Cast Bullet Equipment 101 - ?

[JohndeFresno]

Hi, casters.

When I first started reloading, I read, read, read; then, I bought the RCBS Starter Kit. Then, I ended up buying tons more stuff, such as case trimmers and things that nobody mentioned. Then there were home remedies that no one mentioned, such as the humble tooth pick to clean up shell holders, among other things! But I spent hundreds more than expected for reloading equipment (although I have no gripes with the results).

I have lots of books on casting, but before I decide to start rolling my own, I want to see the cost vs. my yearly outlay by simply purchasing cast bullets. Since I don't shoot thousands of rounds a month, I may not want to cast. I certainly don't need something like a 30 gallon melter as I have seen in some posts!

For starters, what the heck is a top punch? Does one really need that?
Must I buy a lee lube press, or can I just slop the bullets around in a pot?

Besides some sort of melting pot and a Lyman 311041 mold for my .30-30's, what else comprises a basic but COMPLETE kit for the moderate shooter? Any help is appreciated. The wheel weight sources are sewed up in my town; they sell to a wholesaler, so I'll be purchasing lead as they sell it at a scrap metal supplier.

Does anybody have a complete list of what I need, so that I can determine if I want to make the cash outlay for this enterprise? The books I have seem to either have incomplete equipment info, or it is presented piece meal. If I have an equipment list, I'll be able to figure out what it is for, one way or another!

[Junior1942]

For 30-30 bullets see this: http://www.castbullet.com/reload/meplat.htm

Go with a Ranch Dog TLC311-165-RF mold and a Lee .309" sizer if you shoot a Winchester and a Lee .311" sizer if you shoot a Marlin.

Get a Lee 10 lb bottom pour pot.

All the above is less than $100.

[JohndeFresno]

For 30-30 bullets see this: http://www.castbullet.com/reload/meplat.htm

Go with a Ranch Dog TLC311-165-RF mold and a Lee .309" sizer if you shoot a Winchester and a Lee .311" sizer if you shoot a Marlin.

Get a Lee 10 lb bottom pour pot.

All the above is less than $100.

Dad-gum it, Junior - you are one of my heroes! Thanks for the answers.

I have pored over your site, including "Reloading and Bullet Casting;" and with the above information I have decided to start casting. In fact, I shoot a Marlin 336, so the sizer information is precisely what I needed.

By the way, I love that trick Lyman #311041 load for my Chinese SKS. Do you think the Ranch Dog will do as well for the 7.62 x 39? Are you going to do a follow-up with that round?

[Junior1942]

The group buy "fat 311041" throws a slightly bigger bullet than Ranch Dog's TLC311-165-RF + the fat mold is a 6 holer. I bought the 2 hole Ranch Dog to use for campfire casting this coming hunting season. My old Lee C309-170-F is a 1 hole. Plus, I figured I'd like the big ol' meplat on the Ranch Dog mold. I was right! But who knows--I may order a 6 hole Ranch Dog when he gets some.

Watch the Ranch Dog site as when the wind stops blowing his chrono over he'll post some pressure tested Marlin loads with the TLC311-165-RF. In the meantime, buy one of the molds before he runs out. . . .

[Bret4207]

Welcome to the asylum John- Minimum list- Mould, melting pot, ladle and heat source. That's it. You can hand lube, apply gas checks with a mallet if your mould uses them and sizing.....well, I shot a LOT of unsized, hand lubed boolits before I got a sizer. I think my first "sizer" was a reamed and belled hunk of copper tube for my 32-20 boolits. Nope, come to think on it I used a Lee hand set for that so the copper was for the 45-70 I had. Worked fine for wiping the hand applied lube off the sides of the boolits which were cast on the stove in my "swinging bachelor pad" using a big old spoon I found at the dump for a ladle and an old enamelware pot I found there too. The boolits worked just as well, if not as easily as those from my higher tech stuff.

[Dale53]

John;
I am going to suggest a Lee 20 lb pot. It is not that much more expensive and you will be happier down the road (if you don't, you'll be buying the bigger one later).

A Lee push through sizing die and a supply of Lee tumble lube will get you started. Ranch Dog's mould and sizing die is an EXCELLENT suggestion (he has done most of the work for you - he'll tell you what works).

I also recommend a turkey fryer with a CAST IRON dutch oven for smelting (you don't want to put dirty lead in your electric pot - tends to plug up the spout). You can get a great turkey fryer for $40.00 or so. My smelting pot holds 80 lbs with a working range of 60 lbs. I can do 120 lbs an hour, easily. After smelting, you'll have clean ingots for your electric pot.

Good luck! It is a fascinating trip into the world of casting. You will be independent of bullet suppliers and will end up with a superior product.

Dale53

[Junior1942]

Good luck! It is a fascinating trip into the world of casting. You will be independent of bullet suppliers and will end up with a superior product.

Dale53I agree 100%. I think I'd shoot that Ranch Dog bullet in my 30-30 even if I got jacketed bullets for free.

[miestro_jerry]

What most everyone has said is really great. With a Lee pot, some WWs, Lee Lube Sizer and some Ranch Dog molds, you will have great bullets to work with.

I have the RDs for 45, 44 and 30 calibers. I am very happy with them.

Jerry

[RP]

Well I think you go and buy your bullets. Because once you start you will have to have this and have to have that and oh that works better than the way iam doing it. And that would be alot faster and that would make a better shooter. Take my word for it you will stop reloading because its not for you or you will have a whole room full of stuff you could not do without.

[donnis]

Good thread John and good replies everyone. This is basically the same question I'm facing. I'd been looking to start reloading for a long time and finally got setup last fall. I'm loving it.

Now I've ended up with about 400 pounds of pure lead muffin tin ingots and now trying to figure out the best way to get started casting.

[MT Gianni]

Great answers. A top punch fits the bullet as it enters the lubrisizer and prevents the tip from deforming. You need them for a Star/Lyman/RCBS sizers. A Lee size kit does not need a top punch.
For me the main savings in casting is for handguns. RIfle shooters save enough to pay for our hobby but pistols pay it off very soon due to the amounts shot. If I just hunted in Montana and only shot Elk, Deer, Antelope and small game, I would shoot jacketed and not worry about the cost. Handguns and targets keep me casting thereby making me a better shot. Gianni

[Bad Water Bill]

An other inexpensive way to start smelting is to use an old Coleman stove and a 3 # coffee can. That is what I started with just a few years ago and still use after many hundred # of WW and Linotype. You can not get much cheaper and the parts are super easy to store.:drinks:

[swallytrip]

Couple of questions what kind of coleman stove do you use, is the heat good and easy to regulate, how long does it take to melt a can, and how long and what kind of fuel does it run on. I like the Idea of this and I'm looking to set up something small like this in my garage due to space issues.:Fire:

[carpetman]

You can use any size Coleman stove--one burner, two burner or 3 burner. I use a two burner and use unleaded gasoline. Even with the price of gasoline--it's cheaper than Coleman fuel. Using unleaded gasoline you will probably go through more stove generators---but buying a generator every now and then is still cheaper than buying Coleman fuel. I use a small cast iron pot and the only time I use the Coleman is the initial melt of wheelweights---once in ingots I use a Lee bottom pour---use to do the casting with the Coleman and the small cast iron pot and a laddle----but I would not go back. One big reason for using the Coleman for initial melt is it can be done outside and you will get a lot of smoke----once the wheel weights are melted down and fluxed--you don't get all the smoke.

[Trez Hensley]

This is a very contagious/addictive venture.

If you are not willing to pull several hundred dollar bills out of you pocket. Run don't walk.

But since you are here now, you are most likely doomed. So here is a bit of what to expect.

You will soon find yourself seeking out tire shops to buy dirty filthy lead weights to melt down and you will think it is fun.

You will most likely buy all you can find and move onto collecting tar covered roof flashing, scrounging around scrap yards and looking down in parking lots (be careful by the way as many people drive fast in these lots). You might even find yourself thinking it's a good idea to collect lead pipe from old houses that used them for Waste pipe.....ooooohhhh yuck you say. You may not believe it now but you will begin to think you have found the mother load.......and it might even have the mother load still inside:groner:

You will collect more lead than you could ever use and sell some so you have room to collect more or resolve yourself to just choose to live with the cracks in your cement floor.

You will start buying molds for guns you will need to buy so you can use your bullets simply because you found the molds at some sale and they were a good deal.

You will submit your body to lifting more than you should (this lead is heavy you know).

You might choose to spend your time searching for bullets along the berms at the range instead of shooting more.

You will notice an increase in the number of hours you spend at the range shooting. You will wonder if it is to get better at shooting or just to use up your bullets so you can do more of this and you won't be able to really answer that question.

You will find yourself mixing up weird concoctions trying to find that wonder lube.
Trying to sneak into the kitchen when your wife isn't home so you can use the good appliances.

There are many other symptoms but I am to tired now as i have been lifting heavy buckets of lead and it is too late to finish the warning label anyway.

I'm not even sure that they have a caster's anonymous group as I believe no one has actually come out of denial yet to address the issue.

If you have not found yourself trapped yet, you can send me a PM and I can take your starter stuff off your hands so you can get out without too much pain. If you think you will like it your trapped now so send me a PM as I have some lead to sell you. I also have an ad in the swapin and selling section. Either way, I need the room.....[smilie=1:

[Ranch Dog]

Oh yeah, it will get bad. You will send your kids out in the middle of a busy highway to retrieve a single, discarded, wheel-weight! Removing WWs from parked cars isn't really stealing, it's recycling... and something your children should learn!

[Morgan Astorbilt]

I've got my trusty WW recycling tool right here. No bullet caster should leave home without one. Get one for each of the kids, and send them out in the parking lot to play:twisted:

Just kidding ;)
Morgan
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/WWPliers1.jpg

[swallytrip]

Well guys thanks for the info I'm here to stay the good news is is I manage a tire and battery center and have enough wheel weights to roll around in the floor like Scrooge Mc Duck just none at home yet and as for kitchen utensils I do the cooking so that don't matter either but would a coleman propane stove work too or would it burn up too much fuel or not get hot enough?:Fire:

[Alchemist]

An other inexpensive way to start smelting is to use an old Coleman stove and a 3 # coffee can. That is what I started with just a few years ago and still use after many hundred # of WW and Linotype. You can not get much cheaper and the parts are super easy to store.:drinks:

I tried a coffee can on a Coleman stove years ago...the solder in the seam melted and I had a steady stream of lead running into the stove. Musta used the wrong brand of coffee can. :groner:

A cast iron dutch oven from a second hand store is what I use now...not as cheap as a coffee can, but not very expensive and could sure save some hassle cleaning up a mess. YMMV

Alchemist

[Sprue]

I've got my trusty WW recycling tool right here. No bullet caster should leave home without one. Get one for each of the kids, and send them out in the parking lot to play:twisted:

Just kidding ;)
Morgan
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/WWPliers1.jpg


Haa !

I friend of mine called last month telling me about a guy that he works withs Dad, owns a junk yard.

...that he gave us permission to go there and pluck WW's for the taking...

Man, times are gonna get bad, even more so on the lower back. Ouch!

Anyway, I told him that I wasn't interested.

[Dale53]

Early in my smelting career I tried a Coleman stove. It put out quite a bit of heat but when I got ambitious and used a larger container, the grill got red hot and collapsed dumping a full pot of molten lead. Not much fun:confused:.

You will be MUCH better served with a STURDY Turkey Fryer with a good cast iron Dutch oven.

Dale53

[JohndeFresno]

Guys,

What informative - and hilarious - posts! I didn't see these until right now. I must have failed to check the appropriate box to alert me to answers to my posting; or something.

Based upon what I learned from another thread submitted here at CastBoolits, I have decided indeed to start casting my own creations in my back yard, since it appears to be doable.

Time is limited, but I figure that I can go without sleep a couple of days each week to pursue the hobby and perfect my technique. Sleep is overrated, anyway. And this is just something I have to do!

Thank you for all of your efforts at educating and entertaining this small town handloader.

[Doby45]

The one suggestion I would give you for now is DON'T smelt anything. Buy yourself a box of ingots from one of our reputable vendors for about $50 and see how you like it prior to the whole smelting setup. These ingots you should be able to put right in your pot and not have to worry with tracking down WWs, getting a smelting burner, cleaning up from clips and such. But get you a mold, a Lee 20lb pot and a Lee push through sizer die. Done and done.

[geargnasher]

That's good advice. You can get some isotope lead ingots from Muddy Creek Sam that already have plenty of tin in them, or buy WW ingots from The Captain (Kathie) and add a little bit of silver solder. Blammer does group buys on larger quantities as does leadandbrass.com and Rotometals.

Personally, I'd pm Sam or Kathie about getting a flat rate box full, once you start casting you'll be looking for more before you know it!

You mention all the little things nobody mentions that you'll need when reloading? Here are a few you'll need for casting off the top of my head: Old metal eating spoon or long-handled teaspoon for stirring the pot and skimming dross, Hickory ball-peen hammer handle for tapping mould hinge pin to free boolits, gloves, aluminum pie plate for sprues, culls and pot drips, old fluffy bath towel for dropping the boolits on, a fan, even if casting outside you need it behind you to blow heat/fumes away, safety glasses (the ones you use for reloading should be fine), a wooden dowel or stick for scraping lead flashing from the face of the mould blocks should it happen to get in there, a bottle or two of Bullplate sprue lube or pure silicone spray lube (Sprayway #945) for the mould alignment points and sprueplate, and old tooth brush for cleaning mould cavities, and a can of brake cleaner for the same purpose.

Gear

[jmsj]

JohndeFresno,
Welcome to the madness!!
I agree w/ Doby45 and gearnasher, not having to hunt lead and smelt lead will save you a bunch of time. Personally I kind of enjoy smelting and even building smelters (I have built 3) and the tools (ladles and ingot molds). But It does take a fair amount of time.
If you are from Fresno, Ca., than a double welcome from me. My family's roots are in the Fresno area and I still have many family members in the area.
Good Luck, jmsj

[cbrick]

The last thing I want to do is discourage anyone from getting started in this addiction. Ok, hobby sounds better but it will take only a few shiny new boolits laying there on the bench in front of you and you'll realize quickly which it is . . . Hobby or addiction. Before you know it you'll be buying molds just because you don't have one of those even though you have no firearm to shoot those boolits. But that's not really a problem, buying new guns is fun. My wife told me "one more bullet mold" and she was leaving . . . Then I got three molds for her, best trade I ever made, I kinda miss her.

Some people are frugal and start casting with the basics and somehow manage to pretty much stay with that. Then there is the majority of us . . . Save money casting? http://www.lasc.us/z7shysterical.gif Yep, of course.

I've shot many silhouette matches at the Fresno range, Scott Roberts is the Match Director, haven't been there in a few years now but it is a great place to spend the weekend shooting, cast of course.

Welcome to the madness JohndeFresno.

Rick

[JohndeFresno]

Many thanks on the additional welcomes, info, and humor. :lol:

I live near Fresno and worked there for many years. I am recently retired.

The Fresno area is located in the infamous Condor Zone, so we must use all-copper bullets to take game; but the anti-gun crowd has not yet stopped us from using lead at the range in the Central San Joaquin Valley. There are rumblings of this being their next move, claiming that lead gets into the ground water. I can't afford to handload a whole lot of Barnes bullets at about a dollar a boolit; so we shall see what we shall see.

My small reloading area holds three different presses - single-stage, turret, and progressive, plus a standalone powder measure - all of which get their share of use. I cannot fit another device on the work bench and have workaround space. But the Lee sizing die seems to be the answer to that dilemma, since I can pop it onto my Rockchucker.

The casting bug started biting me when I read Junior1942's offerings at his "Frugal Outdoorsman" site and here. But as described above, I was concerned about the safety and health issues. I've taken plenty of risks in my earlier life, and I am now a cancer survivor. I've lasted this long, and want to stay around a while longer.

Fitting the bullet to the bore certainly is important. At times, it has indeed been a little difficult to order (from somebody else) the exact size, hardness AND style for a particular caliber.

My latest acquisition, a Ruger New Model Blackhawk, suffered from the endemic tight cylinder throat syndrome on both cylinders (.45 Colt and .45 ACP); so I had them reamed to a consistent .4525" by Mr. G. Castro at www.cylindersmith.com ($64.00 for both which includes shipping is smithing at a bargain!). The turnaround was only a couple of days, by the way; and the job is beautiful.

Here are the three boolits that I am most interested in casting, for starters:
1) Marlin 336 .30-30
.310 or .311 173 gr. Lyman 311041 FP-GC
Running 1700-1800 fps; I uses a few different powders
I really would like to get the Ranch Dog .311 160?/165? grainer,
but I blew it and waited too long to decide that I wanted to cast;
it looks like Ranch Dog is all played out. Well, he made a lot of folks
happy while he was in the game.

2) Taurus 44 Mag SS6
.430 240 gr. SWC-BB Keith style bullet - BHN about 15?
Or - similar flat, wide meplat, sharp shouldered bullet
Currently 1078 fps with 9 gr. Unique,
currently with Magnus #701M moly coated bullet;
but that commercially cast round is actually 18-20 BHN and
works fine - very accurate, no leading.
This is my favorite handgun round of all; but the .45 Colt
will probably steal that honor when I start loading it

3) Ruger New Model Blackhawk .45 Convertible 4 5/8"
.453 265 gr. SWC Keith - BHN possibly 11 (less pressure)
Or - similar wide meplat bullet
To run around 940 fps in this gun with 9 gr. Unique

From your collective comments on this thread, it sounds like the simple Lee sizer die (with Lee Liquid Alox) can handle my two pistol calibers.

But:
1) Will I need to invest in a different sizer than the simple Lee die setup, and use a harder lube material, for the rifle round at 1700-1800 fps? That is, will I have to get something like the Lyman 45 with all of its top punches and size cylinders and so on? Or will the gas check be sufficient to stop barrel leading, given a correct size for the bullet to fit the rifle?

2) Given that Lee molds have smaller ribs made specifically for sopping up the thinner Lee Liquid Alox lube, what is the consensus of Lee Bullet Sizing Die users for pistol rounds? Do you just go ahead and choose a favorite mold, or do you lean more heavily to the Lee molds because of the multiple lube grooves?

For instance, if I used a Lee pistol die for the .45, I'd probably choose the Lee 455-255-RF because its weight and large meplat are what I like in similar commercial rounds. In checking back over a similar posting in another thread, I see that this is what HammerMTB uses.

[Dale53]

JohndeFresco;
The Lee sizers will work fine for whatever you wish to shoot - pistol OR rifle. The process is somewhat slower but will work fine. I MUCH prefer standard lube grooves. I shot BPCR Silhouette for many years. Using black powder bullets with a soft alloy (30/1 lead/tin) I found pan lubing (I used large cake pans from the "second hand" stores and did several hundred at a time) then sizing with the Lee die worked quite well and was not all that slow, after all. In fact, it could be argued that the Lee sizing die represents a SUPERIOR way to lubricate, large, soft lead bullets. Nose first sizing won't bend soft bullets (as sometimes happens with a conventional sizer) and will definitely do critically accurate work with rifles (as well as pistols).

Note: I believe Ranch Dog is getting back into business. Check out his web site.

Dale53

[JohndeFresno]

Tips and information are just what I needed. Thanks, Dale53.

[Dale53]

JOhndeFresco;
You might want to look at this:

http://www.castpics.net/

Look for the article: "Pan Lubing, a Piece of Cake" that I authored some time ago for the Single Shot Rifle Journal.

Dale53

[Fugowii]

Here are the three boolits that I am most interested in casting, for starters:
1) Marlin 336 .30-30
.310 or .311 173 gr. Lyman 311041 FP-GC
Running 1700-1800 fps; I uses a few different powders
I really would like to get the Ranch Dog .311 160?/165? grainer,
but I blew it and waited too long to decide that I wanted to cast;
it looks like Ranch Dog is all played out. Well, he made a lot of folks
happy while he was in the game.



I have the Ranch Dog mould TLC323-170-RF unused. It's yours for $40 which
includes shipping. I was going to cast with it and then decided to go another route.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/Ranch_Dog_Molds/Marlin%20Leverguns/Gas%20Checked%20Bullets/TLC323-170-RF/Bullet/slides/TLC323170RF_Bullet_Sketch_Updated_0811.html

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/Ranch_Dog_Molds/Marlin%20Leverguns/Gas%20Checked%20Bullets/TLC323-170-RF/Cartridge/slides/TLC323170RF_Cartridge.html

[JohndeFresno]

I have the Ranch Dog mould TLC323-170-RF unused. It's yours for $40 which
includes shipping. I was going to cast with it and then decided to go another route.

Fugowii, I neglected to set up my "thread notification" and have just now seen this reply; I have not yet had the chance to start casting, so I have not been a very frequent visitor or poster at this forum. Do you still have that Ranch Dog for sale?

[Wayne Smith]

To answer a question posted earlier, yes, the Coleman Propane stoves have adequate energy to melt lead. I've used an old two burner stove my dad had until it started leaking and two years ago bought a new one burner stove - very stable and capable. I switched to a 20 gal tank years ago, refill it about every two years. I've never used a bottom pour pot, I ladle cast everything off the Coleman stove and an RCBS cast iron pot, I have my pure lead in an old 1qt SS kitchen pot and my 50/50 in a similar one.