area and found no sign of a hit whatsoever. I even looked down the bore to make sure the boolit had exited. Then, looking towards my perch from where he had been standing I saw about a 3/4" horizontal scrub oak branch with a very .45 caliber looking notch in the top side. The boolit had hit it less than 8 feet from the deer and 6 feet up and had diverted to parts unknown. I would not have believed it if I hadn't seen it myself. GF

[oldblinddog]

I did almost the exact same thing on a doe shooting a .348 Winchester with a 250 grain Barnes original. At the shot she took off, much to my amazement. Then, I saw something white just hanging in space. It was the hole through an inch thick sapling that I hadn't seen through the Lyman peep in the waning light of evening. There was no blood and no hit.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Short(relative) barrel, open sights in a larger caliber. The larger caliber is not to break through the brush to hit the target. It's to put more energy on target and anchor the animal. Last thing I want is for it to take off and have to track it through thick brush.

+1. I don't want to have to go on a tracking job . just want a dead animal where it was standing just prior to the rifle firing. Also, unless I'm having too much rain problems. I want a low powered variable on that rifle.

[Blue2]

Many good observations made here. I have been fortunate to have lived long enough and hunted almost always in the woods where it is often "brushy". My first and favorite rifle for years was a 270 Winchester. I made both amazing shots and had some puzzling losses .Most of us here understand ballistic coeffecient and standard deviation and it's effect on making good groups on paper. I believe that sectional density is the item to look for in a brush cutting bullet.that is the measure of a bullets ability to penetrate. A straighter bullet without much ogive as previously pointed out presents less angle on its tip to cause it to deviate when it catches against the side of a twig.
A neighbor of mine fired at a large deer from a tree seat in a very thick environment and it was getting into a dim light situation. He had a "shooting lane " cut out but he misjudged where it was. He was using a 12 gauge slug at about 25 yards. He missed because he was looking over the top of the barrel and not using the sights. The shot went low. What impressed me was that the slug passed straight through and then cut partial diameters out of six or more alders 1.5-2" in diameter in a straight line all the way to the impact point. Heavy and slow with a straight sided projectile will go through brush better than a high speed bullet if it touches anything on its way to the target .

[GhostHawk]

Totally agree blue, big, slow and heavy wins this race every time.

Small and fast only works if it never touches anything.

Not much beats shotguns and slugs in this department in my opinion.
I have seen several deer harvested that in the space of one jump went from being visible to being invisible. And the slugs went through that stuff and did their job.

[Tenbender]

For me a brush gun is something light and short that doesn't get hung up while clawing my way through the thick stuff and is quick on target... caliber has little merit to me for this task as the idea of a "brush gun" is not a bullet that will shoot through brush/twigs/limbs to kill the critter on the other side.

Correct !

[Blackwater]

I think one of the reasons this argument will never be settled, is the simple variability of the results. All I've been able to determine from what I've seen, is that each shot is a one-time event, and it all depends on exactly how the bullet hits the limb or blade of grass or whatever it is between it and the intended target. I once shot at a deer only 6 FEET behind a pine bough. Its chest was directely behind the soft white tip with a lot of pine needles sticking out. I shot at the center of the chest, which was marked by that white pine tip, that I knew to be very soft, and when I shot, the deer froze, and began looking around, antlers swaying with its head. I could not believe I'd missed. Was using an '06 with 165 gr. Speer PSP bullet. 6' is probably further than the deer actually was behind that limb, and I just KNEW I'd hit that deer. But I didn't! Now, what to do? There I was with a VERY alert deer in front of me at @ 65 yds., and swiveling its head around looking for me. Not having any confidence it'd work, I just very, Very, VERY slowly moved my hand to the bolt, and raised it, then slid it back just as slowly as I'd moved it to the bolt knob. When I knew it was far enough that it was about to "ping" the case mouth against the front receiver ring, I eased my left hand back on the forearm and stuck the tip of my pointer finger on that hand in far enough to keep the case from pinging the receiver and surely scaring the buck off. Then, I pinched it and eased it out without making any alarming sounds. By now, I was sweating, because I saw a very thin chance that I might actually get a 2nd. shot! With the spent case in my left hand, cradled, I moved that hand back to the forearm, and eased the bolt closed on a new ctg. This was a real piece of work, and one of my probable "masterpieces" of stealth and judgment in the woods (there've been plenty of the "other kind!"). Amazed I'd actually have yet another chance, I finally brought the gun to cheek, again so slowly you'd fall asleep watching what I did, while that buck stayed there, still waiting and watching, sure he'd identify what had made that sudden, loud sound. And he was alert aplenty! Continuing to swivel its head, sniff the air, etc. He even stomped his hooves a time or two in an effort to "out" the offending entity. It had stepped forward a couple of small steps, and now, its chest was showing with NO intervening brush. It dropped at my 2nd shot, and after a few quivers, laid still. I couldn't believe I'd actually gotten this deer! I guess most would have broken their arms patting themselves on the back, but I could only sit there in amazement!

Another case I remember now, a friend was hunting with a Ruger .44 mag. auto down deep in the woods near the river in some thick woods. They'd found a really good and very well used deer trail, and his stand sat maybe 50 or so yards from it - far enough they could move a little without being seen very readily. Sure enough, a nice young buck came by, and he raised his rifle, with a scope mounted on top, and aimed, and fired. The deer fell dead as a wedge! But on pulling the rifle down, he noticed a nearly 1" dia. hanging branch with a bright, whitish hole in it, directly in his line of fire! He'd put his bullet through that limb, and it had gone at least 40 yds. and STILL got that deer!

This is the kind of seemingly mutually exclusive events that make discussing this subject so challenging. All sorts of things happen when a bullet hits ANY sort of brush. Even a blade of grass can open up some varmint style, very thin jacketed bullets. I've seen it happen. And yet, occasionally, someone can shoot through an amazing amount of brush and the bullet will STILL hit his quarry! But the odds are VERY much against that happening. But I guess enough folks get excited and shoot no matter whether it's a good shot or not, and occasionally, connect. I've long wondered if some of the poorer shots don't miss, and yet, have the brush deflect the bullet so it makes contact with the deer? None of us can claim to have "seen it all" with respect to "brush busting bullets," but I for one have surely seen enough to know that shooting through brush is a VERY low percentage shot, and I long ago concluded that it's better to pass up the shot and come back again, than to try to press a bad shot and likely wound the deer, if it's hit at all.

If we got a deer every time we went out, would we really call that "hunting?" Sometimes, I think that it's good that we let the deer win, and do so gracefully and with honor. It makes our successes so much sweeter and more fulfilling when we show a little character in the woods, I think. But then, I hunt mostly from stands, and do my real "hunting" when I pick the spot and construct the stand. The rest is just the waiting part. Folks who stalk their deer typically have to take a running shot, or go empty handed. For that, I'd pick a big, flat pointed, slow moving bullet, such as my friend with the .44 had in his Ruger carbine. Odds are, they'll stay at least significantly straighter if the deer's not all that far behind the brush. Pointy high speed bullets do NOT generally fare very well. Since woods hunting is usually at comparatively closer ranges, that lets us listen to footsteps approaching, which allows us to decide where the best place is to take our shot. With a little patience, that can make the difference between eating venison, and fish from the supermarket.

It'll always be the hunter who determines whether a "brush shot" is a good one, or a risky stab at trying to get some venison. And the saddest part is, most of those who rush their shots, and miss our wound, could probably have held their shot until it hit an opening, and killed it cleanly. When I first started hunting, I decided the best way to deal with the excitement of first seeing a deer, was to sit stock dead still, and get over the excitement before I move or twitch a muscle. That's worked well for me. If I ever stop getting a thrill when I hear footsteps coming my way, I'll quit hunting. I doubt that'll ever happen, though.

In every human endeavor, from the simplest to the most complex and critical, we have to THINK if we're to get good results. If we don't think, and do it as a habit, we err easily and lots more often. It's that way in hunting, too. We just have to think more, and observe more closely, and evaluate more logically. Figuring you "HAVE" to take a "brush shot" is usually just wishful thinking and a result of lack of patience and judgment. In the woods, patience wins many, many battles that would otherwise be lost. That's all I've been able to make of it, at least. You guys who typically stalk have to be REALLY sneaky! Here, it's like we're walking on rice crispies! And we don't sneak up on many deer that way. I've done some when I had mostly pine needle beds to walk on, and seen a few deer that way, but they were mostly approaching bedding areas. If we didn't hunt from elevated stands here, we'd probably see very few deer, I'm afraid. But I've tried it anyway, just to test myself and see. It all depends on whether the ground/leaves are wet enough to make walking fairly silent or not. Sure is fun, and here, one decidedly fine challenge! I love doing it. Every step is a new excitement and challenge! Now that I'm older, I doubt I COULD do any effective stalking, though. I sure loved trying when I was younger, though! Just try really, really hard not to think you "HAVE" to shoot through brush, and you'll likely eat more venison, and leave a lot fewer carcasses out in the woods to die a very sad death.

[M-Tecs]

I think one of the reasons this argument will never be settled, is the simple variability of the results.

The results really are not that variable. It's easily tested with a proper setup. With a proper test it needs to be 100% repeatable. Randomly shooting into brush with a target behind it is not repeatable and tells you very little.

[Viper225]

I do not even consider Brush Penetration in my definition of a Brush Gun.
Easy to carry.
Fast handling.
Good Close Range Sights.
Plenty of Power for <100 yard shots.
Needs to make a good size hole in both sides for a easy to follow blood trail.

In rifles a Lever, Pump, or Bolt Action will all work just fine.
Something you are very comfortable to use.

Just My 2 Cents.

Bob

[white eagle]

brush gun = any gun I have in my hands when hunting in the brush

[Ramjet-SS]

Yup I remember Wooters doing this with dowels. It was a fun interesting video.

Once upon a time folks could not afford or were guns made to accomedate optics. In those days with open sights you may not see all the brush that may be between you and the deer because they can be very small twigs etc. So the "brush gun" was the answer to owe misses blamed on bullets thought to be deflected by that brush. I think many folks understand firing through brush that thick is not a safe practice. But for that errant branch or twig that may deflect lighter high velocity projectiles the big bore WFN bullets will stay on course. I think the test has validity I think about those arrows over the years that deflected by a limb that was not apperant to my eye makes me laugh. Good video interesting stuff. Of course I am big bore fan anyways so this is not going to cost me any anniversary money but it does vindicate my already many gun expenditures. :)

[tdoyka]

I do not even consider Brush Penetration in my definition of a Brush Gun.
Easy to carry.
Fast handling.
Good Close Range Sights.
Plenty of Power for <100 yard shots.
Needs to make a good size hole in both sides for a easy to follow blood trail.

In rifles a Lever, Pump, or Bolt Action will all work just fine.
Something you are very comfortable to use.

Just My 2 Cents.

Bob

yep, i'll agree with that

[MyFlatline]

If per chance you refer to Gulf Hammock, that would be very near where the pic was taken. Hunt the Hammock now and then as well.

Yes Sir, that is Gulf Hammock, we have a small little place there that I built shooting houses on.201383201384

[DonMountain]

I think everyone else is mistaken on this issue, completely. So I tested all of my rifles just to see what worked and what didn't work in heavy brush. And I discovered that my Garand with all of those black tipped bullets on machine gun belts I bought 40 years ago did a pretty good job of hitting the target set behind trees of up to 8" in diameter. But it was nothing compared to the 50 BMG loaded hot with those armor piercing bullets. It went in a straight line through trees up to 16" in diameter and still hit the target. In fact that one went through that 1/2" steel plate I was using for the target. If you are brush hunting you don't want to use soft cast lead at a soft Brinell of only 30. You need to step up to those hard fully jacketed solids like they use on elephant in Africa!

[Digital Dan]

Don, that AP stuff is marginal at best. Some years back I was doing recon on a jungle trail network when a pig bolted in a vain attempt to escape. My high cover put a 2.75" FFAR w/17# HE quick fuse on him. Totally effective despite the cover. Wasn't much left for the mess kit.

[Digital Dan]

Flatline, I hope you have a recliner in the treehouse. If so make sure it doesn't squeak.

[DonMountain]

Don, that AP stuff is marginal at best. Some years back I was doing recon on a jungle trail network when a pig bolted in a vain attempt to escape. My high cover put a 2.75" FFAR w/17# HE quick fuse on him. Totally effective despite the cover. Wasn't much left for the mess kit.

Well, I knew someone would disagree with me anyway. Thanks Digital Dan. I was just reporting on effective ammo to hit a target in brush. Of course I am not going to carry that 50 BMG into the woods to shoot deer in brush, it weighs more than 30 pounds and is kind of hard to carry up into the deer stand since I am getting more elderly. So I take that 6 pound short-barreled Winchester 94 in 32-40 (John Wayne Commerative) to kill deer with. Much more handy and last year shot 3 deer with it in thick brush. All one-shot kills even after one of the cast, 170 grain, gas checked flat tipped projectiles over 26.5 grains of IMR-3031 cut right through a tree branch right in front of me. But it still hit the deer about 40 yards away.

[centershot]

Totally agree blue, big, slow and heavy wins this race every time.

Small and fast only works if it never touches anything.

Not much beats shotguns and slugs in this department in my opinion.
I have seen several deer harvested that in the space of one jump went from being visible to being invisible. And the slugs went through that stuff and did their job.

What GostHawk said! Hard to beat a shotgun for this! For most of my life (63yrs) I have lived ad hunted in a "shotgun-only" area. Only for the last 9 years have rifles been legal here (western NY). Average shot here is 25-30 yds. I've come to believe that a shotgun loaded with slugs is as quick handling and deer-deadly as anyone would need in this area.

[Blackwater]

On another note, I have a friend who's shot more deer than most hunters have SEEN! He once told me that he thought that the .243 was a very good "brush gun" because with its flat trajectory, one can shoot THROUGH brush, into the little "holes" in it, and avoid the brush entirely, IF one can place his shots precisely. And he's proven that theory on quite a few occasions, too.

It'll never be the gun or knife or other weapon. The REAL weapon is the person holding whatever it is that REALLY makes things work .... or not.

[OS OK]

You fellas have twisted this thread all over the planet....geeez! We have some real comedians on this forum!

It's not about intentionally shooting through trees, holes in the brush or twigs...it's about having a chance of hitting the game when encountering an obstacle by accident...the invisible twig.

Hell, let's just hunt with hand grenades...that oughta gettem!

[dragon813gt]

Hell, let's just hunt with hand grenades...that oughta gettem!

Fishing at night w/ glow sticks and dynamite is more fun than hunting w/ hand grenades. Of course I have no experience w/ either [emoji6]

[OS OK]

HaaaH! I think that little yellow dot winked at me....your busted! . . . :bigsmyl2:

[Smoke4320]

I have always preferred claymores .. sit in the house, sipping my coffee, just waiting for the bang :) :)

[Blackwater]

indeed, OS OK, et all! But with all the young and still budding folks on the site, it's always good to point out things the OP might not have asked for, but are inherent in dealing with the matter at hand. So .... guilty as charged, and all I can do is plea for mercy! Hope you guys are in a good mood! :mrgreen:

[RP]

I just want to know why all the bush hunting I hunt meat.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

me too, but it was much more popular in the 70's than it is nowadays, according to the photos in the magazines I have read, lol

[MOA]

I have always preferred claymores .. sit in the house, sipping my coffee, just waiting for the bang :) :)


Yes. claymores are good, but I prefer to use my H&K 36mm flare gun......It kills and cooks them at the same time, just be sure you have a fork and knife with you when they hit the ground.:bigsmyl2:

[Oklahoma Rebel]

ahhh, very efficient!

[MOA]

Yes. claymores are good, but I prefer to use my H&K 36mm flare gun......It kills and cooks them at the same time, just be sure you have a fork and knife with you when they hit the ground.:bigsmyl2:


No, no, no. In reality folks, if I am going hunting where the area has deep and dense woods I usually carry two weapons, my handy long arm, but my brush gun is this puppy with 300 grain XTP's. All six of them. You had better be real quick for the first hundred yards.

https://s19.postimg.org/u6w3ujxqb/smith_44_mag_classic.png (https://postimages.org/)

[opos]

This was a little "brush gun" bubba'd out of a Mosin rifle...the scope was added later but the initial set up was straight open sights...little bruiser kicked like a mule but was really accurate at under a hundred hards..the perfect brush or truck gun...nothing fancy to worry about...just all work clothes...201977

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I really like how you did your mosin, if I could start over I would do something like that, I have an ati black plastic stock on mine, its more comfortable, but ugly! and I have looked I vain for a sight mounted scout scope mount like that, where did you get yours, and how much? thanks!