Fawn saved

[44man]

Carol seen a fawn stuck in the fence. She got cutters but could not find the fence tool. She got the wire cut by twisting it. Deer was OK and left in good shape.

[fingers284]

I saved three deer this AM...damn I'm getting soft in my crochety old age...had two fawns and their mother about 30 yrds off my back deck and let them walk. The mother appeared to be a first year mom, not a big mature animal so she got a reprieve to finish raising the young-uns.

[Brad Cayton]

Good deal. We had a doe here on our place hung her back leg between the top 2 strands of barbed wire jumping the fence this summer. I didn't see it until the buzzards let me know. I hate the deer tearing down my fence but being hung in a fence till starvation or a coyote gets me would be a hard way to go.

[dverna]

It ticks me off when people shoot fawns or does with fawns. I have two neighbors that do it.

I do not need the meat that badly.

Don Verna

[Omega]

It ticks me off when people shoot fawns or does with fawns. I have two neighbors that do it.

I do not need the meat that badly.

Don VernaI've done it, twice, when I first started hunting whitetail. First one was behind a bush when I first seen it. I tried to pull up when I seen the spots but too late. The second one was walking in a rut, when I got to it I noticed the fading spots. Though done by mistake, I tagged them, and I must say they were the best tasting venison. Now, many moons later I can tell the difference pretty easy and will not take any with spots, young yes, spots no.

[shoot-n-lead]

I saved three deer this AM...damn I'm getting soft in my crochety old age...had two fawns and their mother about 30 yrds off my back deck and let them walk. The mother appeared to be a first year mom, not a big mature animal so she got a reprieve to finish raising the young-uns.

I am the same...just won't shoot those young does with young one's or little deer of any stripe.

[762sultan]

You taught her right 44 man. Tell her she done good. And give her a big hug from me.

[dtknowles]

I believe that hunters and outdoors people love and care for wildlife way more than any greenie city slickers.

Tim

[tdoyka]

good for her, 44man.

for archery, i don't shoot at a doe. i prefer a wide rack buck. for rifle season i'll take whatever buck comes in. i'll shoot a doe only if its an older one without fawns. i must feel old or something.

[Fishman]

Being a biologist and all, I usually let my pragmatism get the better of me. I have been known to shoot a doe and her young not once but many different times. They taste good and the doe permits are there for a reason. Where I live it just might be impossible to shoot enough deer to negatively impact the population.

Those tall fences with two strands of barbed wire at the top sure are deer killing machines. I have rescued a small doe trapped in one and found dozens of dead ones. I don't know why anyone uses that fence. Wouldn't a single barbed wire do just as well? The deer jump and don't clear the fence and when they flip over the two wire trap their hooves and they can't get out. What a waste.

[44man]

I believe that hunters and outdoors people love and care for wildlife way more than any greenie city slickers.

Tim
Exactly right. I have gotten more soft with age and care about animals more.

[Hamish]

It ticks me off when people shoot fawns or does with fawns. I have two neighbors that do it.

I do not need the meat that badly.

Don Verna

I loves me some Bambi meats.

Not too many years ago the state was running a "Take a doe so the herd won't grow" program, with special emphasis on harvesting young does so that you not only eliminated her, but also the fawns produced in the next couple of years.

Ive eaten LOTS of bow and gun tags, but when it comes down to end of season, I'll drop Bambi and her mom in a heartbeat. DNR issues X amount of doe tags per season for a reason. Your "moral" judgement has no place in herd management.

[RP]

I been saving deer all year it seems passed on several cow horns about 6 three and four points and a couple of 6 points. I got tried of passing and needing some meat I took a fair size 8 point. Been waiting on that older doe but none to be seen by me just some small ones. Passed on two bucks today hoping for a doe their harder to find then big bucks this year aggggggg. I did look real hard at a nice 8 point about 18 inch spread but some of the guys have never got a deer worth putting on the wall so I let it walk also. But spread the word to all the guys hunting with me I am meat hunting and if they shoot me a doe or two I keep letting those bucks walk lol.

[TXGunNut]

It's all about management plans. If the plan calls for a drastic reduction in herd size does need to be killed. The lease I hunt has a good population of deer so I will only kill dry/lone does or management bucks. If I kill a doe with a fawn I might as well kill the fawn, it's chances for survival are almost zero. I've hunted areas where habitat would not support the herd for the winter, we were asked to kill any antlerless deer and some of the adult does were quite small. We killed them so that the rest of the herd had a better chance to survive.
But no, I don't want to kill fawns. I'm proud of Carol for rescuing that fawn, I hope it found it's way back to Mama.
My theory is that yearling fawns are growing fast and eating like teenage kids. A yearling may eat as much as two adult deer. An adult deer has a better chance of survival than a yearling.
I'm just glad that the area I hunt does not require killing does with fawns or fawns but that is only because the population is in balance with the habitat.

[richhodg66]

Just how old does a fawn need to be to be able to survive on its own? Obviously needs to be weaned, but realistically, at what point during the year are they grown enough that they have a good chance to make it without their mothers?

[44man]

The young I see are long weaned and very large for the most point but there are still some small ones. The youngest doe will be bred late after the older ones.
I want to know what a "DRY" doe is? Is it because she is alone? I have killed very large and old does with milk and never ever seen one "DRY." Nature does not shut off the spigot even if fawns are grown. The only dry doe is a fawn never bred.
I keep reading it so some have Mark V eyeballs and can tell. Or they tweak a teat before shooting.
If a fawn is eating leaves, twigs and grass, it will survive. Time to wean is very short.
But the doe will always have milk and once bred again, it continues until too old to breed, like eating an old dead milk cow---TERRIBLE!

[Texas by God]

Goat wire is bad on deer. I have rescued a couple that were ok but most need a coup de grace. We will eat them if on our property. Freeing them can get you hurt so be careful folks. A 70 # doe can kick a grown man's butt in an instant. My rule of thumb is if the fawn is 3/4" the size of the doe it's big enough to shoot. I will not let spikes & 3 points walk while waiting for Mr Big. He can wait. The gene pool needs attention. Best, Thomas.

[Hamish]

Just how old does a fawn need to be to be able to survive on its own? Obviously needs to be weaned, but realistically, at what point during the year are they grown enough that they have a good chance to make it without their mothers?

Ideally, after the doe kicks the fawn off the teat. But 44's post raises an important point. The younger does being bred last is far from true in an unbalanced herd, and I don't know of ANY wild populations that are anywhere even near a 1:1 ratio. And the more unbalanced the ratio, the earlier and later does are bred, and the percentage of satellite breeding goes up substantially.

In a "normal" year the nutritional requirements of a within carrying capacity are within the optimal periods, i.e., browse foliage is green at the right time, and equally as important, the fawn was born and weaned within the right period to be mature enough to have put on enough reserves to survive until next green up.

Breed too early and late means seeing big brown young of the year and puny spotted babies at the same time in the late Fall/early Winter. Not good herd mgt.

I know the older fellows who grew up with few or no deer were raised to never kill a doe, but having seen what 1:14-1:15 ratios do to browse with accompanied die offsI have ZERO compunction harvesting any animal I have a DNR issued tag for.

[44man]

True, a fawn with spots in Nov might not make it through the winter, let alone the 42" of snow we had last year.
I have shot many small deer and it is prime. But saving any deer from a fence is not hunting anyway. I still want to help them. It is a harsh death. Starvation is also harsh so to not harvest means you do not think of whether the deer can make it or die very badly.
I will never bash anyone with a small deer. It is just circumstances.
I have found dead fawns in my fence when I needed them for horses, etc. I have been removing fence since we have no more animals. I was sick of replacing wire deer or trees broke. I am FREE of the chore.
The fawn carol saved was inches from the opening the doe went through. I will get more cut out.

[white eagle]

I doubt that you kill a doe with a fawn the fawn will die as a result
by the time the hunting season is in swing the fawn has learned much needed
survival instincts from doe

[richhodg66]

I have and will continue to shoot does. I try to not shoot fawns until the extended January antlerless season and by then, it's hard to tell them from adult does.

We have an early muzzle loader season (starts mid September) and the fawns are real small then but rarely have spots by then and are obviously eating not nursing. At that time there are still two months of mild weather and we never get 42" of snow here, so I really think fawns orphaned even that early will make it for the most part. Might even educate them that the world is a dangerous place and help them survive, I don't know.

I'm with Hamish, if KDWP will issue me a tag for it, somebody has figured out the numbers and decided the ratios need to change or maintain.

[Omega]

Spots are my personal delineation, I don't practice QDM, and my few (one for me) harvests will not affect the population much either way. My first deer is always what ever I can get first, buck or doe, then I will try also get bigger bodied deer since I give them away and my friends pay $70 to have them processed so I try and make it worth it. I just dropped my first one, it was a button buck, should make good eating. This year my friends will be deployed, so going to try for another small one for me and some for a friend I give some venison to.

[TXGunNut]

.....I want to know what a "DRY" doe is? Is it because she is alone? I have killed very large and old does with milk and never ever seen one "DRY." Nature does not shut off the spigot even if fawns are grown.....




I'll call a doe "dry" if I watch her for awhile and no little ones show up. Yearlings in S TX are generally with their moms thru the deer season so I assume they are somewhat dependent on the doe, that's why I avoid shooting them. When I dress these "dry" does the mammary glands don't appear to contain milk but I could be mistaken about that.
I've got some pretty good binocs but they aren't THAT good, lol.

[RP]

I hear people talk about cull bucks and management bucks spikes or crab claws and so on need to be shot. The only culls are deformed deer such as pie deer and deer with parrot jaws that's where the jaws do not line up. Those things are caused but inbreeding. Bucks do not start off with perfect racks or even when they are older may have one side messed up and one side fine. From what the state people tell us is if a deer is hurt such as hit by a car a bad shot hung in a fence and so on. The resources go to healing not to growing horns so if you have a gene problem then the herd. Some will just call them cull bucks and shoot them.
I am not a expert and not saying this is the gospel just kind of makes sense if you think about it. So I been letting them walk if I keep seeing the same deer over and over year after year and they do not get any better racks well the state is full of BS if they get better heck what did I gain. Right now our bucks are running 2 does to a buck which is good balance to keep them chasing.
For the most part I was the guy that was told I needed to shoot those spikes and bucks with horns that were not looking good and done it for years now I am stepping back and rethinking that way of hunting. Since I now have enough land to hunt and other guys doing the same thing so what I pass on others pass on too. Just have to think about the road hunters fast moving mini vans and other things that may take the deer out before next season comes around.

[44man]

I doubt that you kill a doe with a fawn the fawn will die as a result
by the time the hunting season is in swing the fawn has learned much needed
survival instincts from doe
Yes, they survive just fine.

[FergusonTO35]

I watched a doe and fawn for more than an hour while sitting in my stand saturday before last. I must be doing something right as they both laid down and took a nap about 40 yards away from me! If the doe had been by herself she would be hanging in the barn right now.

[kobeinu]

Lurker here....

We have so many deer we shoot whatever is legal for the area and season. Across all seasons, you can get about 20 deer. I don't eat horn so I hunt buttons and does. No doe with a fawn though.

[44man]

I gave up trophy stuff long ago. What do you want, a lamb or old mutton, veal or an old milk cow, a piglet on a spit or a 500# boar?
What is it about a rack that makes a hunter? I see all the huge racks in the rags and know the meat is tossed.

[fingers284]

Actually I agree with you on the old goat or boar but when it comes to deer I have no preference, big and old is just as good as any young animal...if it is prepped properly.

I discovered long ago that that beautiful fat and bone on any deer will affect the quality of meal I get. I live and hunt in a part of Alberta that is renowned for big deer, both horn wise & body size ( I have two over 200 in. WT's on my wall and have loaded many bucks in the 150 and up into a pick-up), One large WT sticks in my mind that we estimated at 450 lbs or so live weight.

I know where the notion comes from that give old animals a bad rapp, I was raised on wild game, some was from bucks and bull moose or elk shot in the midst of the rut that you could hardly stay in the house when it was cooking...but we ate what was put in front of us whether we liked it or not LOL

The secret I stumbled onto years ago was to get rid of every scrap of fat (not most...every bit) in or on the meat and bone the meat out ASAP. I don't even gut an animal anymore, I hunt close to home (I realize some aren't that lucky) and will kill an animal, skin it and bone it out within an hr. of it hitting the ground if possible. Then I lay it on butcher paper outside to cool and stiffen up overnight ( gets very cool at nights here by the time hunting season rolls around, again I realize some don't have this luxury )for slicing the next day then into the freezer. If I had to leave an animal hang even overnight because of a commitment I wouldn't shoot it.

[monge]

Every deer I take I thank the good LORD for his gift ! Wonderful creatures he has created for us to enjoy!

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

Never seen a fawn with spots during hunting season. They get pretty big around here by October/November (I'm guessing 70-90 lbs). I still prefer not to shoot a doe that has a fawn. But I have before.

[44man]

I found a fawn dead, not 3' long. Busted at the butt. I found the tail next to the road out front.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

around here I would est. the buck to doe ratio is at least 1-10 so I will definetly shoot a doe, but not one with fawns in tow, unless they are almost full grown w/ no spots,or stripes. but ive never gotten a buck yet, so im still looking for a trophy, if you see one send him my way!