BHN For Hunting At Speeds Over 2200 fps

[Avenger442]

Does anyone know what BHN is too hard to expand on game animal, mostly white tail deer, at 2200-2500 fps? Sometimes I have trouble finding information because there are so many places it could be. I've been reading the Hunting section and most of the guys here are pushing bullets under 2000 fps with 50/50 WW/pure lead. Knowing that doesn't help me much for my application. If I have to do a 200 or 300 yard shot 1600-1800 fps out of the barrel will have a lot more drop to it.

Maybe there is a chart somewhere or a calculator giving me X-expansion at X-speed?

Help Please!

[Smoke4320]

what rd are you shooting at the 22-2500 FPS

98/2 probably be fine

it is in my 358 win at 2375 FPS

[white eagle]

BHN For Hunting At Speeds Over 2200 fpsI use Nosler Accubonds

[popper]

With BC ~.3 you get x ft drop ~1800. 3% (isocore) with a tad of copper works in BO @ 2100. I use 4% with Cu in 308W @ 2700. Eliminates the drop problem but accuracy is another story with cast at that range. With low BC boolit you lose >400 fps at range. At 300 I'd be concerned about penetration, not expansion. Kinda means a heavy for cal. boolit. Bama has a thread on how to @ 350 yds. Good luck. Personally I'd just use a jacketed (SST) round, if I could hit the barn @ 300 yds.

[runfiverun]

there is more to it than just hardness.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172689-I-believe-the-cast-lead-rifle-boolit-is-the-most-effective-projectile-in-the-world

[Digital Dan]

Avenger, you might be asking the wrong question. Think for a moment about the ballistics that brought the bison to the edge of extinction. A great many were shot at ranges longer than you speculate about. Fundamental truth of it is that you have asked a very broad question that is bereft of information, such as cartridge, rifle, sight system and so forth.

A few points for you to ponder.

-One can wrap a little paper around pure lead and drive it near 2,000 fps. It will expand with gusto when it hits...anything.
-Lyman #2 so treated and not abused can push 3,000 fps.
-I shoot a .40 caliber ML target rifle with pure lead bullets of 300 grains, MV close enough to 1,100 fps to reference for drops. Put a couple of aces on the target backer at 200 and tell me which one you want punched....done deal. Even with wind and that is the biggest factor, not drops. Drops are straight forward and do not change significantly from shot to shot, regardless of conditions.
-You don't "have" to take a shot at any range. There is a difference between hunting and shooting.

If you run Lyman #2 alloy of equivalent you're good up to the velocity range you're interested...if it fits the bore, is properly lubed and loaded. You can do the same with softer alloy as well, but the question is what options do you have for mixing alloys? A wealth of information is available here and also at the following linked site: http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

There are no absolutes in this game, you need to take some guidance from what has been suggested, but most importantly, do your homework and find out what works....for you.

[Avenger442]

Thanks for the replies.

I know this is a big question with several variables. That is why I asked about a chart or calculator.

OK understand more information needed. Shooting .308 Weatherby Vanguard 2, I believe, 1:10 twist. Bullet C309-160-R actual weight between 163-164 with lube and gas check. Match bullet weights. Barrel slugged, sized .309 .1 over rifling. Coated with three coats of Hi Tek for lube. Powder is H4895 41 grains. Have shot everything from 38 grains to max load. I've been through about five different powders slower and faster and the H4895 41 grains has given tightest consistent groups. Remington cases. CCI standard primer. Loaded with just a little bit more crimp than needed to straighten neck of case. Bullet OAL is measured just off the lands. 15-17 BHN they will do 1 1/2- 1 inches at 100 yards , mostly 1 1/2. If I drop the BHN down to 12-13 groups open up to 2-3 inches at 100 yards. I have had some 1 1/2 at about 13-14 but found later they were inconsistent. I'm estimating the speed at about 2500 fps based on the load data. Don't have a crono. So the question, what is too hard to mushroom at 2500 out of the barrel on a deer? I would rather shoot the 15-17 in case I have a long shot to make. But could work with 13-14 BHN in a hunting situation and 2 inches at 100 yards 4 inches 200 yards... Oh forgot, someone mention optics it's a BSA mill dot tactical scope 6-24 power. This is all as correct as I can remember.

Would like an answer from someone that has done some testing showing expansion and BHN if possible. I don't think the range will let me put out a bunch of wet news paper to shoot at. And recovery at the berm is almost impossible due to digging and public range use. Of course shooting into dirt bank wouldn't answer the question anyway.

Sorry if my replies get a little slow. Having to log back on every time I post.

[Snyd]

BHN For Hunting At Speeds Over 2200 fps

I use Nosler Accubonds

:D Me too!

[Hickok]

BHN For Hunting At Speeds Over 2200 fps

I use Nosler AccubondsThat is the bullet I depend on in my .257 Weatherby.

[Chihuahua Floyd]

Have you shot your current loads at 200 and 300 yards? Also, remember that at those ranges your bullet will be moving considerably slower.
My recommendation is to shoot what you have at range and try to recover the bullets from a medium such as water jugs.

Also, expansion or lack thereof is dependent on what part of the animal you hit. Put a bullet in a major bone and you get different results from just muscle and different results from organs. Thru and thru, who knows what the bullet did. No two bullets react exactly alike on hitting anything. this is why your results may vary from shot to shot.
I think you will be looking at to many variables for a chart. Wheel weights, water quenched, air cooled, thousands of possible alloys, velocity ranges, flat point, hollow point, roundnose, SWC, spire points.
CF

[runfiverun]

your problem won't be mushrooms it will be in keeping the bullet together long enough to penetrate.

[tdoyka]

BHN For Hunting At Speeds Over 2200 fps

I use Nosler Accubonds

i use nosler bt's from my 6.5 creedmoor(120gr) and my 270(130gr) for deer.

[tdoyka]

there is more to it than just hardness.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172689-I-believe-the-cast-lead-rifle-boolit-is-the-most-effective-projectile-in-the-world

read it, learn it, love it.:-D

[Avenger442]

I understand I could also be using jacketed bullets. In fact I have a load worked up, before I started shooting cast, for a Hornady bullet that will do what this one will do. Even have some of the Nosler but no load work up. But my goal when I started casting was to put together a round that would meet or surpass what I could have bought in the store. So far have met or out performed accuracy at 100 yards everything except Federal Gold Match rounds. Unless unless will not mushroom on a deer, I have my hunting round. If the goal was only to have a round that would perform on deer I could use many jacketed bullets. For that matter could go down to Wal Mart and buy an box of Remington or Federal. But I have worked for three years on alloys, casting technique, load testing..... plus all of the read and study and want a bullet I made myself.

By the way, read the thread on effectiveness of lead bullets some time ago. May go back and read it to see if my answer is there. And thanks Popper you and I have shot many of the .308 cast. I know because I read your post.

As to staying together, I believe the bullet alloy to be tough enough without being brittle. It's 87% COWW 10% lino and 3% tin. Fills out the mold nice. Shows no sign of cracking when struck with a 2 lb sledge on an anvil. Have to be careful heat treating as it will go to 20 BHN too easily and I would guess that is too hard. Will be around 13-14 BHN cast and air cooled. 17 BHN cast water dropped and water dropped after coating. Just occurred to me that I could shoot some steel to confirm the toughness vs. brittle.

As to setups like wet news paper and milk jugs, the range I shoot at is a free range the Forest Rangers supervise. Upkeep is done with money coming in from license sales and other fees. Knowing how they reacted to a recent foo-pa on my part, having a target set too low for bullet to hit the berm, I'm not sure I have a place where I can shoot wet news paper or water jugs. They almost wrote me a fine, part of the upkeep I'm sure. Their office is right next to the range. Might be able to catch them not looking since it's hunting season. Bigger fines out in the woods. No disrespect intended toward the Rangers. They are Police and do what they do as a part of the job. We wouldn't have as much game and hunting wouldn't be as safe here if they didn't. Do have another range about a quarter mile from the house but fee is what I consider exorbitant.

But still no answer to the specific question is BHN 15-17 going to mushroom at 2500 fps (if it stays together)? I guess I'm going to have to take it to the woods and see.

[popper]

40gr of 4895 gives me 2700 chronyd from 24" 1:10 barrel & 168gr FN GC (LC brass), PC. I use 4% Sb heat treated to get accuracy BHN mid 20s. IMO what OP are saying is you need a 5" 'cone of fire' @ 300 for a reliable kill shot on deer. Doing that with a weaker alloy, even coated, may be hard to do. At that range, jacketed may not expand much but will kill. You can download GEBC as a range/BC calc.

[Digital Dan]

Pure lead, ~1,500 fps impact velocity for 300 grains of .44 mag paper patched havoc. Broke the deer's right foreleg, 2 ribs in, cut the heart in half, 3 ribs on the way out and the offside foreleg was broken as well. Bullet was under the hide, still weighs 297 grains.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/PaperPatchDeer009_zps3a52d58c.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/PaperPatchDeer009_zps3a52d58c.jpg.html)

Shoots like this most days from the 77/44 with a Millet SP-1 sight:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/627b4656-cd5c-45f5-a12c-e336e1f16dcd_zpsi3ucunrq.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/627b4656-cd5c-45f5-a12c-e336e1f16dcd_zpsi3ucunrq.jpg.html)

[Digital Dan]

But still no answer to the specific question is BHN 15-17 going to mushroom at 2500 fps (if it stays together)?

I think it has been answered in the affirmative. Question is can you have that velocity at impact at 300 yards? Doubting that myself, so you might want to be looking at potential expansion at say, 1500-1800 fps give or take, or perhaps wonder a bit about what the bullet will do over a range of 1500-2500 fps? Different worlds there.

[runfiverun]

if you re-read that thread you'll see why my 358 win works at a velocity commiserate with the 358 used to make a bunch of mincemeat.

[Wolfer]

I tend to hunt the brush thickets so I can't relate exactly to your problem. If the country I hunted was open enough for possible long shots and I wanted to shoot cast then I would use the Bruce B method of soft nose hard body boolits.
While these are slow to make a few will last you a long time since all other shooting can be with hard boolits.

These will act just like a Nosler partition. The soft nose will mushroom on anything at any decent velocity and the hard body will penetrate through next week.

Another option would be to use a Paco Kelly trick. Heat treat your boolits. Then stand them in a pan of water with just the nose sticking out. Play a propane torch over the nose until it changes color. You end up with a body that is water quenched and a nose that is air cooled.

[ammohead]

Don't want to stir up any more than I have to but if expansion is what you are looking for a round nose boolit is not a good way to go. On the other hand if you have a wide meplat expansion really isn't required ala Veral Smith. If you can get a good flat point you can have very good tissue damage at all ranges and velocities.

[Screwbolts]

Don't want to stir up any more than I have to but if expansion is what you are looking for a round nose boolit is not a good way to go. On the other hand if you have a wide meplat expansion really isn't required ala Veral Smith. If you can get a good flat point you can have very good tissue damage at all ranges and velocities.


I completely agree with the above statement. I would also like to add that as velocity goes up, the need or desire for a wide meplat goes down. Do a search of DV, find Verels formula. I find his formula to be right on.

Ken

[44man]

I have a hard time with revolvers so I can't say at rifle speed. I like hard boolits so I have been casting soft nose and they work like Nosler bullets.
I don't go pure for the nose and use 3# or pure and a pound of WW metal.
You might look into it.

[Avenger442]

Popper
Wow! So I may be pushing faster than I think. I really would like one of those Lab Radar setups just a lot of money and I just bought a 45-70. Maybe I can wangle it out of the wife for Christmas.

Understand the 5" at 300 yards, I usually say 6". You have to have it just right and be an excellent shot or lucky to get that. Probably wouldn't even try a 300 yard shot unless I really needed the meat and it was the last day or that twelve point presented itself. I wish I could call myself an excellent shot. There was one of those guys at the range the other day. Trained military sniper, 20 years in federal law enforce....... He was putting five shots in a dot of less than an inch. Off a sand bag. Custom Remington that looked like it cost as much as my monthly paycheck. I didn't measure it but looked like 3/4" groups Had a target that he was shooting at with a man's head inside a window. Looked like the man's head was about the size of the tip of my finger. He hit the guy in the head first shot. Guess I need some classes. I wonder if he teaches.

PM coming on copper enrichment with copper sulfate.

Guys
I've looked at the write up on the hard tail soft nose bullet at some point. I like the idea and would like to try it but was trying to stay away from something new this season.

Wolfer
When in northwest Alabama I hunt in the hills and brush. Your right, I never have had a shot at a deer over 100 yards. Maybe not even one at 100 yards. I used my 44 magnum Winchester there.

Thanks for another item to put on the list of things to try someday. I had never thought of heat treating the tail only. That's the thing I like best about this place so many heads put together to answer and help make it work.

[waksupi]

Don't want to stir up any more than I have to but if expansion is what you are looking for a round nose boolit is not a good way to go. On the other hand if you have a wide meplat expansion really isn't required ala Veral Smith. If you can get a good flat point you can have very good tissue damage at all ranges and velocities.


Exactly.

[Avenger442]

Well after reading through several threads it seems I have answered my original question. So thanks guys for the input. And I'm outa here.

[longbow]

Maybe I missed but I didn't see any comments on soft nose cast boolits in responses. That should solve the issue if the OP is bent on pushing velocity and hunting at long range.

You can make soft nose cast boolits by:

- using 2 part pours: first use a small "ladle" to pour a measured amount of your soft lead alloy in the mould to fill as much of the nose as you want to expand, then finish the pour using your regular alloy. If you use pure lead or lead tin alloy you can water drop or oven heat treat and the nose will stay soft. You may be able to use some antimonial lead in the nose then heat treat too but I certainly don't know the mix to keep the nose soft. Testing would tell you. You will need to run hot lead, hot alloy and hot mould to get this to work well in a .30 cal mould in my experience. Reference: https://www.africahunting.com/threads/hunting-with-cast-bullets.33204/
- You can cast using your alloy then water drop or oven heat treat. Then stand boolits in pan of water and use a propane torch to heat the noses until they change colour. You have to almost melt the boolit but if successful you will have a hard body and ACWW nose. I first saw this in an article by Paco Kelly but cannot find it now, just comments about it.
- A somewhat more complicated method to achieve same: https://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/35
- The Bruce B method (similar to first): http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?11749-Casting-Softnose-Bullets-From-ANY-Conventional-Moulds

Some info on heat treating and obturation:

http://www.lasc.us/heattreat.htm
http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCBAlloyObturation.htm

Longbow

[jhalcott]

I have found soft nose cast bullets to be VERY effective in several calibers. Pointy bullets at lower velocities drop less than a fn of similar weight Speed is not really needed for them to expand.high velocity may cause them to over expand.

[Blammer]

35 whelen, 2500fps, wqww's about 200yds? i recall?

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/2016%20Deer%20and%20hog/KIMG0054_zpshfaihctq.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/2016%20Deer%20and%20hog/KIMG0054_zpshfaihctq.jpg.html)

the story

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?314809-35-Whelen&highlight=35+whelen

I think the water quenched wheel wts with a tad of tin added will serve you well.

[44man]

It is velocity from some guns I don't know. I am mostly a revolver hunter.

[Motor]

From my own experience and experience through other people's endeavors deer hunting I suggest you focus on accuracy at range and forget about expansion. I've never seen a deer lost from lack of expansion when hit in the vitals.

In contrast I've seen many never recovered from lack of penetration. Most of these were front shoulder hits with 50 caliber round balls and a couple where an arrow failed to penetrate the front shoulder.

Get your cast load to shoot accurately at your intended range and place a good shot. That's all you'll need.

Motor

[tdoyka]

From my own experience and experience through other people's endeavors deer hunting I suggest you focus on accuracy at range and forget about expansion. I've never seen a deer lost from lack of expansion when hit in the vitals.

In contrast I've seen many never recovered from lack of penetration. Most of these were front shoulder hits with 50 caliber round balls and a couple where an arrow failed to penetrate the front shoulder.

Get your cast load to shoot accurately at your intended range and place a good shot. That's all you'll need.

Motor

x2
accuracy is king and penetration is queen

[brasshog]

Here's a link for additional information that may help

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

[georgewxxx]

It would be interesting to know how many of the responders on this thread have actually hunted and killed with a cast slug. As far as I'm concerned, that's what this forum is all about. Not touting what jacketed bullet they feel is better with or how hard they think the boolits should be.

Having said that, I can say from a lot of experience killing upwards of 35 deer with everything from .257 Roberts to a 50-70 Springfield using only WW. My standard for a .308 was using a 31141 or 311041 if you will, using only straight wheel weights sized to .308 with 44grains of AA3100 going at 2337FPS. I have never lost a deer using that load in 25 years. All exit holes were in the 2" range. That load will group about 3 to 5 inches depending on rifle I tried it in. At 200yds or more, deer vitals depending on angle, are still in the ball park with that load if you do your part.

With a lot of experience with trying different size sizing dies I find the faster you push your slug, the smaller you want to size your boolit. If your interested in how small a group you can get, that's fine if all you want to do is impress the boys on the boards. If your trying to put meat in the freezer you need, 4 or 5 inches will do the job, so if your groups seem to open up after speeding the boolit up some who cares? How many shots do you normally take while hunting? One, maybe two at the most and if your rifle seems to be leading a little, so what? Clean the darn thing.